Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => OOBE => : jay.validus August 10, 2015, 01:17:31 AM
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I write quite a bit on dreams and OOB's in this forum, so to streamline future posts I am writing most of those topics on this thread.
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I wanted to share this common theme that seems to be quite prevalent in my dreams the past week: drug use. It is not about a craving towards any intoxicant. Rather, I am experiencing the effect of cannabis and other psychedelics in my dreams, in a very vivid state of awareness.
Two key examples of this: First, I was walking through downtown in dangerous places, relishing in my exploring, but I was very high and could not fully defend myself as necessary; Second, in my dreams I am at times on a psychedelic trip, and is very nonsensical. One example is in my dream, I took this synthetic drug, not sure what, with the purpose to understand the use of consciousness after bodily death.
There are times the depth of the experience is lost to me when I wake up. What is interesting is I am not currently consuming any intoxicants that would produce such an experience. It is just happening. I have never been a huge drug tripper. I have had my cannabis phase, and I used to drink like a horse. But these substances are not largely a part of my life anymore, save a couple beers with family or friends the odd time.
It has nothing to do about any cravings or desire, rather it is just happening, and it is very vivid and intense. I am not scared. It is interesting, but I do not get why it is happening. Is my subconscious trying to tell me something? And why? I observe it, I ponder it, I move on, and it is interesting.
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Thank-you, Jay, for posting honestly regarding your dream content. Many of my lucid dreams, and OOBEs, especially in the early days, had such drug associations, even though I was clean and sober. I interpret this as the mind attempting to make sense of the charismatic phenomena of the OOBE, which can parallel the psychedelic experience enough that one can interpret it as a psychedelic-like experience.
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I want to master awareness during my sleep cycle. In my eyes, mastery is awareness of your entire sleep cycle, from laying down to getting up, and of what one experiences therein. This has been very difficult. I have forgotten more lucid and vivid dreams than most people have in a lifetime, but I am not satisfied. There are layers upon layers of the mind that can easily be seen in deep states. There is a whole other reality I am choosing to bring awareness towards.
Let's look at where I am at presently. I have always dreamt every night since childhood. Vividness has increased since then. In a given week, I can expect two to five vivid or lucid dream experience. Experience with the black ebbs and flows... I have noticed that this coincides with the moon cycle. Sometimes I may be sleeping, than randomly just become aware for a while. I have been at the point for a year and half where dreams are real, I have no doubts.
Out-of-body experiences have happened. The last time a demon came to help me. He said get up as you move your arms across your legs. It worked. There has always been so much fear, and I do not know why. Yes, with awareness during the sleep cycle, but just in general in my life. I don't understand why it is there, as I have proven to myself many times over I have physical and emotional strength.
I don't want fear to be my centre anymore, but at the same time, I want to embrace my primal nature, the parts of our human psyche free from fear. I cannot become a whole person ignoring whole parts of who I am. This is difficult. It is like there is a locked door inside myself, and the person on the other side either will not come out, or something else in my mind is preventing it from coming out. Fear.
I don't know what will happen if I unleash my true potential. I know I am sick of being less of what I can achieve just because I am my biggest obstacle. Sometimes the world starts to feel like it is not real, I get dizzy, but not in the many ways it has manifested before. I don't lose balance. A friend helped me one time, and she said relax. I relax now when this happens.
I will conquer this, I am just tired of spending my whole life going through this already. There is no need. I can live without fear. I can change without being scared.
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I tend to stay aware of the moon cycles and phases (we're headed towards a solar eclipse on Sept 13, at the waxing square now; then a total lunar eclipse on the 28th. I see people all around me already feeling the eclipse), and find it is a useful tool for staying aware and observant of the ebbs and flows of life. I can't say much to correlate the moon phases with my dream state because I'm not aware enough how they correspond, but I can say meditation seems to have a certain quality during the balsamic moon phases (aka the dark of the moon, the several days preceding the new moon each month) or during the void-of-course moon, which is when the moon is astrologically no longer making any more aspects to other planets/celestial bodies before changing zodiac signs, and happens at different times throughout the month. There are other times, for instance the moon in water or making certain aspects, but anyway it just often feels easier to 'slip away' at those times; the reins of the mind and emotions are much looser. I'm not a master meditator or even necessarily that good at it, so this is just my limited personal experience. I'd be interested in how the moon cycles work for you. I think tying that into dream journaling would be interesting.
I also have found the intensity and vividness of my dreams increases with the depth of meditation I'm able to reach during the day. At times when my practice is a little stagnant, which it often is, I have trouble remembering my dream state, but when I am consistently letting go to depth for days at a time, my dreams have been hyper-real and often shockingly vivid. So for me personally I've found the vividness of my dream state has mirrored what I am able to give towards my meditation. I can only see myself being completely aware during the sleep cycle when I have totally given myself to the meditative lifestyle, which I haven't been able to manage yet. I'm going to add moon data to my journaling though, I think.
About fear, I think the only way to deal with that is to continually face it. It's constrictive. For me it has helped to have a one-pointed goal, which in effect cuts right through whatever I may be throwing up to obstruct or defend myself, and that one-pointed goal is to just sit, and meditate.
