Bodhimind's Blog

[bodhimind]

I figured I should continue in this thread instead of the Case Histories thread because it seems more apt.

In one meditation, I felt so disconnected with my body that I could not feel anything in my body or mind. However, if I opened my eyes, I could still see, just that everything seemed so vividly clear. It felt very spacious and empty, as if I did not have a body.

In another meditation, I decided to try open-eyed meditation just to get a feel of how it would be like to retreat from the senses. Even I close my eyes, the sight I see is an "absence of light". I've always been interpreting it as "nothing", but it seems like there is not much difference between opening or closing my eyes. I find that opening my eyes allowed me to understand this. Also, when I experienced the light coming it, it saturated the whole view of the room. If my eyes were closed, it would be more of a "light swallowing my whole being" kind of thing.

In a third meditation, I decided to just allow the thoughts to dwindle away. I would just focus on "letting go", while keeping this inner stillness inside. I found that in this manner, I experienced bliss and joy of the first jhana extremely quickly, much, much more quickly than using a meditation object. The ringing charism also increased to quite a loud intensity.

I guess one realization is that it is almost as if the external senses are always "there". If the awareness is brought to them, it is almost as if I "imagine these senses to be myself" when it is clearly not. The thoughts are also always swarming around like bees, but when I don't put my awareness into them, they dwindle away.

Also, I've found that I was able to suddenly grasp myself that I was sleeping in the middle of the night, as if I was trying to put myself into "oblivion" by unconscious sleep, then I was suspended in a half-lucid state where my mind was very bright, almost as if I was meditating.

--

Also, I realized that my father and I had the same dream in a night. We were both chasing after the Buddha but he was just so fast that we could not keep up... almost as if he was gliding or something. I remember the lushness of the forest and how vivid it was. When I told him about the dream he was quite surprised because I described the same details to him. Do you think it is possible that two people can be in the same "dream-realm" unknowingly? I was thinking that it might be possible that it is a hallucination, but the fact that my father saw the same thing made me question it again.

[Jhanananda]

I figured I should continue in this thread instead of the Case Histories thread because it seems more apt.

In one meditation, I felt so disconnected with my body that I could not feel anything in my body or mind. However, if I opened my eyes, I could still see, just that everything seemed so vividly clear. It felt very spacious and empty, as if I did not have a body.

This could be the 4th jhana.

In another meditation, I decided to try open-eyed meditation just to get a feel of how it would be like to retreat from the senses. Even I close my eyes, the sight I see is an "absence of light". I've always been interpreting it as "nothing", but it seems like there is not much difference between opening or closing my eyes. I find that opening my eyes allowed me to understand this. Also, when I experienced the light coming it, it saturated the whole view of the room. If my eyes were closed, it would be more of a "light swallowing my whole being" kind of thing.

I find open eyed meditation is conducive to standing and walking meditation.  There I defocus my eyes so that I am not distracted by all of the content of my environment.

In a third meditation, I decided to just allow the thoughts to dwindle away. I would just focus on "letting go", while keeping this inner stillness inside. I found that in this manner, I experienced bliss and joy of the first jhana extremely quickly, much, much more quickly than using a meditation object. The ringing charism also increased to quite a loud intensity.

When your mind is still, and you are experiencing bliss, and joy, then you are in the 2nd jhana.

I guess one realization is that it is almost as if the external senses are always "there". If the awareness is brought to them, it is almost as if I "imagine these senses to be myself" when it is clearly not. The thoughts are also always swarming around like bees, but when I don't put my awareness into them, they dwindle away.

Yes, the definition of identity as described in the suttas is defined by the 5 aggregates, which includes the senses.

Also, I've found that I was able to suddenly grasp myself that I was sleeping in the middle of the night, as if I was trying to put myself into "oblivion" by unconscious sleep, then I was suspended in a half-lucid state where my mind was very bright, almost as if I was meditating.

As we learn to meditate deeply, lucidity in sleep rises which appears as light in our dreams.

