Depression as an unwholesome state

[Michel]

The Pali terms for depression are:  (nt.) omaddana; adhopatana. (m.) visaada; kheda. (Source: GWV Pali Dictionary)

The next question to my mind would be why are there no references to any of these terms when we look at the Pali terms for the hindrances/fetters?

For 'Restlessness-worry and anxiety,' we have the term uddhacca-kukkucca.

For Sloth-torpor, we have the term thīna-middha.

Could they be synonyms? We need to hire a detective. I don't want to spend too much time on this. My time is precious, I have very little of it left.

[Michel]

I have received PMs expressing concern that there may be something wrong with my physical health. What I meant by saying that "I have very little time left" in the immediate post above is that I'm getting old fast and that it is important to not waist any time on dead ends. However I am not in any immediate danger. Sorry for the miscommunication. Thank-you for your concern.

The Buddha said that one should seek the end of the path as if one's hair was on fire; there is great urgency. No matter how young you are, consider your time as precious for you could die or fall ill at any moment. The stakes are high. So strive on.

[Jhanon]

This was the hopeful interpreted meaning of your post You've inspired me to kill the self. I'm so sick of him. LOL

[Jhanananda]

I like the way your therapist put it. Depression is obsessing over the same depressive thoughts over and over, and one should replace those thoughts with more wholesome ones. It really is such a simple mechanism.

I think if you try being mindfully self-aware enough to know when you are depressed, then turning your attention to a more blissful point of view, that depression will be in the deep past for you.

Depression is totally healthy. It's telling us that there is something really wrong with our predicament as humans. It's like a pullback mechanism that forces us to retire and seek refuge from the woes of the world because we are disabled by the enormous pain of existence. There we try and find a resolution.

I completely agree, and if the world had something more postivie to replace depression with, then the world would have a functional solution verses medication.

Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane. We are living in a nightmare.

I agree, except that one can turn one's mind to the bliss, joy and ecstasy of the charismatic experience, but most people do not know this.

Of course I refer to someone who hasn't found the N8P and followed it to its fruition. When we read the great authors of the Western literature: Kafka, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Hermann Hesse, etc., they beautifully describe  the suffering of humanity. When you become acutely aware of this, when you see it in your own experience, when you see your own anxiousness and despair - you begin to look for a way out. Interestingly, I pointed this out to my psychiatrist and my brother at a meeting recently. They laughed at me and thought I was ridiculous. They never read the classics nor have they reflected on their own predicament.

I have been thinking of your response here for days.  This is such a sad reflection upon mainstream thought. 

Modern psychology and psychiatry divides anxiety and depression into separate categories. Yes, depression  and anxiety commonly occur together. Not everybody who is anxious is depressed, but most depressed people have some symptoms of anxiety. I think the Buddha was referring  to "existential" anxiety and depression when he described the 1st N.T. So I would place anxiety and depression together. And one is only free from anxiety and depression when one has attained arahantship. So I think the 9th fetter should be anxiety and depression.

If understand correctly, the dark night of the soul is a different sort of depression. It's not existential in nature,  it's the process of becoming a holy one. A purification of the soul, or the gradual death of the ego. I have not found any references to this in the suttas. But we have other mystics referring  to it.

I agree with the above.

[Alexander]

Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane. We are living in a nightmare. Of course I refer to someone who hasn't found the N8P and followed it to its fruition. When we read the great authors of the Western literature: Kafka, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Hermann Hesse, etc., they beautifully describe  the suffering of humanity. When you become acutely aware of this, when you see it in your own experience, when you see your own anxiousness and despair - you begin to look for a way out. Interestingly, I pointed this out to my psychiatrist and my brother at a meeting recently. They laughed at me and thought I was ridiculous. They never read the classics nor have they reflected on their own predicament.

Modern psychology and psychiatry divides anxiety and depression into separate categories. Yes, depression  and anxiety commonly occur together. Not everybody who is anxious is depressed, but most depressed people have some symptoms of anxiety. I think the Buddha was referring  to "existential" anxiety and depression when he described the 1st N.T. So I would place anxiety and depression together. And one is only free from anxiety and depression when one has attained arahantship. So I think the 9th fetter should be anxiety and depression.

