Depression as an unwholesome state

[Michel]

Depression is an unwholesome state to be in. I'm trying to figure out where it fits in the teachings. I wonder why it is not part of the unwholesome states: the 5 Hindrances/10 Fetters, etc. Why did Buddha not mention it directly? Maybe it is implied somewhere in the Dhamma?

It is related and sometimes accompanies 'Restlessness, Remorse and Anxiety,' but not necessarily.

If you have the fetter of 'Doubt' about the Dhamma, then you may think that there is no way out of your suffering and then you might be depressed, but not necessarily.

The hindrance of 'Sloth and Unconsciousness' is a state opposite to the 3rd factor of enlightenement, 'Energy' (viriya). It maybe implied here. To me 'Sloth' is a depressed state where one lacks energy. Unconsciousness is when you lose yourself in thoughts obsessing over negative or positive thought fantasies which certainly, in the case of compulsive negative thoughts, can cause one to be in a depressive state . Maybe 'sloth and unconsciousness' implies depression.

For me this is the elephant in the room.  Why is there no direct mention of depression in the Dhamma?

[Jhanon]

Michel, this appears to be a very important insight. I hadn't considered this at all. You revealed many things I was unsure of. I won't say more, as I know I say quite too much as it is.

[Jhanananda]

For me this is the elephant in the room.  Why is there no direct mention of depression in the Dhamma?

Michel, you bring up a very interesting question. Perhaps the Pali Canon has a few translation errors?  Or, possibly depression during the period and region of Siddhartha Gautama was considered part of sloth and torpor?

I went through a protracted dark night of the soul, due to a profound lack of skilled guidance from meditation teachers who were all clueless.  At that time I underwent 9 years of weekly therapy sessions.  Toward the end of that period my therapist proposed a radio station selection dial metaphor for how I could just dial in something better than depression.  We also discussed the record metaphor, for how the depression "groove" in my "record" psyche was "stuck" on a depression grove.  At this time I also was investigating the Pali Canon, where I found recommendations for cultivating the Heavenly Abodes (Brahma viharas).

So, this is how it worked for me.  Through moment-to-moment mindful self-awareness I was able to detect when my mind got stuck back on the depression conditioning.  I then recalled a moment of bliss that I experienced in meditation.  This recollection brought an end to the depression conditioning, and reasserted the bliss conditioning.  it worked very well for me.  Perhaps it will work for you.

Please note that I moved this topic to the section on the spiritual crisis, because to me depression is not just an unwholesome state, but very much part of the spiritual crisis.

[Jhanon]

Michel, my greatest challenge was depression as well. I want to confirm the efficacy of what Jhananda described, as it was also how I found my way out. Exactly how I found my way out. For reference:

So, this is how it worked for me.  Through moment-to-moment mindful self-awareness I was able to detect when my mind got stuck back on the depression conditioning.  I then recalled a moment of bliss that I experienced in meditation.  This recollection brought an end to the depression conditioning, and reasserted the bliss conditioning.  it worked very well for me.  Perhaps it will work for you.

For record, my deepest level of depression lasted for 10 years, in which I had suicidal ideation everyday.

I agree that it was sloth and torpor (and ignorance) on my part. As Eckhart mentions, there is a peculiar pleasure that comes from this. However, there was an external mechanic to it, as well. I was (and am) depressed by worldly things. If it's not nature or Nature, then it's depressing and oppressive--at least in my case. So I was depressed my entire life until I began investing in "the spiritual experience."

These days, if I find myself in a worldly situation, like idle chatter, or glorification of material things, I subtly bring Spirit into the situation. I retreat to the charisms and let them flow into the situation. I could (and almost did) write a book on this.

Whoever it is you may be asking this question for, the recollection of bliss could be anything from a "manic" state to actually meditative ecstasy. Just any moment where one wasn't depressed, and then the desire to cultivate that kind of moment again. That desire doesn't need to be mortified for quite some time--and I really don't if or when it does.

[Alexander]

Being gloomy can be a positive trait. In alchemy, melancholy is considered a key part of the transformative stage called "putrefaction." When combined with thoughtfulness, it is a key step in one's going within oneself.

Gloom can also be negative. In Christianity, acedia (sloth/torpor/moodiness) is a deadly sin. In this case it means self-indulgence. It is a hindrance that must be overcome through spiritual attainment.