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I want to master awareness during my sleep cycle. In my eyes, mastery is awareness of your entire sleep cycle, from laying down to getting up, and of what one experiences therein.
Yes, I agree, because this is how it works for me.
This has been very difficult. I have forgotten more lucid and vivid dreams than most people have in a lifetime, but I am not satisfied. There are layers upon layers of the mind that can easily be seen in deep states. There is a whole other reality I am choosing to bring awareness towards.
Let's look at where I am at presently. I have always dreamt every night since childhood. Vividness has increased since then. In a given week, I can expect two to five vivid or lucid dream experience. Experience with the black ebbs and flows... I have noticed that this coincides with the moon cycle. Sometimes I may be sleeping, than randomly just become aware for a while. I have been at the point for a year and half where dreams are real, I have no doubts.
Out-of-body experiences have happened. The last time a demon came to help me. He said get up as you move your arms across your legs. It worked. There has always been so much fear, and I do not know why. Yes, with awareness during the sleep cycle, but just in general in my life. I don't understand why it is there, as I have proven to myself many times over I have physical and emotional strength.
Lucidity takes practice, and we may find help in unexpected places.
I don't want fear to be my centre anymore, but at the same time, I want to embrace my primal nature, the parts of our human psyche free from fear. I cannot become a whole person ignoring whole parts of who I am. This is difficult. It is like there is a locked door inside myself, and the person on the other side either will not come out, or something else in my mind is preventing it from coming out. Fear.
I don't know what will happen if I unleash my true potential. I know I am sick of being less of what I can achieve just because I am my biggest obstacle. Sometimes the world starts to feel like it is not real, I get dizzy, but not in the many ways it has manifested before. I don't lose balance. A friend helped me one time, and she said relax. I relax now when this happens.
I will conquer this, I am just tired of spending my whole life going through this already. There is no need. I can live without fear. I can change without being scared.
Fear and anxiety are core problems, which we tend to overcome with continued diligent practice. Relaxation is also a core skill that one needs to develop for progress. So, you are doing well, and just keep moving forward.
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I came home to nap after work. I laid down at 6 o'clock and now it is close to 10. I am so sick of feeling tired all the time. During my nap, I lost consciousness for the first hour, coming partially to awareness a few times. The last two hours I did not succumb to unconsciousness . I just laid there thinking I was not asleep. Despite that, still I felt the heaviness of sleep in my eyes, spine, and extremities. It was intense, and I did not feel any desire to move. That said, I could move if needed to switch positions.
Lots of deeper thoughts came to the forefront. Things like fears, deeper emotions, and deeper desires. Sometimes it gets very intense. I am scared of going to sleep. If I look back at my life, always if I couldn't pass out right away I would keep myself up doing something. Why? I would just lay there, completely aware, feeling rested, but my mind races with so many unpleasant thoughts, emotions, and fears. Sleep is not even relaxing! I've learned to lay there for a while, then switch position because I will then pass out.
I realized I needed to start applying some principles I learned with my meditation practice to my sleep (took long enough). With that said, the magnitude of dealing with deeper aspects of the self is much more difficult sleeping than while I am awake. Letting go in sleep feels like a decent in hell, a decent in madness (Then day comes and the light comes back! Christian stories, how they give me strength, my partial family religious heritage) . Self-talk barely works, except with a few key insights I have had during my life said at the right moment, like saying relax, it's all good
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On the week-end, I got four hours sleep on Saturday. I was having this dream, I believe set in the 40s, I lived on quite a nice property with my then wife. Soliders starting attacking, and we tired to run away. One of them caught me, we fought, and the gun went off under my chin. It was quite painful but quick. This happened three times. I realized now, they probably raped that woman, my wife in this dream.
It's not that these "bad" dreams are difficult. Actually, I have no trouble with them at all. Images or sensations don't bother me. I hope I am not rambling at this point, I guess I just needed to get it off my chest. I am just tired and not getting enough rest.
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I tend to stay aware of the moon cycles and phases (we're headed towards a solar eclipse on Sept 13, at the waxing square now; then a total lunar eclipse on the 28th.
Hey Zach! Thanks for replying to my post. Interesting to read your experiences on the moon phases. I noticed on new moon (is that balsamic moon? Never heard that term before) that my mind is not as fluid. It feels more dense. The physical world feels more real at this time, and it some way it can be very relaxing because of that fact. I see a couch, and it's just a couch. I can feel so relaxed and at peace. When a full moon comes around, my mind gets more fluid. At this time the spiritual world becomes more real. This is a time when I could look at a couch, and it not the couch, its the perception of the couch. Let go of that perception and you become an empty vessel. I become less real. I always feel the higher in the mind I go the more icy and mechanical it becomes. Sometimes it is lots of fun to discover, other times it has become too intense for me because I don't know what I am looking at or what I am experiencing.
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Yes, Jay, sorry to read you have some work to do on your psyche, but we all do. Yes, applying what you have learned in meditation to your sleep cycle is skillful means.
Interesting dream sequence. It sounds like a recovered previous lifetime. When you are done with reviewing that one, and you continue to develop deep meditation practice, then there is likely to be more recovered previous lifetime material in your sleep state.
Good work.