Also, I realized that my father and I had the same dream in a night. We were both chasing after the Buddha but he was just so fast that we could not keep up... almost as if he was gliding or something. I remember the lushness of the forest and how vivid it was. When I told him about the dream he was quite surprised because I described the same details to him. Do you think it is possible that two people can be in the same "dream-realm" unknowingly? I was thinking that it might be possible that it is a hallucination, but the fact that my father saw the same thing made me question it again.

Carl Young used a term for dreams, which was the "collective unconscious."  This happens to describe my experience of being a lucid dreamer.  The lucid dreamer enters the dream world lucidly; whereas, most others are unconscious there.  Thus, all of the beings that we interact with in dreams, and the OOBE are other beings, not just mental projections.

[bodhimind]

Thank you for the clarifications...

Carl Young used a term for dreams, which was the "collective unconscious."  This happens to describe my experience of being a lucid dreamer.  The lucid dreamer enters the dream world lucidly; whereas, most others are unconscious there.  Thus, all of the beings that we interact with in dreams, and the OOBE are other beings, not just mental projections.

Does this mean that when I experienced that dream with my father, I was literally in the same dream-realm with him? (Given that he experienced it as well)

---

I've been consistently varying between 3rd and 4th. Once I get into 4th, I rarely jump out again any more. But the problem is that sometimes I cannot get into 4th, it feels almost like some switch has been flicked when I transit from third to fourth.

Will just continue to work on my meditation. I seem to have incorporated the habit of maintaining my state in daily life, no matter what I am doing. I still do have certain spikes, but I realize them fast enough now and immediately correct myself.

One of my recent meditations was a little different. I found what works for me is to just continue letting go and letting go, as if everything that surfaces is a hotel guest and if I don't pay attention to them, they leave, allowing my mind to brighten and the charisms to surface. I still discern the factors, but I do not add nor subtract, it is as if the whole thing is natural, as if muddy water is coming to a rest.

When I did this, a very, very warm blissfulness wrapped around my body. I felt some pains and some prickling and some itchiness that spread throughout my body. Then my body seemed as if it was pulled upwards and my spine "elongated" and had some kind of a freezing experience. It didn't feel warm as in "hot", but so warm that it was almost cool. I don't know how to explain it... Do you know what is happening here?

It was almost... mental? I didn't feel any stress from my body.

When I got out of meditation, I felt so amazingly refreshed, as if every single tension was released from the body... and some part of my mind.

------

I've been reading the texts of some of NHJ's students and I think I've found another answer (to the question of whether the breathing ceases or not) very similar to what Jhanananda has talked about. I'll give a good translation below:

Master Nan took off his top, and on his forehead was attached several examination devices. The doctors told Nan, "Now, think normally. (Or out of samadhi)." After a while, the doctors told him, "Now please stop your thoughts." The device reading showed a straight line, without a single movement in the brainwave. Doctor Zhou took a fright and everyone could not believe their eyes.

I remember Jhanananda said that his breathing (or pulse?) ceased in deep samadhi. It seems to be the case where even brainwaves cannot be detected when a person is in deep samadhi, which quite supports the case that the physical body is really not part of the meditation experience... Not even the brain's activity.

But this is quite troubling. What if the doctors misdiagnosed people as "brain-dead" or vegetative states, when they were simply in states of deep samadhi? There is also the Lazarus syndrome, where people wake up in morgues/cold rooms/funerals after being pronounced dead hours before. Or maybe it is just the work of karma?

Another strange commonality that I've found is that he tends to like expressing himself in poetic expression. Do you think that poetic expression is somewhat related? It's also a known fact that Chan masters (especially in ancient China) used to always write poems to express their thoughts, such as this one:

Originally Bodhi has no tree,
The bright mirror has no stand.
Originally there is not a single thing:
Where can dust alight?

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for the clarifications...

You are welcome.

