Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10)

[Luke Avedon]

Thank you for the help with understanding the Sutta Jeffrey.  I am only now approaching them so I often get confused.  I guess the key problem is taking the sutta alone out of context.   I am biased because vipassana practice as-dry vipassana practice always struck me as wrong even before I ever meditated--not sure why. 

What do you think "unworldly pain" is referring to? Dukkah?  Sorry to get off on such a tangent.

Regarding the OBEs---very interesting comments everyone. 

Kimo,

I always do the check of holding my nose and if I can breath through it held I know I am dreaming.  It has always worked.  Looking for the dream signs as Valdy suggests has also been helpful.

A question? I've been trying to stabilize dream states and/or the occasional
OBE by locating books, and/or magazines, ect. within dream states.
I've been told if you open the book, you will not find words, rather you will
find unintelligible squiggles?  A reality/dream check?

Well, I would be quite disturbed if text didn't appear in OBE's this would convince me that the state was just hallucinated.  If I mastered the state myself I would be quite keen on proving that it was in fact a real out of body experience.  Checking the license plates on the cars outside then comparing them when I woke up perhaps? or placing a playing card (without looking at it) on top of a bookshelf examining it in the OBE state and then checking it when I awoke?---or have someone else help me to be double blind as it were. 

Similar to this Charles Tart's famous experiment..but I'm told his controls were not very good.

Anyway, I had another question I wanted to bring up as well.

Jeffrey, when do you recommend folks start training to meditate and stay conscious through there sleep cycle instead of just dozing off?

I find now when I meditate on lying down on a flat back I have no danger of falling unconscious anymore.  Strangely, I find I get quite restless, it's more of an issue meditating lying down than when seated.  However, I think I'm not that far away in my meditation to be able to lie down and meditate for quite awhile.

I assume practicing this way would cause a few nights of insomnia until my mind found some sort of balance.

As interested as I am in exploring these sleeping states, what excites me more is the possibility of continuing to develop samadhi while the body sleeps.

While it's important to be well rested, one thing I have found is that when I wake up in the morning I have wiped out about 2/3rds of the stillness of my mind. 

For example, I am practicing about 3 hours a day now, yet it takes me two hours of meditation to just get back to the beautiful clear mind I had at the end of the previous day.  Most annoying.

Any thoughts?

[Jhanananda]

Yes it seems the Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) is the only one the Vipassana people like to look at.  However, I argue it does indeed refer to jhana, although you are correct reasonable people could interpret it as not.

That must be some Vipassana people, because the Goenka vipassana group definitely refer to the anapana sati sutta MN118 as well.  Well, I would not agree that reasonable people would not see the references to jhana in these 2 suttas, but mainstream, orthodox, fundamentalist types, who could not see the nose on their face if someone did not point it out to them, and who subscribed to a deeply flawed interpretation of Buddhism, will not see jhana, where it is even clearly stated that it is the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path.  To these people they translate jhana as 'concentration.'

When feeling a wordly pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel a worldly pleasant feeling'; when feeling an unworldly pleasant feeling he understands: 'I feel an unworldly pleasant feeling'

MN 10.32
I interrpurt unworldly pleasant feeling as Jhana.  However, he does talk about "unworldly painful feelings" so perhaps I am wrong.

It is possible that "unworldly pleasant feeling" is a reference to jhana, and the unworldly painful feelings" is dhukkha.  I just searched for the phrase in 6 translations of this sutta and did not find it, so it is one translators version.  If you give me the stanza number then I can look at the Pali.  You can examine other translations of the suttas at this URL:
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Majjhimaindex.html

Rereading the sutta I may have been to harsh as it certainly could be interpreted as a system of practice.

The only reason why vipassana appears to be a system of practice in the suttas is because of the translator's bias.  IN most cases the term vipassana is not in the Pali where it is being translated as 'vipassana' or 'insight.'  And, the phrase in question is often a reference to fruit (phala) not practice (magga).  Any translation is only as accurate as the bias used to translate it.

I just interpret sati as attention, therefore Satiphanna as the "Foundations of Attention as" -- i.e. a basket of skillful means for being more attentive day to day, the great importance of being attentive to your experiences all the time, what you start to realize as you are attentive all the time, how this base of being attentive supports the contemplative life and the practice of jhana and some techniques to help.

I completely agree, and your nuance is missed by most translators; however, I just wanted to point out that some people may take that interpretation and never do formal meditation practice, so the additional nuances (mindfulness, self-awareness, attentiveness, and meditation) must be included for clarity.

Do you have any further reading on this background to the Vishudimagga? I thought the only issue was Buddhaghosa was born into a Brahmin family, which isn't a crime on it's own.  Apparently I do not know the story.

