Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Case Histories with religious experiences => : bodhimind January 01, 2015, 03:00:59 PM
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Dear All,
I'm new to this forum and I'm really glad to have found it because many of my thoughts seemed to exactly match the information that I've read here. I'll start my meditation experiences.
I'm currently a 23-year-old medical student in Australia and all my life since I was young, I've been thinking that everyone around me seemed to act a little like zombies - if not, puppets on strings attached to conditions. I don't know why, but I felt like the whole world seemed a little rigid of sorts, as if things were already set in motion and all the actors were playing out their own scripts.
I kept asking everyone around me if they thought that way and they would just ask me to hush and just work hard to earn my keep. I even questioned the religions that I was exposed to such as the practice of praying to deities as a form of "Buddhism". It really got me thinking - Does this praying really work? Since nobody could answer me, I decided to find the answers myself. Thank goodness for the Internet. This then spiralled all the way to all my "adventures" in discovering my spirituality.
At one point I was deeply interested at the prospect of self-hypnosis. I was reading all the literature on how people could be placed into a trance and then suggested to do things. This got me thinking - the conscious mind that we think we all have really does not have that much of a control over what we do. It turns out that neuroscience research validated it later, saying that unconscious decisions are made far before a conscious decision can be reached.
I also then delved into courses that had these self-hypnosis tapes. It all started with the Silva Method. I managed to buy the tapes of the original course and at one point of the Alpha meditation (with the three fingers anchoring technique) tape, I grew mindful of my whole body pulsing. This suddenly gave way to a bright shining light. At this point I was a little afraid of the phenomena, so I withdrew. I realized that I couldn't get back that experience no matter how hard I tried after that.
Later on, I got into the wave of the "Law of Attraction" fad. I was thinking, "Could it be possible that our thoughts do create our reality?" I found it a little absurd when the movie The Secret claimed that every thought in a physical brain spiralled to exactly what you'd want. As I investigated further, I realized that it could be possible for the sub/unconscious mind to influence the health of the body and its attitude/habits. In a way, it did influence reality... but only the body, and reality? Certainly not to the point the movie claimed. I was quite dismissive at this point, until I stumbled on Magick.
There is huge literature on Magick itself, so I started out with the Wiccans and traced the origin back to Aleister Crowley. Man, the stories of this man were evil to a new degree. I didn't think much of it at first as I didn't know, but I came across his works. Crowley was a very smart individual apparently and had studied and practiced many different religions, including Buddhism and Taoism. His works were quite interesting - See The Book of the Law (http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm) & Magick Without Tears (http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/). However, due to the nature of secrecy within the "society" he was in, a lot of his work takes time to unravel and decipher. I actually tried some of these practices and it did give me a sense of "euphoria" - such as the Kabbalistic Cross ritual or Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram.
Then I moved on to the Qabbalah, following the lead of Magick. This then brought me to the Jewish Kabbalah, a study of the Torah. What really intrigued me was that while it was closely related to Christianity, they supported ideas of reincarnation (I do believe reincarnation was in early Christianity itself though). This particular concept intrigued me: The Kabbalah's Tree of Life and how it can be linked node to node to show a transition between four realms (World of Emanation, World of Creation, World of Formation and World of Action). See this diagram to get an idea (https://dodona777.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/tree-of-life-2.jpg). The lower few "nodes" on the Tree also correspond to the idea of Chakras on the human body (http://www.treeoflifeteachings.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/chakra-and-Tree.jpg) (this with some labels (https://holisticlifestyle.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/chakrastree.jpg) and this too (http://api.ning.com/files/DmWKX8GKoMmJ2DQFl2UEf3Q1Csnxb8LYubPmS00RYHCqilzKPrrszWEPYU6MllqnaJyi3hklGF7OuuEpBN9MzvEZB9osBP0z/ChakraTree.gif)).
Then the problem with Qabbalah, which I was sure had a deeper understanding, is that most of the texts were kept within circles and missing pieces of the puzzle were not given. It was too cryptic. Following another lead in Magick, I went on to Hermeticism. This brought me to the following works: Initiation into Hermetics by Franz Bardon (http://www.martinismeoperatifquebec.org/initiationhermetics.pdf), The Emerald Tablet of Hermes (http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/emerald.htm), The Egyptian Book of the Dead (http://hermetic.com/texts/ani.html), Corpus Hermeticum (http://hermetic.com/texts/hermetica/), etc. Sure, I learnt a lot, but I wasn't actually getting to the states that Franz Bardon had described.
Then I got into Theosophy, meaning "divine wisdom". One has to be careful in Theosophy because the original founder is Madame Helena P Blavatsky, and there were frauds such as Leadbeater and Annie Besant who claimed all sorts of things that ruined the original concepts presented in Blavatsky's books. I first picked up The Secret Doctrine (http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd-hp.htm) and tried to go through it but it was TOO complicated for me to understand. It talked about Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis. The concepts of reincarnation inside were very complicated, such as Root-races and sorts. I used this website (http://blavatskytheosophy.com/) as a guide. A good introduction book was "The Ocean of Theosophy" by her good associate William Quan Judge. What I really found interesting about Blavatsky's material was particular in the book "The Voice of the Silence (http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/voice/voice1.htm)" where Higher and Lower kundalini was talked about (relationship between chakras, etc). Link is here (http://blavatskytheosophy.com/higher-kundalini-and-lower-kundalini/).
This is when a curious twist brought me back to Buddhism. One guy I met on the web told me to get a copy of his master's works (who is quite unknown in the Western world). His name is Nan Huai-Jin. He was verified to be enlightened by several masters of varying schools and really is quite a genius as well as a polymath in many things. I got his books Tao and Longevity and he described strange meditation phenomena such as diseases coming out to the Tee, as well as things like lights, aches, sounds, etc. In his other book Working Towards Enlightenment, he talked about all the various states of Jhana. He also gave a commentary on the diamond sutra in Diamond Sutra Explained. According to the person I met and many other people who met him, they said that Master Nan's voice had a very strange quality that could sound like waterfalls. I don't know if it's true and all. But he was the one who helped me reconcile all of the various religions, like Taoism, Buddhism and Zen together.
Following his practice, I then used the Kasina meditation shared to me by another one of his students. (Note that I've never actually seen it in his works, but it is something that many of his students said he recommended.)
I would visualize white bones starting from the left toe and all the way up until the whole skeleton is lighted up and dazzling (This certainly reminds me of self-hypnosis). Then I would visualize "death" so that my flesh liquefies and I give away my flesh and internal organs to spiritual entities. I was to then have joy while giving my flesh and everything away. Strangely, I really felt joy while giving them away. It sounds weird but it really worked. By this time, I would have a skeleton left. I couldn't actually think or do anything since I was after-all, just a stack of bones. Then the instruction was to dissolve the bones completely so that it cannot be located in space.
By the time I reached the skull, I felt like I didn't have a certain location in space. I was... lost. Then it just came. The joyfulness suddenly exponentially surged from my heart and filled up my whole body. Instantly, it was as if light came down from on top. By this time I didn't really have the sense of a body already (or my body was too relaxed). The light washed over me and I just got sucked into this light. After a while of that brilliant joy, suddenly the joy seemed to become lesser. There wasn't much light here, but I felt a little dizzy sometimes. I felt quite a bit of calmness.
It was so strange. I remember I used to combine relaxation techniques with anapansati meditation a few years back and I accidentally got into the bright light stage. But even so, both didn't have much of that joy. Also, when I was a child, I think I did go into a meditative stage while staring out of the window in my dad's car where things looked a little luminous and intangible. But none of them equalled what I experienced with it.
My second and subsequent meditations with the same technique all consistently got me to the same stage. If I had mindfulness throughout the whole day, the moment I sat down, I would slip into that state (or even deeper state). It usually takes about ten to fifteen minutes I think. My meditation sessions vary from fifteen minutes all the way to an hour because I cannot really tell the time. Am I practising correctly? Should I try something else?
But the thing now is that I'm quite afraid of advancing further because I do have commitments to my parents and helping to fund my young brother's education and all. I'm always afraid that if I go too deep by accident, I might never return. I also hear of things such as people going insane when down in side-paths or people having problems.
I also haven't experienced a marital life, so I've been carefully considering whether to lock myself in marriage (sadly) or to pursue the full spiritual life when I've finished my commitments. This has been a huge dilemma to me.
One thing I'm also quite interested to know about is the concept of the Bodhisattva. I'm quite confused as many seem to advocate becoming an Arahant, which in some Mahayana literature states it as a side-path. I'm not sure how a Bodhisattva works?
Have a happy new year too,
Winston
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Dear All,
I'm new to this forum and I'm really glad to have found it because many of my thoughts seemed to exactly match the information that I've read here. I'll start my meditation experiences.
Good on you mate, and welcome to the GWV. I spent a few years in the "Darling Downs" of Toowoomba, and vacationing on the Gold Coast.
I'm currently a 23-year-old medical student in Australia and all my life since I was young, I've been thinking that everyone around me seemed to act a little like zombies - if not, puppets on strings attached to conditions. I don't know why, but I felt like the whole world seemed a little rigid of sorts, as if things were already set in motion and all the actors were playing out their own scripts.
That represents some serious insight that you must have been born with.
At one point I was deeply interested at the prospect of self-hypnosis. I was reading all the literature on how people could be placed into a trance and then suggested to do things. This got me thinking - the conscious mind that we think we all have really does not have that much of a control over what we do. It turns out that neuroscience research validated it later, saying that unconscious decisions are made far before a conscious decision can be reached.
My first observation of hypnosis was by a hypnotist doing a demonstration in Surfers Paradise. I really was not fully impressed by his demonstration, because it seemed put-on.
I also then delved into courses that had these self-hypnosis tapes. It all started with the Silva Method. I managed to buy the tapes of the original course and at one point of the Alpha meditation (with the three fingers anchoring technique) tape, I grew mindful of my whole body pulsing. This suddenly gave way to a bright shining light. At this point I was a little afraid of the phenomena, so I withdrew. I realized that I couldn't get back that experience no matter how hard I tried after that.
Boy, what a coincidence I started with what was called in 1974 "Silva Mind Control."
Later on, I got into the wave of the "Law of Attraction" fad. I was thinking, "Could it be possible that our thoughts do create our reality?" I found it a little absurd when the movie The Secret claimed that every thought in a physical brain spiralled to exactly what you'd want. As I investigated further, I realized that it could be possible for the sub/unconscious mind to influence the health of the body and its attitude/habits. In a way, it did influence reality... but only the body, and reality? Certainly not to the point the movie claimed. I was quite dismissive at this point, until I stumbled on Magick.
Well that is the core of the New Age concept, which is also the core of the bible, which I have found is simply not true.
What I really found interesting about Blavatsky's material was particular in the book "The Voice of the Silence (http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/voice/voice1.htm)" where Higher and Lower kundalini was talked about (relationship between chakras, etc). Link is here (http://blavatskytheosophy.com/higher-kundalini-and-lower-kundalini/).