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Sounds pretty intense Jay, lot's of stuff deep rooted coming out in the dreams, i have a suspision that this occurs more and more as you get more aware of your dreams. It may be an idea to do "reality checks" throughout the day such as checking your hands or a clock face as both are obscured in dreams, pinching your nose and trying to breathe if you can your dreaming or just pinch your self to see if there is any pain, if not your dreaming. The dream world is a bizzare and crazy place! This has allowed me to become lucid when i have practiced it throughout the day as it becomes habit. I had a fairly intense lucid dream which felt as real as waking reality by doing this.
I fell out of my bed, tried turning on the light switch but it wasent working so i went over to the lava lamp but it was a pile of gold and red feathers, realising i was dreaming i span around ( a way meant to make your dreams more stable) then pinched my nose and tried to breathe to confirm. I then went through my bedroom wall, it felt like going through those foam rollers at a fun park soft play area from when your a kid, and i came out above the clouds despite being on the ground floor. Flew around for a while and was jumping in and out of clouds until i saw the earth which looked like colored sections for each continent, aka europe green, america red etc, then a dove flew by me and i was moved by its beauty then i lost control and woke up hah, was the most lucid dream i have ever had and was awesome, you can feel the water droplets on your face as you dive between clouds etc.
Most of my dreams follow the theme of fire breathing T-rex's (!?!), giant robots chasing me around places like brazilian favelas, training with UFC/MMA fighters or having an MMA fight, my old village and my friends from primary school.
A reocurring dream i have had since childhood is looking from this exact position (http://explorethecoast.org/userdata/waypoints/waypointgallery/Welcombe%20Mouth%20%28Medium%29.JPG) (this is a beach from my childhood - 18, still live near and its very close to my heart) and seeing huge waves with a huge moon illuminating them from behind, and when wave forms i see the silluoetes of all types of sea creatures such as whales, squid, sharks etc. Although it has changed recently from that to being at that beach and there being pure, clear see through water and killer whales swimming underneath the surface. There is a strange type of awareness in these dreams for instance as i was always dreaming about it was telling my family in a dream that i always dream of killer whales whilst dreaming of killer whales, and a type of ironic humor about it all but not quite lucid enough to make sense of what was going on hah, very bizzare!
A dream i reflected on recently was climbing up this hill, again in the old village, and badgers being there, which i percieved as a threat. I was climbing up and this badger ran up and came face to face with me, i then dropped a giant stone on it and tried to run but woke up. Interesting that it was a percieved threat, but when looking back i realise they were not being aggresive at all, also in school my nickname used to be badger, maybe about trying to destroy an old identification. Who knows, dreams are so very odd.
I wish you luck with you awareness in sleep Jay, it is something that im interested in as well but im just going to let it develop naturally as my sati during the day gets bettter and better and my meditations get deeper.
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Thanks Jeffrey. Yup, nobody is perfect.
Thanks PD for sharing the stories. To be honest, I find the reality checks don't work for me. Meditation has been the biggest help in awareness during the sleep cycle.
Your dream of the killer whales and telling your family about it, I feel the same way at times. If only we could share what we internally experience to those close to us, but our words cannot do justice. Nobody who does not experience it deeply will understand, and sometimes labels and judgements will come if you share something too soon to another. Although, everyone had ideas of reality and God, and all people do have some form of spiritual experiences nonetheless.
About your dove dream, yeah I find if I stop surrendering to the experience, then it falls flat too. Shitty deals, eh? (That's the Canadian in me coming out). My content is not like yours, with fighting and fire-breathing t-rexes. It usually relates to the nature of reality in some form, and I watch as a part of myself is cataloguing the experience and trying to understand it. It is like feeling webs upon webs of thoughts work themselves out.
Thanks for the good wishes, I am trying my best to purify myself during my sleep lol!
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Sounds pretty intense Jay, lot's of stuff deep rooted coming out in the dreams, i have a suspision that this occurs more and more as you get more aware of your dreams. It may be an idea to do "reality checks" throughout the day such as checking your hands or a clock face as both are obscured in dreams, pinching your nose and trying to breathe if you can your dreaming or just pinch your self to see if there is any pain, if not your dreaming. The dream world is a bizzare and crazy place! This has allowed me to become lucid when i have practiced it throughout the day as it becomes habit. I had a fairly intense lucid dream which felt as real as waking reality by doing this.
I keep mindfully self-aware as my method of developing lucidity.
I fell out of my bed, tried turning on the light switch but it wasent working so i went over to the lava lamp but it was a pile of gold and red feathers, realising i was dreaming i span around ( a way meant to make your dreams more stable) then pinched my nose and tried to breathe to confirm. I then went through my bedroom wall, it felt like going through those foam rollers at a fun park soft play area from when your a kid, and i came out above the clouds despite being on the ground floor. Flew around for a while and was jumping in and out of clouds until i saw the earth which looked like colored sections for each continent, aka europe green, america red etc, then a dove flew by me and i was moved by its beauty then i lost control and woke up hah, was the most lucid dream i have ever had and was awesome, you can feel the water droplets on your face as you dive between clouds etc.
This was an OOBE, which is beyond lucid dreaming.