My favorite part of the Vishudimagga is where Buddhaghosa claims this will only work for 1 in a million contemplatives.  This is some how supposed to be a boast of how great the Vishudimagga is.  When in fact it is advertising it's ineffectiveness as a meditation system if it will only work for 1 in a million people.  The Buddha certainly didn't have a million followers yet he trained many arahats.

At this time I do not have any further reading on the topic of the origins of the Vishudimagga and the history of Buddhaghosa.  I have been searching for it. If I recall there was an article written on it by Vagiry Story published in one of the Vipassana journals.  If you track more info down, then please send it here.

[Luke Avedon]

Hi Jeffrey,

Thanks for some more insight on MN 10.

Wow, I had not come across your index of translations--that is a fantastic resource.

The reference to unworldly painful feeling is paragraph 32 under the section (Contemplation Of Feeling)

I was referring to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, which I believe is not available for free online.  However, here is the paragraph in question:

"And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu abide contemplating feelings as feelings? Here, when feeling a pleasant feeling, a bhikkhu understands: 'I feel a pleasant feeling'; when feeling a painful feeling, he understands: 'I feel a painful feeling'; when feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.'  When feeling a worldly pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel a worldly pleasant feeling'; when feeling an unworldly pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel an unworldly pleasant feeling'; when feeling a worldly painful feeling, he understands: 'I feel a worldly painful feeling'; when feeling an unworldly painful feeling, he understands: 'I feel an unworldly painful feeling'; when feeling a worldly neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling'; when feeling an unworldly neither neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel an unworldly neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.'

--Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi Majjhima Nikaya, 4th edition (2009)

Here is Thannissaro Bhikkhu's translation, which seems reasonable:

"When feeling a painful feeling of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a painful feeling of the flesh. When feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh. When feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh. When feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh. When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh. When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh.

I saw a lecture by Bhante Vimalaramsi using Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation where he talks about the unworldly pleasant feeling being Jhana, but I don't think he spoke of what the unworldly painful feeling would be.

[Jhanananda]

Hi Jeffrey,

Thanks for some more insight on MN 10.

Wow, I had not come across your index of translations--that is a fantastic resource.

You are welcome

The reference to unworldly painful feeling is paragraph 32 under the section (Contemplation Of Feeling)

I was referring to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, which I believe is not available for free online.  However, here is the paragraph in question:

"And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu abide contemplating feelings as feelings? Here, when feeling a pleasant feeling, a bhikkhu understands: 'I feel a pleasant feeling'; when feeling a painful feeling, he understands: 'I feel a painful feeling'; when feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.'  When feeling a worldly pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel a worldly pleasant feeling'; when feeling an unworldly pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel an unworldly pleasant feeling'; when feeling a worldly painful feeling, he understands: 'I feel a worldly painful feeling'; when feeling an unworldly painful feeling, he understands: 'I feel an unworldly painful feeling'; when feeling a worldly neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling'; when feeling an unworldly neither neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel an unworldly neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.'

--Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi Majjhima Nikaya, 4th edition (2009)

Here is Thannissaro Bhikkhu's translation, which seems reasonable:

"When feeling a painful feeling of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a painful feeling of the flesh. When feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh. When feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh. When feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh. When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh. When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns that he is feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh.

Here are more translations of the same stanza for us to examine.

the Pali
(2. Vedan� nupassan� satipaññh� naü:)

Katha¤ca bhikkhave bhikkhu vedan� su vedan� nupassã viharati?

1. Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu sukhaü vedanaü vediyam� no 'sukhaü vedanaü vediy� mã'ti paj� n� ti. Dukkhaü vedanaü vediyam� no 'dukkhaü vedanaü vediy� mã'ti paj� n� ti. Adukkhamasukhaü vedanaü vediyam� no 'adukkhamasukhaü vedanaü vediy� mã'ti paj� n� ti. S� misaü v�  sukhaü vedanaü vediyam� no 's� misaü sukhaü vedanaü vediy� mã'ti paj� n� ti. Nir� misaü v�  sukhaü vedanaü vediyam� no 'nir� misaü sukhaü vedanaü vediy� mã'ti paj� n� ti. S� misaü v�  dukkhaü vedanaü vediyam� no 's� misaü dukkhaü vedanaü vediy� mã'ti paj� n� ti. Nir� misaü v�  dukkhaü vedanaü vediyam� no 'nir� misaü dukkhaü vedanaü vediy� mã'ti paj� n� ti. S� misaü v�  adukkhamasukhaü vedanaü vediyam� no 's� mãsaü adukkhamasukhaü vedanaü vediy� mã'ti paj� n� ti. Nir� misaü v�  adukkhamasukhaü vedanaü vediyam� no 'nir� misaü adukkhamasukhaü vedanaü vediy� mã'ti paj� n� ti. (1-9)