This is when a curious twist brought me back to Buddhism. One guy I met on the web told me to get a copy of his master's works (who is quite unknown in the Western world). His name is Nan Huai-Jin. He was verified to be enlightened by several masters of varying schools and really is quite a genius as well as a polymath in many things. I got his books Tao and Longevity and he described strange meditation phenomena such as diseases coming out to the Tee, as well as things like lights, aches, sounds, etc. In his other book Working Towards Enlightenment, he talked about all the various states of Jhana. He also gave a commentary on the diamond sutra in Diamond Sutra Explained. According to the person I met and many other people who met him, they said that Master Nan's voice had a very strange quality that could sound like waterfalls. I don't know if it's true and all. But he was the one who helped me reconcile all of the various religions, like Taoism, Buddhism and Zen together.
Following his practice, I then used the Kasina meditation shared to me by another one of his students. (Note that I've never actually seen it in his works, but it is something that many of his students said he recommended.)
I would visualize white bones starting from the left toe and all the way up until the whole skeleton is lighted up and dazzling (This certainly reminds me of self-hypnosis). Then I would visualize "death" so that my flesh liquefies and I give away my flesh and internal organs to spiritual entities. I was to then have joy while giving my flesh and everything away. Strangely, I really felt joy while giving them away. It sounds weird but it really worked. By this time, I would have a skeleton left. I couldn't actually think or do anything since I was after-all, just a stack of bones. Then the instruction was to dissolve the bones completely so that it cannot be located in space.
By the time I reached the skull, I felt like I didn't have a certain location in space. I was... lost. Then it just came. The joyfulness suddenly exponentially surged from my heart and filled up my whole body. Instantly, it was as if light came down from on top. By this time I didn't really have the sense of a body already (or my body was too relaxed). The light washed over me and I just got sucked into this light. After a while of that brilliant joy, suddenly the joy seemed to become lesser. There wasn't much light here, but I felt a little dizzy sometimes. I felt quite a bit of calmness.
It was so strange. I remember I used to combine relaxation techniques with anapansati meditation a few years back and I accidentally got into the bright light stage. But even so, both didn't have much of that joy. Also, when I was a child, I think I did go into a meditative stage while staring out of the window in my dad's car where things looked a little luminous and intangible. But none of them equalled what I experienced with it.
My second and subsequent meditations with the same technique all consistently got me to the same stage. If I had mindfulness throughout the whole day, the moment I sat down, I would slip into that state (or even deeper state). It usually takes about ten to fifteen minutes I think. My meditation sessions vary from fifteen minutes all the way to an hour because I cannot really tell the time. Am I practising correctly? Should I try something else?
Well, guided meditations and hypnosis are not recommended because they tend to lead to submissiveness of the subject; however, they seem to have worked for you, and longer meditation periods tend to lead to deeper meditation experiences.
But the thing now is that I'm quite afraid of advancing further because I do have commitments to my parents and helping to fund my young brother's education and all. I'm always afraid that if I go too deep by accident, I might never return. I also hear of things such as people going insane when down in side-paths or people having problems.
We are all confronted with similar fears when we enter the deep meditation experience. My only solution is to keep coming back, and get used to the deep meditation experience by dipping your toes in deeper each time.
I also haven't experienced a marital life, so I've been carefully considering whether to lock myself in marriage (sadly) or to pursue the full spiritual life when I've finished my commitments. This has been a huge dilemma to me.
If you are interested in enlightenment in this very lifetime, and you are not strongly drawn to sexuality, then forgoing the marital experience will benefit you.
One thing I'm also quite interested to know about is the concept of the Bodhisattva. I'm quite confused as many seem to advocate becoming an Arahant, which in some Mahayana literature states it as a side-path. I'm not sure how a Bodhisattva works?
This, sadly, is all Mahayanist BS, which proves Mahayanist Buddhism is a complete fraud, as Siddhartha Gautama was an Arahant. and so were his major disciples.
Have a happy new year too,
Winston
happy new year to you as well, and welcome to this forum, and tank-you for posting your most interesting messages.
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Good on you mate, and welcome to the GWV. I spent a few years in the "Darling Downs" of Toowoomba, and vacationing on the Gold Coast.
That's awesome, I haven't actually been down to Queensland yet but Gold Coast is a must-go. I hope you enjoyed your stay in the Land Down Under.
That represents some serious insight that you must have been born with.
I wasn't sure if it was an insight or whether I was just a little crazy in the head because everyone else just seemed to mind their own businesses. I have to say that at one point I thought myself as someone who had a mental disorder.
My first observation of hypnosis was by a hypnotist doing a demonstration in Surfers Paradise. I really was not fully impressed by his demonstration, because it seemed put-on.
Stage hypnosis is quite different from therapy though. I'm not too sure about the validity of such studies but there are quite a few books out talking about how their subjects described past lives when placed under a deep trance, such as this book (http://www.amazon.com/Many-Lives-Masters-Prominent-Psychiatrist/dp/0671657860) or this book (http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Souls-Studies-Between-Lives/dp/1567184855/). The themes are quite consistent though.
Boy, what a coincidence I started with what was called in 1974 "Silva Mind Control."
Indeed, what a coincidence. I was particularly interested in his claim that some of his students had ESP after following his methods.
Well that is the core of the New Age concept, which is also the core of the bible, which I have found is simply not true.
I believed it for a really long time, but now I believe more in the theory of a "fated" timeline. There is an Eastern divination method known as the Iron Plate Numerology which predicts exact times/dates of events happening. It was the only divination "mathematics" using algorithms based off the I-Ching. To date there is only one authentic reader and many, many frauds.
Some of the stories of Zen masters also had fortune tellers. One such story was really interesting. The Zen master, before he was enlightened was predicted to die within two years. After going to the mountains to dwell and meditate, he reached a state of enlightenment and his divined death did not happen. I'm not sure if you believe in these arts, but it does illustrate how meditation is somehow linked to these conditioned "future" events.
Well, guided meditations and hypnosis are not recommended because they tend to lead to submissiveness of the subject; however, they seem to have worked for you, and longer meditation periods tend to lead to deeper meditation experiences.
Do you mean guided as in self-guided? I don't actually use words or anything suggestive to have my experience. It is a variation I think, of Kasina meditation. I just searched the website and I found this page (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/kasina.htm) to be really illustrative! I can't believe I haven't actually seen that page before. I'll work on it from now on.
We are all confronted with similar fears when we enter the deep meditation experience. My only solution is to keep coming back, and get used to the deep meditation experience by dipping your toes in deeper each time.
That's true... I felt that way when I first had the bright light experience. Or fractals. I find annihilation to be a really, really scary thing to face though. I often thought that I have relinquished attachment to the idea of a self, but it turns out that it is not that simple to have simply consciously decided that way.
If you are interested in enlightenment in this very lifetime, and you are not strongly drawn to sexuality, then forgoing the marital experience will benefit you.
I definitely hope of doing it. Unfortunately I'm already in debt with my medical school fees and I'd need to pay it back...
This, sadly, is all Mahayanist BS, which proves Mahayanist Buddhism is a complete fraud, as Siddhartha Gautama was an Arahant. and so were his major disciples.
I've always been suspicious of Mahayana and always relied on the original teachings to be the main basis of my learning. Sometimes the sutras do seem a little interesting though. What do you think of the idea of non-duality? It does seem like the main essence of the teachings as the "9th" jhana is "Neither non-perception nor perception", with that idea reflected in the Mahayana sutra (Diamond Sutra).
happy new year to you as well, and welcome to this forum, and thank-you for posting your most interesting messages.
Thank you for building this site, it is great to be here!
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We really need a voice or text chatroom. There is just too much good stuff to comment on here. And real-time discussion, again and again, has shown to be superior. I believe this is because when one human in jhana talks to another which is ready, jhana arises for them as well. And as long as the discussion is on dhamma, the states deepen.
In lieu of responding, I will say that I agree with Jhananda's responses.
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I've always been suspicious of Mahayana and always relied on the original teachings to be the main basis of my learning. Sometimes the sutras do seem a little interesting though. What do you think of the idea of non-duality? It does seem like the main essence of the teachings as the "9th" jhana is "Neither non-perception nor perception", with that idea reflected in the Mahayana sutra (Diamond Sutra).
The non-dual experience in meditation is clearly an experience of the 3rd jhana, and above.
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I've been struggling with a surge in lust recently. I noticed that whenever I go celibate for a very long time, there is this sudden accumulation of sexual instinct waiting to go off. In mindfulness, I might catch that spark of lust that generates but sometimes it just causes bodily arousal, that emotion is set deep inside and i feel physically terrible. I might also feel my blood flow increasing towards my genital areas or lower bodily parts. I can feel my mental energy slowly being sucked towards the genital areas. Argh.
I've tried holding my breath in restraint since this allocates more blood flow to the vital organs like the heart and lungs and this works to a minimal extent. After holding pranayama, the blood seems to flow back. I find the lusts getting very intense, sometimes the body just goes off on its own upon a VERY short spark in my mind's intent.
I understand that the lust goes off in fourth dhyana, and I've been meditating but I seem to be fluctuating between the different jhanas. Sometimes I get to first, then jump to equanimity in third, then back again. It's very inconsistent. How do you suggest that I combat this messiness in Jhana progress? Do you do it systematically, such as in the sutras where the Buddha talks about the 5 masteries, etc?
Also, how do you combat sexual lust? I thought I got over lust when I never felt the urge over the past few months but it just suddenly kicked back in at full gear and I've been frequently meditating, I don't understand.
The Taoist explanation is probably due to the increase in my "chi", hence "vital energy" and also raising the possibility of sexual instinct. How would you explain it?
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I can only answer your questions partially, since what you seem to be experiencing is beyond me.
This is what I do outside of meditation:
When I see, let's say, an image that is sexually provocative, I immediately place my attention on something else. If it starts to develop into a sexual fantasy, again, I just think of something else, but in addition to that, one could place that attention on any of the charisms. I my case, I pull back from whatever I'm doing and try to arouse bliss and calmness, and soon enough, the lustful thoughts disappear. It's a constant battle. I've gone for a nearly a whole month without being a naughty boy by practicing something similar to this.
The Buddha taught his disciples to contemplate the repulsive aspects of the human body. Another practice is to imagine corpses in various stages of decay -- in order to develop dispassion for the human body. The idea is to see the ugliness in what we think is beautiful. See DN 22 -- The Mahasatipatthana Sutta.
Lust is one of the Five Hindrances and one should practice Right Effort from the N8P in order to overcome it:
Right Effort
1) To prevent unwholesome states from arising: the Five Hindrances, the Ten Fetters/Defilements
2) To abandon unwholesome states that have arisen: the Five Hindrances, the Ten Fetters/Defilements
3) To arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen: serenity and insight, the Brahma-Viharas, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the Noble Eightfold Path, etc. - especially to arouse the Seven Factors of Enlightenment leading to jhana and equanimity.
4) To maintain and perfect wholesome states already arisen: the above (also implies the cultivation of the four jhanas).
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I've been struggling with a surge in lust recently. I noticed that whenever I go celibate for a very long time, there is this sudden accumulation of sexual instinct waiting to go off. In mindfulness, I might catch that spark of lust that generates but sometimes it just causes bodily arousal, that emotion is set deep inside and i feel physically terrible. I might also feel my blood flow increasing towards my genital areas or lower bodily parts. I can feel my mental energy slowly being sucked towards the genital areas. Argh.
We all struggle with lust, because all organisms, and we are an organism, have 3 imperatives:
1] Secure subsistence. If an organism does not immediately secure subsistence it will parish.
2] Once subsistence is secured, then reproduction is necessary. If an organism does not reproduce as quickly as possible then the species might go extinct.