A reocurring dream i have had since childhood is looking from this exact position (this is a beach from my childhood - 18, still live near and its very close to my heart) and seeing huge waves with a huge moon illuminating them from behind, and when wave forms i see the silluoetes of all types of sea creatures such as whales, squid, sharks etc. Although it has changed recently from that to being at that beach and there being pure, clear see through water and killer whales swimming underneath the surface. There is a strange type of awareness in these dreams for instance as i was always dreaming about it was telling my family in a dream that i always dream of killer whales whilst dreaming of killer whales, and a type of ironic humor about it all but not quite lucid enough to make sense of what was going on hah, very bizzare!
You may have been a killer whale in a previous lifetime, so your dreams about killer whales might be recalling that lifetime.
I was salmon in a previous lifetime, so I have had many lucid dreams of being a salmon.
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Jay your dreams sound far deeper than mine, and very interesting, probably because you are really trying to keep that awareness going throughout your sleep and thus deeper elements of the self get exposed if your more aware. Interesting to hear others experiences as many of my friends and workmates state that they dont dream at all, which im assuming is simply them not remembering their dreams very well.
How do you Jay and Jeff remain aware whilst asleep, when sleeping it's more like everything is shutting down, i guess there is a level of awareness beyond the body and mind which sleeps, which would make sense. A few times i have been aware of my body and brain shutting down but the recognition of that odd state kind of jolts me out of it, so i can see how it would be possible with training. Actually just typing that reminded me of when i was having a debate with my friends who i lived with recently, they believed that it was impossible to walk around the village without thinking, they also thought it impossible to count to 30 without thinking mentally which somewhat blew my mind as they all train their bodies to achieve greater levels of control and prowess so why not the mind!? Anyway i have digressed.
Jeff, i must say your comment about being a Killer Whale in a previous lifetime made me chuckle quite alot, although im sure if you had that intention. I never even considered that tbh. Does any dream which becomes sufficently lucid automatically become an OOBE?
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Jay your dreams sound far deeper than mine, and very interesting, probably because you are really trying to keep that awareness going throughout your sleep and thus deeper elements of the self get exposed if your more aware. Interesting to hear others experiences as many of my friends and workmates state that they dont dream at all, which im assuming is simply them not remembering their dreams very well.
Yes, most people dream, they just do not recall them. My father thought he did not dream either, because he could not recall them.
How do you Jay and Jeff remain aware whilst asleep, when sleeping it's more like everything is shutting down, i guess there is a level of awareness beyond the body and mind which sleeps, which would make sense. A few times i have been aware of my body and brain shutting down but the recognition of that odd state kind of jolts me out of it, so i can see how it would be possible with training. Actually just typing that reminded me of when i was having a debate with my friends who i lived with recently, they believed that it was impossible to walk around the village without thinking, they also thought it impossible to count to 30 without thinking mentally which somewhat blew my mind as they all train their bodies to achieve greater levels of control and prowess so why not the mind!? Anyway i have digressed.
Becoming fully lucid in the sleep state is just a natural "fruit" of the contemplative life for those who learn to meditate deeply. It was known in the suttas as 'amatta' the deathless, because it was believed at the time of Siddhartha Gautama that the dream world was where we went when we died, so one who was fully lucid in the dream state, is one who has arrived at the deathless. I happen to agree.
Jeff, i must say your comment about being a Killer Whale in a previous lifetime made me chuckle quite alot, although im sure if you had that intention. I never even considered that tbh. Does any dream which becomes sufficently lucid automatically become an OOBE?
Yes, but the degree of lucidity has to be greater than the waking state, so that one is hyper-aware, or super conscious.
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Greetings.
This was an interesting experience. I went to sleep early at 8, right after mediating and passed out. I woke up at 1, decided to meditate another hour, and then laid down for a couple hours till I drifted deeper to sleep.
I awoke several times in my dream. My apartment was black, the lights wouldn't turn on, and the stove clock read differently each time. One time it was 8 'clock, another it was 1:30. Another time was 11:11, somehow regarded as a spiritual number in New Age circles... I think it's bullshit to be honest. Eventually I realized I was formless. I had thought I had died, especially after going through so many sequences and not be able to wake my body up. I accepted I died.
Then, the fun parts began. I decided to jump out my room. This is where I started to note some interesting things. I wondered why certain parts of my vision was so clear, but if I turned my head it was blurry or dark. Shifting between the black and dream environments/OOB's has happened many times before, but not when I turn my head left it is black, but I turn it back to the environment it is lush, clear, and vivid again. At one place I visited it was winter and cold. Usually if my dreams are cold like this, I am cold while sleeping and I would just wake myself up to put the covers on. This time I just accepted the cold, and I felt liberation.
There was also another part, where I was meeting a certain aspect of my personality. He was middle-aged and what I considered ugly. It was the sexual passion-filled part of myself, but he lived in a posh home with his partner living a content existence. When I entered his home, I saw my reflection, and it was me -- black hair, hazel eyes, athletic build. I was told, and I cannot remember the word used, that I was the glue that held the entire personality together. A few other parts made there notice to me through some symbols, and I caught one of their names, Querl or Quill.
I finally woke up and realized I was deep in sleep.
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Lucid dreaming often provides insightful content, as your dream here did.