Iti ajjhattaü v�  vedan� su vedan� nupassã viharati. Bahiddh�  v�  vedan� su vedan� nupassã viharati. Ajjhattabahiddh�  v�  vedan� su vedan� nupassã viharati. Samudayadhamm� nupassã v�  vedan� su viharati. Vayadhamm� nupassã v�  vedan� su viharati. Samudayavayadhamm� nupassã v�  vedan� su viharati. Atthi vedan� ti v�  panassa sati paccupaññhit�  hoti y� vadeva ¤� õamatt� ya patissatimatt� ya. Anissito ca viharati. Na ca ki¤ci loke up� diyati.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/010-satipatthana-p.htm

ßBhikkhus, how does the bhikkhu abide reflecting the feeling in feelings?

ßHere, the bhikkhu, feeling a pleasant feeling, knows, `I feel a pleasant feeling.' Feeling an unpleasant feeling, knows, `I feel an unpleasant feeling.' Feeling a neither unpleasant nor pleasant feeling knows, `I feel a neither unpleasant nor a pleasant feeling.' Feeling a pleasant material feeling, knows `I feel a pleasant material feeling.' Feeling a pleasant immaterial feeling knows, `I feel a pleasant immaterial feeling.' Feeling an unpleasant material feeling, knows `I feel an unpleasant material feeling.' Feeling an unpleasant immaterial feeling, knows `I feel an unpleasant immaterial feeling.' Feeling a neither unpleasant nor pleasant material feeling, knows, `I feel a neither unpleasant nor pleasanat material feeling.' Feeling a neither unpleasant nor pleasant immaterial feeling, knows `I feel a neither unpleasant nor pleasant immaterial feeling.

ßThus he abides reflecting the feeling in feelings internally. Or he abides reflecting the feeling in feelings externally. Or he abides reflecting the feeling in feelings internally and externally. Or he abides reflecting the arising of thoughts in feelings, Or he abides reflecting the fading of thoughts in feelings. Or he abides reflecting the arising and fading of thoughts in feelings. Or he establishes mindfulness, `There is a feeling,' and abides not supported on anything in the world. Thus too the bhikkhu abides reflecting the feeling in feelings.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/010-satipatthanai-sutta-e1.htm

Nyanasatta Thera.
II. The Contemplation of Feeling

And how, monks, does a monk live contemplating feelings in feelings?

Herein, monks, a monk when experiencing a pleasant feeling knows, "I experience a pleasant feeling"; when experiencing a painful feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling," he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling." When experiencing a pleasant worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a pleasant worldly feeling"; when experiencing a pleasant spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a pleasant spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a painful worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a painful spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling."

Thus he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings externally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in feelings.12 Or his mindfulness is established with the thought, "Feeling exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating feelings in feelings.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/tipitaka/sutta/majjhima/mn010-nt3.html

Sotapanna Jhanananda (Jeffrey S, Brooks)
II. The Contemplation of the Senses

And how, monks, does an aspirant live contemplating the physical senses?

Herein, monks, an aspirant when experiencing a pleasant feeling knows, "I experience a pleasant feeling"; when experiencing a painful feeling, one knows, "I experience a painful feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling," one knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling." When experiencing a pleasant worldly feeling, one knows, "I experience a pleasant worldly feeling"; when experiencing a pleasant spiritual feeling (jhana-nimitta), one knows, "I experience a pleasant spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a painful worldly feeling, one knows, "I experience a painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a painful spiritual feeling, one knows, "I experience a painful spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling, one knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling, one knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling."

Thus one lives contemplating the physical senses internally (inside the body), or one lives contemplating the physical senses externally (on the surface of the body), or one lives contemplating the physical senses internally and externally. One lives contemplating origination factors in feelings, or one lives contemplating dissolution factors in feelings, or one lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in feelings.[12] Or one's awareness is established with, "Sensation exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and awareness, and one lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus, monks, an aspirant lives contemplating the physical senses.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/satipatthanasutta.htm

Soma Thera
The Contemplation of Feeling

"And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating feeling in feelings?

