Depression as an unwholesome state

[Jhanon]

Lol! Well said, my friend. I'm really enjoying your posts the last week or so, Michel. I always have, but these have a skillful humor in them. It's just nice to see some humor on here lately.

I've wondered often lately if humor is something that goes away in arahantship. The Buddha never seems to have address it, nor am I aware of Jesus doing so. Additionally, as I've gone through these years of slowly de-conditioning, I've experienced a reduction in jokes, but an increase in finding humor in everyday things. It's almost always a product of flamboyant or outrageous egoic behavior. That's why I find your humor funny because you are joking about silly egoic behavior.   

Sorry for de-railing. Should i make a thread about it? I suppose it's wasteful of time.

[Michel]

Lol! Well said, my friend. I'm really enjoying your posts the last week or so, Michel. I always have, but these have a skillful humor in them. It's just nice to see some humor on here lately.

It's coincidental, but I've been reflecting on humor recently. I thought the joke I made on the post about celibacy somewhat frivolous and silly. I may take it down.

I've wondered often lately if humor is something that goes away in arahantship. The Buddha never seems to have address it, nor am I aware of Jesus doing so. Additionally, as I've gone through these years of slowly de-conditioning, I've experienced a reduction in jokes, but an increase in finding humor in everyday things. It's almost always a product of flamboyant or outrageous egoic behavior. That's why I find your humor funny because you are joking about silly egoic behavior.   

Sorry for de-railing. Should i make a thread about it? I suppose it's wasteful of time.

I don't really go out of my way to be amusing. Humour just happens spontaneously. I'm basically very serious about the teachings and the practice. I think a lot of the humor that people do is attention seeking and can be downright vain and self-indulgent at times.

[Jhanon]

I agree, although I don't agree with taking the humor down. You know when I started Counselling about 2 years ago, I was super professional. And I couldn't attract enough people. But I began to just "let my hair down" and I would let a curse word fall if it wanted to. Many times it was very useful. People told me it helped them relax and feel like I was a human being.

Of course this is flirting with identity. But the way I see it, if you don't feel your conscience objecting when you say it, then it's okay. Sometimes the conscience or intuition will even say to say it! If you feel your identity saying "dude they won't think you're enlightened" then definitely leave it up. But this is something only you can know.

We would be wise to remember that Teresa of Avila was the "patron saint of foul language" as Jhananda puts it (might not be exact words.) Is humor about egoic behavior any different? How often have we seem Eckhart or someone on the retreat videos laughing about egoic behavior in others?

Additionally, consider repressed individuals. They seem perfect on the outside. They repress everything, and so their ego is not apparent. Yogis grow their hair out or shave it all, whichever is opposite to what they are used to, and this is done in effort to elicit egoic behavior. In the same way celibacy can. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? Maybe my logic is flawed.

But I think everyone on here knows you take this seriously, Michel. You've consistently earned my respect, even though you already had it.

[Michel]

We would be wise to remember that Teresa of Avila was the "patron saint of foul language" as Jhananda puts it (might not be exact words.) Is humor about egoic behavior any different? How often have we seem Eckhart or someone on the retreat videos laughing about egoic behavior in others?

Everyone has their own style. But some are more effective forms of communication. For instance, I don't like Ajhan Brahms use of humor. He uses it excessively throughout his talks and he takes ages to make his point. It's patronizing almost. It appeals to a frivolous audience. Eckhart Tolle's use of humour is alright. It's not excessive and it sometimes serves to make a point. On the flip side, I could listen to the talks and dialogues of a totally serious J. Krishnamurti. I'm saying that I could live without humour.

Additionally, consider repressed individuals. They seem perfect on the outside. They repress everything, and so their ego is not apparent. Yogis grow their hair out or shave it all, whichever is opposite to what they are used to, and this is done in effort to elicit egoic behavior. In the same way celibacy can. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? Maybe my logic is flawed.

I don't mind repression. I lead a totally repressed sexual life. Celibacy goes against nature's design. The Masters teach us how to overcome our desires and cravings.  I don't think celibacy is that difficult. The teachings give us all the tools we need to overcome the desires of the flesh. Just do not take delight in sensory stimuli. Do not feed them your attention. Guard the sense doors. Practice the non-perception of objects. Abide in a non-dual state if you can

But I think everyone on here knows you take this seriously, Michel. You've consistently earned my respect, even though you already had it.

I hope to keep earning your respect and that of others here.

[Jhanon]

You don't mind repression!? That's how we got here. We repressed emotional reactions to stimuli and created a monster (identity.) Now we're practicing jhana and re-experiencing all of it in order for it to evaporate. Maybe repression has a different cultural meaning where you live?