Does this mean that when I experienced that dream with my father, I was literally in the same dream-realm with him? (Given that he experienced it as well)

This is how I take such "parallel" dream experiences.  I have had many such "parallel" dream experiences.  One of the ways I communicated with my children was for us to discuss our dreams over breakfast.  Most people do not do this, so they have little inspiration to recall their dreams, or find out that they have had "parallel" dream experiences with family members.

I've been consistently varying between 3rd and 4th. Once I get into 4th, I rarely jump out again any more.

This is very good. is because you

But the problem is that sometimes I cannot get into 4th, it feels almost like some switch has been flicked when I transit from third to fourth.

Practice makes perfect.  If you meditate often and deeply, then eventually you will drop right into the 4th stage of the meditation experience.

Will just continue to work on my meditation. I seem to have incorporated the habit of maintaining my state in daily life, no matter what I am doing. I still do have certain spikes, but I realize them fast enough now and immediately correct myself.

Yes, this is the saturation phase, which is needed to drop right into whatever level we consistently drop into when we meditate.  It requires that we keep with us the features of that stage.  For instance: to drop right into the 1st stage of the meditation experience we need to keep with us the bliss and joy with us most of the day that we get from deep meditation experience.  To drop right into the 2nd stage of the meditation experience, then we need to keep with us all day the bliss and joy and tranquil still mind of the 2nd stage of the meditation experience.  Thus, to drop right into the 3rd stage of the meditation experience, then we need to keep with us all day the bliss and joy and tranquil still mind, and equanimity of the 3rd stage of the meditation experience.  And, finally, to drop right into the 4th stage of the meditation experience, then we need to keep with us all day the bliss and joy and tranquil still mind, and equanimity, as well as freedom from anxiety of the 4th stage of the meditation experience. 

One of my recent meditations was a little different. I found what works for me is to just continue letting go and letting go, as if everything that surfaces is a hotel guest and if I don't pay attention to them, they leave, allowing my mind to brighten and the charisms to surface. I still discern the factors, but I do not add nor subtract, it is as if the whole thing is natural, as if muddy water is coming to a rest.

When I did this, a very, very warm blissfulness wrapped around my body. I felt some pains and some prickling and some itchiness that spread throughout my body. Then my body seemed as if it was pulled upwards and my spine "elongated" and had some kind of a freezing experience. It didn't feel warm as in "hot", but so warm that it was almost cool. I don't know how to explain it... Do you know what is happening here?

It was almost... mental? I didn't feel any stress from my body.

When I got out of meditation, I felt so amazingly refreshed, as if every single tension was released from the body... and some part of my mind.

Yes, this is how it works, we just learn to let go at a very deep level, which is very relaxing, and the meditation experience unfolds on its own.  The elongating spine, and warmth, and riveting experience, which you called "freezing" are all a characteristic of the calm phase of the rising of the kundalini.  Very good.

I've been reading the texts of some of NHJ's students and I think I've found another answer (to the question of whether the breathing ceases or not) very similar to what Jhanananda has talked about. I'll give a good translation below:

Master Nan took off his top, and on his forehead was attached several examination devices. The doctors told Nan, "Now, think normally. (Or out of samadhi)." After a while, the doctors told him, "Now please stop your thoughts." The device reading showed a straight line, without a single movement in the brainwave. Doctor Zhou took a fright and everyone could not believe their eyes.

I remember Jhanananda said that his breathing (or pulse?) ceased in deep samadhi. It seems to be the case where even brainwaves cannot be detected when a person is in deep samadhi, which quite supports the case that the physical body is really not part of the meditation experience... Not even the brain's activity.

But this is quite troubling. What if the doctors misdiagnosed people as "brain-dead" or vegetative states, when they were simply in states of deep samadhi? There is also the Lazarus syndrome, where people wake up in morgues/cold rooms/funerals after being pronounced dead hours before. Or maybe it is just the work of karma?

