Spiritual Crisis, Sleep Disturbance, Lucid Dreaming and the Non-Material Realms

[Michael Hawkins]

Hello dear friend and mentor Jeffrey,

I wanted to run something by you, and to share our dialogue in hopes that others may benefit.

For a good many years now, I've been a little disappointed in myself, in that, despite all these hours and hours of meditation -- getting up before dawn, finding time at midday, then coasting off to sleep each night -- that I've experienced only very brief and sporadic nighttime meditation phenomena.  I have felt somewhat hypocritical about this -- if I am one of your longest-running meditation students going back to 2002 or so, it seems like I should be surfing the non-material planes each and every night, and this has not been the case.  Granted, I've not kept a dream journal, and I've not followed through on some other instructions for invoking the non-material planes -- but, on the other hand, I HAVE gone into fairly deep material jhana states on the way into sleep, and I wake up each morning in deep saturation.  To date, however, my experiences with the non-material planes have come in the context of retreat, with only the occasional dream lucidity that is carried back into waking life.

Over the past month, however, I perceive that something is changing.

I've always been a very, very deep sleeper.  For 49 years, I could count on falling asleep almost immediately after hitting the pillow, and (aside from having to pee once in a while) waking up six or seven hours later, ready for another day.

Recently, however, I've been falling straight into exhausted and deep sleep at about ten o'clock... only to wake up a couple hours later, thinking that it is five or six o'clock, when in reality it is midnight or twelve-thirty.  Oftentimes I'm unable to get back to sleep -- the kundalini is roaring, and the body is simply not interested in going back to sleep.  There have been a few nights when I literally could not get back to sleep, and I've had to face the following day without having rejuvenated my batteries.

I've heard your voice in my head on these nights, suggesting that I get out of bed to go meditate.  I've made this a practice -- and meditation has been very good -- although, after an hour or two of sitting there, the energy is still too intense to fall back to sleep.

Last night, I woke up at twelve-fifteen (thinking it was dawn), having been asleep a couple of hours.  I got up to pee, then saw a strong white light outside the bathroom window.  Disoriented, I figured that it was the neighbor's security light being triggered by wind or an animal.  On my way back to bed, I saw a bright light shining into the yoga room, where Karen hangs out.  I actually thought it was a cop or robber, so I went into the yoga room with the intention of peeking out the window to see who was out there. As I stepped into the room, Karen said, "Are you okay?"  Turns out that she'd been shining her headlamp at me, thinking she was helping me not to run into things in the dark.  I told her that I thought it was morning, and she told me what time it was -- she was meditating just before going to bed, as it turns out.

I was able to drop back into a sleep state... but this morning, it strikes me that the quality of sleep I'm getting these days is different than before.  After the initial drop off into deep sleep, I am regularly waking up and either not being able to sleep again, or I just sort of skim the surface of sleep for hours at a time. This is happening more and more frequently.  Rather than pathologize what's happening, however, I intuitively understand that my being is more prepared than ever for working on the non-material planes.  I'm using this "skimming" time to explore the in-between states.  I've not really accomplished any level of mastery -- but it feels like there is an opening that was not there before.

Also, during waking life, I am more and more drawn into various samadhi states -- I find myself closing my eyes, feeling intense kundalini coursing through my body, and surrendering to it.  More and more, I'm feeling as though I'm more IN meditation than out.

Given the transformation that is going on in me, I would very much appreciate any feedback and/or instruction that you'd be willing to provide, Jeffrey.  I feel as though my worldly ambitions are more dissolved than ever, and that surrender is more complete than ever -- there is no going back.

[Jhanananda]

Hello dear friend and mentor Jeffrey,

I wanted to run something by you, and to share our dialogue in hopes that others may benefit.

It is always excellent to receive a message from you on this forum, because you meditate more consistently to a deeper level than anyone I have met, so any post by you on this forum will help countless others.

For a good many years now, I've been a little disappointed in myself, in that, despite all these hours and hours of meditation -- getting up before dawn, finding time at midday, then coasting off to sleep each night -- that I've experienced only very brief and sporadic nighttime meditation phenomena.  I have felt somewhat hypocritical about this -- if I am one of your longest-running meditation students going back to 2002 or so, it seems like I should be surfing the non-material planes each and every night, and this has not been the case. 