If understand correctly, the dark night of the soul is a different sort of depression. It's not existential in nature,  it's the process of becoming a holy one. A purification of the soul, or the gradual death of the ego. I have not found any references to this in the suttas. But we have other mystics referring  to it.

Excellent.

[Michel]

Delusion is the 10th and final fetter. It's also called ignorance. There could be a difference between the two, I'm not sure. Delusion is not understanding the nature of one's own suffering, or not understanding the 4 N.T.

There is a subtle distinction between delusion (moha) and ignorance (avijja) in the Pali Canon:

"Ignorance (avijja)

Within the Theravada tradition, moha is classified as one of the three unwholesome roots, which are the root or source of all of the other unwholesome mental factors.

In this tradition, moha is considered to be synonymous with avijja, but the terms are used in different contexts. Bhikkhu Bodhi explains:

Ignorance (avijja) is actually identical in nature with the unwholesome root "delusion" (moha). When the Buddha speaks in a psychological context about mental factors, he generally uses the word "delusion" (moha); when he speaks about the causal basis of samsara, he uses the word "ignorance" (avijja). Thus, the term avijja is used when identifying the first causal link in the twelve links of dependent origination, and moha is used when discussing the mental factors."

Source: Wikipedia

Hopefully Bodhi is correct on this point.

[Michel]

Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane. We are living in a nightmare. Of course I refer to someone who hasn't found the N8P and followed it to its fruition. When we read the great authors of the Western literature: Kafka, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Hermann Hesse, etc., they beautifully describe  the suffering of humanity. When you become acutely aware of this, when you see it in your own experience, when you see your own anxiousness and despair - you begin to look for a way out. Interestingly, I pointed this out to my psychiatrist and my brother at a meeting recently. They laughed at me and thought I was ridiculous. They never read the classics nor have they reflected on their own predicament.

Modern psychology and psychiatry divides anxiety and depression into separate categories. Yes, depression  and anxiety commonly occur together. Not everybody who is anxious is depressed, but most depressed people have some symptoms of anxiety. I think the Buddha was referring  to "existential" anxiety and depression when he described the 1st N.T. So I would place anxiety and depression together. And one is only free from anxiety and depression when one has attained arahantship. So I think the 9th fetter should be anxiety and depression.

If understand correctly, the dark night of the soul is a different sort of depression. It's not existential in nature,  it's the process of becoming a holy one. A purification of the soul, or the gradual death of the ego. I have not found any references to this in the suttas. But we have other mystics referring  to it.

Excellent.

I plan to explore these ideas, which are not fully mature, as I further develop my understanding of the dhamma. And some of your ideas, Alexander, have influenced my understanding. So I thank you.

[Michel]

I like the way your therapist put it. Depression is obsessing over the same depressive thoughts over and over, and one should replace those thoughts with more wholesome ones. It really is such a simple mechanism.

I think if you try being mindfully self-aware enough to know when you are depressed, then turning your attention to a more blissful point of view, that depression will be in the deep past for you.

Depression is totally healthy. It's telling us that there is something really wrong with our predicament as humans. It's like a pullback mechanism that forces us to retire and seek refuge from the woes of the world because we are disabled by the enormous pain of existence. There we try and find a resolution.

I completely agree, and if the world had something more postivie to replace depression with, then the world would have a functional solution verses medication.

Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane. We are living in a nightmare.

I agree, except that one can turn one's mind to the bliss, joy and ecstasy of the charismatic experience, but most people do not know this.

Of course I refer to someone who hasn't found the N8P and followed it to its fruition. When we read the great authors of the Western literature: Kafka, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Hermann Hesse, etc., they beautifully describe  the suffering of humanity. When you become acutely aware of this, when you see it in your own experience, when you see your own anxiousness and despair - you begin to look for a way out. Interestingly, I pointed this out to my psychiatrist and my brother at a meeting recently. They laughed at me and thought I was ridiculous. They never read the classics nor have they reflected on their own predicament.