It is possible that when the thought are stilled, then there will be no brain activity; however, I do nto believe it, because it would mean that the anatomical processes will have also stopped, which is not likely for a person who is still alive; however, you do bring up the Lazarus syndrome as supporting evidence.  The problem is no one who has done research into meditation has ever examined anyone who meditates deeply, so we just do not know until one who meditates deeply is examined.

Another strange commonality that I've found is that he tends to like expressing himself in poetic expression. Do you think that poetic expression is somewhat related? It's also a known fact that Chan masters (especially in ancient China) used to always write poems to express their thoughts, such as this one:

Originally Bodhi has no tree,
The bright mirror has no stand.
Originally there is not a single thing:
Where can dust alight?

Well, some mystics are poets, and some are not, but we could count Rumi, Kabir, Francis of Assisi, John of the Cross, and myself among those who are.

[jay.validus]

One of my recent meditations was a little different. I found what works for me is to just continue letting go and letting go, as if everything that surfaces is a hotel guest and if I don't pay attention to them, they leave, allowing my mind to brighten and the charisms to surface. I still discern the factors, but I do not add nor subtract, it is as if the whole thing is natural, as if muddy water is coming to a rest.

When I did this, a very, very warm blissfulness wrapped around my body. I felt some pains and some prickling and some itchiness that spread throughout my body. Then my body seemed as if it was pulled upwards and my spine "elongated" and had some kind of a freezing experience. It didn't feel warm as in "hot", but so warm that it was almost cool. I don't know how to explain it... Do you know what is happening here?

I have experienced this icy sensation before. I find it has wrapped itself all around my head and upper body.  I cannot recall if I felt it all down my spine though, I am sure I have that written somewhere.

I remember that a few times when that happened, my thoughts and dreams were geared more towards this highly technological society, and my mother.  It is strange, I find technology comes up sometimes with deep meditation, and in particular this icy sensation.

[bodhimind]

Thank you for the advice so far. I've been on the plane back so haven't been able to update lately while I'm moving stuff, just using all the available time I have to sit down and meditate.

Just updating here, but there aren't many distinct differences in my meditations so far. I've also found that even in daily life, if I were to focus on any one task, I start to get tingles throughout my body, as if I was moving into second jhana. Just making the extra effort to remain in jhana throughout the whole day. There are some times where I do slip up, but I always bring myself back. I put reminders on my phone and around places I visit to continuously remind myself that I should be uninterested in the mundane reality of Maya and to seek solace in the inherent nature.

Reading an interesting book "Master of Self-Realization" written by Shri Sadguru Siddharameshwar Maharaj (link). It is a very enlightening writeup of Vedantic philosophy, although it seems as though it has incorporated the Buddhist viewpoint on the impermanence of things. It is very lucidly written, might do a review of it once I'm done.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for the advice so far. I've been on the plane back so haven't been able to update lately while I'm moving stuff, just using all the available time I have to sit down and meditate.

You are welcome.  Please excuse the delay in my reply as I am currently in the middle of moving, so yesterday I spent most of the day driving and/or unloading the truck at the new warehouse space.

Just updating here, but there aren't many distinct differences in my meditations so far. I've also found that even in daily life, if I were to focus on any one task, I start to get tingles throughout my body, as if I was moving into second jhana. Just making the extra effort to remain in jhana throughout the whole day. There are some times where I do slip up, but I always bring myself back. I put reminders on my phone and around places I visit to continuously remind myself that I should be uninterested in the mundane reality of Maya and to seek solace in the inherent nature.

This is good practice, which is reaping good results.  Just keep it up for the rest of your life, and you are likely to become a full-on mystic.

Reading an interesting book "Master of Self-Realization" written by Shri Sadguru Siddharameshwar Maharaj (link). It is a very enlightening writeup of Vedantic philosophy, although it seems as though it has incorporated the Buddhist viewpoint on the impermanence of things. It is very lucidly written, might do a review of it once I'm done.

