Manomaya

[Jhanananda]

Please note friends that I split this off of Michel's Greetings to all fellow contemplatives, and placed it within the subsection of this forum that is dedicated to discussion on the immaterial domains and how to get there.

Thank-you aglorincz, Stu, Michel, PJ, Ichigo, Michael Hawkins, Sam, and others for posting your recent comments, which make this forum dynamic and inspiring to seekers everywhere.

Jhananda is obviously much farther down the road than I am, but this is really what we're discussing here requires.

Your whole world must come crashing down. The cites you've built have to be set on fire. Your house which you've lived in your whole life - like in the stories of Gilgamesh and Noah - must be torn down so you have the material with which you can build the 'ark' (that is, if you'd like to survive the 'flood').

While most people think they can have their "cake and eat it too" being arm-chair contemplatives; nonetheless I agree with aglorincz that the journey to liberation and enlightenment often requires completely deconstructing our life.  We must unpack all of our belief systems, which frequently requires tossing out preciously held beliefs, lifestyle choices and behaviors.  This is what I mean when I use the term 'rigorous.'  We must be rigorous in our daily meditation practice, as well as in our use of critical thinking in investigating philosophy.

It may not be accessible to some people, but I tried to explain why I think the crises are essential in this post here:

The Dark Night builds the Immaterial Body

Basically, I would argue that the different crises facilitate the construction of a 'spiritual body.' (Obviously, for a modern person who does not believe in the non-material, this is a hard sell.) But, the way I understand it, is this spiritual body is still made up out of 'matter.' But, the 'matter' of this body is the same 'matter' that constitutes the superior worlds. So to us, we cannot see it/feel it/experience it, or fathom the 'matter' which constitutes it.

We have been discussing your premise here several times, while I believe it holds some merit, it has some deep flaws as well, as discussed on the other thread.  Now, you are proposing that the spirit body (dharma-kaya) has mass.  I find many New Agers and New Age pseudo physicists speculating about the same thing. 

The problem here is, if the spirit/soul and the various charismatic phenomena are electromagnetic, then the soul has mass, which numerous implications, such as:

1) It would mean that we could encase someone in a lead coffin before they die and thus capture their soul for ever in that lead tomb, which is not true.
2) We could attract souls, angels, or demons by using an antenna.
3) When we travel out-of-body, then we would be limited to the speed of light, which means it would take a long time to travel just to the moon, planets, sun, stars and galaxies; whereas, I have traveled OOBE to the moon, planets, sun, stars and galaxies instantly.
4) When we travel to massive objects, with tremendous gravity, such as: the sun, the center of the galaxy, black holes, etc, then we could be trapped by their intense gravitational field and be stuck, which is not true, because I have traveled to those places while in an OOBE, and their gravitational fields had no effect upon my ability to move about, and return here instantaneously. 

So, I have had to conclude that spirit/soul and the various charismatic phenomena are NOT electromagnetic.

Again I am not saying this conclusively but I would argue that this body can have 3 levels of refinement, which incidentally correspond with the 3 highest noble persons:

refinement 1 (jhana 1) - possessed by the once-returner - someone who has gone through the first dark night - after death is reincarnated? with some continuity of former consciousness (unlike laypersons)

refinement 2 (jhana 2) - possessed by the non-returner - after death is reborn in superior worlds

refinement 3 (jhanas 3+) - possessed by the arahant - someone who has gone through the second dark night - after death reborn ?? a completely unintelligible state of being/mahasamadhi

The Theosophical Society had a similar belief system.  Since Madam Blavatsky was from Russia, and Buddhism existed in Russia up until the Russian Revolution, then it is reasonable that she got this idea from Mongolian Buddhism, which is the same as Tibetan Buddhism.

I can see how the belief in 3 stages of consciousness, or spiritual development through the stages of: gross (material), astral, and causal comes about; however, once you get to the causal level at the 8th stage of samadhi, then you will see there really is not 3 bodies, but one consciousness evolving, or moving, through the immaterial domains. 