3] Once subsistence and reproduction are secured, then all organisms must secure their subsistence and the product of their reproduction; thus fight or flight arises.
Thus, as we enter deep meditation states, then we will be presented with at least one, if not all of, these vital imperatives. It is therefore necessary for the contemplative, who is intent upon cultivating deep meditations states, to learn to not be distracted by natural organic behavior.
I've tried holding my breath in restraint since this allocates more blood flow to the vital organs like the heart and lungs and this works to a minimal extent. After holding pranayama, the blood seems to flow back. I find the lusts getting very intense, sometimes the body just goes off on its own upon a VERY short spark in my mind's intent.
If it works, then use it.
I understand that the lust goes off in fourth dhyana, and I've been meditating but I seem to be fluctuating between the different jhanas. Sometimes I get to first, then jump to equanimity in third, then back again. It's very inconsistent. How do you suggest that I combat this messiness in Jhana progress? Do you do it systematically, such as in the sutras where the Buddha talks about the 5 masteries, etc?
Your mind will be a yoyo until you develop equanimity.
Also, how do you combat sexual lust? I thought I got over lust when I never felt the urge over the past few months but it just suddenly kicked back in at full gear and I've been frequently meditating, I don't understand.
Just keep coming back to deep meditation. Eventually the instinctual behavior will subside.
The Taoist explanation is probably due to the increase in my "chi", hence "vital energy" and also raising the possibility of sexual instinct. How would you explain it?
That is one way to describe it.
I can only answer your questions partially, since what you seem to be experiencing is beyond me.
This is what I do outside of meditation:
When I see, let's say, an image that is sexually provocative, I immediately place my attention on something else. If it starts to develop into a sexual fantasy, again, I just think of something else, but in addition to that, one could place that attention on any of the charisms. I my case, I pull back from whatever I'm doing and try to arouse bliss and calmness, and soon enough, the lustful thoughts disappear. It's a constant battle. I've gone for a nearly a whole month without being a naughty boy by practicing something similar to this.
The Buddha taught his disciples to contemplate the repulsive aspects of the human body. Another practice is to imagine corpses in various stages of decay -- in order to develop dispassion for the human body. The idea is to see the ugliness in what we think is beautiful. See DN 22 -- The Mahasatipatthana Sutta.
Lust is one of the Five Hindrances and one should practice Right Effort from the N8P in order to overcome it:
Right Effort
1) To prevent unwholesome states from arising: the Five Hindrances, the Ten Fetters/Defilements
2) To abandon unwholesome states that have arisen: the Five Hindrances, the Ten Fetters/Defilements
3) To arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen: serenity and insight, the Brahma-Viharas, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the Noble Eightfold Path, etc. - especially to arouse the Seven Factors of Enlightenment leading to jhana and equanimity.
4) To maintain and perfect wholesome states already arisen: the above (also implies the cultivation of the four jhanas).
This is another way to deal with instinctual behavior. Thank-you, Michel.
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I can only answer your questions partially, since what you seem to be experiencing is beyond me.
This is what I do outside of meditation:
When I see, let's say, an image that is sexually provocative, I immediately place my attention on something else. If it starts to develop into a sexual fantasy, again, I just think of something else, but in addition to that, one could place that attention on any of the charisms. I my case, I pull back from whatever I'm doing and try to arouse bliss and calmness, and soon enough, the lustful thoughts disappear. It's a constant battle. I've gone for a nearly a whole month without being a naughty boy by practicing something similar to this.
The Buddha taught his disciples to contemplate the repulsive aspects of the human body. Another practice is to imagine corpses in various stages of decay -- in order to develop dispassion for the human body. The idea is to see the ugliness in what we think is beautiful. See DN 22 -- The Mahasatipatthana Sutta.
Lust is one of the Five Hindrances and one should practice Right Effort from the N8P in order to overcome it:
Right Effort
1) To prevent unwholesome states from arising: the Five Hindrances, the Ten Fetters/Defilements
2) To abandon unwholesome states that have arisen: the Five Hindrances, the Ten Fetters/Defilements
3) To arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen: serenity and insight, the Brahma-Viharas, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the Noble Eightfold Path, etc. - especially to arouse the Seven Factors of Enlightenment leading to jhana and equanimity.
4) To maintain and perfect wholesome states already arisen: the above (also implies the cultivation of the four jhanas).
Thank you for this. It's strange because I've also tried meditating on the foulness of the body, decaying, rotting, swelling, disfiguration, etc... I think I should probably hold those thoughts in my mind and condition them to any person I see on the street, including myself and contemplate on the foulness of the physical body.
We all struggle with lust, because all organisms, and we are an organism, have 3 imperatives:
1] Secure subsistence. If an organism does not immediately secure subsistence it will parish.
2] Once subsistence is secured, then reproduction is necessary. If an organism does not reproduce as quickly as possible then the species might go extinct.
3] Once subsistence and reproduction are secured, then all organisms must secure their subsistence and the product of their reproduction; thus fight or flight arises.
Thus, as we enter deep meditation states, then we will be presented with at least one, if not all of, these vital imperatives. It is therefore necessary for the contemplative, who is intent upon cultivating deep meditations states, to learn to not be distracted by natural organic behavior.
Your mind will be a yoyo until you develop equanimity.
Sometimes they seem to be a "vacuum" and they don't go away as easily despite me going into meditation. I feel like my energy is being sucked downwards. Perhaps some subconscious part of me is still engaged in lustful thought, I guess it's something I will need to keep working on, sigh.
I wonder, does lust eventually even off or disappear? Or is it always there, just that with a trained mind, it allows the shutting off of these primal urges?
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When we can maintain our awareness upon the charisms, then there is no room for the fetters/hindrances/sins to grab a hold. So, keep coming back. Keep going deeper. Know that you will fail, time and again, but if you keep coming back, then one day you will be free, free, free of the fetters/hindrances/sins.
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This sutta is right up the alley to our discussion and is worthy of consideration to understand and overcome sensual desire.
“1Bhikkhus, there are these four strivings. What four? Striving by restraint, striving by abandonment, striving by development, and striving by protection.
2(1) “And what, bhikkhus, is striving by restraint? Here, having seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu does not grasp its marks and features. Since, if he left the eye faculty unrestrained, bad unwholesome states of longing and dejection might invade him, he practices restraint over it, he guards the eye faculty, he undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty. Having heard a sound with the ear … Having smelled an odor with the nose … Having tasted a taste with the tongue … Having felt a tactile object with the body … Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu does not grasp its marks and features. Since, if he left the mind faculty unrestrained, bad unwholesome states of longing and dejection might invade him, he practices restraint over it, he guards the mind faculty, he undertakes the restraint of the mind faculty. This is called striving by restraint.
3(2) “And what is striving by abandonment? Here, a bhikkhu does not tolerate an arisen sensual thought; he abandons it, dispels it, terminates it, and obliterates it. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will … an arisen thought of harming … bad unwholesome states whenever they arise; he abandons them, dispels them, terminates them, and obliterates them. This is called striving by abandonment.
4(3) “And what is striving by development? Here, a bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. He develops the enlightenment factor of discrimination of phenomena … the enlightenment factor of energy … the enlightenment factor of rapture … the enlightenment factor of tranquility … the enlightenment factor of concentration … the enlightenment factor of equanimity, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. This is called striving by development. an.ii.17
5(4) “And what is striving by protection? Here, a bhikkhu protects an arisen excellent object of concentration: the perception of a skeleton, the perception of a worm-infested corpse, the perception of a livid corpse, the perception of a festering corpse, the perception of a fissured corpse, the perception of a bloated corpse. This is called striving by protection.
“These, bhikkhus, are the four kinds of striving.”
6Restraint and abandonment,
development and protection:
these four strivings were taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
By these means an ardent bhikkhu here
can attain the destruction of suffering.
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When we can maintain our awareness upon the charisms, then there is no room for the fetters/hindrances/sins to grab a hold. So, keep coming back. Keep going deeper. Know that you will fail, time and again, but if you keep coming back, then one day you will be free, free, free of the fetters/hindrances/sins.
Thank you for this, I will definitely strive on.
This sutta is right up the alley to our discussion and is worthy of consideration to understand and overcome sensual desire.
Thank you for the sutta, I will study it until I reach it with wisdom.
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Just to add a really strange encounter...
I'm not sure if it's really a dream but it is not the first time I had such a strange lustful dream. It always ended up with me ejaculating for real when I wake up. I find that lust is a huge problem when I'm asleep.
My encounter was a little half-lucid. I found myself together with a humanoid looking lady (I didn't actually see her as female but felt her as feminine energy) and then there was just sudden lust and I ended up in a position where I was just about to have sex.
The pleasure was so intense that suddenly my mindfulness habit kicked in and I realized what I was doing. Immediately, my lucidity shot up and I forced myself to return. Sure enough, my physical body was at that point of release. I immediately got up from bed and started meditating to quell the passion emotion.
It's not the first time, but it's the first time I've managed to stop this kind of lust encounter before the point of ejaculation. I'm not sure what this means, but it felt "hyper-real". Maybe it's just a dream, but I just wanted to write that I've actually managed to keep mindfulness while I was nearly unconscious in my dream.
Today, I got up and did body mindfulness and I found that I reached first Jhana extremely quickly. There was a sensation I didn't really notice before... The pleasure itself was a little "burning" as if something was burning within, but not a bad kind of burn, but a pleasurable burn. I have no idea if that means anything but then I was able to reach equanimity. Today was one of my better meditation sessions, strangely.
Also, I found that I always experience these kind of things especially when I've gotten into a pretty deep state of meditation the day before. Then the moment I release my semen, the progress of my meditation backtracks.
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It's normal for young people to have wet dreams. If possible try to channel that energy into meditation and it would help tremendously.
If the sexual activeness is affecting you, take less meat and more vegetables. More of the squash and melon type would help. Hope it helps.
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It's normal for young people to have wet dreams. If possible try to channel that energy into meditation and it would help tremendously.
If the sexual activeness is affecting you, take less meat and more vegetables. More of the squash and melon type would help. Hope it helps.
How do you channel that to meditation? Do you mean like sexual tantra or like sex transmutation and all?
Yeah I'm a real meat eater and have been trying to incorporate more vegetables into my diet and make a slow switch.
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Just to add a really strange encounter...
I'm not sure if it's really a dream but it is not the first time I had such a strange lustful dream. It always ended up with me ejaculating for real when I wake up. I find that lust is a huge problem when I'm asleep.
My encounter was a little half-lucid. I found myself together with a humanoid looking lady (I didn't actually see her as female but felt her as feminine energy) and then there was just sudden lust and I ended up in a position where I was just about to have sex.
The pleasure was so intense that suddenly my mindfulness habit kicked in and I realized what I was doing. Immediately, my lucidity shot up and I forced myself to return. Sure enough, my physical body was at that point of release. I immediately got up from bed and started meditating to quell the passion emotion.
This is how overcoming lust worked for me. Just keep coming back, know we all of clay feet, so we all fail, those who succeed keep trying.
It's not the first time, but it's the first time I've managed to stop this kind of lust encounter before the point of ejaculation. I'm not sure what this means, but it felt "hyper-real". Maybe it's just a dream, but I just wanted to write that I've actually managed to keep mindfulness while I was nearly unconscious in my dream.