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I tend to stay aware of the moon cycles and phases (we're headed towards a solar eclipse on Sept 13, at the waxing square now; then a total lunar eclipse on the 28th.
Hey Zach! Thanks for replying to my post. Interesting to read your experiences on the moon phases. I noticed on new moon (is that balsamic moon? Never heard that term before) that my mind is not as fluid. It feels more dense. The physical world feels more real at this time, and it some way it can be very relaxing because of that fact. I see a couch, and it's just a couch. I can feel so relaxed and at peace. When a full moon comes around, my mind gets more fluid. At this time the spiritual world becomes more real. This is a time when I could look at a couch, and it not the couch, its the perception of the couch. Let go of that perception and you become an empty vessel. I become less real. I always feel the higher in the mind I go the more icy and mechanical it becomes. Sometimes it is lots of fun to discover, other times it has become too intense for me because I don't know what I am looking at or what I am experiencing.
The balsamic moon is the period right before the new moon, the waning crescent. The new moon would be the distinct shift when the Sun and Moon conjunct each other. The coming eclipse I mentioned is on the exact degree of my own natal moon in Virgo and opposite my Pisces ascendant, so I am feeling it particularly acutely. It feels like a giant force homing in on me. What will come after it, I have little clue.
Sorry, don't mean to take away from the dream subject.
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Well, I neglected to say both the balsamic and new moon period are within the 'dark of the moon.' That contributes to the feeling of down-time you describe; the balsamic period just has more of a quality of drifting finality, the new moon a similar mood but inchoate and fresh, with the sense that certain unconscious rhythms have birthed that will come to a crescendo with the full moon, which is like you say, a time of heightened sensitivities.
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How interesting Zach. I remember I met a woman once who said she tried to plan out new projects with a new moon. I am finding that I should allow the rhythms to unfold by the moon, and by doing that I can gain better understanding of what energy rushes through me.
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(Hope I don't digress, but just found the topic interesting) I know the planetary bodies definitely have an effect on the matter of our physical bodies, that is for sure. For example, the moon draws waters on our Earth upwards, so if it has such a huge impact, it certainly has a huge impact on our bodies, which are 70% composed of water. Also, solar flares seem to have correlation with health issues and certain patterns in society. I know some yogi traditions highly value the cycles of the moon and the sun. I also find that on certain days, I tend to have more energy and others not as much - perhaps the cyclical hormones do fluctuate along with the cycles of gravitational forces, however "minute" scientists claim them to be. The moon, for one, holds huge significance for me. If it can raise the tides, it can certainly present an effect on any organism on Earth as well.
Do you think that astrology (planetary positions etc) is essential for being a better and more adaptive mystic? I'm pretty much a beginner in all of this, so perhaps you could post a direction on how one can learn more about it, if it is useful?
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Personally, I'm not interested in a scientific explanation of why or how it works. I'm not able to sustain that kind of thinking for very long and I find it hard to have many stated beliefs, because in the end, I just don't know. It is something far beyond me.
That said, it is a very worthwhile mystery to immerse yourself in. It doesn't seem to me it's necessary for the mystic lifestyle, but it sure helps. If you want a map to your psychology and interactions with others (among many other things), it is the most direct route, though it can also lead to obsessive navel-gazing. Astrology itself doesn't solve anything, it's simply an approach to awareness. You must then act on what you have become aware of, and I see that as leading in the direction of building a solid ethical core to operate from, and for those up to the challenge (all of us here), the deep meditative & contemplative experience to untangle and shed our entrenched narratives, compulsions, habitual defense mechanisms, and so on.
Sorry jay, you shouldn't have said the word 'moon'! We should probably move this from your personal thread.
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Well said, Zack. While Astrology offers some interesting insights and interpretations, it is likely that little of it was ever developed by mystics.
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I had an interesting lucid dream last night. I figured out how to make images clear in my dreams on command. It was like working a muscle. I felt very intense pressure in my brow. Usually this would scare me, but I decided to accept it without fear and pushed forward. I was directing myself towards people in my life finding them in the dream world. It was a couple co-workers and I tried to find my combat instructor, although that fell flat. It seems like my awareness is getting deeper and deeper in my psyche. I heard the sounds of beautiful high pitched wind-chimes I turned my attention toward. Near the end I was making the floating/rotation my object of meditation, remembering Jeffery mentioned this in a previous post somewhere on the forums. It was very interesting, but today I feel exhausted and very out-of-my-body.
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It sounds like you are making progress, Jay. The intense sensation in your brow was most probably the opening of the 7th chakra, which is also called the third eye. I recall when it opened for me it was quite intense, almost painful.
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I am curious over a pattern I have noticed. I find dream imagery, or even when you observe deeper parts of your subconscious, it seems to communicate in metaphor. Obviously, right? I don't just mean in the obvious. Yes, I have taken notice of the 'knowing' and seen how those contents then translate into something completely random, in some effort to create understanding.
What has really caught my interest is seeing how this might be more multi-layered than I previous thought. There could be one layer the subconscious taking a 'knowing' and translating its contents into random imagery, and then another layer doing that same thing with that exact same content, but producing a complete different set of imagery. Those two different conceptions can then interact with each other, influencing the ultimate experience that waking "I" experiences.