The record shows that mystics come regularly to the planet, so there should be a fairly rich mystical literature to select from.  The thing to keep in mind, is it is not how popular the person is, but whether they demonstrate they have attained the fruit of the contemplative life.  So, always look for the fruit.  If you do not find it, then dump the book, and look for another one for inspiration.

[bodhimind]

The record shows that mystics come regularly to the planet, so there should be a fairly rich mystical literature to select from.  The thing to keep in mind, is it is not how popular the person is, but whether they demonstrate they have attained the fruit of the contemplative life.  So, always look for the fruit.  If you do not find it, then dump the book, and look for another one for inspiration.

Thank you for the reminder, I will do so.

-

I had a strange experience just now when meditating. So I was doing the normal thing, holding my attention on an object, and then allowing the physical tingling to rise throughout my body.

What I felt was a violent jerk, as if I bolted back from sleep, and then right after this, my legs and hands seemed to fall asleep (I did not feel them). There was a very subtle tingling still present, but it wasn't of the body. Since I had my eyes closed, there were many lights flashing. But what scared me a little was that there were faces that just popped out in front of me. They were not fully-formed faces, but there were quite a few. I knew this was a reaction, so I immediately detached myself from that sensation. Before the faces, I somehow knew that I was looking at some landscapes.

Throughout the meditation, my body was quite full of energy. It did not feel particularly blissful, more of stillness. I don't understand why the jerk led to this though, this session felt a little different from my other meditations, where I would gradually dip into equanimity.

This is the first time I was violently interrupted in the middle of holding my attention on the object and allowing the tingles to rise. It was as if I leaped straight into stillness. Does that happen? It seemed a little abrupt.

Another thing was that I realized that I still had a very subtle breath right after the jerk, as if there was some kind of pressure against my chest. I could not exhale or inhale too much. But if I stilled my thoughts, my breath seemed to stop along with it.

I got a little disoriented after seeing the faces. Is there a way to overcome this slight discomfort?

[Jhanananda]

I had a strange experience just now when meditating. So I was doing the normal thing, holding my attention on an object, and then allowing the physical tingling to rise throughout my body.

What I felt was a violent jerk, as if I bolted back from sleep,

This sound like the classic kundalini rising.

and then right after this, my legs and hands seemed to fall asleep (I did not feel them).

The kundalini tends to arise at the 3rd jhana, then it tends to carry one deeper, so losing track of your body awareness is typical of the 4th jhana.

There was a very subtle tingling still present, but it wasn't of the body.

This sounds like the tactile charism.

Since I had my eyes closed, there were many lights flashing.

flashing lights is common for the kundalini rising.

But what scared me a little was that there were faces that just popped out in front of me. They were not fully-formed faces, but there were quite a few. I knew this was a reaction, so I immediately detached myself from that sensation. Before the faces, I somehow knew that I was looking at some landscapes.

Deep meditation states puts us in direct contact with the spiritual realm, so we can see faces and previous lifetimes, etc.  The goal is to develop equanimity so that one is not frightened by the faces. We can also hear voices, etc. at this time.

Throughout the meditation, my body was quite full of energy.

Energy is a characteristic of the kundalini.

It did not feel particularly blissful, more of stillness.

people who meditate deeply on a regular basis tend to find stillness blissful.

I don't understand why the jerk led to this though,

A profound jerk is also typical of the kundalini.

this session felt a little different from my other meditations, where I would gradually dip into equanimity.

Oh, yes, the kundalini is the rocket ship blasting off, or wining the spiritual lottery.  We mystic do not tend to get it every day, but from time to time.  We hone our lifestyle so that we can have these more often.

This is the first time I was violently interrupted in the middle of holding my attention on the object and allowing the tingles to rise. It was as if I leaped straight into stillness. Does that happen? It seemed a little abrupt.

Yes.  Some mystics call it spiritual rape by the divine.

