Unpleasant Dreams and Sudden Hesitancy to Continue Rigorous Meditation

[Jhanon]

There is a tremendous amount of questions I've asked lately I apologize, but I feel they are all legitimate and worthy of asking.

Now that I am consistently hitting 2nd or 3rd jhana, does this mean I may enter the dark night soon (or already am)? I am experiencing an increase in unusual discomforts, such as mild dizziness, sudden drops in mindfulness, leg cramps, headaches, and terrifying dreams. Some of this has already been around for a while, but it seems my progress has made them either more apparent or increased in intensity. I suppose it's too late to turn back? LOL

Recently I have made efforts to meditate into 1st or 2nd jhana before falling asleep, as I think it would be great to have an OOBE that I can be certain is an OOBE. Last night I successfully entered 1st or 2nd jhana before falling asleep, but also experienced a terrifying dream where some kind of tall gargoyle like creature was chasing me and others. When I woke, I was instantly almost fully awake and aware, and I felt what appeared to be the jhana tactile and visual charisms still present.

But this dream has made me re-realize that for the last year I've had some rather frightening or unpleasant dreams, and this is what unconsciously caused me 6 months ago to stop my efforts to be aware of and remember my dreams.

What is my best course of action? I am fed up with having dreams that keep me from getting uninterrupted rest, but I also don't think having a couple shots before bed, or making efforts to be otherwise as unaware as possible before sleep is a good idea. What have some of you done to resolve this?

This has also brought to my attention something I never really bothered to consider. There was always an uncertainty if they actually existed as more than a mental exercise or what the jhana's and Path were like. I never, ever thought it would reap so many changes and fruits. But since reviewing some of Jhananda and Michael's postings, I'm suddenly a bit intimidated and hesitant to move forward. On the one hand, this is fascinating, and I seem to be pulled toward it since I was a kid. This also appears to be what I am most naturally talented at. On the other hand, it almost seems like a great burden to not know if you'll sleep all through the night because of various phenomena, or if you'll break down in tears for seemingly no reason, or see something terrifying during everyday waking life (does that happen?). I don't know what I am looking to hear, but I am tired, and need to finish this post. So far I have found it to be a great and fulfilling ride, but I am concerned at some point it will become more of a burden. I'm hoping that the benefits of the practice continue to outweigh the negatives.

[Jhanananda]

There is a tremendous amount of questions I've asked lately I apologize, but I feel they are all legitimate and worthy of asking.

Your questions and comments are stimulating dialog here, so thank-you.  It is common for people coming here to ask a lot of questions at first.  We expect it, and appreciate it.

Now that I am consistently hitting 2nd or 3rd jhana, does this mean I may enter the dark night soon (or already am)? I am experiencing an increase in unusual discomforts, such as mild dizziness, sudden drops in mindfulness, leg cramps, headaches, and terrifying dreams. Some of this has already been around for a while, but it seems my progress has made them either more apparent or increased in intensity. I suppose it's too late to turn back? LOL

Well, if any mystic started out by warning people about the spiritual crisis, then no one would listen to him or her.  More than anything mystics pick up the pieces of humpty dumpty who had a great fall because he was looking in all of the wrong places to mediate his/her anxiety.

The mild dizziness could very well be the kinesthetic charism, which typically arises at the 4th level and above. 

I frequently have leg cramps, but I do not believe there is an association with my religious experiences, so I doubt if you having them has any relationship either.  We would want to see at least 25% of mystics reporting leg cramps to make that connection. Same with headaches, except I rarely have headaches. 

On the other hand, terrifying dreams, are quite common for mystics.  Here is my explanation.  When we are in an OOBE we are in the "collective unconscious," but we are conscious.  This makes the collective very insecure, so they will often lash out at the one who is conscious.  When the contemplative develops equanimity, then the terrifying dreams will become far less, and even more importantly, they will have little effect. 