Let's use a dream as an example. There was random dream imagery of my elementary gym, my kung fu mates and instructor. There was even my instructor's teacher, who I have never met, but he had a distinct feel. I told him I was sorry I was so quiet, and he replied it is alright because he centres himself there too. It ended with my kung fu instructor telling me about my death... I was punched twice, fell on my stomach, was kicked on my back, and then I was set on fire. I started to relive this burning, I was terrified to experience the burning of my flesh, and screamed, "Why are you showing me this?"
Now, underneath this dream there was a whole array of memories of a war I fought in the 1800s. I recall being sent to the next battle, which became my ultimate death as mentioned above. I ended up flying over this great stone wall in a forest to a platform, where this ball of light entered, I followed suit, and got to the black, but it was very different than all my previous experiences. It really was nothing, neither perception nor non-perception. I am not sure it was the 8th Jhana, if I am using Gotama's classification system of absorption, but I did definitely notice a difference from the black in all my previous experiences. The black it seems infinite but I find I can still centre myself. Here, I could not even centre myself. There was no mind activity in this place.
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I am curious over a pattern I have noticed. I find dream imagery, or even when you observe deeper parts of your subconscious, it seems to communicate in metaphor. Obviously, right? I don't just mean in the obvious. Yes, I have taken notice of the 'knowing' and seen how those contents then translate into something completely random, in some effort to create understanding.
What has really caught my interest is seeing how this might be more multi-layered than I previous thought. There could be one layer the subconscious taking a 'knowing' and translating its contents into random imagery, and then another layer doing that same thing with that exact same content, but producing a complete different set of imagery. Those two different conceptions can then interact with each other, influencing the ultimate experience that waking "I" experiences.
From my experience there are metaphors and there are actually data acquired in the sleep state. One just has to learn to decipher those dreams later, which often requires an understanding of the superior fruit of spiritual attainment. For instance, an OOBE is not a metaphor for anything. It is an actual experience.
Let's use a dream as an example. There was random dream imagery of my elementary gym, my kung fu mates and instructor. There was even my instructor's teacher, who I have never met, but he had a distinct feel. I told him I was sorry I was so quiet, and he replied it is alright because he centres himself there too. It ended with my kung fu instructor telling me about my death... I was punched twice, fell on my stomach, was kicked on my back, and then I was set on fire. I started to relive this burning, I was terrified to experience the burning of my flesh, and screamed, "Why are you showing me this?"
Now, underneath this dream there was a whole array of memories of a war I fought in the 1800s. I recall being sent to the next battle, which became my ultimate death as mentioned above. I ended up flying over this great stone wall in a forest to a platform, where this ball of light entered, I followed suit, and got to the black, but it was very different than all my previous experiences.
While this "dream" sequence may have begun on a metaphorical level, it surely led to a recollection of a previous lifetime, which is not a metaphor, but a recollection of an actual experience.
It really was nothing, neither perception nor non-perception. I am not sure it was the 8th Jhana, if I am using Gotama's classification system of absorption, but I did definitely notice a difference from the black in all my previous experiences. The black it seems infinite but I find I can still centre myself. Here, I could not even centre myself. There was no mind activity in this place.
This is a good question. In Sant Matt, they place a none sensory experience between the 4 lower samadhis and the 4 upper samadhis. This happens to follow my experience. So, I take it as a transitional phase between the 4 lower samadhis and the 4 upper samadhis.
Whereas, the deepest level of samadhi that I have run into is where one becomes the totality of the universe, in which all beings, stars, and galaxies are just cells in one's organism. I take this as the 8th samadhi.
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While this "dream" sequence may have begun on a metaphorical level, it surely led to a recollection of a previous lifetime, which is not a metaphor, but a recollection of an actual experience.
Of course it is always the most intense experiences that arise. It would be nice to have some sort of control, like how I have my memories to this life, but I can shift through them on command.
This is a good question. In Sant Matt, they place a none sensory experience between the 4 lower samadhis and the 4 upper samadhis. This happens to follow my experience. So, I take it as a transitional phase between the 4 lower samadhis and the 4 upper samadhis.
Whereas, the deepest level of samadhi that I have run into is where one becomes the totality of the universe, in which all beings, stars, and galaxies are just cells in one's organism. I take this as the 8th samadhi.
How does one best propel themselves forward when in the transitional phase? I find there have been so many times in my life where I am laying down and I feel I can get out of my body, but I go to move and my physical arm just moves. I know I have had some OOB experiences before, but with help and guidance. Why does it feel like I should know what to do, but as I try to do it nothing works? How do I move my spiritual body? (I realize that is not really a question that can be answered on here).
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While this "dream" sequence may have begun on a metaphorical level, it surely led to a recollection of a previous lifetime, which is not a metaphor, but a recollection of an actual experience.
Of course it is always the most intense experiences that arise. It would be nice to have some sort of control, like how I have my memories to this life, but I can shift through them on command.
This is a good question. In Sant Matt, they place a none sensory experience between the 4 lower samadhis and the 4 upper samadhis. This happens to follow my experience. So, I take it as a transitional phase between the 4 lower samadhis and the 4 upper samadhis.