Another thing was that I realized that I still had a very subtle breath right after the jerk, as if there was some kind of pressure against my chest. I could not exhale or inhale too much. But if I stilled my thoughts, my breath seemed to stop along with it.

Yes, the appearance of the breath stopping is typical of the 4th jhana.

I got a little disoriented after seeing the faces. Is there a way to overcome this slight discomfort?

Yes, develop equanimity.

[bodhimind]

This sound like the classic kundalini rising.

I never expected that it would be kundalini as well, thank you for clarifying it. It was really worrying me. I did feel some anxiety when I started having those experiences after the jerk.

Deep meditation states puts us in direct contact with the spiritual realm, so we can see faces and previous lifetimes, etc.  The goal is to develop equanimity so that one is not frightened by the faces. We can also hear voices, etc. at this time.

I feel like the fear spontaneously rose. How can one develop equanimity in such a way? I quite leapt from second to this experience, so I did not really go through the third. Do you mean that I should keep meditating to the third jhana to have that blissful equanimity?

Yes, the appearance of the breath stopping is typical of the 4th jhana.

I have a question about the breath though. It seems that most of the time, I would be aware of the breath in the background awareness, but it is as if I am afraid of the breath stopping, so my awareness seems to gravitate towards it. Should I here, be focusing on the kinesthetic/tactile charisms completely? I just realized that I do not actually understand what equanimity really means. I know that in the 4th, pain/pleasure is not felt. But in the 3rd, this is equanimity as well - Does this just mean the mental bliss or is there something else to this?

Yes.  Some mystics call it spiritual rape by the divine.

Gosh I laughed at that one, because it really felt that way.

[Jhanananda]

I never expected that it would be kundalini as well, thank you for clarifying it. It was really worrying me. I did feel some anxiety when I started having those experiences after the jerk.

I feel like the fear spontaneously rose. How can one develop equanimity in such a way? I quite leapt from second to this experience, so I did not really go through the third. Do you mean that I should keep meditating to the third jhana to have that blissful equanimity?

Yes.  Some mystics call it spiritual rape by the divine.

Gosh I laughed at that one, because it really felt that way.

Now you have just had a taste of how truly violent the experience of deep meditation can be; and why it can be so very frightening, especially when there is no one to put it into context for you.  Most people go to their priest, who has never had such an experience, and the priest tells them they just had a brush with the devil, but good news for you, he can deposess you for a fee, a very high fee.

I have a question about the breath though. It seems that most of the time, I would be aware of the breath in the background awareness,

The breath will be in the background up through the 3rd jhana.  It just ceases to be a focusing mechanism by the time one stills the mind in the 2nd jhana.  When the charisms begin to arise in the 3rdf jhana, then one attends to the charisms as if they are the new meditation object.

but it is as if I am afraid of the breath stopping, so my awareness seems to gravitate towards it.

Fear is the primary obstacle to deep meditation, after the mind.  Most people and priests never make it past the fear, and drop back their meditation to a level that does not trigger the charisms.

Should I here, be focusing on the kinesthetic/tactile charisms completely?

If you want enlightenment in this very lifetime, then you will learn to use all of the charisms as an object of meditation.  Doing so will take you deeper without you doing anything, because the deep meditation experience is a natural process.

I just realized that I do not actually understand what equanimity really means. I know that in the 4th, pain/pleasure is not felt. But in the 3rd, this is equanimity as well - Does this just mean the mental bliss or is there something else to this?

As I keep pointing out, almost no priest of any religion understands deep meditation, thus the translations of the Pali Canon are hopelessly as screwed up as every translation of the bible is screwed up.

The 3rd stage of the experience of deep meditation (3rd jhana) is characterized by the arising of equanimity, as well as the arising of the charisms.  The experience of equanimity in deep meditation is to experience a very rich sensory field with no mental involvement in it at all.  There is no interpreting of the sensory experience here.  The sensory experience is purely raw, and one may not even be aware of what the sensations are until after the meditation session is over.