So, as you become more lucid in the dream state, then you will have more terrifying dreams.  But the more time you spend meditating at the 3rd level and above, the more equanimity you will have, so the frequency of the terrifying dreams will become less.  And, as you progress you will be less attracted to the lower immaterial realms and more attracted to the upper realms.

Recently I have made efforts to meditate into 1st or 2nd jhana before falling asleep, as I think it would be great to have an OOBE that I can be certain is an OOBE. Last night I successfully entered 1st or 2nd jhana before falling asleep, but also experienced a terrifying dream where some kind of tall gargoyle like creature was chasing me and others. When I woke, I was instantly almost fully awake and aware, and I felt what appeared to be the jhana tactile and visual charisms still present.

But this dream has made me re-realize that for the last year I've had some rather frightening or unpleasant dreams, and this is what unconsciously caused me 6 months ago to stop my efforts to be aware of and remember my dreams.

What is my best course of action? I am fed up with having dreams that keep me from getting uninterrupted rest, but I also don't think having a couple shots before bed, or making efforts to be otherwise as unaware as possible before sleep is a good idea. What have some of you done to resolve this?

When you can consistently meditate to the depth of the 4th level, then you will be able to move in and out of body at will, and you will be moving to higher dimensions, where you will not encounter frightening beings.  And, even if you did, then the frightening beings would not be frightening, just laughable.

This has also brought to my attention something I never really bothered to consider. There was always an uncertainty if they actually existed as more than a mental exercise or what the jhana's and Path were like. I never, ever thought it would reap so many changes and fruits. But since reviewing some of Jhananda and Michael's postings, I'm suddenly a bit intimidated and hesitant to move forward. On the one hand, this is fascinating, and I seem to be pulled toward it since I was a kid. This also appears to be what I am most naturally talented at. On the other hand, it almost seems like a great burden to not know if you'll sleep all through the night because of various phenomena, or if you'll break down in tears for seemingly no reason, or see something terrifying during everyday waking life (does that happen?). I don't know what I am looking to hear, but I am tired, and need to finish this post. So far I have found it to be a great and fulfilling ride, but I am concerned at some point it will become more of a burden. I'm hoping that the benefits of the practice continue to outweigh the negatives.

Well, the uncertain is all par for the course.  This is why dedicated contemplatives who become mystics end up giving up everything, because at no time can we be sure that we can function from one day to the next for a job.  I have often found my psyche so absolutely destroyed after a deep meditation that I am sure it will never reform to anything like normal. Often I find all I need to do is spend a whole day integrating it far from society meditating in nature.

[Alexander]

I find that even among those of us on this forum, we struggle to understand each other. But I would try to explain my perspective on things like this:

For me, meditation is not something confined to 2 hours a day, or a particular sitting, or a retreat: but, if done correctly, it is something that is integrated into my minute-by-minute, daily existence. Mysticism, by extension, is not a spooky side-interest, but a life-process, something that engages with me holistically - intellectually, emotionally, and sexually - and transforms me as a whole. From a fragmented, confused self - a worldling mired in this material world - I re-make myself into something solid, certain, and strong. I become far-removed from fantasy, from pain, from un-reality. I re-make myself in conformity -with Reality-.

One way to understand the method of the mystic is as asceticism (in Greek, "askesis," meaning "exercise" or "training"). In Sanskrit, they use the word "tapas," which literally means "heat." What this "heat" can mean is the friction of your fragmented, material self coming into contact with your more excellent, otherwordly self: that part of you that demands more, intuits more, and is in open revolt against your fragmented self. This conflict can create literal heat. It can raise your body temperature.

John of the Cross divides the period prior to being on Jhananda's level into two dark night periods. These are the Night of Sense and the Night of Spirit. From my own judgment, the first dark night precedes the experience of the first and second samadhis, so if you are experiencing them that implies to me that you have passed through it. The second dark night, the Night of Spirit, transports us into a completely foreign land. It provides us with the third and fourth samadhis, and eventually, the religious experience proper.

