Bodhimind's Blog

[bodhimind]

Relationship for most people is hardly worth it, if sex, and reproduction, are not part of the relationship.  So, one would expect that there would be some sex in a relationship. 

On the other hand, relationships can lead to perdition. I know this from personal experience.  So, it is better, if you feel you need relationship, to find a person with whom you can live with for the rest of your life.  This would be someone who shares your value for developing the deep meditation experience, and has understood that the GWV has possibly the best handle on a lifestyle that leads there than any religion today.

That makes a lot of sense. I see sex as a way for nature to maintain the genetic survival of the human animal. (This curiously brings up the various forms of reproduction like egg-born, womb-born, moisture-born, spontaneously-born - Do devas reproduce spontaneously? Do they even have a need for a birth mechanism like that?)

Unfortunately there are not many who take up mediation practice, nor meditate to similar depths as I do, nor experience the same things as I do, which can be frustrating as a relationship is often not based on such a criteria. Also, at my age, there are people who are very attached to ideas of romantic love, particularly perpetuated by the media. If I do commit into a relationship, I will be careful to find an equally self-aware life partner. From looking at relationships of both my age and older, it seems that relationships are filled with dramas, perpetual expectation meeting and as you said, it is a clinging or addiction of some sort - to feelings, thrills, anxiety, etc.

Yes, there are many paths that lead to the first or second jhana, but none of these paths seem to recognize anything beyond the first or second jhana.  The devout of every religion tend to end up in the first jhana, but absolutely reject the idea that there is anything beyond the first or second jhana.

That is what I've noticed as well, especially since many people tend to equate the ayatana of infinite consciousness/space with a non-dual mind. This is especially extensive for Zen material. It confused me for a long time before I got into GWV material.

As an anthropologist, and having married twice, and having fathered 3 children, I happen to find the whole reason why the nuclear family exists is successful reproduction in humans requires someone to take care of the child almost full-time during its protracted maturation.  This could be done by a husband-wife team, or by a small village.

Very interesting, because I've been doing a reading on altruistic behaviour or cooperative breeding, where allo-mothers tend to take care of offspring as a collaborative effort to increase their survival. I also find it curious how families in various species of animals tend to stay for much shorter periods than humans. It might be that the human animal has a longer dependency due to the very complex navigation they have to learn in "society".

What I observe around me in the culture at large is relationship is mostly driven by addiction of one form or another.  So, I agree, one who works on him or her-self to 4th level mastery will be over addictive behavior, and be a good mate, spouse, father, etc.  But, both partners in a relationship will need to be at that level, because, from my experience, having a relationship with someone who is not at 4th level mastery is likely to lead to perdition.

I will take note of that. As I intend to lead a contemplative lifestyle to follow in the footsteps of the Buddha and the sangha, I may either remain celibate/single or find a partner who shares in that ideal.

Well, if we were going to compare parallel concepts from one culture to the next, then I would say that avatar=Buddha=messiah=Christ.

Whereas, I would say Atman=soul.

Shakti=samadhi=Shekhinah=Holy Spirit.

And, Brahman=God.

Thank you for that, it clears things up.

----

Just another blog entry.

One night back, I talked to a friend who expressed frustrations over people who were not self-aware. Having heard this, I immediately recognized it as a proto-contemplative view, since I used to have the same perspective and felt ever since I was 3, that people were walking zombies (I believe I had my mild dark night in that time, because I was not aware that I meditated and lucid-dreamt intensely in my childhood). He expressed very agreeable points. I agreed with him that people do not exercise caution over their speech, actions and thoughts, mainly because they are not self-aware. If they were, they would not be engaging in harsh talk, gossip, idle-talk, etc.

I also heard from a friend that her boyfriend recently got into the 'mindfulness' trend and suddenly switched around from an adamant atheist into someone with a review as such "all religions just have different costumes". Hearing that, perhaps the 'mindful' movement going around might have some form of benefit as an entry-point for people into deep-meditation. But it is only an entry-point, I wish more people exercised caution on the accuracy of their words.

I also recognized in interactions between people, that one side sometimes bears unrealistic expectations, thinking that the other side can "mind-read" him. When the expectation is not met, one becomes befallen with suffering. And the core reason why he even had that expectation was fuelled by habit, as well as a self-view. From this, I can see how removing our neuroses and addictions can help us be better in relationships. However sometimes, relationships with people can seem to steer in ways that you did not previously mean.

----

Whenever I get the chance, I sit down to meditate. The frequency seems to increase, from once to twice to sometimes thrice. However, due to my hectic schedule, I can only have one session that last for an hour, before I go to sleep. I tend to have very intense dreams after that session, and see friends I know in various puzzling situations. Perhaps it reflects the craving and worries I still bear in my psyche, in a Jungian way.

Sometimes the joy can be accompanied with a little inner-crying. It feels beautiful and I find much comfort in it.

----

I was reflecting on the process of the Buddha's self-discovery. He had a very scientific mind, for he always tested things out to its eventual fruition, before he asked the question: "Does this lead to nibbana/cessation?" He mastered the samadhis of nothingness and no-perception-nor-non-perception, realized it was not cessation, then realized that the way is in jhana.