If one never develops a still mind, and equanimity by the time the charisms begin to arise, then one may be driven crazy by the arising charisms, which the untrained mind will be trying to interpret.  When the untrained mind tries to interpret the charisms, then one interprets the charismatic sound as voices, and the charismatic tactile sensations as bugs crawling on the body, and the charismatic luminosity as faces; all of which will drive one crazy.  So, one must focus upon stilling the mind, and developing equanimity as one develops the deep meditation experience.

[jay.validus]

The 3rd stage of the experience of deep meditation (3rd jhana) is characterized by the arising of equanimity, as well as the arising of the charisms.  The experience of equanimity in deep meditation is to experience a very rich sensory field with no mental involvement in it at all.  There is no interpreting of the sensory experience here.  The sensory experience is purely raw, and one may not even be aware of what the sensations are until after the meditation session is over.

If one never develops a still mind, and equanimity by the time the charisms begin to arise, then one may be driven crazy by the arising charisms, which the untrained mind will be trying to interpret.  When the untrained mind tries to interpret the charisms, then one interprets the charismatic sound as voices, and the charismatic tactile sensations as bugs crawling on the body, and the charismatic luminosity as faces; all of which will drive one crazy.  So, one must focus upon stilling the mind, and developing equanimity as one develops the deep meditation experience.

Thank you for putting this all into words for me.  I have all this experience but I have had no way of putting it into words until I found this forum.

God bless you.

[bodhimind]

Now you have just had a taste of how truly violent the experience of deep meditation can be; and why it can be so very frightening, especially when there is no one to put it into context for you.  Most people go to their priest, who has never had such an experience, and the priest tells them they just had a brush with the devil, but good news for you, he can deposess you for a fee, a very high fee.

It really can be quite disorientating and frightening. I can see how people can be driven mad without any context.

The breath will be in the background up through the 3rd jhana.  It just ceases to be a focusing mechanism by the time one stills the mind in the 2nd jhana.  When the charisms begin to arise in the 3rdf jhana, then one attends to the charisms as if they are the new meditation object.

Alright, so I need to let the breath remain in the background awareness - and then put all my attention on the charisms. Will work on it. I realized that I've been switching between the charisms and the breath each moment. Maybe this is what has been impeding my progress.

As I keep pointing out, almost no priest of any religion understands deep meditation, thus the translations of the Pali Canon are hopelessly as screwed up as every translation of the bible is screwed up.

The 3rd stage of the experience of deep meditation (3rd jhana) is characterized by the arising of equanimity, as well as the arising of the charisms.  The experience of equanimity in deep meditation is to experience a very rich sensory field with no mental involvement in it at all.  There is no interpreting of the sensory experience here.  The sensory experience is purely raw, and one may not even be aware of what the sensations are until after the meditation session is over.

If one never develops a still mind, and equanimity by the time the charisms begin to arise, then one may be driven crazy by the arising charisms, which the untrained mind will be trying to interpret.  When the untrained mind tries to interpret the charisms, then one interprets the charismatic sound as voices, and the charismatic tactile sensations as bugs crawling on the body, and the charismatic luminosity as faces; all of which will drive one crazy.  So, one must focus upon stilling the mind, and developing equanimity as one develops the deep meditation experience.

Thank you so much for this clarification, it really drives the third jhana into context for me. Now I see that equanimity must be developed in order to avoid interpreting these charisms. I always thought that the equanimity was simply stillness, but I never realized that the charisms arise at such a vicious magnitude that could cause so much anxiety to rise.

By stilling the mind, do you mean "detaching" yourself from the phenomena and seeing them as it is, without any attributes or interpretation? As of now, I am being carried along with these phenomena. Do you mean that you should just watch these things, not push them away, but just experience them as if one is watching the breath?

I do experience the auditory charism of ringing, and I've learnt how to "ride" that sound, but I am not very sure how one can apply that to the visual aspect. Is it more of a third-person point of view?