The second dark night, and the pain of it, is particular to each person. But is is immeasurable and violent. It is a ravishing of your spirit, a taking you out of yourself, a submersion of you into blankness, blackness, and affliction. It is like taking a piece of wood (to use St. John's analogy), filled with moisture, and then slowly drying it out and taking the moisture out of it. This is done so only after can the wood become fire: can it be spiritualized, exalted, and empowered in a real sense.

The second dark night abolishes fantasy, liberality, and the surface consciousness. It takes you onto another plane, one which is very different from that of these earthlings. There are no more digressive thoughts. There is only a constant and powerful intensity - a divinity, even. This creates the proper setting that enables you to experience the more excellent samadhis and charisms.

[roamer]

Well, the uncertain is all par for the course.  This is why dedicated contemplatives who become mystics end up giving up everything, because at no time can we be sure that we can function from one day to the next for a job.  I have often found my psyche so absolutely destroyed after a deep meditation that I am sure it will never reform to anything like normal. Often I find all I need to do is spend a whole day integrating it far from society meditating in nature.


I'm coming to believe this....recently had a seemingly profound encounter in the immaterial that has dropped me into strong dispassion for just about anything.  I'm sort of just eating food and talking on auto pilot while the inner aspect of my being is totally absorbed in processing and purifying my being.  There needs to be ashrams or at least dedicated parks for people to go through this type of thing, then again as you've long been pointing out we first would need a society and culture that had some interest, understanding and respect for the contemplative life before that could happen.

[Jhanon]

I agree with your responses, and have found them useful. Thank you. Apologies for the delayed response and if I don't respond to every comment I intended to. I'm trying to speak less.

John of the Cross divides the period prior to being on Jhananda's level into two dark night periods. These are the Night of Sense and the Night of Spirit. From my own judgment, the first dark night precedes the experience of the first and second samadhis, so if you are experiencing them that implies to me that you have passed through it. The second dark night, the Night of Spirit, transports us into a completely foreign land. It provides us with the third and fourth samadhis, and eventually, the religious experience proper.

The second dark night, and the pain of it, is particular to each person. But is is immeasurable and violent. It is a ravishing of your spirit, a taking you out of yourself, a submersion of you into blankness, blackness, and affliction. It is like taking a piece of wood (to use St. John's analogy), filled with moisture, and then slowly drying it out and taking the moisture out of it. This is done so only after can the wood become fire: can it be spiritualized, exalted, and empowered in a real sense.

The second dark night abolishes fantasy, liberality, and the surface consciousness. It takes you onto another plane, one which is very different from that of these earthlings. There are no more digressive thoughts. There is only a constant and powerful intensity - a divinity, even. This creates the proper setting that enables you to experience the more excellent samadhis and charisms.

Yes, this makes sense. I can hardly imagine what the second dark night will be like.

I'm realizing that there really isn't much of a choice when it comes to the title of this thread. From the beginning of this lifetime I've found it rather unsatisfactory. And it honestly seems there is a point in mystic evolution where we no longer "fit" into ordinary human society as a result of the contemplative path. I think this may be reflected in what society calls mental "disabilities", like ADHD and dyslexia. Perhaps these are in part a result of contemplative practice in the past. Because almost every ADHD and dyslexia individual I've met has been a contemplative. I'm stilling working out the details as I get deeper into samadhi, so I am not convinced yet.

I'm coming to believe this....recently had a seemingly profound encounter in the immaterial that has dropped me into strong dispassion for just about anything.  I'm sort of just eating food and talking on auto pilot while the inner aspect of my being is totally absorbed in processing and purifying my being.  There needs to be ashrams or at least dedicated parks for people to go through this type of thing, then again as you've long been pointing out we first would need a society and culture that had some interest, understanding and respect for the contemplative life before that could happen.