I have been thinking of your response here for days.  This is such a sad reflection upon mainstream thought. 

Modern psychology and psychiatry divides anxiety and depression into separate categories. Yes, depression  and anxiety commonly occur together. Not everybody who is anxious is depressed, but most depressed people have some symptoms of anxiety. I think the Buddha was referring  to "existential" anxiety and depression when he described the 1st N.T. So I would place anxiety and depression together. And one is only free from anxiety and depression when one has attained arahantship. So I think the 9th fetter should be anxiety and depression.

If understand correctly, the dark night of the soul is a different sort of depression. It's not existential in nature,  it's the process of becoming a holy one. A purification of the soul, or the gradual death of the ego. I have not found any references to this in the suttas. But we have other mystics referring  to it.

I agree with the above.

Thank-you for your comments, Jhananda. I appreciate it very much.

[Michel]

Being gloomy can be a positive trait. In alchemy, melancholy is considered a key part of the transformative stage called "putrefaction." When combined with thoughtfulness, it is a key step in one's going within oneself.

Gloom can also be negative. In Christianity, acedia (sloth/torpor/moodiness) is a deadly sin. In this case it means self-indulgence. It is a hindrance that must be overcome through spiritual attainment.

That is so true. There is a component of self-indulgence in one's depression. I remember once a psychiatrist told me during one of my depressions to stop obsessing over the main theme of the depression and I snapped right out of it. I was torturing myself. I needed someone's permission to stop this insane behaviour. What simple and stupid creatures we can be.

[Jhanon]

This is also true in my experience, Michel. Although I never had put it into words I thought wise to verbalize. I would always just think "It's a choice." But, calling it self-indulgence like he did--it really drove the nail through. This is by far the most powerful insight I've ever come across regarding mental disorders. Because, at least to an extent, I think the symptoms of ADHD are individuals born with mystical qualities of ecstaticism and self-indulgence. Even PTSD, another one of my collection, appears to be self-indulgence. There's more to it, of course, but it all comes back to self-indulgence. I am slowly driving this into this thick-skulled dog of an identity.

It seems to me that the path is nothing more than not indulging the self, and learning to utilize charismatic phenomena to do so--no?

[Michel]

It seems to me that the path is nothing more than not indulging the self, and learning to utilize charismatic phenomena to do so--no?

That is definitely part of it, isn't it? Or maybe, as you suggest, it could be what qualifies full enlightenment. I would be interested in hearing what the arahants think.

[Jhanon]

We should keep in mind that the skillful utilization of charismatic phenomena allows the healing and deconditioning otherwise vacant. Merely denying self-indulgence isn't enough.

[Michel]

I remember once a psychiatrist told me during one of my depressions to stop obsessing over the main theme of the depression and I snapped right out of it. I was torturing myself. I needed someone's permission to stop this insane behaviour. What simple and stupid creatures we can be.

Let me add that afterwards I went into a temporary delusional state thinking everything was fine, but the depression reasserted itself shortly after. I did not resolve the depression.

The only way out of depression and anxiety is the N8P. All else is delusional because it leads to nowhere.

[Jhanon]

What do you mean capital D? Are you implying the strength if the depression?

And your thesis idea is excellent. If you need case history, you already know I was deeply depressed for 3/4 of life, although I expect that is hard for anyone here to believe.

Oh, and I did enter into a slightly delusional state when I first came out of it. But it slowly became skillful. This reinforces the depression being a natural process of healing. If it's a process, then surely one will be delusional upon finally exiting. Like a man with a weak mind stranded on an island with his best friend Wilson for 10 years. When he finally gets off the island, he's gonna be a little weird.

Afterall, in my first hand personal experience, depression is a byproduct of delusion. That's why they give anti-psychotics to us. So the first stage out of depression would be just delusion. Lol.

[Michel]

What do you mean capital D? Are you implying the strength if the depression?

I refer to depression resulting from the existential crisis. Not the depression that arises from say if your favorite baseball team lost the finals, etc.