Whereas, the deepest level of samadhi that I have run into is where one becomes the totality of the universe, in which all beings, stars, and galaxies are just cells in one's organism. I take this as the 8th samadhi.
How does one best propel themselves forward when in the transitional phase? I find there have been so many times in my life where I am laying down and I feel I can get out of my body, but I go to move and my physical arm just moves. I know I have had some OOB experiences before, but with help and guidance. Why does it feel like I should know what to do, but as I try to do it nothing works? How do I move my spiritual body? (I realize that is not really a question that can be answered on here).
In my OOBE's there has always been a distinct "pearl" that moves away from me. At first it came with a blue hue from the outer portions of my closed-eyes-view space, that formed a yellow "pearl" in the center of my vision. Both times I have left the body this pearl went away from me into a spiraling tunnel, and somehow i grasped onto it and it took me with.
But, I am also very interested in the response of the Arahants on this matter, although I do not believe it is possible to move the spiritual body outside of the 4th jhana transition to the 5th jhana.
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How does one best propel themselves forward when in the transitional phase? I find there have been so many times in my life where I am laying down and I feel I can get out of my body, but I go to move and my physical arm just moves. I know I have had some OOB experiences before, but with help and guidance. Why does it feel like I should know what to do, but as I try to do it nothing works? How do I move my spiritual body? (I realize that is not really a question that can be answered on here).
This is a difficult question to answer, other than to say, one just moves in the OOBE. I find it best just to learn to enjoy the moment whatever it is, by surrendering to the moment, then we go deeper.
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Thanks for the thoughts on this matter you guys.
I am curious, during a series of vivid dreams and OOB's last night, I had the distinct awareness that I was not the only body my 'soul' inhabited. I could see how this might seem scary to others, but I wasn't.
Another thing I wanted to point out, I think there is a group of souls I have been meeting on the dream planes for quite some time. As I was OOB-ing last night, and brought myself far across the Earth to this grouping of row-housing in the snowy wilderness. I entered one of the buildings and recognized all the people sitting around the table. I felt like we have been meeting for quite a long while, but I did not remember them. I was asking for their names, trying to remember them, but as I did my whole reality broke and I came back to my body. Clearly, using my mind in this state breaks my connection to those planes.
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Yes, as you found, using the cognitive processes while in an OOBE brings it to an end. So, you will develop skill there over time.
Yes, I too have had the experience of meeting the same group of people over time, and there is more than one group that I meet with.
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Thanks for the thoughts on this matter you guys.
I am curious, during a series of vivid dreams and OOB's last night, I had the distinct awareness that I was not the only body my 'soul' inhabited. I could see how this might seem scary to others, but I wasn't.
Another thing I wanted to point out, I think there is a group of souls I have been meeting on the dream planes for quite some time. As I was OOB-ing last night, and brought myself far across the Earth to this grouping of row-housing in the snowy wilderness. I entered one of the buildings and recognized all the people sitting around the table. I felt like we have been meeting for quite a long while, but I did not remember them. I was asking for their names, trying to remember them, but as I did my whole reality broke and I came back to my body. Clearly, using my mind in this state breaks my connection to those planes.
Interesting... This ties back to the Jewish Kabbalah belief that we are fragments of a huge soul, called Adam Kadmon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Kadmon), translated as "original man". There are also "New-age" mystics that believe we rebirth in clusters (the same individuals each lifetime), just that our roles change. Perhaps that is also why the Hindus believe in Atman and how Atman is exactly the same as Brahman. But of course, the Buddha says that the Deathless is beyond Brahma.
After reading this thread, I realized that perhaps I might have been too cognitive in my OOB experience, which snapped me back to the physical body. If I am not wrong, feeling fear during an experience can also snap someone back. Maybe that is why we wake up in cold sweat after a nightmare.
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Interesting... This ties back to the Jewish Kabbalah belief that we are fragments of a huge soul, called Adam Kadmon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Kadmon), translated as "original man"... Perhaps that is also why the Hindus believe in Atman and how Atman is exactly the same as Brahman...
There is also a reference to a "cloud of wisdom" (dharma meghaï) in the Yoga Sutras, and in some Mahayanist texts. In Jewish Kabbalah belief the Adam Kadmon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Kadmon) is said to be made up of "shards of light," and those "shards of light" are the souls of beings, which implies that god is not a single thing, but a collective of things, which are souls. I believe all of these expressions point to the same experience in depth in meditation, and it is recognized as the deepest depth. This happens to support my experience of the deepest levels of meditation that I have experienced on a number of occasions over more than the preceding 40 years.
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I find it interesting how I still have a sense of deep awareness at many times I am sleeping. I partly suspended mediation because of how I internalized the practices in unhealthy ways, partly because I felt I was going insane and needed appropriate balance, and then partly because I needed to curb down my dreams during this healing process.
I had went for a nap in the evening a couple nights ago. A woman came in my dream. She was a young looking 50 year old with short blond hair just past her ears. I was telling her I am not choosing this feeling [the insanity and deep hopelessness] anymore. We walked around a fire in a room. Her dark eyes looked at me and she said not to look at her, otherwise I would not be able to stop. Of course I looked anyway and said the same thing to her, I am not choosing this feeling anymore. I was straining in my eyes to keep my vision clear and it was painful.