The immaterial domains are a little bit like an onion in which there are countless layers.  When one gains facility there, then one can travel through those layers effortlessly; whereas, those who are caught in the layers cannot move out of them. The obstacle; however, is one of consciousness only; not one of mass or gravity, although it might feel like that when one is caught in the layers of the immaterial domains.

I am a bit curious about your epistemology. Is this premise of subtle body development that you are advancing your own, or coming from Tibetan Buddhism, or Theosophy, or Orthodox Christianity, or some place else?  As an anthropologist/philosopher it would be interesting to unpack this philosophy and examine its history and movement.

[Alexander]

We have been discussing your premise here several times, while I believe it holds some merit, it has some deep flaws as well, as discussed on the other thread.  Now, you are proposing that the spirit body (dharma-kaya) has mass.  I find many New Agers and New Age pseudo physicists speculating about the same thing. 

The problem here is, if the spirit/soul and the various charismatic phenomena are electromagnetic, then the soul has mass, which numerous implications, such as:

1) It would mean that we could encase someone in a lead coffin before they die and thus capture their soul for ever in that lead tomb, which is not true.
2) We could attract souls, angels, or demons by using an antenna.
3) When we travel out-of-body, then we would be limited to the speed of light, which means it would take a long time to travel just to the moon, planets, sun, stars and galaxies; whereas, I have traveled OOBE to the moon, planets, sun, stars and galaxies instantly.
4) When we travel to massive objects, with tremendous gravity, such as: the sun, the center of the galaxy, black holes, etc, then we could be trapped by their intense gravitational field and be stuck, which is not true, because I have traveled to those places while in an OOBE, and their gravitational fields had no effect upon my ability to move about, and return here instantaneously. 

So, I have had to conclude that spirit/soul and the various charismatic phenomena are NOT electromagnetic.

I agree with your points here, as I would not say that the 'manomaya' has mass. As you can tell, I am struggling to explain what exactly the 'mind-made body' is; but I think we should try to understand it, as otherwise we have trouble explaining why we're able to have OOBEs at all.

This clip from Carl Sagan's Cosmos relates to what I'm trying to explore here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0

OK. Let's pretend that we have 2 worlds. We have our world which we will call world 1, and another 'world' which we will call world 2.



For us, our world consists of everything we can experience. Everything we can encounter with the 5 senses.

However, there is also this 'other' world, which we have no experience of. Apparently (if there are beings there), they exist with a group of senses which are entirely other than the 5 which we have.

Now let us say that we have objects which exist in each of these worlds. In world 1, 'a' exists. In world 2, 'b' exists:



Now let us say we have a man who lives in world 1. For him, 'a' exists. It could be a chair. It is experienceable by his senses and is real. But he cannot experience 'b'. Therefore, he will conclude that 'b' does not exist. Even if, according to the beings of world 2, 'b' does exist.

Now let's take this a step further. And reduce objects 'a' and 'b' down into simply being 'matter':

In world 1, 'a' is made out of atoms.

In world 2, 'b' is made out of (a very different kind) of 'atoms.'

Thus, both objects 'a' and 'b' are 'material'; but, for someone living in world 1, 'a' exists but 'b' does not exist. This is because 'b' cannot be experienced with the 5 senses.

What then would this mean for the manomaya? It would mean that it is made out of the 'matter' of 'world 2'. However, due to it existing in world 1, in most circumstances we would say that the manomaya does not exist or is not real. Even if, according to world 2, the manomaya -is- material and it does indeed exist.

[Alexander]

The Theosophical Society had a similar belief system.  Since Madam Blavatsky was from Russia, and Buddhism existed in Russia up until the Russian Revolution, then it is reasonable that she got this idea from Mongolian Buddhism, which is the same as Tibetan Buddhism.

I can see how the belief in 3 stages of consciousness, or spiritual development through the stages of: gross (material), astral, and causal comes about; however, once you get to the causal level at the 8th stage of samadhi, then you will see there really is not 3 bodies, but one consciousness evolving, or moving, through the immaterial domains. 