This also posed a strange question I have been thinking about: Doesn't this directly imply that it is possible that one reaches these two ayatana achievements without the jhanas, and hence bear no fruit of enlightenment?

If that is the case, then maybe it could indicate why some people interpret jhana as something without joy in the ayatanas. Maybe it is the source of variability in people who have some of these "still-mind" experiences.

On GWV, the 8th samadhi (or immaterial absorptions) is written to be fusion with God here. Here is where I am a little puzzled and am trying to understand. From what I understand, the Buddha erroneously mastered the 8th samadhi under one of his teachers. Is this the same samadhi spoken of in the page here? Or is it maybe because the Buddha did not acquire the factors in jhana, and hence could not experience that ayatana in full?

[Jhanananda]

That makes a lot of sense. I see sex as a way for nature to maintain the genetic survival of the human animal. (This curiously brings up the various forms of reproduction like egg-born, womb-born, moisture-born, spontaneously-born - Do devas reproduce spontaneously? Do they even have a need for a birth mechanism like that?)

Reproduction is one of the prime directives of all organisms, so it is a powerful instinct for all species, including humans.  On the other hand, since reproduction is purely about perpetuating a species, it therefore has nothing to do with the immaterial domains, so there is no reproduction there.

Unfortunately there are not many who take up mediation practice, nor meditate to similar depths as I do, nor experience the same things as I do, which can be frustrating as a relationship is often not based on such a criteria. Also, at my age, there are people who are very attached to ideas of romantic love, particularly perpetuated by the media. If I do commit into a relationship, I will be careful to find an equally self-aware life partner. From looking at relationships of both my age and older, it seems that relationships are filled with dramas, perpetual expectation meeting and as you said, it is a clinging or addiction of some sort - to feelings, thrills, anxiety, etc.

Agreed, there are definite problems with relationship undermining the contemplative life.  At the time that I met both of my wives at different times, I met them at meditation retreats, which were organized by an organization that I felt valued meditation for the cultivation of mysticism, so I thought it was a good environment to meet a mate.  Unfortunately in both cases these women were only attending that organization to meet a mate, who would be disciplined, but were not disciplined themselves.  In both cases they were able to carry on the charade long enough to get married and get pregnant.

Even though the organization on the surface was dedicated to meditation for the cultivation of mysticism; nonetheless, the guru was only interested in enriching himself, and the organization was only interested in recognizing the guru as one who had attained, but whom only was a good actor, and was otherwise seducing the wives of his disciples and stockpiling gold.  So, it was just one big fraud; therefore I now access individuals and organizations using the phrase, "we know a tree by its fruit.

That is what I've noticed as well, especially since many people tend to equate the ayatana of infinite consciousness/space with a non-dual mind. This is especially extensive for Zen material. It confused me for a long time before I got into GWV material.

Yes, we always have to follow the other adage, "buyer beware."

Very interesting, because I've been doing a reading on altruistic behaviour or cooperative breeding, where allo-mothers tend to take care of offspring as a collaborative effort to increase their survival. I also find it curious how families in various species of animals tend to stay for much shorter periods than humans. It might be that the human animal has a longer dependency due to the very complex navigation they have to learn in "society".

Yes, I agree on all of your points. Human reproduction and development is most probably better done on the level of a small village, where everyone participates in the protracted training and maturation of the child.  This allows for more breaks to be taken by the parents, and child, so that they are not forced into isolation behind closed doors. I imagine this kind of reproduction and training of children could be quite wholesomely done in a coed contemplative community.  I have been working on this concept for the last 15 years, but there has not been enough participation in the idea to bring it to fruition.

I will take note of that. As I intend to lead a contemplative lifestyle to follow in the footsteps of the Buddha and the sangha, I may either remain celibate/single or find a partner who shares in that ideal.

If you stick to this plan, then I see no reason why it would lead to anything other than liberation for you, and anyone you may be in relationship with.  My case histories show there are as many women with attainment as men.  The problem is we are all spread out thinly, and almost never meet.  This is in part why I have been encouraging retreat attendance.

Just another blog entry.

One night back, I talked to a friend who expressed frustrations over people who were not self-aware. Having heard this, I immediately recognized it as a proto-contemplative view, since I used to have the same perspective and felt ever since I was 3, that people were walking zombies (I believe I had my mild dark night in that time, because I was not aware that I meditated and lucid-dreamt intensely in my childhood). He expressed very agreeable points. I agreed with him that people do not exercise caution over their speech, actions and thoughts, mainly because they are not self-aware. If they were, they would not be engaging in harsh talk, gossip, idle-talk, etc.

I also heard from a friend that her boyfriend recently got into the 'mindfulness' trend and suddenly switched around from an adamant atheist into someone with a review as such "all religions just have different costumes". Hearing that, perhaps the 'mindful' movement going around might have some form of benefit as an entry-point for people into deep-meditation. But it is only an entry-point, I wish more people exercised caution on the accuracy of their words.