As lucidity grows for you in the sleep state, then the more you will be able to make choices, which will allow you to move to other domains where there is no lust.
Today, I got up and did body mindfulness and I found that I reached first Jhana extremely quickly. There was a sensation I didn't really notice before... The pleasure itself was a little "burning" as if something was burning within, but not a bad kind of burn, but a pleasurable burn. I have no idea if that means anything but then I was able to reach equanimity. Today was one of my better meditation sessions, strangely.
Good work pays off.
Also, I found that I always experience these kind of things especially when I've gotten into a pretty deep state of meditation the day before. Then the moment I release my semen, the progress of my meditation backtracks.
Progress is made when we fall, we pick ourselves back up, and move forward, as you have demonstrated.
How do you channel that to meditation? Do you mean like sexual tantra or like sex transmutation and all?
Sexual tantra is just another example of misguided people. What you are doing, learning to be self-aware in the sleep state, and getting up and meditating when lust, or any of the other fetters/sins arises, is how one truly sublimates the sexual drive, and other instinctual behavior.
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If you can bring the energy from the base chakra and up through the crown chakra. It takes lots of practice.
Base chakra equals to sexual energy and the crown chakra is spiritual energy.
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Sexual tantra is just another example of misguided people. What you are doing, learning to be self-aware in the sleep state, and getting up and meditating when lust, or any of the other fetters/sins arises, is how one truly sublimates the sexual drive, and other instinctual behavior.
Strangely I had that same intuition that sexual tantra was a wrong practice based on false view, that's why while I've been exposed to its techniques I've never had that urge to try it out.
Hmm, would you think that it's kind of like what psychologists call 'extinction of conditioning'? Such as trying to reverse the conditioning of the stimuli and response.
If you can bring the energy from the base chakra and up through the crown chakra. It takes lots of practice.
Base chakra equals to sexual energy and the crown chakra is spiritual energy.
I've heard of what before, and it does remind me of what Taoists do in manipulation of energy in the Microcosmic Orbit:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/9i4efb.gif)
Apparently the theory is that energy tends to flow from the base of the spine/coccyx to the crown of the head from the back, then downwards from the front of the body (consistent with embryology theory). The theory of this energy flow is also used in Tai Chi Chuan, etc to restore the body (I might do a post on Taoism here to contribute some things I've learnt from a Taoist master). As the master I talked to said though, many Taoists have focused on the wrong things and cultivated in the realm of form and formless, fossilizing false views and achieving feats such as extended lifespans, producing astral doubles, etc. He also pointed towards Buddhism as the "right" way of transcending the five skandhas.
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Hmm, would you think that it's kind of like what psychologists call 'extinction of conditioning'? Such as trying to reverse the conditioning of the stimuli and response.
Here I think we should realize as mystics that western psychiatry has never understood us or valued out developments. Instead of reverse the conditioning, we are deconditioning by just letting go and going to depth in meditation. What psychiatrist ever did that? None that I know of.
I've heard of what before, and it does remind me of what Taoists do in manipulation of energy in the Microcosmic Orbit:
Apparently the theory is that energy tends to flow from the base of the spine/coccyx to the crown of the head from the back, then downwards from the front of the body (consistent with embryology theory). The theory of this energy flow is also used in Tai Chi Chuan, etc to restore the body (I might do a post on Taoism here to contribute some things I've learnt from a Taoist master). As the master I talked to said though, many Taoists have focused on the wrong things and cultivated in the realm of form and formless, fossilizing false views and achieving feats such as extended lifespans, producing astral doubles, etc. He also pointed towards Buddhism as the "right" way of transcending the five skandhas.
Here the mystic is not trying to do anything. The energy flows are natural, so all the mystic does is observe them. If they go up, or down, the mystic just observes it. That is all.
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I've been struggling with a surge in lust recently. I noticed that whenever I go celibate for a very long time, there is this sudden accumulation of sexual instinct waiting to go off. In mindfulness, I might catch that spark of lust that generates but sometimes it just causes bodily arousal, that emotion is set deep inside and i feel physically terrible. I might also feel my blood flow increasing towards my genital areas or lower bodily parts. I can feel my mental energy slowly being sucked towards the genital areas. Argh.
We all struggle with lust, because all organisms, and we are an organism, have 3 imperatives:
1] Secure subsistence. If an organism does not immediately secure subsistence it will parish.
2] Once subsistence is secured, then reproduction is necessary. If an organism does not reproduce as quickly as possible then the species might go extinct.
3] Once subsistence and reproduction are secured, then all organisms must secure their subsistence and the product of their reproduction; thus fight or flight arises.
Thus, as we enter deep meditation states, then we will be presented with at least one, if not all of, these vital imperatives. It is therefore necessary for the contemplative, who is intent upon cultivating deep meditations states, to learn to not be distracted by natural organic behavior.
There is a tremendous amount of power and insight in those words. If calling a friend on the phone is uncommon in a world of text-messagers--then Jhananda just dropped communication from a distant form of physical alien life. Ha! In other words, communication with this much power in it is very uncommon to be directly communicated to an individual. I'm beginning to realize just how much compassion Jhananda honors the sincere newcomer with.
And, I'm appreciating bodhi's honesty and forthcoming. Makes this a lot simpler.
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When we can maintain our awareness upon the charisms, then there is no room for the fetters/hindrances/sins to grab a hold. So, keep coming back. Keep going deeper. Know that you will fail, time and again, but if you keep coming back, then one day you will be free, free, free of the fetters/hindrances/sins.
This cannot be more true. You'll fall, but just get back up. The next wave is better than the last. Then you fall off again, but just get back up. And it gets better and better. At least, this is my ongoing experience over the years I've practiced.
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I cannot be more thankful for having you people here as a guidance to my meditation. So many things are being cleared up and I finally see some of my deluded views. I will just persist on in my mindfulness and meditation.
Lately, the bliss (or physical bliss) tends to tingle even when I'm walking around and I cannot seem to multi-task at all. It might seem that I'm walking around in first or second jhana.
I have a few questions though...
- Does "light" always happen when you go into deep jhana? From what I gather in the suttas, they don't seem to mention any kind of light, although I experienced it once naturally when I dissolved my sense of self in meditation.
- Also, I understand that the first Jhana does still have the remnant of the sixth sense of consciousness. However, would it be the case that this 'bliss' is also a tactile sensation birthed from inner touch? I do remember reading the sutta, saying that both external and internal senses should be quelled. In this way, I am a little confused about how not completely withdrawing the senses lead to a Jhana experience.
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I cannot be more thankful for having you people here as a guidance to my meditation. So many things are being cleared up and I finally see some of my deluded views. I will just persist on in my mindfulness and meditation.
I went to many gurus, and joined many religious movements, and contemplative groups and never once found factual or skilled guidance from those groups; however, I did find a few individuals who gave me some useful guidance. Also, those groups tended to marginalize me after I spoke with the guiding teacher seeking advice. So, this is why I started this forum, and its predecessor.
Lately, the bliss (or physical bliss) tends to tingle even when I'm walking around and I cannot seem to multi-task at all. It might seem that I'm walking around in first or second jhana.
It is normal to have the charisms extend into our daily life, but doing so makes some people very nervous, especially when their teacher or priest is a moron.
I have a few questions though...
- Does "light" always happen when you go into deep jhana? From what I gather in the suttas, they don't seem to mention any kind of light, although I experienced it once naturally when I dissolved my sense of self in meditation.
Yes, there are charisms that are associated with every sense field, so, yes, light is an option, although the suttas do not spend much time on the subject.
- Also, I understand that the first Jhana does still have the remnant of the sixth sense of consciousness. However, would it be the case that this 'bliss' is also a tactile sensation birthed from inner touch? I do remember reading the sutta, saying that both external and internal senses should be quelled. In this way, I am a little confused about how not completely withdrawing the senses lead to a Jhana experience.
Well, the biggest problem with the suttas is morons have been translating and or interpreting it for thousands of years. So, you are just going to have to consider that I might be right that the whole point of the N8P is to withdraw from the physical senses and put your attention upon sensory phenomena that is not based upon sensory stimuli, which is called 'jhana-nimitta' in the suttas, and charism in Christian mystical literature.
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When we can maintain our awareness upon the charisms, then there is no room for the fetters/hindrances/sins to grab a hold. So, keep coming back. Keep going deeper. Know that you will fail, time and again, but if you keep coming back, then one day you will be free, free, free of the fetters/hindrances/sins.
This cannot be more true. You'll fall, but just get back up. The next wave is better than the last. Then you fall off again, but just get back up. And it gets better and better. At least, this is my ongoing experience over the years I've practiced.
Experienced and Posted Today which Relates to This
(I love seeing all the connections)
Artificial Intelligence - Stand Alone (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,607.msg5380.html#msg5380)
I cannot be more thankful for having you people here as a guidance to my meditation. So many things are being cleared up and I finally see some of my deluded views. I will just persist on in my mindfulness and meditation.
I went to many gurus, and joined many religious movements, and contemplative groups and never once found factual or skilled guidance from those groups; however, I did find a few individuals who gave me some useful guidance. Also, those groups tended to marginalize me after I spoke with the guiding teacher seeking advice. So, this is why I started this forum, and its predecessor.
Lately, the bliss (or physical bliss) tends to tingle even when I'm walking around and I cannot seem to multi-task at all. It might seem that I'm walking around in first or second jhana.
It is normal to have the charisms extend into our daily life, but doing so makes some people very nervous, especially when their teacher or priest is a moron.
I have a few questions though...
- Does "light" always happen when you go into deep jhana? From what I gather in the suttas, they don't seem to mention any kind of light, although I experienced it once naturally when I dissolved my sense of self in meditation.
Yes, there are charisms that are associated with every sense field, so, yes, light is an option, although the suttas do not spend much time on the subject.
- Also, I understand that the first Jhana does still have the remnant of the sixth sense of consciousness. However, would it be the case that this 'bliss' is also a tactile sensation birthed from inner touch? I do remember reading the sutta, saying that both external and internal senses should be quelled. In this way, I am a little confused about how not completely withdrawing the senses lead to a Jhana experience.
Well, the biggest problem with the suttas is morons have been translating and or interpreting it for thousands of years. So, you are just going to have to consider that I might be right that the whole point of the N8P is to withdraw from the physical senses and put your attention upon sensory phenomena that is not based upon sensory stimuli, which is called 'jhana-nimitta' in the suttas, and charism in Christian mystical literature.
Again, Jhananda has nailed it perfectly. This is all true in my experience.
However, I would like to say two things. One, these days there is much more openness and familiarity with the mystic--although it's still dismal. Two, I have a psychiatrist that recognizes my mystic abilities, as she has some of her own.
Things are changing, and your experience will vary from Jhananda and I. But, he is still overall accurate.
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That makes more sense now!
I suddenly realized something over the few days that I've been reading sutras and material from this forum/site and trying to apply them in my practice.
The "method" that got me to Jhana the other time (skeleton meditation, which was based off mindfulness of the body as Jhanananda had stated) had the same stages that Jhanon talked about in this thread (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,863.msg4926.html).