The immaterial domains are a little bit like an onion in which there are countless layers.  When one gains facility there, then one can travel through those layers effortlessly; whereas, those who are caught in the layers cannot move out of them. The obstacle; however, is one of consciousness only; not one of mass or gravity, although it might feel like that when one is caught in the layers of the immaterial domains.

I am a bit curious about your epistemology. Is this premise of subtle body development that you are advancing your own, or coming from Tibetan Buddhism, or Theosophy, or Orthodox Christianity, or some place else?  As an anthropologist/philosopher it would be interesting to unpack this philosophy and examine its history and movement.

The most serious of the 3 divine messengers, which the Buddha talks about as why we should live the holy life, is death. He recommends the eightfold path to us with the implication that it can indeed address this problem of our death.

In looking at the 'four noble persons,' we then find in the sutras an explanation of how the fates of noble people are different from those who do not follow the 'way':

Streamwinner - cannot be reborn in the hellish worlds
Once-returner - reborn as a human
Nonreturner - reborn in heavenly worlds
Arahant - unintelligilble state of being/transcendence

From here I have been trying to integrate these fates, with what I have learned about the manomaya and the 2 dark nights of the soul. I've also gained very vaguely from Tibetan Buddhism and Ouspensky's esotericism that there are apparently '3' levels of refinement to the manomaya. So I put the whole thing together like this:

Streamwinner (right view; starting on the path; never again reborn in the hellish worlds)
FIRST DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (manomaya's 1st level of refinement produced through this)
Once-returner (reborn as a human, with some continuity of consciousness because of the manomaya)
(Manomaya's 2nd level of refinement produced over time)
Nonreturner (reborn in the heavenly worlds)
SECOND DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (manomaya's 3rd level of refinement produced through this)
Arahant (transcendence, deathlessness)

[Jhanananda]

I agree with your points here, as I would not say that the 'manomaya' has mass. As you can tell, I am struggling to explain what exactly the 'mind-made body' is; but I think we should try to understand it, as otherwise we have trouble explaining why we're able to have OOBEs at all.

This clip from Carl Sagan's Cosmos relates to what I'm trying to explore here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0

I recall Carl Sagan's series Cosmos.  I watched the whole thing.  However, if you see another series on the mind, then you will see Carl Sagan provides the introduction for that series, and in that introduction he states something like the following, "There is no evidence for anything beyond the physical dimension." Then the series went on to prove that there was indeed something beyond the physical dimension. 

What we are dealing with in the religious experience is that other dimension; however, Carl Sagan is a flat-lander, and cannot provide more than a decent metaphor that represents the difficulty that a person, who is familiar with the spiritual dimension has, when attempting to describe it to people of the 3rd dimension.  So let us not get too hung up on our metaphors.

OK. Let's pretend that we have 2 worlds. We have our world which we will call world 1, and another 'world' which we will call world 2.



For us, our world consists of everything we can experience. Everything we can encounter with the 5 senses.

However, there is also this 'other' world, which we have no experience of. Apparently (if there are beings there), they exist with a group of senses which are entirely other than the 5 which we have.

Now let us say that we have objects which exist in each of these worlds. In world 1, 'a' exists. In world 2, 'b' exists:



Now let us say we have a man who lives in world 1. For him, 'a' exists. It could be a chair. It is experienceable by his senses and is real. But he cannot experience 'b'. Therefore, he will conclude that 'b' does not exist. Even if, according to the beings of world 2, 'b' does exist.

Now let's take this a step further. And reduce objects 'a' and 'b' down into simply being 'matter':

In world 1, 'a' is made out of atoms.

In world 2, 'b' is made out of (a very different kind) of 'atoms.'

Thus, both objects 'a' and 'b' are 'material'; but, for someone living in world 1, 'a' exists but 'b' does not exist. This is because 'b' cannot be experienced with the 5 senses.

What then would this mean for the manomaya? It would mean that it is made out of the 'matter' of 'world 2'. However, due to it existing in world 1, in most circumstances we would say that the manomaya does not exist or is not real. Even if, according to world 2, the manomaya -is- material and it does indeed exist.