I also recognized in interactions between people, that one side sometimes bears unrealistic expectations, thinking that the other side can "mind-read" him. When the expectation is not met, one becomes befallen with suffering. And the core reason why he even had that expectation was fuelled by habit, as well as a self-view. From this, I can see how removing our neuroses and addictions can help us be better in relationships. However sometimes, relationships with people can seem to steer in ways that you did not previously mean.

Yes, I value atheism for its critique of organized religion, and see it as a developmental path that could lead to mysticism, but too often people do not take the criticism of organized religion deep enough to arrive at the contemplative life.

Those who do arrive at the contemplative life generally represent people who have unpacked the religion of their culture enough to realize that the contemplative life might just be part of the "righteousness" that is discussed in the Bible and Gospels.  Unfortunately, just because someone has scraped below the surface of the cultural belief systems, and begun to practice meditation, does not mean that they are going to engage enough in meditation and cultural criticism to arrive at fruition.  Thus, the only people who have had any success with meditation are those who accidentally bump into the mystical states, and found out that almost no meditation teacher today understands deep meditation, then they have to search enough to find the GWV archives and/or this forum.

Whenever I get the chance, I sit down to meditate. The frequency seems to increase, from once to twice to sometimes thrice. However, due to my hectic schedule, I can only have one session that last for an hour, before I go to sleep. I tend to have very intense dreams after that session, and see friends I know in various puzzling situations. Perhaps it reflects the craving and worries I still bear in my psyche, in a Jungian way.

We start out with filling our free time with meditation, whenever we can, and it often ends up, as you described.  As for lucid dreaming about friends, I explain this using the Jungian concept of the "collective unconscious," in which dreamers are dreaming in a collective way, and we who take up a skillful contemplative life begin to become lucid in the dream space, and end up becoming aware of the collective unconscious and thus the shared dream-time of our friends and family.

Sometimes the joy can be accompanied with a little inner-crying. It feels beautiful and I find much comfort in it.

Weeping is a part of becoming a mystic, but it is almost exclusively expressed in Christian mysticism.

I was reflecting on the process of the Buddha's self-discovery. He had a very scientific mind, for he always tested things out to its eventual fruition, before he asked the question: "Does this lead to nibbana/cessation?" He mastered the samadhis of nothingness and no-perception-nor-non-perception, realized it was not cessation, then realized that the way is in jhana.

I agree.  This critical testing of philosophies and contemplative practices is a characteristic of all genuine mystics; however, it is not always expressed that way in the literature that is associated with all mystics.

This also posed a strange question I have been thinking about: Doesn't this directly imply that it is possible that one reaches these two ayatana achievements without the jhanas, and hence bear no fruit of enlightenment?

If that is the case, then maybe it could indicate why some people interpret jhana as something without joy in the ayatanas. Maybe it is the source of variability in people who have some of these "still-mind" experiences.

If we consider that the 4 ayatanas are all OOBEs, then we can see that some mystics get hung-up in the fantastic world of the OOBE, and never find liberation, because they overlook the cognitive developmental phase of the 4 jhanas.

On GWV, the 8th samadhi (or immaterial absorptions) is written to be fusion with God here. Here is where I am a little puzzled and am trying to understand. From what I understand, the Buddha erroneously mastered the 8th samadhi under one of his teachers. Is this the same samadhi spoken of in the page here? Or is it maybe because the Buddha did not acquire the factors in jhana, and hence could not experience that ayatana in full?

If I recall correctly, in the two suttas that describe Siddhartha Gautama's journey to enlightenment (MN-26 and MN-36) you will see that the 8th samadhi was not something that he had developed but the 5th through the 7th.  The problem of missing this can be due to translation error, where most of the translators never practiced meditation, or at least never developed the art of deep meditation.

[bodhimind]

Thank you for the clarification, I appreciate it.

Reproduction is one of the prime directives of all organisms, so it is a powerful instinct for all species, including humans.  On the other hand, since reproduction is purely about perpetuating a species, it therefore has nothing to do with the immaterial domains, so there is no reproduction there.

This makes sense.

Agreed, there are definite problems with relationship undermining the contemplative life.  At the time that I met both of my wives at different times, I met them at meditation retreats, which were organized by an organization that I felt valued meditation for the cultivation of mysticism, so I thought it was a good environment to meet a mate.  Unfortunately in both cases these women were only attending that organization to meet a mate, who would be disciplined, but were not disciplined themselves.  In both cases they were able to carry on the charade long enough to get married and get pregnant.

Even though the organization on the surface was dedicated to meditation for the cultivation of mysticism; nonetheless, the guru was only interested in enriching himself, and the organization was only interested in recognizing the guru as one who had attained, but whom only was a good actor, and was otherwise seducing the wives of his disciples and stockpiling gold.  So, it was just one big fraud; therefore I now access individuals and organizations using the phrase, "we know a tree by its fruit.

Yes, I now try to stay away from idol-like organizations and organized 'religion' until I can be sure that one has the fruits of attainment.