Well, you should not be so hard on yourself, because it is the 4 jhanas that are more important than the 4 ayatanas (immaterial attainments).  However, I can understand why someone, who wants enlightenment in this very lifetime, will want the full Monte.  I did, and I got it, so I can understand why you want it to. 

The key here, is every stage of the religious experience requires letting go at ever deeper levels.  So, the real question for you to answer is, where are you holding on?  Whatever it is that you are holding onto, is holding you back.

Granted, I've not kept a dream journal, and I've not followed through on some other instructions for invoking the non-material planes -- but, on the other hand, I HAVE gone into fairly deep material jhana states on the way into sleep, and I wake up each morning in deep saturation. 

There are three key components to my attainment of lucidity throughout the night starting in 1974 and continuing to the present.  They are:
1) Maintaining a daily meditation practice
2) Keeping a dream journal
3) Sleeping under the stars.

Daily meditation practice
I started a daily meditation practice sometime in the fall of 1973.

Dream Journal
I started keeping a dream journal around the winter of 1973-74.  Within a few weeks of that I started having lucid dreams and within a few weeks after that I was going OOBE pretty regularly.  Eventually it was every night.  I kept that nightly dream journal going until about 10-13 years ago, when I finally made it through all 8 stages of the religious experience, before that I was not sure where I was going, but I knew that where I was going was deeper than any meditation teacher I ever met, or read.

Sleeping under the stars
I started sleeping under the stars every night sometime during the summer of 1974.  Right away my OOBEs and lucid dreaming went through the roof.  I found I was communicating with the stars on an interpersonal level.  I was studying astrology at the time, but this was a level of astrology that went way beyond western astrology has been for centuries.  By the end of that year I swore I would never sleep inside a building again.  Well, I now sleep in a box, and have done so for a long time, but where I am now is way beyond where I was then.

To date, however, my experiences with the non-material planes have come in the context of retreat, with only the occasional dream lucidity that is carried back into waking life.

Retreats definitely intensify our spiritual journey.  It used to take me a year just to integrate what took place subjectively during a 10-day retreat, and I attended at least 1 10-day retreat every year for about 30 years.

Over the past month, however, I perceive that something is changing.

I've always been a very, very deep sleeper.  For 49 years, I could count on falling asleep almost immediately after hitting the pillow, and (aside from having to pee once in a while) waking up six or seven hours later, ready for another day.

When I was a kid I slept like a log, and no one could even wake me, although I had many OOBEs and lucid dreams when I was a child.  So much so, that I was not sure which was reality.

Recently, however, I've been falling straight into exhausted and deep sleep at about ten o'clock...

What are you doing to be exhausted?  Maybe you should have at least one laying down meditation session per day late after noon.

I often lay down in meditation around midday.  Then, I go to bed around 8PM, and sleep until about 2-3AM, then get up and meditate for a few hours, then get up at 5AM to start my day.

only to wake up a couple hours later, thinking that it is five or six o'clock, when in reality it is midnight or twelve-thirty.  Oftentimes I'm unable to get back to sleep -- the kundalini is roaring, and the body is simply not interested in going back to sleep. 

This is the time to meditate for however long the kundalini is up.  You will know when you can lay down again.

There have been a few nights when I literally could not get back to sleep, and I've had to face the following day without having rejuvenated my batteries.

This is the life of the disciplined, rigorous, self-aware contemplative.  The day and night have no meaning to us.  We sleep when we are tired, meditate when the energy rises.  Night or day is meaningless to us.  I threw away my watch in 1974, and did not start wearing one again until I got an 8-5 m-f job.  I dumped the watch again in 1989 when I dumped my business. Of course it makes it hard to keep a job, or appointments without a watch and sleeping only when you are tired.

I've heard your voice in my head on these nights, suggesting that I get out of bed to go meditate.  I've made this a practice -- and meditation has been very good -- although, after an hour or two of sitting there, the energy is still too intense to fall back to sleep.

Well, if you cannot sit in meditation anymore, then stand, lay down, or walk in meditation.  I have taken many midnight walks when the energy would not let me sleep.  They were magical.

Last night, I woke up at twelve-fifteen (thinking it was dawn), having been asleep a couple of hours.  I got up to pee, then saw a strong white light outside the bathroom window.  Disoriented, I figured that it was the neighbor's security light being triggered by wind or an animal.  On my way back to bed, I saw a bright light shining into the yoga room, where Karen hangs out.  I actually thought it was a cop or robber, so I went into the yoga room with the intention of peeking out the window to see who was out there. As I stepped into the room, Karen said, "Are you okay?"  Turns out that she'd been shining her headlamp at me, thinking she was helping me not to run into things in the dark.  I told her that I thought it was morning, and she told me what time it was -- she was meditating just before going to bed, as it turns out.