Well, let us not get too caught up in the metaphors, by trying to express 4th dimensionality to 3 dimensional beings.  I have spent about 10 years attempting to do what you are trying here, because I am one who exists in both dimensions consciously.  The best thing I can do is instead of describing it, give people the tools to experience it.  This is why I do not go into great detail about the immaterial domains, because the 3rd dimension just does not have the reference points to understand it until some of those 3 dimensional beings do what is needed to leave the 3rd dimension and enter the 4th dimension.  What is needed is leading a rigorous, self-aware, ethical, contemplative life that bares the fruit of attainment.

The Theosophical Society had a similar belief system.  Since Madam Blavatsky was from Russia, and Buddhism existed in Russia up until the Russian Revolution, then it is reasonable that she got this idea from Mongolian Buddhism, which is the same as Tibetan Buddhism.

I can see how the belief in 3 stages of consciousness, or spiritual development through the stages of: gross (material), astral, and causal comes about; however, once you get to the causal level at the 8th stage of samadhi, then you will see there really is not 3 bodies, but one consciousness evolving, or moving, through the immaterial domains. 

The immaterial domains are a little bit like an onion in which there are countless layers.  When one gains facility there, then one can travel through those layers effortlessly; whereas, those who are caught in the layers cannot move out of them. The obstacle; however, is one of consciousness only; not one of mass or gravity, although it might feel like that when one is caught in the layers of the immaterial domains.

I am a bit curious about your epistemology. Is this premise of subtle body development that you are advancing your own, or coming from Tibetan Buddhism, or Theosophy, or Orthodox Christianity, or some place else?  As an anthropologist/philosopher it would be interesting to unpack this philosophy and examine its history and movement.

The most serious of the 3 divine messengers, which the Buddha talks about as why we should live the holy life, is death. He recommends the eightfold path to us with the implication that it can indeed address this problem of our death.

In looking at the 'four noble persons,' we then find in the sutras an explanation of how the fates of noble people are different from those who do not follow the 'way':

Streamwinner - cannot be reborn in the hellish worlds
Once-returner - reborn as a human
Nonreturner - reborn in heavenly worlds
Arahant - unintelligilble state of being/transcendence

From here I have been trying to integrate these fates, with what I have learned about the manomaya and the 2 dark nights of the soul. I've also gained very vaguely from Tibetan Buddhism and Ouspensky's esotericism that there are apparently '3' levels of refinement to the manomaya. So I put the whole thing together like this:

Streamwinner (right view; starting on the path; never again reborn in the hellish worlds)
FIRST DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (manomaya's 1st level of refinement produced through this)
Once-returner (reborn as a human, with some continuity of consciousness because of the manomaya)
(Manomaya's 2nd level of refinement produced over time)
Nonreturner (reborn in the heavenly worlds)
SECOND DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (manomaya's 3rd level of refinement produced through this)
Arahant (transcendence, deathlessness)

From the perspective of one who has traversed all 8 stages of samadhi, the immaterial domains are much like an onion, which means they are stratified in uncountable strata.  One with full facility in the immaterial domains can traverse all of the strata at will.  However, most of the beings in those strata cannot move "up" or "down." They can only move within the strata that they have arrived in. Whereas, Buddhas can traverse all of the levels at any time they chose.  They have no volition of their own, so they traverse those levels upon the request of beings who reside within those levels.

The "strata" of the immaterial domains is oriented toward beings who have relative levels of liberation.  So, to use your metaphor above, using the 4 stages of being, as described in the suttas, then the stream winners reside in a lower level than the once returners, and so forth. But, there are not 4 levels, but countless levels. The Buddhas can traverse all of the levels at any time they chose, because they have no cravings of any kind, which means they are fully liberated.  It is the cravings, attachments, that hold beings within a particular level of the immaterial domains.

I hope this helps.