Yes, I agree on all of your points. Human reproduction and development is most probably better done on the level of a small village, where everyone participates in the protracted training and maturation of the child.  This allows for more breaks to be taken by the parents, and child, so that they are not forced into isolation behind closed doors. I imagine this kind of reproduction and training of children could be quite wholesomely done in a coed contemplative community.  I have been working on this concept for the last 15 years, but there has not been enough participation in the idea to bring it to fruition.

I am curious, how would this village work? It sounds like a pleasant community to live within.

If you stick to this plan, then I see no reason why it would lead to anything other than liberation for you, and anyone you may be in relationship with.  My case histories show there are as many women with attainment as men.  The problem is we are all spread out thinly, and almost never meet.  This is in part why I have been encouraging retreat attendance.

That makes sense. I would love to attend a retreat with everyone else, but perhaps it is my life's conditions that have not allowed me to do so.

We start out with filling our free time with meditation, whenever we can, and it often ends up, as you described.  As for lucid dreaming about friends, I explain this using the Jungian concept of the "collective unconscious," in which dreamers are dreaming in a collective way, and we who take up a skillful contemplative life begin to become lucid in the dream space, and end up becoming aware of the collective unconscious and thus the shared dream-time of our friends and family.

Oh, that makes more sense now. Since everyone goes to the dream space at the same time, would be it safe to say that it is likely that we all access this collective unconscious at the same time as well? How does dream space differ from the physical space/astral space?

If we consider that the 4 ayatanas are all OOBEs, then we can see that some mystics get hung-up in the fantastic world of the OOBE, and never find liberation, because they overlook the cognitive developmental phase of the 4 jhanas.

If I recall correctly, in the two suttas that describe Siddhartha Gautama's journey to enlightenment (MN-26 and MN-36) you will see that the 8th samadhi was not something that he had developed but the 5th through the 7th.  The problem of missing this can be due to translation error, where most of the translators never practiced meditation, or at least never developed the art of deep meditation.

Opps, I think it might have been error on my part. Is it safe to say that the 8th is the last absorption? Or is the "9th" nirvana?

---

I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but it seems that kundalini has an equivalent in Christianity, known as the fire of love or "incendium amoris", written by Richard Rolle (link to excerpts).

"I have wondered more than I can tell," Rolle says, "when first I felt my heart grow warm, and glow with no imaginary, but with a real, and as it were, sensible flame. So I marvelled, when that flame first burst forth in my soul, and was in unwonted peace, through the unexpectedness of this abundance. . . . . For I had not reckoned taht such a warmth could happen to any man in this exile. . . . . . for even as a finger, placed in the fire, is clothed with heat which it feels, so the soul, kindled in this manner, as I have told, is sensible of the most real heat; but now fiercer and greater, now less, even as the frailty of the flesh allows...

As far as my study of Scripture goes, I have found that to love Christ above all else will involve three things: warmth and song and sweetness. And these three, as I know from personal experience, cannot exist for long without there being great quiet.....

In these three things (which are the sign of love in its most perfect form) the utmost perfection of the Christian religion is undoubtedly found.....

I call it fervour when the mind is truly ablaze with eternal love, and the heart similarly feels itself burning with a love that is not imaginary but real. For a heart set on fire produces a feeling of fiery love.

I call it song when there is in the soul, overflowing and ardent, a sweet feeling of heavenly praise; when thought turns into song; when the mind is in thrall to sweetest harmony.

This twofold awareness is not achieved by doing nothing, but through the utmost devotion; and from these two there springs the third, for unspeakable sweetness is present too. Fervour and song bring marvellous delight to a soul, just as they themselves can be the product of very great sweetness.

...still I lack those things which show the Beloved to the one who longs for him. And this wounds me, and fills me with longing, but gives no ease at all; rather it increases it, because with my growing love my longing increases too.... Love it is that tortures me, love that delights me. It tortures, because what is loved so much is not immediately granted me; yet it delights, because it refreshes me with hope, and infuses indescribable comfort through its very heat.

For a mighty longing develops when there is in the soul through its joy and love the song of songs, and the fierce heat produces further sweet delight. For now one likes to think that death is life. For the flower that this thought nourishes can never die, but the splendour which all the while is growing in the lover, and which seems so wonderful, makes of death and music one thing....

Also, some interesting quotes:

If any man could achieve both lives at once, the contemplative and the active, and sustain and fulfil them, he would be great indeed. He would maintain a ministry with his body, and at the same time experience within himself the song of heaven, absorbed in melody and the joy of everlasting love. I do not know if anybody has ever done this: it seems to me impossible to do both at once. We must not reckon Christ in this respect as an ordinary man, nor his blessed Mother as an ordinary woman. For Christ did not have wandering thoughts, nor did he contemplate in the way that saints in this life commonly do. He did not need to work at it as we need, because from the moment of his conception he saw God.

It was beautifully written - despite this being a translation.

Also, I reflected on Sam talked about in his "physical transformation" thread and realized that Catholicism talks about "bodily incorruptibility" where corpses do not go through rigor mortis or decay. I know Yogananda, Tsong Khapa, St Catherine of Genoa and St. Francis have full-body "relics", so perhaps they might have gone through that physical transformation.