I was able to drop back into a sleep state... but this morning, it strikes me that the quality of sleep I'm getting these days is different than before.  After the initial drop off into deep sleep, I am regularly waking up and either not being able to sleep again, or I just sort of skim the surface of sleep for hours at a time. This is happening more and more frequently.  Rather than pathologize what's happening, however, I intuitively understand that my being is more prepared than ever for working on the non-material planes.  I'm using this "skimming" time to explore the in-between states.  I've not really accomplished any level of mastery -- but it feels like there is an opening that was not there before.

Well, you are definitely on the fringe of the immaterial domains.  It is time to just push on ahead, and/or come and do an intensive retreat  with me.  Sleeping under stars will help.

Also, during waking life, I am more and more drawn into various samadhi states -- I find myself closing my eyes, feeling intense kundalini coursing through my body, and surrendering to it.  More and more, I'm feeling as though I'm more IN meditation than out.

This is good.  You are definitely on the final round.  When you get through this you will be a full-blown meditation master.

Given the transformation that is going on in me, I would very much appreciate any feedback and/or instruction that you'd be willing to provide, Jeffrey.  I feel as though my worldly ambitions are more dissolved than ever, and that surrender is more complete than ever -- there is no going back.

To finish the complete 8 stages of samadhi one has to have this attitude.  You are definitely heading down the rabbit hole. You will get there, but we should spend as much time together from now on as you can arrange.  When you come back you will no longer be Michael Hawkins, you will not even look or sound like him.

Thank-you again for sharing your deep inner practice (magga) and attainments (phala).  I have been waiting for 10 years for an inquiry at this depth. I had a good feeling about you 10 years or so ago when you first started sending me emails. People need to hear more of this from more people.  Other meditation, yoga, kundalini, and Buddhist forums are so superficial compared to this.

[Michael Hawkins]

Thank you for the feedback, Jeffrey.  At the time we found one another (2001-2002), it had been eight years since the onset of jhana nimitta.  Since the first time you explained -- via the Sutta Pitaka and other mystical teachings -- what was happening in me, I've been fortunate to have you there, encouraging and prodding when others would be saying, "Forget about it -- this is all a diversion" -- or much worse.

What are you doing to be exhausted?  Maybe you should have at least one laying down meditation session per day late after noon.

Midday meditation is the one I always most look forward to.  I do lay down for this one, and am always amazed to find that the body drops off to sleep even while consciousness is wide awake.  This meditation buys me energy for the second half of each day -- and, by eight or nine o'clock each night, I'm ready to follow the nimittas into sleep, which usually happens at or near ten.

I often lay down in meditation around midday.  Then, I go to bed around 8PM, and sleep until about 2-3AM, then get up and meditate for a few hours, then get up at 5AM to start my day.

Yes, this is the nightly routine that I've always hoped to find for myself (as per your description above -- wanting the Full Monte), but have always rationalized away due to having a "real life" to tend to with work, relationship and so forth.

It feels ironic, then, to find that a "night yoga" rhythm is asserting itself -- almost DESPITE my efforts to hold it away for as long as possible.  In some way, by affirming a strong desire to go all the way with a rigorous daily meditation practice -- which, in turn, dictates a particular lifestyle that does not concern itself so much with meeting external "obligations" -- it would only be a matter of time before the thing would manifest fully.

Just recently I had a terrible fit of self-judgment and remorse, thinking that perhaps I'd thrown my life away on inconsequential and selfish things like meditation, spiritual study and mindfulness training -- and I did get to a point where I did not see the value of continuing in this body.  At the very moment of deepest despair, however, someone close to me asked, "Who is it that suffers like this?  Is it the person named Michael who you've believed yourself to be?"  He was invoking the insight that we are more than the body, more than the drama, more than the overwhelming weight of social conditioning that has a way of wearing down our self-image.  While this is not a new concept to me, it was exactly what I needed to hear in that moment.  Then he teased me and said he'd bring rice for me to eat if I ever retire to full-time meditation in a cave.  The lesson is:  there is nothing more important for me to do in this life -- for myself or for others.