[Alexander]

Well, let us not get too caught up in the metaphors, by try to express 4th dimensionality to 3 dimensional beings.  I have spent about 10 years attempting to do what you are trying here, because I am one who exists in both dimensions consciously.  The best thing I can do is instead of describing it, give people the tools to experience it.  This is why I do not go into great detail about the immaterial domains, because the 3rd dimension just does not have the reference points to understand it until some of those 3 dimensional beings do what is needed to leave the 3rd dimension and enter the 4th dimension.  What is needed is leading a rigorous, self-aware, ethical, contemplative life that bares the fruit of attainment.

I agree, our focus should be on exploring the practice of the 8 fold path, as the Buddha recommended, more than the metaphysics of the manomaya. However, a short foray into this subject may be very useful, as it helps our self-understanding as mystics, and gives us at least a working theory as to how OOBEs are possible.

From the perspective of one who has traversed all 8 stages of samadhi, the immaterial domains are much like an onion, which means they are stratified in uncountable strata.  One with full facility in the immaterial domains can traverse all of the strata at will.  However, most of the beings in those strata cannot move "up" or "down." They can only move within the strata that they have arrived in. Whereas, Buddhas can traverse all of the levels at any time they chose.  They have no volition of their own, so they traverse those levels upon the request of beings who reside within those levels.

The "strata" of the immaterial domains is oriented toward beings who have relative levels of liberation.  So, to use your metaphor above, using the 4 stages of being, as described in the suttas, then the stream winners reside in a lower level than the once returners, and so forth. But, there are not 4 levels, but countless levels. The Buddhas can traverse all of the levels at any time they chose, because they have no cravings of any kind, which means they are fully liberated.  It is the cravings, attachments, that hold beings within a particular level of the immaterial domains.

I hope this helps.

Well, the list here is to help explain the trajectory it takes -to becoming- a mystic, and how this can be a long, organic process that even spans several lifetimes.

I have been very interested, for example, in my own life when I meet people who are not contemplatives, but who I see clearly experiencing the first or second jhanas (which are with them all of the time). These people may not even understand that they are in the jhanas. So my explanation is saying "Well, they have been through the first dark night of the soul; that is why they experience the 1st jhana," etc.

You made an excellent chart on the jhanas which I have used as a reference for many years:

http://i.imgur.com/J29wbkw.jpg

(I am interpreting 3, hypersensitivity phase, as the second dark night of the soul, and that omitted from the chart is the first dark night of the soul, which precedes the 1st and 2nd jhanas)

Then I would conflate it with my above chart as:

1. Streamwinner (right view; starting on the path; never again reborn in the hellish worlds)
2. FIRST DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (manomaya's 1st level of refinement produced through this)
3. Once-returner (reborn as a human, with some continuity of consciousness because of the manomaya) *FIRST JHANA
4. (Manomaya's 2nd level of refinement produced over time)
5. Nonreturner (reborn in the heavenly worlds) *SECOND JHANA
6. SECOND DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (manomaya's 3rd level of refinement produced through this)
7. Arahant (transcendence, deathlessness) *THIRD JHANA+

Thus this chart would not be of the samadhis, but of the 'pre' or 'proto-' contemplative life.

[pj]

While the system you describe may be pretty, it is a view.  Consider how holding onto might be causing you to not apply appropriate attention to the present.  Consider how holding views can potentially lead to subtle clinging.  Consider whether this is relevant to the goal.   

Ive spent much time on theories such as this, but they were never entirely tenable.  Even if you happen across a perfectly true metaphysics (in this case a metaphysics of the spiritual body), you'll still have to deal with letting go. If it must be dropped eventually, then what use is it anyways?  I do not see how this concept is helpful to the path. Stick entirely with what you experience and you will progress faster.

I apologize for the overly-critical tone that the internet makes me appear to have, but I mean the above in a friendly way.

[Jhanananda]

Well, the list here is to help explain the trajectory it takes -to becoming- a mystic, and how this can be a long, organic process that even spans several lifetimes.