Repression, suppression, depression--it's all things we're trying to overcome with equanimity.

Like when my Mom used to yell at me for eating all the "good food" in the house, it would make me feel trapped, because she was forcing me to take medication that made my appetite non-existent until the end of the night when I was so hungry I ate the highest calorie ("good food") food I could find. Because i repressed that feeling of being trapped, it took me until now to overcome my gluttonous eating habits.

[Jhanon]

But you know all of this. What did you mean then, Michel? Help me understand. I had a medical procedure done today, so I'm not so bright.

[Michel]

I think it is important practice discipline and restraint. That means repressing all sense desires, guarding the sense doors. Otherwise you could lose yourself in pursuing sensory pleasures. It's what the Buddha taught his monks as part of the gradual training. One of the disciplines is celibacy. The whole aim of the holy life is to master and overcome craving. Look at the N8P. The second factor is Right Intention. For those starting out on the training, the object goal is "to reduce craving for the objects to which it binds us." That means guarding the sense doors. If that isn't repression, I don't know what is. Only when we attain total awakening through the jhanas can we say that we have renounced and totally abandoned craving in all its different manifestations. When we have mastered ourselves, then we have total equanimity. Now that's what we find in the suttas. I choose to practice this way.

However, Jhananda teaches it differently. For example, it's OK to indulge in a little bit of the sensory pleasures such as music, to have sex. But all in moderation. So there are different approaches. Choose one that's right for you. If it doesn't work, try a different way.

[Cal]

Idk if repression at all is good. I still believe the N8P is what you become through daily absorption, the craving fall away on thier own. However, the 4 cornerstones and the 5 aggregates are the guide to change, but they do not suppress, or repress. I've actually found that practicing the aggregates and then following with absorption to be most effective. The N8P is the model of true freedom, not the guide to a guided, wholesome repression, in my opinion.

[Michel]

On restraint:

SN 35:120. Sāriputta

1On one occasion the Venerable Sāriputta was dwelling at Savatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anathapiṇḍika’s Park. Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Venerable Sāriputta and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Venerable Sāriputta:

“2Friend Sāriputta, a bhikkhu who was my co-resident has given up the training and returned to the lower life.”

“3So it is, friend, when one does not guard the doors of the sense faculties, is immoderate in eating, and is not devoted to wakefulness. That a bhikkhu who does not guard the doors of the sense faculties, who is immoderate in eating, sn.iv.104 and who is not devoted to wakefulness will maintain all his life the complete and pure holy life—this is impossible. But, friend, that a bhikkhu who guards the doors of the sense faculties, who is moderate in eating, and who is devoted to wakefulness will maintain all his life the complete and pure holy life—this is possible.

“4And how, friend, does one guard the doors of the sense faculties? Here, having seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu does not grasp its signs and features. Since, if he left the eye faculty unrestrained, evil unwholesome states of covetousness and displeasure might invade him, he practises the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, he undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty. Having heard a sound with the ear ... Having smelt an odour with the nose ... Having savoured a taste with the tongue ... Having felt a tactile object with the body ... Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu does not grasp its signs and features. Since, if he left the mind faculty unrestrained, evil unwholesome states of covetousness and displeasure might invade him, he practises the way of its restraint, he guards the mind faculty, he undertakes the restraint of the mind faculty. It is in this way, friend, that one guards the doors of the sense faculties.

“5And how, friend, is one moderate in eating? Here, reflecting carefully, a bhikkhu takes food neither for amusement nor for intoxication nor for the sake of physical beauty and attractiveness, but only for the support and maintenance of this body, for ending discomfort, and for assisting the holy life, considering: ‘Thus I shall terminate the old feeling and not arouse a new feeling, and I shall be healthy and blameless and live in comfort.’ It is in this way, friend, that one is moderate in eating.

“6And how, friend, is one devoted to wakefulness? Here, during the day, while walking back and forth and sitting, a bhikkhu purifies his mind of obstructive states. In the first watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, he purifies his mind of obstructive states. sn.iv.105 In the middle watch of the night he lies down on his right side in the lion’s posture with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and clearly comprehending, after noting in his mind the idea of rising. After rising, in the last watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, he purifies his mind of obstructive states. It is in this way, friend, that one is devoted to wakefulness.

“7Therefore, friend, you should train yourself thus: ‘We will guard the doors of the sense faculties; we will be moderate in eating; we will be devoted to wakefulness.’ Thus, friend, should you train yourself.”