At least in my experience in society, outside of the GWV, I have been running into much more people who are interested in meditation and the immaterial. The problem is all the rubbish material and teachers out there. It really seems getting accurate information out, like Jhananda already has, is what will generate the interest, respect as support we need. From what I understand, it seems that is how is has happened historically. An enlightened being begins teaching and providing information to the most earnest, and gradually the circle of influence grows to encompass more diverse individuals--resulting in growing awareness an support.

But I don't suspect it will ever be as big and easy as something like the typical Christian church in America. Or perhaps it will be a rather ninja-like process, as it so far has mostly been.

[Jhanananda]

I'm coming to believe this....recently had a seemingly profound encounter in the immaterial that has dropped me into strong dispassion for just about anything.  I'm sort of just eating food and talking on auto pilot while the inner aspect of my being is totally absorbed in processing and purifying my being.  There needs to be ashrams or at least dedicated parks for people to go through this type of thing, then again as you've long been pointing out we first would need a society and culture that had some interest, understanding and respect for the contemplative life before that could happen.

Sadly so true.

Yes, this makes sense. I can hardly imagine what the second dark night will be like.

I'm realizing that there really isn't much of a choice when it comes to the title of this thread. From the beginning of this lifetime I've found it rather unsatisfactory. And it honestly seems there is a point in mystic evolution where we no longer "fit" into ordinary human society as a result of the contemplative path. I think this may be reflected in what society calls mental "disabilities", like ADHD and dyslexia. Perhaps these are in part a result of contemplative practice in the past. Because almost every ADHD and dyslexia individual I've met has been a contemplative. I'm stilling working out the details as I get deeper into samadhi, so I am not convinced yet.

I have often thought that if those who become mystics only knew the trouble it would make in their lives, then they would not take up the path, but each of us also find so much consolation in the religious experience that we all we line up for crucifixion if necessary.

At least in my experience in society, outside of the GWV, I have been running into much more people who are interested in meditation and the immaterial. The problem is all the rubbish material and teachers out there. It really seems getting accurate information out, like Jhananda already has, is what will generate the interest, respect as support we need. From what I understand, it seems that is how is has happened historically. An enlightened being begins teaching and providing information to the most earnest, and gradually the circle of influence grows to encompass more diverse individuals--resulting in growing awareness an support.

Yes, there is just so much misinformation out there to overcome that most people never make it through to find anything of value.

But I don't suspect it will ever be as big and easy as something like the typical Christian church in America. Or perhaps it will be a rather ninja-like process, as it so far has mostly been.

Mysticism has always appealed to a very small group of people who are determined enough to wade through the lies to find the truth, and the bliss that lies behind the truth.

[rougeleader115]

Yes, this makes sense. I can hardly imagine what the second dark night will be like.

I'm realizing that there really isn't much of a choice when it comes to the title of this thread. From the beginning of this lifetime I've found it rather unsatisfactory. And it honestly seems there is a point in mystic evolution where we no longer "fit" into ordinary human society as a result of the contemplative path.

Yes I do worry about an even deeper second dark night of the soul for I don't know if I have made it to the first, and things are already chaotic as they are!

I'm coming to believe this....recently had a seemingly profound encounter in the immaterial that has dropped me into strong dispassion for just about anything.  I'm sort of just eating food and talking on auto pilot while the inner aspect of my being is totally absorbed in processing and purifying my being.  There needs to be ashrams or at least dedicated parks for people to go through this type of thing, then again as you've long been pointing out we first would need a society and culture that had some interest, understanding and respect for the contemplative life before that could happen.