I kept coming back to the black trying to awaken, but I just kept dreaming instead. When I was floating in the black, I was holding in a lot of pain and stress. The woman spoke to me in my right ear saying to relax. It is always interesting to see how you can see and feel the sound in this state. She added her form of a joke, saying if I tensed too much I would physically die. It is not true and I knew it, but in a very theatrical way, I shouted how I was safe, and how I have guardians around me to protect me. I ended up seeing a black dog, a hummingbird with a beautiful glow, and other glowing animal spirits surround me as I laid on the couch for my nap.
Near the end of my nap, the woman was helping me leave my body, much to my irksome, although I appreciated how she was there. I was tensing during the process, and once again she kept saying to relax. Eventually I must have, because I left my body. My eyes were in much pain, and I brought my hands and felt them. I thought I was physically straining my eyes and then realized I needed to wake up soon to avoid any damage. My vision was clear in the centre but the peripheral vision was cloudy. Sometimes when lucid dreaming my vision is like this, but sometimes to is completely clear too. I noticed the part of myself creating the environment I was in, changing it from dusk to a clear sunny day, with cars on the road and people walking. It was very cool, but I am not looking to achieve that skill in my life.
I woke up and felt like the world was not real. My physical eyes were in zero pain and I sighed in relief. I called my mother and said what happened. She has had many vivid dreams. She ended up saying, yes it doesn't feel good to fell that, but it was just a dream. You are normal! Everyone dreams, she said.
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Very interesting lucid dream. It shows that you have quite some accomplishment here. Yes, as your dream emphasized, learning to relax is a critical skill to develop for attaining the various superior fruit of attainment.
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Thank you for sharing this Jay, it's quite beautiful.
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You're not in this alone. Although I may be wrong, I've noticed a good correlation with sounds from the "right" ear. A higher pitched audio charism in the right ear, or a whisper in the right ear, has generally been positive experience with me. The left has always been negative. It could be coincidence. Everything has always led to a new understanding, though. For example, last night, and often in the recent months, I hear a higher pitched audio charism in the right ear. This is accompanied with a "feeling" that I should "do" something. It's subtle, but I've learned to listen. I've often imagined that I was invited to join something. I do not know what, not completely, but often it feels, that it has a been the meeting of a friend. Again, accompanied by the "hearing" in the right ear. Reading what I just wrote sounds bat-shit crazy to me, but it is the truth in what I see and feel. I also struggle with this from time to time.
Good luck jay, feel free to talk it out man.
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Yes, Cal, in extreme immediate danger, I too have received warnings in one ear. I have learned to head the warning. So, if you are crazy, then so am I, but this body is alive because of those warnings.
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2 nights ago I noticed a similar feeling and sound, one that I had previously only correlated to the right ear, in the left ear instead. The ear itself may not be a good point in which to make determination, but rather the "sound" itself.
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Yes, I agree, Cal.
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One of the things I am still confused about to this day is how Jay had such attainment...went so far...to run away when he was already "over the hump". He only needed to accept it.
I find myself somewhat envious of his lucidity. I read his experiences and they mirror my own....but only after deep reflection on my part. It seems to me that he had immense clarity...and that itself is a huge blessing, at least from my own viewpoint.
Where something may come to me in a slew of visions, like a frame by frame projector, it seems as though he was watching in 1080p.
I also notice in this thread some discussion of moon cycles that I had not previously read. Zack, perhaps if you have the time or feel motivated, you might share how you have experienced these cycles up to this point? I had seen you mention that you may begin to journal the moon cycle along with your dreams.
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I don't think Jay ran away, he said he just needed a little time to collect himself. It sounded to me like healthy self-knowledge. I'm sure he'll be back.
About the journaling, I don't really do much of it, but I do stay aware of the moon's cycles (as well as what the other planets and celestial bodies are doing) and how I feel and act, and how the people around me do. It helps me stay in the flow of the natural rhythms of life, like checking the weather report. A lot of my observations are maybe too subtle or personal to detail in a simple post, although the planets do also paint in broad, obvious strokes too, and those are learned pretty easily with a little research. Astrology is a vast subject, but also a welcoming one, and a rewarding study, if anyone is interested.
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I don't think Jay ran away, he said he just needed a little time to collect himself. It sounded to me like healthy self-knowledge. I'm sure he'll be back.
About the journaling, I don't really do much of it, but I do stay aware of the moon's cycles (as well as what the other planets and celestial bodies are doing) and how I feel and act, and how the people around me do. It helps me stay in the flow of the natural rhythms of life, like checking the weather report. A lot of my observations are maybe too subtle or personal to detail in a simple post, although the planets do also paint in broad, obvious strokes too, and those are learned pretty easily with a little research. Astrology is a vast subject, but also a welcoming one, and a rewarding study, if anyone is interested.
I am unsure Jay will come back. Before he left he sent me a message saying he was quitting the GWV all-together. Things may change for him, though.
As far as Astrology, there has always been an excuse for not attempting to delve into it (like I see now haha). I suppose I had only hoped you might share a synchronicity or two that you had noticed over a period of time. I had thought it may give some inspiration in this regard, coming from another contemplative. Maybe I'll actually look into it one of these days haha.