The first step of the method was to focus on "illuminating" the skeleton in the body by contemplating on the foulness of the flesh, organs and "discarding them away". The method was to contemplate the rotting and pus-forming on the flesh and skin, revealing the bone. I found that by doing this, in my mind I was in a way, letting go of the physical body. By just maintaining a balance in my attention, not exerting, yet still being mindful, the bone naturally illuminates. So I contemplated every part of the body, starting from my left big toe, then to all toes, then upwards, until I reached the skull. By the time I reached the skull, my attention seemed very sustained and there was a very intense tingling and blissful sensation throughout my body.
I did not even need to keep my attention steadfast on it any more, I took the advice from GWV to anchor my awareness on the blissfulness and joy.
Then the next step was usually to imagine even the bones turning to dust and scattering. I think this represented a form of letting go inside my mind. When I did this, the joy inside of me surged into that of an orgasm.
This was then followed by equanimity, where I could no longer feel any physical bliss. Instead, I started to feel a sort of "tingle" that didn't come from the physical body.
I experienced vivid dizziness, flashing lights, and a tinnitus-like sound that was growing in the background. I could have sworn I almost went into this strange pulling sensation as if my body was being sucked upwards into some kind of space. Then I just freaked out from the new experience and pulled back.
Could it be that I almost generated a mind-made body? It could also have been an anticipation because I've been reading literature and finally understanding that these "siddhis" as described by the sutta was not performed by the physical body but the mind-made body.
I then repeated the meditation in the same way and strangely... I consistently got back to the same point again and again. I guess I'll just keep coming back to face this irrational fear.
It's really amazing how much I've progressed since I've been to this forum/site. I hope I can one day reach the progress of the more advanced mystics here haha.
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Firstly, although your terms are a bit different than we use--like mind made body (manomaya)--your insight is dead on. A very hearty congratulations to you, my friend :) Jhananda may have a few details to hammer out with you, but really you have now officially established yourself in jhana. It is now yours to take refuge in at any moment, and any place. You can be free.
This is only the beginning, but it feels like the climax--huh? It keeps climaxing, friend. Remember the waves I talked about? Enjoy your surfing, and MOST IMPORTANTLY: GET BACK UP OMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU FALL OFF. Because the next wave is even bigger.
I feel as though you may attain full enlightenment from this point on of stream-winning, far faster than anyone I've seen on this forum, or guided in real life. Let that give you conviction and humility :)
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This was then followed by equanimity, where I could no longer feel any physical bliss. Instead, I started to feel a sort of "tingle" that didn't come from the physical body.
This "tingle" was most probably the tactile charism.
I experienced vivid dizziness, flashing lights, and a tinnitus-like sound that was growing in the background. I could have sworn I almost went into this strange pulling sensation as if my body was being sucked upwards into some kind of space. Then I just freaked out from the new experience and pulled back.
Could it be that I almost generated a mind-made body? It could also have been an anticipation because I've been reading literature and finally understanding that these "siddhis" as described by the sutta was not performed by the physical body but the mind-made body.
The dizziness is the charism of rapture, which is the kinesthetic charism, which precedes the OOBE.
Manomya is the Pali term for the OOBE. It is commonly translated as "mind-made body," which is a literal translation, but it is a poor translation. OOBE is more accurate. So, yes, it indeed sounds like you made to the edge of an OOBE, but it frightened you, as it does most people when they have their first few. If you keep coming back, eventually you will get used to the experience, and enjoy ride.
I then repeated the meditation in the same way and strangely... I consistently got back to the same point again and again. I guess I'll just keep coming back to face this irrational fear.
It's really amazing how much I've progressed since I've been to this forum/site. I hope I can one day reach the progress of the more advanced mystics here haha.
Yes, all one often needs is some skillful guidance. Too bad so few meditation teachers have sufficient skill to guide people through the charisms to liberation.
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Firstly, although your terms are a bit different than we use--like mind made body (manomaya)--your insight is dead on. A very hearty congratulations to you, my friend :) Jhananda may have a few details to hammer out with you, but really you have now officially established yourself in jhana. It is now yours to take refuge in at any moment, and any place. You can be free.
This is only the beginning, but it feels like the climax--huh? It keeps climaxing, friend. Remember the waves I talked about? Enjoy your surfing, and MOST IMPORTANTLY: GET BACK UP OMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU FALL OFF. Because the next wave is even bigger.
I feel as though you may attain full enlightenment from this point on of stream-winning, far faster than anyone I've seen on this forum, or guided in real life. Let that give you conviction and humility :)
Thank you for the kind words. I will. It's just a little overwhelming at first but I'm sure practice and continuous repetition will make me see this through.
Yes, all one often needs is some skillful guidance. Too bad so few meditation teachers have sufficient skill to guide people through the charisms to liberation.
I'm really thankful to have discovered the right guidance. It's all so strange how I just happened to chance upon a youtube video out of the thousands of videos out there, then just happened to find myself back here after a few months, realizing that the video I watched was from here, and then suddenly having so much progress when I was stuck around in circles trying to understand what was happening for a few years :)
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Let me ask you, what video in specific?
Also, I know it's strong in the beginning. Please, check out this post when I first established--like you just have. You can visit the whole thread by clicking the blue "quote" title below, if you like. Otherwise, I've simply put what's important in bold.
There is a tremendous amount of questions I've asked lately I apologize, but I feel they are all legitimate and worthy of asking.
Now that I am consistently hitting 2nd or 3rd jhana, does this mean I may enter the dark night soon (or already am)? I am experiencing an increase in unusual discomforts, such as mild dizziness, sudden drops in mindfulness, leg cramps, headaches, and terrifying dreams. Some of this has already been around for a while, but it seems my progress has made them either more apparent or increased in intensity. I suppose it's too late to turn back? LOL
Recently I have made efforts to meditate into 1st or 2nd jhana before falling asleep, as I think it would be great to have an OOBE that I can be certain is an OOBE. Last night I successfully entered 1st or 2nd jhana before falling asleep, but also experienced a terrifying dream where some kind of tall gargoyle like creature was chasing me and others. When I woke, I was instantly almost fully awake and aware, and I felt what appeared to be the jhana tactile and visual charisms still present.
But this dream has made me re-realize that for the last year I've had some rather frightening or unpleasant dreams, and this is what unconsciously caused me 6 months ago to stop my efforts to be aware of and remember my dreams.
What is my best course of action? I am fed up with having dreams that keep me from getting uninterrupted rest, but I also don't think having a couple shots before bed, or making efforts to be otherwise as unaware as possible before sleep is a good idea. What have some of you done to resolve this?
This has also brought to my attention something I never really bothered to consider. There was always an uncertainty if they actually existed as more than a mental exercise or what the jhana's and Path were like. I never, ever thought it would reap so many changes and fruits. But since reviewing some of Jhananda and Michael's postings, I'm suddenly a bit intimidated and hesitant to move forward. On the one hand, this is fascinating, and I seem to be pulled toward it since I was a kid.
This also appears to be what I am most naturally talented at. On the other hand, it almost seems like a great burden to not know if you'll sleep all through the night because of various phenomena, or if you'll break down in tears for seemingly no reason, or see something terrifying during everyday waking life (does that happen?). I don't know what I am looking to hear, but I am tired, and need to finish this post. So far I have found it to be a great and fulfilling ride, but I am concerned at some point it will become more of a burden. I'm hoping that the benefits of the practice continue to outweigh the negatives.
And then compare that with the posts you see of mine now :)
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Jhanon, thank you so much for that. Just last night, I was having a huge problem going to sleep. My vision became as if everything was luminiscent and I couldn't exactly see through with my physical eyes. It was as if bright imprints were obscuring my vision. This morning I suddenly had a glimpse of clear vision without my glasses or lenses.
It was a really scary feeling especially at night. My whole body had a very strong tingle. Whenever I thought I should just ignore it a sudden pain comes to the bottom of my forearm. It started on my left and when I tried to ignore it for sleep my right forearm hurt in the same place.
It's also strange since I'm used to unconscious sleep. I can't fathom going into fourth jhana and beyond when I'm going to sleep. I have this irrational fear of detaching from the body. Especially when I started feeling the tactile charism... also it seems as if there was no effort on my part, it keeps progresaing on its own.
I hope to get past these feelings. I too keep being concerned about the phenomena that happen in sleep. I keep wondering if I would suddenly be able to see the dead and spirits and it freaks me out (I had a friend who could see dead people walking around).
To answer the question, I believe it was the "what is jhana" video or one of them. I remember watching a few of them.
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Unless you found my posts which say the same things and are copying me--lol--then you are genuinely experiencing an almost identical stream-entry as I. I called it the white wall of annihilation. But the rest was part for the couse.
I am going to tell you what I wish I would have done in your position. Right now you have what I see as "beginners mind/luck." It is now that, I feel, you can make the fastest progress. Again, I feel as though it is possible for a seriously dedicated, informed, and supported mystic can make it to liberation. Where you are to arahantship in 5-28 days.
It's just the feeling I've have many times. Jhananda is the authority, so take my words as they are.
Tip: Courage. Have courage. Just be with it, and then move one tiny centimeter a little further in. Courage. Courage. Courage. That is what I would have told myself then.
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Unless you found my posts which say the same things and are copying me--lol--then you are genuinely experiencing an almost identical stream-entry as I. I called it the white wall of annihilation. But the rest was part for the couse.
I am going to tell you what I wish I would have done in your position. Right now you have what I see as "beginners mind/luck." It is now that, I feel, you can make the fastest progress. Again, I feel as though it is possible for a seriously dedicated, informed, and supported mystic can make it to liberation. Where you are to arahantship in 5-28 days.
It's just the feeling I've have many times. Jhananda is the authority, so take my words as they are.
Tip: Courage. Have courage. Just be with it, and then move one tiny centimeter a little further in. Courage. Courage. Courage. That is what I would have told myself then.
Yes I assure you that I'm having these experiences from my own, haha. It's strange how I would feel something and then when I look at your posts it nearly narrates what I've been experiencing. I can count that as a blessing though, since I'll be able to take similar advice as well.
I'll just stay on with it for now. I tried a bit of walking meditation and I'm getting quite comfortable having the bliss permeate my body as I walk around haha.
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Unless you found my posts which say the same things and are copying me--lol--then you are genuinely experiencing an almost identical stream-entry as I. I called it the white wall of annihilation. But the rest was part for the couse.
I am going to tell you what I wish I would have done in your position. Right now you have what I see as "beginners mind/luck." It is now that, I feel, you can make the fastest progress. Again, I feel as though it is possible for a seriously dedicated, informed, and supported mystic can make it to liberation. Where you are to arahantship in 5-28 days.
It's just the feeling I've have many times. Jhananda is the authority, so take my words as they are.
Tip: Courage. Have courage. Just be with it, and then move one tiny centimeter a little further in. Courage. Courage. Courage. That is what I would have told myself then.
Yes I assure you that I'm having these experiences from my own, haha. It's strange how I would feel something and then when I look at your posts it nearly narrates what I've been experiencing. I can count that as a blessing though, since I'll be able to take similar advice as well.
I'll just stay on with it for now. I tried a bit of walking meditation and I'm getting quite comfortable having the bliss permeate my body as I walk around haha.
Perpetuating "Beginners Mind"
Posture Variations
Good! That's excellent. Something I've been working on is explaining the employment of different postures as relief from bursts of progress like you are experiencing now. Specirically, I've found that each posture, of walking, standing, cross-legged sitting, laying, and yes--even chair-sitting, reclining and Dhamma discussion, offer the contemplative a different emphasis on experience. For example, walking I find intuitive insight to be strong. Laying; OOBE. Cross-legged, joy/equanimity/tranquility.