[rougeleader115]

Hello friends and fellow contemplatives,

I hope to get an update on my practice and life experiences up soon. I have some questions of my own, but I wanted to get on here and say thank you to bohdimind, Alexander, Michel, and whoever else has been posting questions lately and investigating  these states and spiritual texts. You all ask such similar questions that I would ask myself, and this makes me feel I am among like minded individuals, something I do not have in my daily life.

Rougeleader

[Jhanananda]

I am curious, how would this village work? It sounds like a pleasant community to live within.

That sounds like a topic for a lengthy discussion under another thread, but I imagine that the community would be egalitarian.

Since everyone goes to the dream space at the same time, would be it safe to say that it is likely that we all access this collective unconscious at the same time as well? How does dream space differ from the physical space/astral space?

The immaterial domains are not restricted to linear time, so someone could be in a different time zone than another, and yet still experience each other in a lucid dream time or OOBE.

Is it safe to say that the 8th is the last absorption? Or is the "9th" nirvana?

In the suttas, there are just 8 stages of samadhi.  The 9th stages is liberation, which is the product of shedding the obsessions from negotiating the 8 stages of samadhi.

I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but it seems that kundalini has an equivalent in Christianity, known as the fire of love or "incendium amoris", written by Richard Rolle (link to excerpts).

The experience of a powerful energy rushing up the spine has been referred to with different terms in different religions at different times.  It has been called 'divine rape' in Christian literature.  It has also been called the 'holy spirit' etc.  In Hinduism, it has been referred to as 'shakti,' 'virya,' ad 'kundalini.'

Also, I reflected on Sam talked about in his "physical transformation" thread and realized that Catholicism talks about "bodily incorruptibility" where corpses do not go through rigor mortis or decay. I know Yogananda, Tsong Khapa, St Catherine of Genoa and St. Francis have full-body "relics", so perhaps they might have gone through that physical transformation.

If we look outside of Christianity we find very well preserved bodies, which were not the body of a saint.  It just got well preserved due to the right conditions.  Also, if we look at Tibetan Buddhism they consider it sacred when there is nothing left of the body.  So, which is it, incorruptibility or complete dissolution?  I do not buy either.  Let us just focus open one thing.  We know a tree by its fruits, but let us not obsess over the dead, and learn to become mystics our self.

Good to read a message from you Rougeleader.  I hope you are well and making progress.

[Alexander]

These are great quotes. I have experienced what he says many times. They are not references to kundalini, but the inner heat which can be felt after opening the heart. The Asian equivalent would be opening the heart chakra.

For now one likes to think that death is life.

For I had not reckoned that such a warmth could happen to any man in this exile...

These are great passages. The way he writes is so elegant. It's shocking he uses the same words I do. To live in exile, and choose death over life, are the way to make progress on the spiritual path.

[jay.validus]

These are great passages. The way he writes is so elegant. It's shocking he uses the same words I do. To live in exile, and choose death over life, are the way to make progress on the spiritual path

How interesting you say.  My friend said last night to live with death is to be more spiritually in-tune.  I was shocked at her working and thought, yeah how true.

[bodhimind]

That sounds like a topic for a lengthy discussion under another thread, but I imagine that the community would be egalitarian.

Possibly accommodating for the various differences in people as well? Since not everyone is born in the same way. I think that will only be possible in a mystic community. There is also a question of corruption, although I find that more likely in a bureaucracy that controls allocation of provisions.

If we look outside of Christianity we find very well preserved bodies, which were not the body of a saint.  It just got well preserved due to the right conditions.  Also, if we look at Tibetan Buddhism they consider it sacred when there is nothing left of the body.  So, which is it, incorruptibility or complete dissolution?  I do not buy either.  Let us just focus open one thing.  We know a tree by its fruits, but let us not obsess over the dead, and learn to become mystics our self.

Thank you Jhanananda, for the reminder to not get side-tracked.

These are great quotes. I have experienced what he says many times. They are not references to kundalini, but the inner heat which can be felt after opening the heart. The Asian equivalent would be opening the heart chakra.

For now one likes to think that death is life.

For I had not reckoned that such a warmth could happen to any man in this exile...

These are great passages. The way he writes is so elegant. It's shocking he uses the same words I do. To live in exile, and choose death over life, are the way to make progress on the spiritual path.

Now that you mention it, that makes more sense. I found his expression beautiful too.

I also found that repeatedly facing the fact that one is impermanent and will die anyway was one of the keys to helping me let go... (especially the Kayagati-sati Sutta's description of comparing corpses and the current body). Perhaps I have not reached that insight yet... but I hope to understand why one would want to live in exile. Is it because one does not want to become well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society (in the words of Krishnamurti)?

How interesting you say.  My friend said last night to live with death is to be more spiritually in-tune.  I was shocked at her working and thought, yeah how true.

Hmm... perhaps it is because we grasp at becoming that we feel much pain. I agree with looking at death, but a question just popped in my head...