You are definitely heading down the rabbit hole. You will get there, but we should spend as much time together from now on as you can arrange.  When you come back you will no longer be Michael Hawkins, you will not even look or sound like him.

Karen and I, about a week ago, talked about the need for me to spend a couple weeks with you, at the very minimum.  Let us continue to communicate around this, and make it happen this summer (if not sooner).

Anyway, things are truly crazy inside of me these days.  All I can think to do is put one foot in front of the other, and to keep going straight ahead.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for the feedback, Jeffrey.  At the time we found one another (2001-2002), it had been eight years since the onset of jhana nimitta.  Since the first time you explained -- via the Sutta Pitaka and other mystical teachings -- what was happening in me, I've been fortunate to have you there, encouraging and prodding

I am glad we found each other, or otherwise it would be quite lonely on this planet. The internet makes it possible for the planet's mystics to find each other, if they bother with the internet at all.

when others would be saying, "Forget about it -- this is all a diversion" -- or much worse.

We know the frauds by the way they invalidate our religious experiences.
We know the frauds by the way they discourage critical thinking and teach blind faith in a simplified belief system.
We know the frauds by the way they say the progenitor and his immediate disciples were special, and we are not so special these days.
We know the frauds by the way they teach blind faith in a deeply flawed belief system.
We know the frauds by the way they depend upon a deeply flawed translation and interpretation of their progenitor's life and teachings.
We know the frauds by the way they teach one thing, and do something else.
We know the frauds by the way they are all addicted to something.
We know the frauds by the way they teach religious devotion and piety, and discourage the contemplative arts.
We know the frauds by the way they dress in special clothing, and emphasize ritual over deep silence.
We know the frauds by the way they emphasize miracles, while ignoring the facts.

Midday meditation is the one I always most look forward to.  I do lay down for this one, and am always amazed to find that the body drops off to sleep even while consciousness is wide awake.  This meditation buys me energy for the second half of each day -- and, by eight or nine o'clock each night, I'm ready to follow the nimittas into sleep, which usually happens at or near ten.

If the body drops off to sleep while you are fully conscious, then you have entered the immaterial domains.  This has occurred for me for 40 years now.

If you want to go out-of-body at that time, then just role out, or flip out, or float out, then fly superman-like to any time/space/dimension you want, if you want to explore the immaterial domains.

Yes, this is the nightly routine that I've always hoped to find for myself (as per your description above -- wanting the Full Monte), but have always rationalized away due to having a "real life" to tend to with work, relationship and so forth.

Well, as a father, I understand the pull of human responsibilities, but when you go out-of-body none of that will be relevant.  However, living the lifestyle of the mystic requires radical lifestyle changes that most people will just shake their head, and say to their friends, "Too bad Michael met that guy, Jeffrey.  He has now gone over the edge.  He is totally crazy dumpster-diving his food, and living in the wilderness, like an animal, when he could have this nice job, to buy a nice house, nice car, nice woman, etc."

It feels ironic, then, to find that a "night yoga" rhythm is asserting itself -- almost DESPITE my efforts to hold it away for as long as possible.  In some way, by affirming a strong desire to go all the way with a rigorous daily meditation practice -- which, in turn, dictates a particular lifestyle that does not concern itself so much with meeting external "obligations" -- it would only be a matter of time before the thing would manifest fully.

Mysticism, and the lifestyle to produces it, is inevitable for the mystic.  Life without the mystic's lifestyle, and the fruit it bares becomes, pointless, crazy and intolerable.

Just recently I had a terrible fit of self-judgment and remorse, thinking that perhaps I'd thrown my life away on inconsequential and selfish things like meditation, spiritual study and mindfulness training -- and I did get to a point where I did not see the value of continuing in this body.  At the very moment of deepest despair, however, someone close to me asked, "Who is it that suffers like this?  Is it the person named Michael who you've believed yourself to be?"  He was invoking the insight that we are more than the body, more than the drama, more than the overwhelming weight of social conditioning that has a way of wearing down our self-image.  While this is not a new concept to me, it was exactly what I needed to hear in that moment.  Then he teased me and said he'd bring rice for me to eat if I ever retire to full-time meditation in a cave.  The lesson is:  there is nothing more important for me to do in this life -- for myself or for others.

I could not have said it better.

Karen and I, about a week ago, talked about the need for me to spend a couple weeks with you, at the very minimum.  Let us continue to communicate around this, and make it happen this summer (if not sooner).