Time of Day and Environment
Also, different times of day. At 2am, I almost always experience the white wall of light. Morning, inspiration. This is easily apparent as a mechanic by observing how easily the audio charism can be detected in silence when compared to a loud room.
A Holistic Practice
So if it becomes too much, you might consider focusing on another posture or time of day or quality/factor/sense to round out your practice and experience.
Among the many benefits is discovery and novel experience. This perpetuates "beginners mind". In the same way that traveling from one city to a new one can.
Set and Setting
These are all examples of "set and setting."
(I would provide links as proof and reference, but I'm on the mobile phone)
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Perhaps it is because we are so resonant, but it seems you are doing very well. I hope you are allowing your heart/conscience/inner-guide to feel that acknowledgement, and that it is propelling you even more rapidly in it's ecstasy :)
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Perpetuating "Beginners Mind"
Posture Variations
Good! That's excellent. Something I've been working on is explaining the employment of different postures as relief from bursts of progress like you are experiencing now. Specirically, I've found that each posture, of walking, standing, cross-legged sitting, laying, and yes--even chair-sitting, reclining and Dhamma discussion, offer the contemplative a different emphasis on experience. For example, walking I find intuitive insight to be strong. Laying; OOBE. Cross-legged, joy/equanimity/tranquility.
Brilliant. Thank you for this, somehow I find that by walking meditation, I tend to also have some kind of visual charism happening as fluorescence in my vision. While I was back in my medicine study term, I found that walking therapeutically helped me remember things very easily and I could also derive concepts that linked some of these incoherent terms in a very understandable way, almost like a flash of inspiration. I'm still trying my way in it though, perhaps I could learn some Tai Chi to help with the fluidity of my movements. As I'm in a confined space, it does get hard to do U-turns when I reach a wall.
Time of Day and Environment
Also, different times of day. At 2am, I almost always experience the white wall of light. Morning, inspiration. This is easily apparent as a mechanic by observing how easily the audio charism can be detected in silence when compared to a loud room.
Would that be the tinnitus-like sound ringing? Because when I go into a mindful state the sound seems to appear out of nowhere. I was wondering if the concentration somehow tensed a muscle and agitated my ear-related nerves.
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Would that be the tinnitus-like sound ringing? Because when I go into a mindful state the sound seems to appear out of nowhere. I was wondering if the concentration somehow tensed a muscle and agitated my ear-related nerves.
Well, if you are meditating properly, then you are not tensing any muscles, so if you are experiencing something that seems like tinnitus from the practice of meditation, then it is the sound charism. The more you practice deep meditation the more you are likely to experience the sound charism, to the point that you may have the sound charism present all of the time, even when you are not meditating. This is considered a desirable outcome.
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Perpetuating "Beginners Mind"
Posture Variations
Good! That's excellent. Something I've been working on is explaining the employment of different postures as relief from bursts of progress like you are experiencing now. Specirically, I've found that each posture, of walking, standing, cross-legged sitting, laying, and yes--even chair-sitting, reclining and Dhamma discussion, offer the contemplative a different emphasis on experience. For example, walking I find intuitive insight to be strong. Laying; OOBE. Cross-legged, joy/equanimity/tranquility.
Brilliant. Thank you for this, somehow I find that by walking meditation, I tend to also have some kind of visual charism happening as fluorescence in my vision. While I was back in my medicine study term, I found that walking therapeutically helped me remember things very easily and I could also derive concepts that linked some of these incoherent terms in a very understandable way, almost like a flash of inspiration. I'm still trying my way in it though, perhaps I could learn some Tai Chi to help with the fluidity of my movements. As I'm in a confined space, it does get hard to do U-turns when I reach a wall.
Time of Day and Environment
Also, different times of day. At 2am, I almost always experience the white wall of light. Morning, inspiration. This is easily apparent as a mechanic by observing how easily the audio charism can be detected in silence when compared to a loud room.
Would that be the tinnitus-like sound ringing? Because when I go into a mindful state the sound seems to appear out of nowhere. I was wondering if the concentration somehow tensed a muscle and agitated my ear-related nerves.
I agree with Jhananda regarding the "audio charism." And I encourage you to re-read the set and setting post with that information in mind. It makes sense of the whole post.
Also, I've actually found walking outside in ordinary street or sidewalk to be better than indoors in confined space. And Tai chi resonates with a different quality, like how yoga resonates with kundalini.
My fondest movement meditation has been walking entirely by intuition through a forest park.
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Well, if you are meditating properly, then you are not tensing any muscles, so if you are experiencing something that seems like tinnitus from the practice of meditation, then it is the sound charism. The more you practice deep meditation the more you are likely to experience the sound charism, to the point that you may have the sound charism present all of the time, even when you are not meditating. This is considered a desirable outcome.
I do have this sound charism present every time now, along with the tingles I feel (which you said was the tactile charism). Also, I don't know if this is a visual charism, but I seem to be able to see "faint streaks of light" in mid air, as if it were the reflection of light from dust floating in the air. But then I realized the luminescence also can be seen all over my skin and close objects, so it doesn't make sense to be reflection of dust. The brightness increases as if it were obscuring my vision when I do walking meditation.
I agree with Jhananda regarding the "audio charism." And I encourage you to re-read the set and setting post with that information in mind. It makes sense of the whole post.
Also, I've actually found walking outside in ordinary street or sidewalk to be better than indoors in confined space. And Tai chi resonates with a different quality, like how yoga resonates with kundalini.
My fondest movement meditation has been walking entirely by intuition through a forest park.
I will try to do it in a park. Unfortunately it's really hot over at Aus right now. The summer heat reached over 45 Celsius ( 115 Fahrenheit) in one of the days. Perhaps I could find a place shaded by the trees so I can at least dodge the UV light.
I'll continue to strive. The fear seems to have reduced in my recent meditations. Just going to go back again and again until I finally let go of it.
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I do have this sound charism present every time now, along with the tingles I feel (which you said was the tactile charism). Also, I don't know if this is a visual charism, but I seem to be able to see "faint streaks of light" in mid air, as if it were the reflection of light from dust floating in the air. But then I realized the luminescence also can be seen all over my skin and close objects, so it doesn't make sense to be reflection of dust. The brightness increases as if it were obscuring my vision when I do walking meditation.
This is very good. If you make the charisms (jhana-nimitta) your object of meditation, then you will find greater depth in meditation.
I'll continue to strive. The fear seems to have reduced in my recent meditations. Just going to go back again and again until I finally let go of it.
Good to know that the fear is diminishing through familiarity with the new terrain of deep meditation, and confirmation from your friends here. If you spend enough time in deep meditation then eventually you are likely to find the landscape of deep meditation a great comfort.
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Well, if you are meditating properly, then you are not tensing any muscles, so if you are experiencing something that seems like tinnitus from the practice of meditation, then it is the sound charism. The more you practice deep meditation the more you are likely to experience the sound charism, to the point that you may have the sound charism present all of the time, even when you are not meditating. This is considered a desirable outcome.
I do have this sound charism present every time now, along with the tingles I feel (which you said was the tactile charism). Also, I don't know if this is a visual charism, but I seem to be able to see "faint streaks of light" in mid air, as if it were the reflection of light from dust floating in the air. But then I realized the luminescence also can be seen all over my skin and close objects, so it doesn't make sense to be reflection of dust. The brightness increases as if it were obscuring my vision when I do walking meditation.
I agree with Jhananda regarding the "audio charism." And I encourage you to re-read the set and setting post with that information in mind. It makes sense of the whole post.
Also, I've actually found walking outside in ordinary street or sidewalk to be better than indoors in confined space. And Tai chi resonates with a different quality, like how yoga resonates with kundalini.
My fondest movement meditation has been walking entirely by intuition through a forest park.
I will try to do it in a park. Unfortunately it's really hot over at Aus right now. The summer heat reached over 45 Celsius ( 115 Fahrenheit) in one of the days. Perhaps I could find a place shaded by the trees so I can at least dodge the UV light.
I'll continue to strive. The fear seems to have reduced in my recent meditations. Just going to go back again and again until I finally let go of it.
I don't wish to interfere with Jhananda's wisdom, but I do want to offer some "coincidental" information.
"Aura"
You're describing what most people call "aura." Unfortunately, this term has too much baggage and is usually only prescribed to living beings. But it is everywhere. If it is being seen around a physical object, then when the the physical object is moved, the "aura" will take a little bit longer to move with it. Which, noticing that "delay" alone contains tremendous amounts of insight into "time" and higher planes.
"Tracers"
Anyway, this "delay" causes a "tracer" effect (another term with baggage.) If you absorb into it enough, you'll see the most glorious light everywhere. It is quite profound the first time. I just taught a couple people how to see, or rather, notice "aura" this last week.
Learning to See "Aura" and Implications of It
One took an hour to learn, but had too much fetter of "skeptical doubt" and so is not convinced yet. The other learned in less than a minute, and happens to be my fiance--which was very revealing. It is amazing just how much one can know through what I guess I would call "holistic" insight. Meaning that one can see the big picture and thus understand the context of the smaller pictures.
Charisms as Refuge
Perhaps this could be one of the new "charismatic refuges" you use during certain situations, or should you find yourself unable to overcome aversion with the intensity of another charism.
As always, I do not claim to be an arahant nor have more experience than others on here, such as Jhananda. So, take my words as they are, but not "my word for IT." I have sincerely appreciated your posts. I really have. Thank you.
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This is very good. If you make the charisms (jhana-nimitta) your object of meditation, then you will find greater depth in meditation.
I'm making the sound jhana-nimitta an object of meditation currently.
I realize that I've done something similar with the visual charism before. I was told to imagine a circular spot of white/red/blue/yellow/fire/water/earth/air/space/light and then simply just hold my attention on it. One day it expanded and filled my whole vision. It only happened once though, so I wasn't able to replicate it. I think I read it in the kasina article as well.
A problem I find when meditating on the sound is that it does gradually become slightly louder, but not that much louder. It definitely isn't tinnitus because I watched your video/read the article and the sound isn't imbalanced. It seems to come from both the centre of the head (as if I had headphones on) yet from everywhere around me. I read somewhere that this sound came from the crown chakra, how true is this statement?
I also find that I'm having trouble finding the right grip. I tried to find a metaphor that would work and I thought of grasping a jelly, not too soft or tight. I was trying to find the good spot but subconsciously I seemed to tense too much when I focused on the sound, getting a little headache. I was able to get to the point where the visual and tactile charisms also appeared though.
"Aura"
You're describing what most people call "aura." Unfortunately, this term has too much baggage and is usually only prescribed to living beings. But it is everywhere. If it is being seen around a physical object, then when the the physical object is moved, the "aura" will take a little bit longer to move with it. Which, noticing that "delay" alone contains tremendous amounts of insight into "time" and higher planes.
I just tried focusing and noticed the delay. Would this also describe how a leaf, when torn, retain its aura? (What do you think of Kirlian photography?)
"Tracers"
Anyway, this "delay" causes a "tracer" effect (another term with baggage.) If you absorb into it enough, you'll see the most glorious light everywhere. It is quite profound the first time. I just taught a couple people how to see, or rather, notice "aura" this last week.
I see streaks of gold or purple (mainly purple) from my body. But mostly when the visual charism seems to appear, my vision itself becomes obscured by light. Is this normal?