In DN 2, the Samannaphala Sutta, one of the wrong views was Annihilation (by Ajita). He believed that in death, everything breaks up and there is complete annihilation. I was wondering... When we contemplate death, how should we view it? Since the Buddha talks about in the Kayagata-sati Sutta as such:

"Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, and hawks, by dogs, hyenas, and various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh and blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions -- here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a chest bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies that experience to this very body, 'This body, too will die and decay: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.'

Do we see death as simply the end of a physical body - and not the "annihilation of existence"?

[Jhanananda]

How interesting you say.  My friend said last night to live with death is to be more spiritually in-tune.  I was shocked at her working and thought, yeah how true.

Hmm... perhaps it is because we grasp at becoming that we feel much pain. I agree with looking at death, but a question just popped in my head...

In DN 2, the Samannaphala Sutta, one of the wrong views was Annihilation (by Ajita). He believed that in death, everything breaks up and there is complete annihilation. I was wondering... When we contemplate death, how should we view it? Since the Buddha talks about in the Kayagata-sati Sutta as such:

"Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, and hawks, by dogs, hyenas, and various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh and blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions -- here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a chest bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies that experience to this very body, 'This body, too will die and decay: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.'

Do we see death as simply the end of a physical body - and not the "annihilation of existence"?

I believe, bodhimind, you are speaking of DN-1, not 2. 

I find the point of DN-1 is all belief systems are speculative, so one can never know the truth of a belief system, without becoming a mystic, traveling out of body, space and time to verify any of the belief systems.

However, in my experience of traveling out of body, through space and time I found, while the body is impermanent and will eventually die; nonetheless, that which can travel out of body, through space and time, lives on, and never dies.  This, I believe is what was referred to in the suttas as the deathless (amatta), and I also believe it is precisely the 'eternal life' (aiōnios αἰώνιος eternal, zōē ζωὴ life) that is referred to in the Gospels.

[bodhimind]

I believe, bodhimind, you are speaking of DN-1, not 2. 

I find the point of DN-1 is all belief systems are speculative, so one can never know the truth of a belief system, without becoming a mystic, traveling out of body, space and time to verify any of the belief systems.

However, in my experience of traveling out of body, through space and time I found, while the body is impermanent and will eventually die; nonetheless, that which can travel out of body, through space and time, lives on, and never dies.  This, I believe is what was referred to in the suttas as the deathless (amatta), and I also believe it is precisely the 'eternal life' (aiōnios αἰώνιος eternal, zōē ζωὴ life) that is referred to in the Gospels.

Thank you for shedding light on that. I was wondering, how does "anatta" work with this? From modern commentary (which might be wrong), it is about 'no self'... Does this mean that when you shed the layers of the ego and reach the deathless, that is not considered 'self' since it is already union with the Divine?

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I am getting intense shivers of joy as well as mini-orgasms. I feel that when I keep my posture straight and relaxed, it never feels to bring a wave of pure orgasm from my back up my neck and into my head area. I am usually not meditating when this happens. This orgasm permeates the whole day and I rarely feel tired, although I can still feel fatigue of my body (I don't know if this makes sense...)

I was pondering about the meaning of love too. I know it is not limerence or hormone-driven sensations. Perhaps it is the act of surrendering, which brings about bliss and hence is called 'love'. Or perhaps it is about union or yoga, since everything seems connected.

I feel a tiny pressure against my forehead. Also, I do not know if it is some kind of illusion, but sometimes within the ringing charism I seem to imagine some kind of mantra in the background.... like a vast voice with "aum".

Also, I see the various scattered colors of light reflecting off dust in the air... and the surroundings look very vibrant or is tinted by this rainbow-colored static. Maybe it is visual snow.

I tried a different practice... I rotated a little in my swivel chair, then pull my legs up to meditate, so that I can recognize the feel of "spinning" or "rotation". Even though the chair stopped, I felt like 'something' was still rotating or moving. I wonder if this is a good way to understand more about the manomaya? Or is this perhaps just a mind-trick?

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for shedding light on that. I was wondering, how does "anatta" work with this? From modern commentary (which might be wrong), it is about 'no self'... Does this mean that when you shed the layers of the ego and reach the deathless, that is not considered 'self' since it is already union with the Divine?

While I can see how it can be confusing, it is important to keep in mind that deathless (amatta) is not anatta (no-self).  These are two separate terms, that are only related, because when one arrives at deathless (amatta), one has also arrived at anatta (no-self).

I am getting intense shivers of joy as well as mini-orgasms. I feel that when I keep my posture straight and relaxed, it never feels to bring a wave of pure orgasm from my back up my neck and into my head area. I am usually not meditating when this happens. This orgasm permeates the whole day and I rarely feel tired, although I can still feel fatigue of my body (I don't know if this makes sense...)

Congratulations you have successfully given rise to the kundalini, which is also understood as 'energy' and is called 'virya' in the suttas.

I was pondering about the meaning of love too. I know it is not limerence or hormone-driven sensations. Perhaps it is the act of surrendering, which brings about bliss and hence is called 'love'. Or perhaps it is about union or yoga, since everything seems connected.

Yes, I agree, the universal love that one who meditates deeply feels, might be the 'bliss' that is described by most mystics.  It also suggests that the term 'love' used in the Gospels, might just be this feeling of universal love that is also called 'bliss.'