[Michel]

I went through a protracted dark night of the soul, due to a profound lack of skilled guidance from meditation teachers who were all clueless.  At that time I underwent 9 years of weekly therapy sessions.  Toward the end of that period my therapist proposed a radio station selection dial metaphor for how I could just dial in something better than depression.  We also discussed the record metaphor, for how the depression "groove" in my "record" psyche was "stuck" on a depression grove.  At this time I also was investigating the Pali Canon, where I found recommendations for cultivating the Heavenly Abodes (Brahma viharas).

So, this is how it worked for me.  Through moment-to-moment mindful self-awareness I was able to detect when my mind got stuck back on the depression conditioning.  I then recalled a moment of bliss that I experienced in meditation.  This recollection brought an end to the depression conditioning, and reasserted the bliss conditioning.  it worked very well for me.  Perhaps it will work for you.

I like the way your therapist put it. Depression is obsessing over the same depressive thoughts over and over, and one should replace those thoughts with more wholesome ones. It really is such a simple mechanism. It's unskillful or improper use of the mind to obsess over depressive thoughts. But if you don't handle your depression skillfully it can kill you. In my view, most depressions are not physical illnesses. Most psychiatrist don't get this. Depression is the supreme motivating factor for discovering if there is a way out of our suffering. Depression is totally healthy. It's telling us that there is something really wrong with our predicament as humans. It's like a pullback mechanism that forces us to retire and seek refuge from the woes of the world because we are disabled by the enormous pain of existence. There we try and find a resolution.

Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane. We are living in a nightmare. Of course I refer to someone who hasn't found the N8P and followed it to its fruition. When we read the great authors of the Western literature: Kafka, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Hermann Hesse, etc., they beautifully describe  the suffering of humanity. When you become acutely aware of this, when you see it in your own experience, when you see your own anxiousness and despair - you begin to look for a way out. Interestingly, I pointed this out to my psychiatrist and my brother at a meeting recently. They laughed at me and thought I was ridiculous. They never read the classics nor have they reflected on their own predicament.

Modern psychology and psychiatry divides anxiety and depression into separate categories. Yes, depression  and anxiety commonly occur together. Not everybody who is anxious is depressed, but most depressed people have some symptoms of anxiety. I think the Buddha was referring  to "existential" anxiety and depression when he described the 1st N.T. So I would place anxiety and depression together. And one is only free from anxiety and depression when one has attained arahantship. So I think the 9th fetter should be anxiety and depression.

If understand correctly, the dark night of the soul is a different sort of depression. It's not existential in nature,  it's the process of becoming a holy one. A purification of the soul, or the gradual death of the ego. I have not found any references to this in the suttas. But we have other mystics referring  to it.

[Jhanon]

Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane.

Hahaha! YES! And, when your psychiatrist and family member laughed at you, I laughed myself at them. Because you just imparted tremendous wisdom on them.

I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.

Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.

[Michel]

I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.

Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.

Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol

[Cal]

Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane.

I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.

Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.

Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol

^.^ It is truly amazing how critically refined you are, Michel. I speculate that you could be correct =)

[Jhanon]

I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.

Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.

Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol

That is a compelling point.

[Michel]

Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane.

I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.

Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.

Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol

^.^ It is truly amazing how critically refined you are, Michel. I speculate that you could be correct =)

Well that's the first time I've been accused of that. You haven't read many of my posts. LOL

[Cal]

Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane.

I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.

Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.

Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol

^.^ It is truly amazing how critically refined you are, Michel. I speculate that you could be correct =)

Well that's the first time I've been accused of that. You haven't read many of my posts. LOL

Oh, but sir, I have =) You mean to find the "exact" answer. In doing so, you have taught me, while learning yourself. =) The ability to be so precise in your questioning is what I meant by critically refined. 

If you meant "being correct"? You have been correct in the precision of your search, in my opinion.

[Michel]

Oh, but sir, I have =) You mean to find the "exact" answer. In doing so, you have taught me, while learning yourself. =) The ability to be so precise in your questioning is what I meant by critically refined. 

If you meant "being correct"? You have been correct in the precision of your search, in my opinion.

Well that's good, Cal.

[Michel]

I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.

Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.

Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol

That is a compelling point.

Delusion is the 10th and final fetter. It's also called ignorance. There could be a difference between the two, I'm not sure. Delusion is not understanding the nature of one's own suffering, or not understanding the 4 N.T.

[Michel]

Ignorance and delusion is also not understanding that one's ego is a construct of the mind or is non-self. It's also not understanding the 3 qualities of existence: impermanence, suffering and non-self. What is impermanent and clung to is suffering, and what is suffering is non-self. Theoretically, if one destroys one's ego identity then there is nothing that remains to suffer. At least that's how I understand it.