I am here in Sedona, and you are always welcome.  I will keep working on my current fuels project until I have it finished, then I will load it onto the van, and, if you have not made it here, then I will come and get you.

Anyway, things are truly crazy inside of me these days.  All I can think to do is put one foot in front of the other, and to keep going straight ahead.

Life in the world of humans is crazy.  Going feral is sanity.  You know where to find me when you are ready to go wildman.

[Michael Hawkins]

Well, as a father, I understand the pull of human responsibilities, but when you go out-of-body none of that will be relevant.  However, living the lifestyle of the mystic requires radical lifestyle changes that most people will just shake their head, and say to their friends, "Too bad Michael met that guy, Jeffrey.  He has now gone over the edge.  He is totally crazy dumpster-diving his food, and living in the wilderness, like an animal, when he could have this nice job, to buy a nice house, nice car, nice woman, etc."

Over the past two years -- since quitting the "day job" that I'd maintained 14 years previously -- I've been amazed that life has continued without major disruption, almost as though the universe desires that my radical mystic lifestyle be taken to a new level.  At the same time, my self-identity has come under assault; ego kicks and screams; emotions lash out; bottoming-out seems just beyond reach.  There is suffering and dissatisfaction here... but in this place, bliss, joy and ecstasy are always available, always insisting on my attention.  Life truly is the best guru....

[Jhanananda]

A psychiatrist would dismiss everything that you and I have gone through to experience bliss, joy and ecstasy in every moment, as nothing more than cultivating spiritual psychosis. 

The ego will rebel, because it is being diminished by everything that the disciplined, rigorous, self-aware contemplative does to become a mystic.  Eventually the body and the identity settle down to become servants of the self-aware mystic.  In between time, the transformation is not pretty. Because, the ego has to learn to let go.

[Michael Hawkins]

The ego will rebel, because it is being diminished by everything that the disciplined, rigorous, self-aware contemplative does to become a mystic.  Eventually the body and the identity settle down to become servants of the self-aware mystic.  In between time, the transformation is not pretty. Because, the ego has to learn to let go.

Yes.

I'm getting that, when it all comes down to it, any particular self-identity we adopt -- for whatever reason -- is bound to fall short of any ultimate truth about ourselves.  The ego is fully-invested in our unquestioning belief in our self-identity.  The self-aware mystic, however, is concerned with addressing each and every moment without reference to the time stream moving from past to future -- it is concerned with regarding bliss, joy and ecstasy as manifestations of truth, which provides intuitive insight on a moment-to-moment basis.  In letting go of the ego, the self-aware mystic focuses all attention on the moment-to-moment expression of bliss, joy and ecstasy that holds the key to the only truth there is -- even when we're not able to perfectly express in words what that may be.  Coming to a place of trusting in this way of life -- this is the practice, this is the calling.

[Jhanananda]

Yes.

I'm getting that, when it all comes down to it, any particular self-identity we adopt -- for whatever reason -- is bound to fall short of any ultimate truth about ourselves.  The ego is fully-invested in our unquestioning belief in our self-identity.  The self-aware mystic, however, is concerned with addressing each and every moment without reference to the time stream moving from past to future -- it is concerned with regarding bliss, joy and ecstasy as manifestations of truth, which provides intuitive insight on a moment-to-moment basis.  In letting go of the ego, the self-aware mystic focuses all attention on the moment-to-moment expression of bliss, joy and ecstasy that holds the key to the only truth there is -- even when we're not able to perfectly express in words what that may be.  Coming to a place of trusting in this way of life -- this is the practice, this is the calling.

This is the truth that I have come to live by.

[Cybermonk]

Aloha to you Michael,

Thank you for posting here, what you could have written in an email to
Jeffrey. I constantly compare my journey to others, looking for clues to
the path which leads to "being all I can be". Nothing fancy!

I can tell you what I've found, perhaps you can/cannot use the data.
I too "twist on the stick", an african torture, of wanting to use the
immaterial realities to accent my journey and it vexes me not being able
to go OBE when I want to. Yes... I've studied/trained many styles of OBE
activation, none of which produce a solid reality to work with.
So why do I continue? Like many others, I was released from my
body, just long enough to know it was really happening. I can't
dismiss it as some sort of disassociation, because I've yet to find
anything, or anyone, who can tell/show me, why I could see/experience
myself, from outside my body. How could I see myself without my
physical eyes . So it goes.