I feel a tiny pressure against my forehead. Also, I do not know if it is some kind of illusion, but sometimes within the ringing charism I seem to imagine some kind of mantra in the background.... like a vast voice with "aum".

The pressure in the forehead of one who meditates deeply is the opening of the third eye, which is also known as the 7th chakra.

Also, I see the various scattered colors of light reflecting off dust in the air... and the surroundings look very vibrant or is tinted by this rainbow-colored static. Maybe it is visual snow.

If it is purely optical in nature, as you have described it, then it is not a charism; however, some mystics describe a luminosity that life takes on when one learns to meditate deeply.  This is a charism.

I tried a different practice... I rotated a little in my swivel chair, then pull my legs up to meditate, so that I can recognize the feel of "spinning" or "rotation". Even though the chair stopped, I felt like 'something' was still rotating or moving. I wonder if this is a good way to understand more about the manomaya? Or is this perhaps just a mind-trick?

Perhaps it will work for you, and others.

[bodhimind]

The pressure on my forehead goes on and off...

Also I've been getting quite intense dreams (half-lucid like)...

Today I woke up two times in the middle of my dreams.

The first time was a very intense electric shock that bolted through my body. It came together with a vision where I touched a power source and it sent this strong pulse through my body. I bolted awake, then when I looked upwards into where my "third eye" could be, I saw the same visions of very clear images.

I could not read the writing. It looked a little like "rune language"... A little like Germanic runes. I had no prior exposure to this and had to look it up on google based on suspicion, similar to the sanskrit I saw in a kaleidoscope like spectral in a previous vision (a few months ago). Then I tried to change the images that surfaced up and they dissolved into a blur-like sphere.

I am not aware of what happened next as I seem to have lost the memory... or perhaps fell unconscious again.

The second was when I started crying and woke up, after hearing a sentence from someone who could have been a father to me (he felt like a father) and it was so real. It went something like "you have to change yourself first before trying to change the world".

[Jhanananda]

The pressure on my forehead goes on and off...

In the beginning for most of us mystics the charisms will go off and on randomly until we consistently deepen the depth of our meditation experience.

Also I've been getting quite intense dreams (half-lucid like)...

Today I woke up two times in the middle of my dreams.

We can expect that for one who consistently meditates to depth.

The first time was a very intense electric shock that bolted through my body. It came together with a vision where I touched a power source and it sent this strong pulse through my body.

In my experience one can indeed experience very powerful kundalini rises during a "dream" as you described.  Often the mind attempts to interpret that experience as in something that one might be familiar with, such as: a burn or an electrical shock.

I bolted awake, then when I looked upwards into where my "third eye" could be, I saw the same visions of very clear images.

I could not read the writing. It looked a little like "rune language"... A little like Germanic runes. I had no prior exposure to this and had to look it up on google based on suspicion, similar to the sanskrit

I too have had many lucid dreams and OOBEs since I was a teenager that contained various written languages, such as Sanskrit.  Interestingly I would often be able to read it in the dream/OOBE, but not be able to do so in the waking state.

I saw in a kaleidoscope like spectral in a previous vision (a few months ago). Then I tried to change the images that surfaced up and they dissolved into a blur-like sphere.

I found the spheroids, and kaleidoscopes and also tunnels of light generally were on either side of an OOBE, either as I am lifting out, or returning to the body.

The second was when I started crying and woke up, after hearing a sentence from someone who could have been a father to me (he felt like a father) and it was so real. It went something like "you have to change yourself first before trying to change the world".

Yes, I too have had many lucid dreams and OOBEs where I met a wise person and/or father or mother figure who imparted wisdom to me.  Often these lucid dreams and OOBEs would end with deep sobbing.

[bodhimind]

In my experience one can indeed experience very powerful kundalini rises during a "dream" as you described.  Often the mind attempts to interpret that experience as in something that one might be familiar with, such as: a burn or an electrical shock.

That might explain why my body felt jolted, yet as if it was filled with vigor. It felt a bit like I was zapped by an electrical shock throughout my body, perhaps up my spine to my crown. I do not know if this is of any significance, but I touched the battery-like thing in my dream with my right hand. Then the shock was instantaneous.

I too have had many lucid dreams and OOBEs since I was a teenager that contained various written languages, such as Sanskrit.  Interestingly I would often be able to read it in the dream/OOBE, but not be able to do so in the waking state.

That is strange... perhaps I was too affected by the shock that all I could relate to were the images flashing. Maybe I need to be more lucid and absorbed to be able to understand what they meant. Is this memory that surfaced from the collective unconscious perhaps? Or would it indicate prior exposure in a past life?

I found the spheroids, and kaleidoscopes and also tunnels of light generally were on either side of an OOBE, either as I am lifting out, or returning to the body.

That explains it! I think I might have been returning to my body. Now that I recall, perhaps the jolt came along with myself snapping back into my body, which explains why I felt a sudden weight increase.

Yes, I too have had many lucid dreams and OOBEs where I met a wise person and/or father or mother figure who imparted wisdom to me.  Often these lucid dreams and OOBEs would end with deep sobbing.