I have definitely found my self at odds with my daily life, especially after consecutive deep meditations. I am managing as much as I can, but I agree that this would certainly be easier with a community. Roamer I really feel you when you talk about "just eating food and talking on auto pilot". I came accross this page while doing research for my psychology course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder

"Depersonalization disorder (DPD) is a mental disorder in which the sufferer is affected by persistent or recurrent feelings of depersonalization and/or derealization. In the DSM-IV-TR this disorder is classified as a dissociative disorder; in the ICD-10 it is called depersonalization-derealization syndrome and classified as an independent neurotic disorder.[1] Common descriptions of symptoms are: feeling disconnected from one's physicality; feeling as though one is not completely occupying the body; not feeling in control of one's speech or physical movements; feeling detached from one's own thoughts or emotions; a sense of automation, going through the motions of life but not experiencing it or participating in it; loss of conviction with one's identity; feeling a disconnection from one's body; inability to accept one's reflection as one's own; difficulty relating oneself to reality and the environment; feeling as though one is in a dream; and out-of-body experiences.[2] Depersonalization is described as suffering from episodes of surreal experiences. Some of these experiences have been also reminiscent of panic attacks and paroxysmal anxiety. While many people experience brief moments of depersonalization, in others it may last much longer and can become a persistent problem.[3] Diagnostic criteria for Depersonalization disorder include, among others, persistent or recurrent experiences of feeling detached from one's mental processes or body.[4]"

It of course looks a lot like the descriptions of a lot of people who come here, myself included. It was strange coming across a description like this as I have seen similar ones for schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders as well as meditative absorption. The reason I brought this up is because I have read too many places that say if one has disorders like this, that engaging in meditation will cause an increase in these symptoms and possibly cause full-blown psychosis. To me this sounds like hitting the dark night of the soul if one was engaged in meditation. I normally wouldn't bring up psychological talk, but it is being dished out to me as I go through these courses and it brings up questions. Is it reasonable to say that psychosis could just be a description of the dark night of the soul? I am already hesitant to ask because I don't feel as if every case of psychosis is valid as the dark night of the soul, but many at least seem to be very similar. How should one take these explanations by psychologists?

[roamer]

rogueleader115,
Your psychological concerns are valid and something each contemplative needs to very very honestly reflect on.  However i do not find that descriptions like dissociative disorder match with what is happening to myself during periods of what i'd call intense dispassion. 
Unlike derealization i feel a heightened awareness of emotions, actions and in general awareness of my self.  It is usually during these periods when i readjust my character and integrity.  Rather than abandoning responsibility for my actions i find the crisis to invoke a deeper sense of responsibility for my thoughts words and actions.  Its a period where i am forced to come to terms with many unconcious behaviors which might be considered fetters, sins, or karmas.  It could easily slide the way of dissociative disorder if i am not honest and truthful with my own state during the period.

I find though that the difficulty and struggle of this period is really a blessing as it is helping me draw these things out of myself so that i can more readily be drawn towards communion with the divine.  It just is not pleasant and not easy and really tests the integrity of my being, and i can readily admit that i have much work to do, but i do feel that these processes help purify my being and are a necessary stage in the spiritual development process.

[rougeleader115]

Hola Roamer,

Unlike derealization i feel a heightened awareness of emotions, actions and in general awareness of my self.

This is how I feel during at times I am accused of dissociation. I talked about it in another post that I may be very much aware of my internal fluctuations, though externally it may not seem so.

Rather than abandoning responsibility for my actions i find the crisis to invoke a deeper sense of responsibility for my thoughts words and actions.  Its a period where i am forced to come to terms with many unconcious behaviors which might be considered fetters, sins, or karmas.  It could easily slide the way of dissociative disorder if i am not honest and truthful with my own state during the period.

I find though that the difficulty and struggle of this period is really a blessing as it is helping me draw these things out of myself so that i can more readily be drawn towards communion with the divine.  It just is not pleasant and not easy and really tests the integrity of my being, and i can readily admit that i have much work to do, but i do feel that these processes help purify my being and are a necessary stage in the spiritual development process.

I really appreciate the mature view you have of dealing with the purification. I am still working to accept and learn from the more unpleasant side of myself, but as you said it makes it easier to commune with the divine, so it is hard not to put forth the effort to do so. What exactly do you mean by being honest with yourself?