Personally... I've found the pragmatic techniques of the esoteric Tao,
to answer some of my experiences. The filling of the body with
energy, called kundalini,qui,vibration,grace,etc, seems to produce
somewhat similar symptoms, to me. Working toward stilling the
body/passions/mind, brings on this loading effect, seems to me.

So... currently, along with studying GWV's data, I'm also researching
Charles Luk's book, Taoist yoga, alchemy/immortality.
It takes an open mind to distill the data. My western awareness
screams, "get to the point", or "just say it simply", when reading
through what appears to be some kind of fiction.

However.... slowly its making sense and believe me, I've researched
the net on the Tao, for comparisons/reviews and fraudulent use.
So... from your post, here's what the chinese have found may be
something to consider.
I too awake at 11 to 1 at night, so vibrating, twisting and flopping
about, the only way I can calm down is to meditate. The Tao speaks
of this time, explaining its when the energy is perfect to work with.
How? The process is one of moving the energy around in the body.
Check it out, if you wish.

Got issues with lights showing up? The tao has a few good reasons
to explore. I know I'm using the signposts of the lights. Check it out.
There's a lot more, however... out of respect for CWV, who also
knows the way, I'll not go on and on.

Of course, I also don't accept the tao as the last word either.
This viewpoint of mine is why I interact with the eclectics on this
blog. I'm, after all, "just trying to be all I can be".

Party on Cybermonks,
Kimo

[Michael Hawkins]

Thanks, Kimo, for writing in.

One of the ironies arising from this situation is that I've not actively been seeking OOBEs, lucid dreams or any of that -- these are things I DID spend a lot of time working with in the early 90's, and they did lead to a re-awakening of the jhana nimittas, which then led me to eventually adopt a rigorous daily meditation and study practice -- but they've not been a conscious focus for my practice in many years.

My sense is that, having put in many years of practice, I've simply arrived at a stage where "night yoga" is "up" for me.  This is how it was for me in the beginning -- I wasn't looking for ecstatic phenomena of any kind, other than to achieve an OOBE in 1993-94 -- but instead, I got tingling in the third eye, sounds in my head and a long series of other phenomena that eventually led me to Jeffrey.

Since I visit at least 3rd jhana every day, and probably dip into 4th jhana several times each month, it's possible that I've reached some level of inner transformation wherein my being is ready to move on to a new stage of ecstatic experience -- who knows?

On the other hand, I have felt bad that the non-material planes have remained mostly beyond the bounds of my practice up until now, as I've had it in my mind that experience in the arupa realms is somehow required of someone who claims any sort of "attainment."

For me, becoming saturated in the charisms has been the beginning and the end, and I've trusted that "something" is happening through the mechanism of ecstasy.  The recent shift in sleep patterns may be evidence that "something" is making a move of some sort.  I'll just have to keep my practice going, see what happens, and share it here with you good folks...

Blessings,
Michael

[violet]

Although I have not had OOBEs yet (as far as I know), I did read about some interesting methods for eventually getting them in Graham Nicholls' book, Navigating the Out-Of-Body Experience.

One of them is basically watching aerial footage that gives the impression of flying and weightlessness for around 30 minutes a day, in a darkened room, and really imagining that one is flying (imagining the wind in your face for example) and that one is able to leave the body. Aerial footage is easy to find on the net. Afterwards, just lying down in a bed, closing your eyes, just thinking about the images and impressions of what you have watched.

Another method was doing a physical activity that you enjoy, such as hiking, for a whole day or even a few days until it brings physical exhaustion passed what is normal for you, but that does not induce mental exhaustion, and keeping in mind that you are doing this activity for an OOBE. Afterwards, lying down in your bed, you can use a method that appeals to you to leave the body, such as visualizing. This method is not meant to be done often in my opinion, but physical activity of any kind may help the body rest. I know I sleep better after doing yoga or a workout at the gym.

[Cybermonk]

Aloha to you Violet and Michael,

Here's a group working with practical techniques to browse.
http://obe4u.com/

It seems most phenomena experienced with entering the
OBE state, is the same as our usual going to sleep, ie,
sleep paralysis, rushing noise and so on. Could it be we
all subconsciously enter the non material domain every
night? Ha!

Its interesting Michael that the sleep changes, usually
less sleep, is mentioned in the book I offered by Luk. Apparently,
it  is an indication of when a being has completed the
so called "foundation" work and is ready for the more
challenging, also dangerous work, of creating a light
body.