I have been very interested, for example, in my own life when I meet people who are not contemplatives, but who I see clearly experiencing the first or second jhanas (which are with them all of the time). These people may not even understand that they are in the jhanas. So my explanation is saying "Well, they have been through the first dark night of the soul; that is why they experience the 1st jhana," etc.

I happen to agree with PJ in part here, because theology and philosophy can all too easily get to arguing over ridiculous issues like, how many angels/devas can sit on the head of a pin.  On the other hand, what else are we going to do in between meditation sessions?  So, let us get on with it.

There are a number of problems with your chart.  First of all the OOBE (manomaya) occurs from the 5th samadhi up.  However, what is occurring for the contemplative is as they negotiate the 4 jhanas they are approaching the immaterial domains, which are experienced through the OOBE (manomaya).  Thus, to make your chart more accurate, then see below:

1. Streamwinner (right view; starting on the path; never again reborn in the hellish worlds) conviction born of the experience of the *FIRST JHANA
2. Once-returner (reborn as a human, with some continuity of consciousness) *SECOND JHANA
3. FIRST DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (1st level of refinement produced through this)
4. Nonreturner (reborn in the heavenly worlds) *THIRD JHANA
5. Arahant (liberation for the addictions/sins/fetters/hindrances) *FOURTH JHANA
6. SECOND DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (approaching manomaya)
7. Manomaya samadhi 5,6,7,8 (transcendence, deathlessness/eternal life)
8. Full liberation *BUDDHAHOOD

[Alexander]

While the system you describe may be pretty, it is a view.  Consider how holding onto might be causing you to not apply appropriate attention to the present.  Consider how holding views can potentially lead to subtle clinging.  Consider whether this is relevant to the goal.   

Ive spent much time on theories such as this, but they were never entirely tenable.  Even if you happen across a perfectly true metaphysics (in this case a metaphysics of the spiritual body), you'll still have to deal with letting go. If it must be dropped eventually, then what use is it anyways?  I do not see how this concept is helpful to the path. Stick entirely with what you experience and you will progress faster.

I apologize for the overly-critical tone that the internet makes me appear to have, but I mean the above in a friendly way.

Ah, but is not the statement you say here, 'aglorincz, you should have no views' itself a view? :P Safe to say even if I wrote a whole book on religion, as long as you keep in your personal views only poverty and possessionlessness, the dharma is secure =)

1. Streamwinner (right view; starting on the path; never again reborn in the hellish worlds) conviction born of the experience of the *FIRST JHANA
2. Once-returner (reborn as a human, with some continuity of consciousness) *SECOND JHANA
3. FIRST DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (1st level of refinement produced through this)
4. Nonreturner (reborn in the heavenly worlds) *THIRD JHANA
5. Arahant (liberation for the addictions/sins/fetters/hindrances) *FOURTH JHANA
6. SECOND DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (approaching manomaya)
7. Manomaya samadhi 5,6,7,8 (transcendence, deathlessness/eternal life)
8. Full liberation *BUDDHAHOOD

Ehh.. when I come to meet you in person eventually, we will have to discuss this. But you aren't following me at all. I am trying to explain the journey it takes -to becoming- a mystic, -prior- to experiencing any samadhis.

[Jhanananda]

Ehh.. when I come to meet you in person eventually, we will have to discuss this. But you aren't following me at all. I am trying to explain the journey it takes -to becoming- a mystic, -prior- to experiencing any samadhis.

I hope one day we shall meet.  For a more complete explanation see the recent discussion on the Noble Eightfold Path.

Well, the journey to samadhi means what one does prior to the first jhana, because the the first jhana is the first stage of samadhii, or the first stage of the religious experience.  To me the the first jhana represents stream entry. 

Prior to the first jhana/stream entry we are either a devotee or starting out on meditation practice with no attainment.  And, what often drives people to taking up a contemplative life is a spiritual crisis, which we could call the first dark night of the soul, or mid-life crisis.

[pj]

I suppose I should have qualified that it's a speculative view.  The view that letting go of views (wow that's tangled) helps to lead to peace is one that can easily be repeatedly observed.