[roamer]

What exactly do you mean by being honest with yourself?
Tough question, on the one level there is the obvious, are you being honest and consistent with others in your dealings,  but there are many more levels to it.  Are you living up to your standard of dharma or right livilihood?  Did you go out of your way to help someone, or choose to turn your back?  Are you putting forth every effort in thought word and action, or letting some things slide? These certainly aren't right wrong cookie cutter type of questions, but they are definitely the type of thing a contemplative must navigate through.  At a certain point you’re in the stream and the situation is more apparent, but there are from my experience "purification" points where it seems like your integrity and values are really examined and you really have to decide where your priorities lie in life and what you are willing give to live what you believe.

[Jhanananda]

It of course looks a lot like the descriptions of a lot of people who come here, myself included. It was strange coming across a description like this as I have seen similar ones for schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders as well as meditative absorption. The reason I brought this up is because I have read too many places that say if one has disorders like this, that engaging in meditation will cause an increase in these symptoms and possibly cause full-blown psychosis. To me this sounds like hitting the dark night of the soul if one was engaged in meditation. I normally wouldn't bring up psychological talk, but it is being dished out to me as I go through these courses and it brings up questions. Is it reasonable to say that psychosis could just be a description of the dark night of the soul? I am already hesitant to ask because I don't feel as if every case of psychosis is valid as the dark night of the soul, but many at least seem to be very similar. How should one take these explanations by psychologists?

rogueleader115,
Your psychological concerns are valid and something each contemplative needs to very very honestly reflect on.  However i do not find that descriptions like dissociative disorder match with what is happening to myself during periods of what i'd call intense dispassion. 
Unlike derealization i feel a heightened awareness of emotions, actions and in general awareness of my self.  It is usually during these periods when i readjust my character and integrity.  Rather than abandoning responsibility for my actions i find the crisis to invoke a deeper sense of responsibility for my thoughts words and actions.  Its a period where i am forced to come to terms with many unconcious behaviors which might be considered fetters, sins, or karmas.  It could easily slide the way of dissociative disorder if i am not honest and truthful with my own state during the period.

I find though that the difficulty and struggle of this period is really a blessing as it is helping me draw these things out of myself so that i can more readily be drawn towards communion with the divine.  It just is not pleasant and not easy and really tests the integrity of my being, and i can readily admit that i have much work to do, but i do feel that these processes help purify my being and are a necessary stage in the spiritual development process.

What exactly do you mean by being honest with yourself?
Tough question, on the one level there is the obvious, are you being honest and consistent with others in your dealings,  but there are many more levels to it.  Are you living up to your standard of dharma or right livilihood?  Did you go out of your way to help someone, or choose to turn your back?  Are you putting forth every effort in thought word and action, or letting some things slide? These certainly aren't right wrong cookie cutter type of questions, but they are definitely the type of thing a contemplative must navigate through.  At a certain point you’re in the stream and the situation is more apparent, but there are from my experience "purification" points where it seems like your integrity and values are really examined and you really have to decide where your priorities lie in life and what you are willing give to live what you believe.

I too was accused of suffering from a dissociative disorder, and schizophrenia, and causing myself "neurological damage" due to "incorrect meditation practice."  It only proves that psychiatry and meditation teachers today are clueless when it comes to the mystic.

I believe roamer understands the key difference between mental illness and deep meditation, which is being mindfully self-aware, and behaving responsibly.  Our dispassion, and tranquility, and equanimity is all too often misunderstood as a dissociative disorder.

[roamer]

I believe roamer understands the key difference between mental illness and deep meditation, which is being mindfully self-aware, and behaving responsibly.  Our dispassion, and tranquility, and equanimity is all too often misunderstood as a dissociative disorder.