Learning to See "Aura" and Implications of It
One took an hour to learn, but had too much fetter of "skeptical doubt" and so is not convinced yet. The other learned in less than a minute, and happens to be my fiance--which was very revealing. It is amazing just how much one can know through what I guess I would call "holistic" insight. Meaning that one can see the big picture and thus understand the context of the smaller pictures.
Hmm, I understand that one can use the visual charism as a meditative object, but I was wondering if developing this skill is useful to conduct? For example, looking at a person's aura and determining the right words to say, right actions to take, etc?
Charisms as Refuge
Perhaps this could be one of the new "charismatic refuges" you use during certain situations, or should you find yourself unable to overcome aversion with the intensity of another charism.
As always, I do not claim to be an arahant nor have more experience than others on here, such as Jhananda. So, take my words as they are, but not "my word for IT." I have sincerely appreciated your posts. I really have. Thank you.
I've also appreciated your posts, they've helped me too.
Sometimes I'm not too sure which charism I should meditate on. On some days I will use the visual, then I'll switch to tactile, then auditory. Is this counter-productive?
From what I feel, these charisms seem to have this... unifying quality. Like the tingling (fuzziness), the "visual' tingling (the noise-patterns of the light-streaks), the "auditory" tingling (in form of whistling), sometimes even a rich aroma (also giving off that tingling kind of nature). I kind of understand that they seem to come from a single field that has this vibrating quality, I'm not sure how to express it... So that's the reason why I keep switching around. Maybe it's a misconception, so I wish to clarify here.
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I'm making the sound jhana-nimitta an object of meditation currently.
I believe that you will find that this is a wise choice. I hope that you find it as useful for deep meditation, and as comforting, as I do.
I realize that I've done something similar with the visual charism before. I was told to imagine a circular spot of white/red/blue/yellow/fire/water/earth/air/space/light and then simply just hold my attention on it. One day it expanded and filled my whole vision. It only happened once though, so I wasn't able to replicate it. I think I read it in the kasina article as well.
Most of my senses produce charismatic phenomena, so I use them all as a multisensory meditation object at once. It might take some time for you to develop the skill, but if you embrace all of the charisms at once, then you are likely to find even greater depth in meditation, as well as greater comfort and fulfillment.
A problem I find when meditating on the sound is that it does gradually become slightly louder, but not that much louder. It definitely isn't tinnitus because I watched your video/read the article and the sound isn't imbalanced. It seems to come from both the centre of the head (as if I had headphones on) yet from everywhere around me.
Well, then it certainly sounds like sounds like charismatic sound to me.
I read somewhere that this sound came from the crown chakra, how true is this statement?
It is possible, but it sounds like a fantastic explanation, and religion is all about fantastic explanations, but I do not need one. All of the senses seem to have a charismatic component, and I have read elsewhere that they are parallel senses that we have on the immaterial domains. This seems like a reasonable explanation to me, especially since the charismatic senses increase in intensity as we approach the immaterial domains.
I also find that I'm having trouble finding the right grip. I tried to find a metaphor that would work and I thought of grasping a jelly, not too soft or tight. I was trying to find the good spot but subconsciously I seemed to tense too much when I focused on the sound, getting a little headache. I was able to get to the point where the visual and tactile charisms also appeared though.
Well, if you got a headache from trying to acquire the right grip upon your meditation object, then you did not get it, because it should be relaxing. But, grasping a jelly, or a jelly fish, might work for you.
The metaphors that worked best for me are riding a horse (I am from Arizona, after all), or learning to ballroom dance. In the 90s I dated some women looking for x-wife #3, and took various partner dance classes. I never got good at partner dancing though, but I saw that the same kind of grip that the lead has on his partner is needed for deep meditation. So, take some riding lessons, or dance lessons to understand grip upon the meditation object.
Hmm, I understand that one can use the visual charism as a meditative object, but I was wondering if developing this skill is useful to conduct? For example, looking at a person's aura and determining the right words to say, right actions to take, etc?
One could use being aware of the immaterial senses as an extension of mindfulness, but going to a lot of trouble to read a person's aura could be just a distraction.
Sometimes I'm not too sure which charism I should meditate on. On some days I will use the visual, then I'll switch to tactile, then auditory. Is this counter-productive?
If it works for you to do this, then do it. Otherwise if you can hold them all at once, then it might work for you.
From what I feel, these charisms seem to have this... unifying quality. Like the tingling (fuzziness), the "visual' tingling (the noise-patterns of the light-streaks), the "auditory" tingling (in form of whistling), sometimes even a rich aroma (also giving off that tingling kind of nature). I kind of understand that they seem to come from a single field that has this vibrating quality, I'm not sure how to express it... So that's the reason why I keep switching around. Maybe it's a misconception, so I wish to clarify here.
Yes, I find they scintillate. The come from the immaterial domains, which some people call 'astral plane.'
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I believe that you will find that this is a wise choice. I hope that you find it as useful for deep meditation, and as comforting, as I do.
It is. I find that I reach deep states very, very quickly. Also, it's almost as if I skip first/second jhana and go straight to the dizzy spell. Is skipping normal? I'm a little used to feeling bliss and then having it subside to the no-pain/pleasure equanimity.
Most of my senses produce charismatic phenomena, so I use them all as a multisensory meditation object at once. It might take some time for you to develop the skill, but if you embrace all of the charisms at once, then you are likely to find even greater depth in meditation, as well as greater comfort and fulfillment.
Thank you for clarifying this, I will incorporate it into my practice.
The metaphors that worked best for me are riding a horse (I am from Arizona, after all), or learning to ballroom dance. In the 90s I dated some women looking for x-wife #3, and took various partner dance classes. I never got good at partner dancing though, but I saw that the same kind of grip that the lead has on his partner is needed for deep meditation. So, take some riding lessons, or dance lessons to understand grip upon the meditation object.
Haha. It's funny how I've never ridden a horse despite so many stables available around here. I'll take your advice and see if I can incorporate that understanding better.
Yes, I find they scintillate. The come from the immaterial domains, which some people call 'astral plane.'
Thank you for clarifying.
I'll work on it and fill in my progress soon.
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Oh goody! You're asking some excellent questions. I'll lend my experience if it will help.
"Aura"
You're describing what most people call "aura." Unfortunately, this term has too much baggage and is usually only prescribed to living beings. But it is everywhere. If it is being seen around a physical object, then when the the physical object is moved, the "aura" will take a little bit longer to move with it. Which, noticing that "delay" alone contains tremendous amounts of insight into "time" and higher planes.
I just tried focusing and noticed the delay. Would this also describe how a leaf, when torn, retain its aura? (What do you think of Kirlian photography?)
I've never torn a leaf and watched how its aura changed. I became aware of Kirlian photography around the same time in my progress as you, but not enough to comment on it. I soon lost interest in it because the profound depth and breadth of meditative phenomena was so absorbing and fulfilling.
"Tracers"
Anyway, this "delay" causes a "tracer" effect (another term with baggage.) If you absorb into it enough, you'll see the most glorious light everywhere. It is quite profound the first time. I just taught a couple people how to see, or rather, notice "aura" this last week.
I see streaks of gold or purple (mainly purple) from my body. But mostly when the visual charism seems to appear, my vision itself becomes obscured by light. Is this normal?
The "aura" is, in my experience, the visual charism. As one absorbs deeper into it, they begin to see higher planes, which are experienced as brilliant light. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if I go to bed at 2am, I will almost always be blinded by light as I enter sleep. No, it isn't normal. It's extraordinary. But it's nothing to worry about :D
Learning to See "Aura" and Implications of It
One took an hour to learn, but had too much fetter of "skeptical doubt" and so is not convinced yet. The other learned in less than a minute, and happens to be my fiance--which was very revealing. It is amazing just how much one can know through what I guess I would call "holistic" insight. Meaning that one can see the big picture and thus understand the context of the smaller pictures.
Hmm, I understand that one can use the visual charism as a meditative object, but I was wondering if developing this skill is useful to conduct? For example, looking at a person's aura and determining the right words to say, right actions to take, etc?
I don't spend much time on developing the ability to "read" aura. I rely primarily on the intuitive insight stream and critical thinking for that. In my experience, it's faster and deeper. However, I have found attempting to "read" aura for friends has initiated streams of insight. But, they weren't "small" insights like "your color is purple, you must be spiritual." I tend to use the intuition as guide as to questions like "should I learn to read aura?"
Charisms as Refuge
Perhaps this could be one of the new "charismatic refuges" you use during certain situations, or should you find yourself unable to overcome aversion with the intensity of another charism.
As always, I do not claim to be an arahant nor have more experience than others on here, such as Jhananda. So, take my words as they are, but not "my word for IT." I have sincerely appreciated your posts. I really have. Thank you.
I've also appreciated your posts, they've helped me too.
Sometimes I'm not too sure which charism I should meditate on. On some days I will use the visual, then I'll switch to tactile, then auditory. Is this counter-productive?
Bouncing Around the Charisms
I experienced the same thing in your stage of experience. Personally, after I detected and intuited enough of the charisms to understand them in a more comprehensive way, I then chose one to stick with one main charism for formal meditation.
The Use of a Constant Charism
This is because I required a "constant" to enable observation of the stage changes. It's sort of like driving at a constant speed and watching cars pass you to determine how fast they are travelling. But it also enabled faster absorption, because the "constant" enabled study of the subtle mechanics of meditative absorption.
Anyway, for me, this constant was the tactile "tingling" charism. These days, I'm finding it most advantageous to marry the charisms which you already have the most development or affinity. Marrying them induces factors of enlightenment like Energy--which "unlocks" deeper attainment. I feel this is probably a lesser form of how Jhananda keeps all the senses in one field of consciousness. And for me to consider that is absolutely mind-blowing.
From what I feel, these charisms seem to have this... unifying quality. Like the tingling (fuzziness), the "visual' tingling (the noise-patterns of the light-streaks), the "auditory" tingling (in form of whistling), sometimes even a rich aroma (also giving off that tingling kind of nature). I kind of understand that they seem to come from a single field that has this vibrating quality, I'm not sure how to express it... So that's the reason why I keep switching around. Maybe it's a misconception, so I wish to clarify here.[/b]
Unification
As you can see in the above answers, and in other posts in which I have perhaps discussed it too extensively--yes, there is a unifying quality to the charisms. I call it "connecting the dots." In my personal experience, the charisms come together the higher into the form and formless levels you go. It's difficult for me to explain this, because they also begin connecting and synergizing at lower levels--such as "reading" aura, leading to stream of insight, and energy, which synergizes and takes you deeper in that very moment.
This topic of "Unification" has been treated, however incompletely, in a separate thread in which I tried to put it into words.
I only list Faculties and abilities/charisms which I've had enough direct personal experience with. I've left out many extraordinary abilities that I just don't know enough about. To make matters more difficult; as the Faculties develop and the individual reaches Samadhi 6-8, the Faculties merge together. Because this could be very confusing, for most Faculties, the development line will end simply with "OOB."
If this triggers insight for you, then you can visit the rest of the topic here: Jhanon's List of Supernatural Abilities (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,816.msg4223.html#msg4223)
I suppose I would now say the qualities and charisms in the form levels of samadhi 1-4 begin to synergize with each other the more you learn to utilize them, which gives birth to more knowledge.