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for putting this all into words for me.  I have all this experience but I have had no way of putting it into words until I found this forum.

God bless you.

It really can be quite disorientating and frightening. I can see how people can be driven mad without any context.

You are welcome Jay, and bodhimind.  Good to know that this forum helps your contemplative life.

Alright, so I need to let the breath remain in the background awareness - and then put all my attention on the charisms. Will work on it. I realized that I've been switching between the charisms and the breath each moment. Maybe this is what has been impeding my progress.

Oh, yes, holding onto any sensory or cognitive meditation object after the first jhana will just hold back.

Thank you so much for this clarification, it really drives the third jhana into context for me. Now I see that equanimity must be developed in order to avoid interpreting these charisms. I always thought that the equanimity was simply stillness, but I never realized that the charisms arise at such a vicious magnitude that could cause so much anxiety to rise.

Yes, now you can see why people, priests, are so very terrified of the experience of deep meditation; and why amateurs run the world of meditation.

By stilling the mind, do you mean "detaching" yourself from the phenomena and seeing them as it is, without any attributes or interpretation?

The stilling of the mind is just ending the mental chatter.  Pulling back from and detaching oneself from the mental and sensory world, and seeing things as they are, without interpretation, is equanimity.

As of now, I am being carried along with these phenomena. Do you mean that you should just watch these things, not push them away, but just experience them as if one is watching the breath?

Bare attention is one of the terms used here, where one attends to the charism, in the same way that one attends to the breath without attempting to change the breath or the charism.

I do experience the auditory charism of ringing, and I've learnt how to "ride" that sound, but I am not very sure how one can apply that to the visual aspect. Is it more of a third-person point of view?

In the same way, one just attends to the luminosity without interpreting it. 

There is another factor here that has only been discussed occasionally on this forum; and that is taking comfort, refuge, and even submission to the charisms, are key aspects of success with deep meditation.

[bodhimind]

Bare attention is one of the terms used here, where one attends to the charism, in the same way that one attends to the breath without attempting to change the breath or the charism.

Thank you, this phrase "bare attention" works for me when I'm trying to develop equanimity. The word "bare" really works for me when I'm trying not to interpret it... Kind of "raw" attention where you're shining your awareness on the charisms but do not interfere or change them in anyway, but allow them to flourish by providing just that awareness as a condition?

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The recent session was not as violent, but I felt the same distinct shift. A bright light grew inside my head as if it was a sun, and then the tingling spread extremely quickly. It was as if the sun was in my head, and my whole vision was brightened. It felt as if I could see without a torchlight if I opened my eyes. Very soon, I felt the same pressure I had against my chest in my previous session. However, I seem to be having difficulties with staying with the charisms at this point as I do tend to get distracted by the breath.

I guess I will have to work on that. I did manage to turn towards the loud whistling for a while and I felt as if space extended (or more of that I could not really perceive the limits of my body). I remember in the past that I had a sucking sensation towards the crown but this session did not have it, neither did I have a black void which is supposed to be the transitory phase. I guess it must be the breath distraction again.

I am still working on equanimity. I looked in the mirror today and realized there was something strange about my facial structure, as if there was some subtle change. I am not sure if the energies of my recent sessions had caused some change to my structure. Does it tend to do that?? I've heard it happened to some others, but it was often accompanied by great pain, but in my case I did not experience much.

I also realized that lately, I would be able to just "intent" something and suddenly things would shift into my odds. I've heard of the Princeton experiment where the mind can affect a random number generator (Global Consciousness Project), but sometimes, things seem to be extremely lucky for me. I can recognize a "bad wave of luck" and then turn it around just by being mindful of it and intending the opposite. I am not sure if this is a side-path or anything, I do not intend to indulge in it, but I just wanted to confirm this is not some delusion by verifying it.

There is also this ability to "know" things. For example, I just seem to know how things work. It feels as if I logically deduced it, but I can tell that the logic I used seems to have come from... "nowhere"? It's a little strange.