Yes, it is strange though, because I recently learnt this lesson perhaps a year ago. Recurring themes seem to appear in a person's life... is it true?

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I was pondering over the concept of amatta, and realized that if there is no-self... Then where do all the individualities come from? If there is no-self, wouldn't it be that all beings came from this same Deathless? And also, wouldn't this mean that everyone is one and the same? Like, I am meeting myself, talking to myself, seeing myself everywhere... It is as if the whole cosmos was a hall of mirrors, and everything is reflected in different manners, but the source is the same... And just like how a system in physics returns to a net balance in energy, it might also seem that all the many conditions moving around in the cosmos are all about bringing a certain balance.

Also, I have been consistently trying to do lying-down meditation instead of "giving up to unconsciousness" in sleep. I find that part of when I slept in the past, I tend to allow myself to become 'unconscious' and knock myself out, so that I can go into the deep sleep process. When this happens, I am never lucid. When I did lying-down meditation, I did not manage to rise out of my body. However, it gave rise to intense dreams. It gives me the impression as if I was treading water, and my face was rising out of the water (lucidity) and then falling back down as I drown (in unconsciousness).

I was wondering, how the sleep cycles reconcile with our trips into the dream spaces. According to observations in studies, we get visions/dream experiences when we hit the REM phase, noted by rapid eye movement. Sleep paralysis holds the body down so that we don't thrash around in dreams. Then after a while, we go back into the non-REM phase. The funny thing is that sleep revolves in between REM and non-REM phases. I was wondering if this also means that we leave and re-enter the dream space multiple times during the span of a night's rest. One thing that was curious was that my eyes were obviously not flickering around when I had those spectral-like kaleidoscopes. Perhaps I returned back to my body at that point. I looked upwards and it seemed as if the place where the 'third eye' is said to be feels like a mental screen.

Pardon me for going on and on again with so many questions... I find myself so restless as my whole mind thinking about these experiences. I have been thinking of this for the whole day.

[Jhanananda]

Is this memory that surfaced from the collective unconscious perhaps? Or would it indicate prior exposure in a past life?

In my case it was recollection of previous lifetimes.  Perhaps it was in your case as well.

Yes, it is strange though, because I recently learnt this lesson perhaps a year ago. Recurring themes seem to appear in a person's life... is it true?

Yes, as long as there is something to be learned, then those lessons are often repeated as long as we need them.

I was pondering over the concept of amatta, and realized that if there is no-self... Then where do all the individualities come from? If there is no-self, wouldn't it be that all beings came from this same Deathless? And also, wouldn't this mean that everyone is one and the same? Like, I am meeting myself, talking to myself, seeing myself everywhere... It is as if the whole cosmos was a hall of mirrors, and everything is reflected in different manners, but the source is the same... And just like how a system in physics returns to a net balance in energy, it might also seem that all the many conditions moving around in the cosmos are all about bringing a certain balance.

The problem here is I have never met a Buddhist priest or meditation teacher who understood meditation, nor samadhi; which would explain why none of them seem to understand anatta.  Anatta is a term that refers to the non-dual experience of deep meditation, which Buddhist priests and meditation teachers never seem to experience.  All 8 stages of samadhi are relative experiences of non-dualism.  When one has fully traversed the 8 stages of samadhi, then one has arrived at the deathless, which is fully non-dual, or devoid of a sense of self.

Also, I have been consistently trying to do lying-down meditation instead of "giving up to unconsciousness" in sleep. I find that part of when I slept in the past, I tend to allow myself to become 'unconscious' and knock myself out, so that I can go into the deep sleep process. When this happens, I am never lucid. When I did lying-down meditation, I did not manage to rise out of my body. However, it gave rise to intense dreams. It gives me the impression as if I was treading water, and my face was rising out of the water (lucidity) and then falling back down as I drown (in unconsciousness).

This is a pretty good metaphor.  The deeper you meditate on a consistent basis then more lucid your sleep state will be.

I was wondering, how the sleep cycles reconcile with our trips into the dream spaces. According to observations in studies, we get visions/dream experiences when we hit the REM phase, noted by rapid eye movement. Sleep paralysis holds the body down so that we don't thrash around in dreams. Then after a while, we go back into the non-REM phase. The funny thing is that sleep revolves in between REM and non-REM phases. I was wondering if this also means that we leave and re-enter the dream space multiple times during the span of a night's rest. One thing that was curious was that my eyes were obviously not flickering around when I had those spectral-like kaleidoscopes. Perhaps I returned back to my body at that point. I looked upwards and it seemed as if the place where the 'third eye' is said to be feels like a mental screen.

Pardon me for going on and on again with so many questions... I find myself so restless as my whole mind thinking about these experiences. I have been thinking of this for the whole day.

The problem with making any comparisons between sleep, and/or the experience of deep meditation; and research into meditation and the experience of deep meditation, is no researcher has ever studied anyone who meditates deeply, so we have to just ignore that research until we can conduct that research ourselves on the subjects who have learned to meditate deeply.