Sadly i  think again that its a cultural issue where the state of equanimity and the corresponding emergent phenomena of the mind (various non material domains experience ect) are simple not understood.  At best we seem to focus on making the self functional and not emotionally distraught, it is too rare where we still ourselves further than some nice feelings.  To me this barrier we have placed on resting the mind to the point of equanimity has the same effect as pushing a bunch of fish into a shallow shore and placing a net on the exit to the ocean.  We are all just forced to churn in each others frothy waters darting this way and that, while the deep peaceful freedom of the big waters remains off limit.  I don't think we can stay sane as a culture for long without experiencing the deep free waters of tranquillity, it is our deeper truer nature and all our "rational" efforts to psychologically normalize our behaviour will never subdue or yearnings to be in the ocean.

[Jhanananda]

I like your ocean metaphors roamer.  They remind me of the description for the jhanas in the Samana Phala Sutta (DN-2)

The Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2) .62
First Jhana
62. "With (So) the renunciation (vivicceva) of sensuality (kàmehi), and renunciation (vivicca) of unwholesome mental states (akusalehi), and with applied and sustained attention (savitakkaü savicàraü) and originating from dispassion (vivekajaü), s/he resides in (viharati) the clarity (upasampajja), bliss and joy (pãtisukhaü), of the first (pañhamaü) ecstasy (jhànaü).

With (So) his/her entire (imameva) body (kàyaü) saturated (parisanneti2), suffused (paripåreti) and overflowing (parippharati) with the bliss and joy (pãtisukhena) of renunciation (vivekajena) there is nothing in him/her that is not pervaded (apphuñaü) by the bliss and joy (pãtisukhena) of renunciation  (vivekajena) in every way (sabbàvato) destroying (Nàssa) the burden (ki¤ci) that clings (abhisanteti1) to his/her body (kàyassa).

63. “Just as, oh Great King of the south, a bath attendant or his assistant, sprinkled water upon bath powder until it is saturated and pervaded, kneading it and working it, so that it is permeated inside and out without a drop trickling from it, just so, Great King, originating from dispassion a seeker of Buddhahood causes this body to be filled to overflowing with bliss and joy, in every way destroying evil things that stick to the character. Originating from dispassion there is nothing in this body that is not pervaded with bliss and joy.

“Surely, Great King, this is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the present, and more sublime than the previous ones.

“Avarice flows out of such a one's body like seafaring fish”

Translated from the Pali by Jhananda

[Jhanon]

It's interesting how often ocean is used in mystic discussion. I wrote a kind of poem about it just recently. And there are many past instances I can recall others using ocean as a means to explain mystic experience. I don't anticipate a response to this. Just saying

[Zack]

For me, meditation is not something confined to 2 hours a day, or a particular sitting, or a retreat: but, if done correctly, it is something that is integrated into my minute-by-minute, daily existence. Mysticism, by extension, is not a spooky side-interest, but a life-process, something that engages with me holistically - intellectually, emotionally, and sexually - and transforms me as a whole. From a fragmented, confused self - a worldling mired in this material world - I re-make myself into something solid, certain, and strong. I become far-removed from fantasy, from pain, from un-reality. I re-make myself in conformity -with Reality-.

The second dark night, and the pain of it, is particular to each person. But is is immeasurable and violent. It is a ravishing of your spirit, a taking you out of yourself, a submersion of you into blankness, blackness, and affliction. It is like taking a piece of wood (to use St. John's analogy), filled with moisture, and then slowly drying it out and taking the moisture out of it. This is done so only after can the wood become fire: can it be spiritualized, exalted, and empowered in a real sense.

Excellent post, Alexander. I found it especially well-put. My biggest obstacle and lesson is that of trust. Trust in the process, trust that I am not simply wandering endlessly through a maze of my scars but that I am being led through that, hopefully in the most efficient route. The constrictive, claustrophobic, dark dramas I find myself in give way to wide vistas where everything is open, clear... and tinged with a more clarified and indistinct sense of pain and fear. Neither state provides much comfort, so I have to trust that while shifting between these and other states, I am also moving forward.