[Michel]

I forgot to add that sensual desire is also one of the unwholesome states. It is one of the 5 hindrances and one of the 10 fetters. It is a hindrance in one's meditation and can be major distraction in one's daily life.

The sixth factor of the N8P is Right Effort (samma-vayama): 

Mundane:

1) to prevent unwholesome states from arising (the five hindrances/the ten defilements/the seven deadly sins, and the thoughts, emotions, and intentions derived from them)
2) to abandon unwholesome states that have arisen (the five hindrances/the ten defilements/seven deadly sins)

Supramundane:

1) to arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen: serenity, equanimity, the brahma-viharas,  insight, the four foundations of mindfulness, the noble eightfold path, etc. - especially to arouse the seven factors of enlightenment leading to jhana
2) to maintain and perfect wholesome states already arisen (also implies the cultivation of the 4 jhanas)

If you think repressing sensual desire is unhealthy for you, then test it out in your daily life. See how far you can take it. If you're married to someone, you may have a problem with this one.

[Jhanon]

Let's use an example:

If I suddenly experience a craving for ice cream I have three options:

1) Ignore it, but this causes ignorance which is what we are practicing to transcend.

2) Repress or suppress it by pushing it down as soon as possible. Repression is done with force, and is a form of ignorance.

3) Be presently aware that the effects of this indulgence will lead to discomfort, to lack of discipline, to ignorance. Being aware the pleasant abiding of jhana and wakeful absorption are superior--thus retreating to the charisms of spirit where the craving disappears. The mind sees this and is less inclined to crave ice cream in the future.

Enlightenment, like nature, and jhana, and all things pure and holy, flows naturally when we step aside. Nature does not force. It just is, like #3. What do you think now?

[Cal]

Right Michel, this is correct. I spoke only in the "method" one should use to guard, and therefor overcome, not repress.  What I'm learning is there are dark nights over and over, you lose your way. I do not know the circumstance behind the monk above, as I have not yet fully read the discourses. But I can give you an example we both might relate to. It's that others around us, close or far, yet in someway impact full on us, Demand we fit the mold set in front of us. The way they Demand is different, yet is usually involves some sort of labeling. We usually react with acceptance or repression. I personally have chose repression in most cases. Now with that said, repression, or other forms of "pression" are, in my opinion,  the key factors to humans loss of spirituality. Ironically, it seems to also be the key to reconnection as well.

I'll tell you the process behind my experience and the correlation to the aggregates. You begin to say things to yourself inside your mind. When you find that you are hungry, you eat. Eat what you desire, yet when it becomes "indulgence", you say out loud, in your mind, "This is indulgence". You do not repress the desire, you just "teach" the mind to define, to be critical, without resistance to the actions. How many times have heard the others say, "Just let go."? Then you meditate. You absorb, and as you absorb, you meet a resistance within the mind. You have taught the mind to recognize its actions, and it contemplates these actions, preventing further absorption. It is hard to keep at, you become restless, I've even found it painfull. Jhana burns them away. Once they have been impacted satisfactorily, you absorb further. I've recently had 6 sits that have not progressed further than the first Jhana, because like the monk above, I made a choice to stop teaching myself, I have reasons. Jhana burns them away. "Rigorous, Self-Aware, Contemplative, and most importantly Saturation of Jhana." You see Jeffery beat us with those words constantly. You let go of everything, just go with it. Then practice and cultivate.

[Michel]

Let's use an example:

If I suddenly experience a craving for ice cream I have three options:

1) Repress it by pushing it down. Repression is done with force, and is a form of ignorance.

2) Ignore it, but this causes ignorance, another form of repression.

3) Be presently aware that the effects of this indulgence will lead to discomfort, to lack of discipline, to ignorance. Being aware the pleasant abiding of jhana and wakeful absorption are superior.

Enlightenment, like nature, and jhana, and all things pure and holy, flows naturally when we step aside. Nature does not force. It just is, like #3. What do you think now?

Well I guess when you can attain the higher jhanas you can let go of your interest in any of the 6 sensory pleasures. The jhanas are superior to any of the 6 sensory pleasures and therefore you lose interest in those pleasures. But you would know this better than I.

[Michel]

2) Repress or suppress it by pushing it down as soon as possible. Repression is done with force, and is a form of ignorance.

I disagree. The Buddha taught otherwise for his monks beginning the gradual training as I've explain above.

[Jhanon]

I went to far with 3. What I mean is retreating to awareness. In the earlier stages if this development, it's simply being present--the ice cream is a craving.

Later on we can retreat to the charisms. But I don't mean some full blown jhana. It's wakeful life. Lately I simply say "knowing" and let go into the conscience faculties.