Why create a light body, sometimes known as "rainbow
body", "jalus" and others? Well... I am now of the
mind that when we die, our being, which leaves the
body, is pure awareness. If so... interacting with existence
is limited to just pure awareness. I suspicion this because
my OBE experience was just that, pure awareness only.

So... it seems the tao folks and others, want the light
body to interact with things, like perhaps some sages of
the past supposedly could do.

However... as fascinating as all this may be, its all still
the dream/maya, ect. What keeps popping up for me
is the thought;
Ok.. your an immortal being, now what? Does blissing
out quench curiosity? I doubt it.

Are we having fun yet?
Kimo 

[violet]

Thank you Kimo, I like your perspective on things.

[Jhanananda]

Thanks, Kimo, for writing in.

One of the ironies arising from this situation is that I've not actively been seeking OOBEs, lucid dreams or any of that -- these are things I DID spend a lot of time working with in the early 90's, and they did lead to a re-awakening of the jhana nimittas, which then led me to eventually adopt a rigorous daily meditation and study practice -- but they've not been a conscious focus for my practice in many years.

The charisms of the 4 jhanas become so engaging for the disciplined, rigorous, self-aware contemplative, that they lose interest in all else.  These charisms (jhana-nimitta) are so utterly fulfilling in themselves, that our craving (tanha) becomes extinguished.  Our craving (tanha) for the 7-deady sins/fetters and hindrances, falls away.  Even an interest in exploring the immaterial planes falls away.  When all of the 7-deady sins/fetters and hindrances, falls away we call that person an Arahatta.  So, it seems to be, Michael is now an Arahatta (attained the deathless).

My sense is that, having put in many years of practice, I've simply arrived at a stage where "night yoga" is "up" for me.  This is how it was for me in the beginning -- I wasn't looking for ecstatic phenomena of any kind, other than to achieve an OOBE in 1993-94 -- but instead, I got tingling in the third eye, sounds in my head and a long series of other phenomena that eventually led me to Jeffrey.

Since I visit at least 3rd jhana every day, and probably dip into 4th jhana several times each month, it's possible that I've reached some level of inner transformation wherein my being is ready to move on to a new stage of ecstatic experience -- who knows?

On the other hand, I have felt bad that the non-material planes have remained mostly beyond the bounds of my practice up until now, as I've had it in my mind that experience in the arupa realms is somehow required of someone who claims any sort of "attainment."

For me, becoming saturated in the charisms has been the beginning and the end, and I've trusted that "something" is happening through the mechanism of ecstasy.  The recent shift in sleep patterns may be evidence that "something" is making a move of some sort.  I'll just have to keep my practice going, see what happens, and share it here with you good folks...

Blessings,
Michael

That "something is happening through the mechanism of ecstasy" is the complete extinguishment of your craving (tanha) in utter and complete fulfillment, which comes from saturation in the charims of the 4 jhanas.  As long as you remain saturated in the charisms 24-7, you will be an Arahatta. Welcome Michael, you are now beyond training (aseka).  Go forth and teach, if you are so inclined.  If the world does not value your teaching sufficiently to provide you with food, clothing and shelter, then come and meditate with me in the wilderness until our body starves, and it is covered over with sediments.

[Michael Hawkins]

So, it seems to be, Michael is now an Arahatta (attained the deathless).

Not so fast, Jeffrey! 

While it's true that saturation in the first four jhanas has taken hold, I wouldn't say that ALL cravings have been eroded.  I would say, rather, that I'm in that period of time when, as cravings dissolve, there is a LOT of emotional work being done -- a LOT of confusion, a LOT of disorientation, a LOT of difficulty navigating the world without reference to a solid self-identity.  My root, operating beliefs about reality are smacking up against an impenetrable wall, and rather than just get replaced by a new set of operating beliefs, I seem to be floating in suspended animation, unable (or too fearful?) to push beyond what feels like a checkmate.

I've reached a crisis point, in other words, and I'm getting that there is more work to be done in order to truly be able to let go of whatever I'm clinging to -- clinging with a death grip.

Perhaps the periodic sleep disruptions are part of the letting go process.  Perhaps things are falling apart in every nook and cranny of my being, including the sleep domains, as a way of showing the "real ME" that there is a valid way to proceed without reference to a solid self-identity.

I feel like I'm having to learn how to walk all over again.