"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu when experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands: 'I experience a pleasant feeling'; when experiencing a painful feeling, he understands: 'I experience a painful feeling'; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, he understands: 'I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling'; when experiencing a pleasant worldly feeling, he understands: 'I experience a pleasant worldly feeling'; when experiencing a pleasant spiritual feeling, he understands: 'I experience a pleasant spiritual feeling'; when experiencing a painful worldly feeling, he understands: 'I experience a painful worldly feeling'; when experiencing a painful spiritual feeling, he understands: 'I experience a painful spiritual feeling'; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling, he understands: 'I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling'; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling, he understands: 'I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling.'

"Thus he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally, or he lives contemplating feeling in feelings externally, or he lives contemplating feeling in feelings internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in feelings, or he lives contemplating dissolution-things in feelings, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in feelings. Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'Feeling exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world.

"Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating feeling in feelings."
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/tipitaka/sutta/majjhima/mn010-st0.html

I saw a lecture by Bhante Vimalaramsi using Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation where he talks about the unworldly pleasant feeling being Jhana, but I don't think he spoke of what the unworldly painful feeling would be.

The term 'jhana' does not appear in the Pali (see Pail above); however, the definition of jhana is there, so one who understands the dhamma will certianly understand that this is indeed a reference to jhana.

[Jhanananda]

Luke, I finally dug my Pali dictionaries out of storage to look up a few terms I was not comfortable with.  In the process I have retranslated the stanza in question, and I have included key Pali terms, for those who want clarity.  Here is the translation:

II. The Contemplation of the Senses
There is the case when a seeker of Buddhahood feels a joyful (sukha) feeling (vedana) that person knows, “I am feeling a joyful feeling.”
When feeling anxiety (dhukkha), that person knows, “I am experiencing an anxious feeling.”
When feeling nethier anxiety nor unhappiness (adukkhamasukha), that person knows, “I am feeling nethier anxietious nor unhappy (adukkhamasukha).”
When feeling sensual desire (Sàmisa và sukha) knows, “I am feeling sensual desire.”
When feeling without sensual desire (Niràmisaü và sukha) knows, “I am feeling without sensual desire.”
When feeling worldly anxiety (Sàmisa và dukkha) that person knows, “I am feeling worldly anxiety.”
When feeling without worldly anxiety (Niràmisaü và dukkhaü) that person knows, “I am feeling without worldly anxiety.”
When feeling worldly feelings that are nethier anxious nor unhappy (adukkhamasukha), that person knows, “I am feeling worldly feelings that are nethier anxious nor unhappy.”
When feeling without worldly feelings that are nethier anxious nor unhappy (adukkhamasukha), that person knows, “I am feeling without worldly feelings that are nethier anxious nor unhappy.”
Translated from the Pali by Arahatta Jhananda

[Luke Avedon]

Hi Jeffrey,

Thank you so much for going to that extra trouble.  It certainly makes a lot more sense to me now.  I am still not completely clear if you recommend the steps in Satipatthana Sutta as specific practices to do, or do you find that samadhi/jhana basically takes care of everything?

Thanks again.

Best, Luke

[Luke Avedon]

Hi Jeffrey,  I think you may have touched on the answer here briefly at around the 2 minute 10 second mark.  http://youtu.be/WjzLJjVEvQY?t=2m10s 

--Luke

[Jhanananda]

Hi Jeffrey,

Thank you so much for going to that extra trouble.  It certainly makes a lot more sense to me now.  I am still not completely clear if you recommend the steps in Satipatthana Sutta as specific practices to do, or do you find that samadhi/jhana basically takes care of everything?

Thanks again.

Best, Luke

To me, Satipatthana is a series of mindfulness training exercises that build self-awareness, and the stanza that we have been discussing is a good example of that.  I found self-awareness to be a critical component to my contemplative life, so that is why I use it to define the contemplative life. And, conversely I see those who claim to practice meditation, who never seem to experience jhana are those who do not develop self-awareness.

Hi Jeffrey,  I think you may have touched on the answer here briefly at around the 2 minute 10 second mark.  http://youtu.be/WjzLJjVEvQY?t=2m10s 

--Luke

Yes, that video is all about translator bias.  All translations have a bias.  We want the translator to have the same bias as the original document.  All religions scew the translation of their religious literature to fit their doctrine. However, we find in every case the doctrine every mainstream religions is 180° off from the original intent of their own religious literature.  So, why is that?  Because:
1) All religions are run by priests who do not understand the original message.
2) People do not like the original message of the mystics who founded their religion, so they fund those who corrupt their religion the way they want it corrupted.

[Luke Avedon]

Thanks Jeffrey,

2) People do not like the original message of the mystics who founded their religion, so they fund those who corrupt their religion they way they want it corrupted.

Yes, one will go to heaven instead of being reborn and/or no need to be a contemplative as long as you believe in a god that will take care of you seem to be common changes in these traditions over time.

[Jhanananda]

You got it Luke