In the upper formless samadhi, it certainly seems they come together into "omni-omni", which for lack of a better term means "All is one." But I have only a handful of experiences with samadhi 6-8, unlike Jhananda. Even so, it certainly feels accurate.
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I've never torn a leaf and watched how its aura changed. I became aware of Kirlian photography around the same time in my progress as you, but not enough to comment on it. I soon lost interest in it because the profound depth and breadth of meditative phenomena was so absorbing and fulfilling.
I think I suddenly understand why you lost interest in it, because I also did... I'm turning my attention more and more into the charisms.
The "aura" is, in my experience, the visual charism. As one absorbs deeper into it, they begin to see higher planes, which are experienced as brilliant light. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if I go to bed at 2am, I will almost always be blinded by light as I enter sleep. No, it isn't normal. It's extraordinary. But it's nothing to worry about :D
This is my experience too with the visual charism. I haven't been able to remain perfectly conscious during sleep though.
I don't spend much time on developing the ability to "read" aura. I rely primarily on the intuitive insight stream and critical thinking for that. In my experience, it's faster and deeper. However, I have found attempting to "read" aura for friends has initiated streams of insight. But, they weren't "small" insights like "your color is purple, you must be spiritual." I tend to use the intuition as guide as to questions like "should I learn to read aura?"
Could you shed some light on the insight stream? I'm trying to understand what it means. The rest of the charisms seem to be becoming more and more pronounced.
Does this mean that you suddenly get inspirations or insights into things? I was pondering about how people separate their experiences into duality and got to this conclusion that people are drawing mental boundaries the moment any mental object is created (the within and without).
Also, I'm having this very strange thought, as if this mind of mine ... is not mine. It's what is behind every person in the world... I'm also having this flash as if this mind of mine itself is the whole universe. I mean, there are millions, countless beings that I am sure do not have a physical body. And all of them have to somehow derive from this mind, right? I'm not sure but I'm getting this feeling as if this mind... or my mind... is the mind of the universe itself.
Bouncing Around the Charisms
I experienced the same thing in your stage of experience. Personally, after I detected and intuited enough of the charisms to understand them in a more comprehensive way, I then chose one to stick with one main charism for formal meditation.
The Use of a Constant Charism
This is because I required a "constant" to enable observation of the stage changes. It's sort of like driving at a constant speed and watching cars pass you to determine how fast they are travelling. But it also enabled faster absorption, because the "constant" enabled study of the subtle mechanics of meditative absorption.
Anyway, for me, this constant was the tactile "tingling" charism. These days, I'm finding it most advantageous to marry the charisms which you already have the most development or affinity. Marrying them induces factors of enlightenment like Energy--which "unlocks" deeper attainment. I feel this is probably a lesser form of how Jhananda keeps all the senses in one field of consciousness. And for me to consider that is absolutely mind-blowing.
Based on your advice, I'm sticking with the tactile, because I find that I'm not tensing up when I focus on the tactile. It also seems as if the auditory charism increases naturally when the tactile charism grows. It's not even as if I'm exerting focus on it, but just being aware of it. I keep feeling as if I'm like the universe itself, I don't know if this is some delusion.
Unification
As you can see in the above answers, and in other posts in which I have perhaps discussed it too extensively--yes, there is a unifying quality to the charisms. I call it "connecting the dots." In my personal experience, the charisms come together the higher into the form and formless levels you go. It's difficult for me to explain this, because they also begin connecting and synergizing at lower levels--such as "reading" aura, leading to stream of insight, and energy, which synergizes and takes you deeper in that very moment.
This topic of "Unification" has been treated, however incompletely, in a separate thread in which I tried to put it into words.
Yes this is what I'm experiencing...
I only list Faculties and abilities/charisms which I've had enough direct personal experience with. I've left out many extraordinary abilities that I just don't know enough about. To make matters more difficult; as the Faculties develop and the individual reaches Samadhi 6-8, the Faculties merge together. Because this could be very confusing, for most Faculties, the development line will end simply with "OOB."
If this triggers insight for you, then you can visit the rest of the topic here: Jhanon's List of Supernatural Abilities (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,816.msg4223.html#msg4223)
I suppose I would now say the qualities and charisms in the form levels of samadhi 1-4 begin to synergize with each other the more you learn to utilize them, which gives birth to more knowledge.
In the upper formless samadhi, it certainly seems they come together into "omni-omni", which for lack of a better term means "All is one." But I have only a handful of experiences with samadhi 6-8, unlike Jhananda. Even so, it certainly feels accurate.
Yes it certainly does. I'm still stuck at the OOB phase though, I'm hoping I make a breakthrough soon.
I kind of have that strange feeling of "all is one" too, though I doubt my view is as deep as yours or Jhanananda yet. I'm hoping I'll reach that stage soon.
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It is. I find that I reach deep states very, very quickly. Also, it's almost as if I skip first/second jhana and go straight to the dizzy spell. Is skipping normal? I'm a little used to feeling bliss and then having it subside to the no-pain/pleasure equanimity.
For those who are adept at deep meditation, there is certainly a possibility that one will drop right into whatever level that they are adept at. Also, when we maintain living in the present, with a still mind, and carry the charisms with us, then we generally are functioning in the world at 2nd or 3rd jhana, so when we sit to meditate, then we are likely to start at that point an go deeper.
Thank you for clarifying this, I will incorporate it into my practice...
Haha. It's funny how I've never ridden a horse despite so many stables available around here. I'll take your advice and see if I can incorporate that understanding better...
I'll work on it and fill in my progress soon.
Do let us know if the riding lessons help you to meditate deeper.
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Do let us know if the riding lessons help you to meditate deeper.
Scheduled a class! Will report soon.
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I'm back to confirm a slight doubt... I remember watching a video on the bounciness of lower jhana in the GWV youtube channel and I suddenly remembered that Jhanananda once said that in order to move from first to second jhana, one must let go of the sustained/applied attention on the meditation object.
Would this be true for the charisms as well? Do I have to let go of the charisms or sustain them until I reach fourth and beyond? I notice that using the charisms, I get into a focused state very quickly to the point that the ringing becomes a bit like water through a badly-maintained tap. I'm not sure if it's second Jhana but I do feel bliss permeating my whole body throughout the day and my thoughts are often clear and not as erratic as the past.
I suddenly remember that I've had that experience of complete light filling me and swallowing my existence in the past, but it came from not really focusing on anything, but kind of like surrendering everything. Are the charisms meant to be watched until one generates the manomaya?
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Are you sure you can't afford time for a one-on-one skype call with me? I feel like this could all be explained and you could learn far more rapidly with a few calls. That's been my experience so far.
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Are you sure you can't afford time for a one-on-one skype call with me? I feel like this could all be explained and you could learn far more rapidly with a few calls. That's been my experience so far.
It's really not uncomfortable or anything. I've been doing one-on-one coaching, mediating, and teaching since I was a kid. Besides, I only sleep about 4
-5 hours a day, and that huge availability won't be around much longer.
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I'm back to confirm a slight doubt... I remember watching a video on the bounciness of lower jhana in the GWV youtube channel and I suddenly remembered that Jhanananda once said that in order to move from first to second jhana, one must let go of the sustained/applied attention on the meditation object.
Would this be true for the charisms as well? Do I have to let go of the charisms or sustain them until I reach fourth and beyond?
No, the charims are intended for our focus to be upon 24-7. If we do, then we will find reduced stress, and anxiety, and increased fulfillment.
I notice that using the charisms, I get into a focused state very quickly to the point that the ringing becomes a bit like water through a badly-maintained tap. I'm not sure if it's second Jhana but I do feel bliss permeating my whole body throughout the day and my thoughts are often clear and not as erratic as the past.
I suddenly remember that I've had that experience of complete light filling me and swallowing my existence in the past, but it came from not really focusing on anything, but kind of like surrendering everything. Are the charisms meant to be watched until one generates the manomaya?
As you saw in the Robert Monroe OOBE book, the OOBE is accomplished by staturation in all of he charisms.
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Are you sure you can't afford time for a one-on-one skype call with me? I feel like this could all be explained and you could learn far more rapidly with a few calls. That's been my experience so far.
I understand, and I really do sincerely wish I could have a call. I'm overseas visiting my relatives out of Aus so I do have my hands tied, I meditate whenever I'm free for now. Do you think a call around... late Feb close to March would be too late? I don't wish to trouble you either and I really appreciate your concern. Your advice has been a real help to me along with Jhanananda and I can't imagine what a call would do haha.
No, the charims are intended for our focus to be upon 24-7. If we do, then we will find reduced stress, and anxiety, and increased fulfillment.
As you saw in the Robert Monroe OOBE book, the OOBE is accomplished by staturation in all of he charisms.
As I went through the guided meditation on the Samadhi forum, I realized that I had always reached third jhana, where there is equanimity... past tranquillity and with a sort of energy. I'm not exactly sure where it turns into fourth jhana though, is there a clear way to tell? I remember you said in a video that it was as if one was in fifth samadhi, just with the physical sense of the body remaining, but without being aroused by sounds or stimuli outside the body at this stage.
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Everyone is different in how they know what level they're in. That was the idea behind creating the thread where each person was to describe the salient qualities of samadhi levels in their own words. But, I haven't gotten a chance to start it.
If you want confidence in discerning something, you spend time discerning it as you would. For example; for me, the word "bliss" isn't accurate. To me, it's just some strong tactile tingling. A warm bath for you is a cold bath for me, for example. Cal, a friend/member described bliss as "aura." I described bliss as "warm tingling."
So, perhaps you would like to record your samadhi experiences as you would a normal experience, rather than trying to describe them like the Buddha would. I found reading the existing case histories of experiences to be useful in helping me discern qualities and levels.
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Everyone is different in how they know what level they're in. That was the idea behind creating the thread where each person was to describe the salient qualities of samadhi levels in their own words. But, I haven't gotten a chance to start it.
If you want confidence in discerning something, you spend time discerning it as you would. For example; for me, the word "bliss" isn't accurate. To me, it's just some strong tactile tingling. A warm bath for you is a cold bath for me, for example. Cal, a friend/member described bliss as "aura." I described bliss as "warm tingling."
So, perhaps you would like to record your samadhi experiences as you would a normal experience, rather than trying to describe them like the Buddha would. I found reading the existing case histories of experiences to be useful in helping me discern qualities and levels.
That makes sense, I'll definitely try to make it more descriptive in future.
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My latest entry:
I sat half-lotus (I find it more comfortable than Burmese), then used the auditory charism to sustain attention on it. Doing this, I went into a VERY itchy phase, then I remembered Jhanananda talked about it being a hypersensitive phase, so I retreated inwards, de-focusing myself on the itchiness.
I also realized that I can smell scents that are extremely far away, even many doors away. I realized it was my relative mopping the floor a few staircases up. I could also hear the television about five walls away. At this point, it was probably 2nd jhana, I think?
Then I tried to use the horse analogy. I believe it was that... giving and taking, like what it feels like to work with the horse? Where you would kind of ride on the waves, if it went up, it went up, if it went down, it went down, and all I am doing is maintaining this very soft watch on it. When I did that, the sound became very shrill and high pitched.
I could feel some kind of refreshing feeling (you know when you put lotion on your skin and it has that refreshing feeling?) creeping over my ear. I don't know why it was just the ear. Then there was a little at the back of my skull as well. I could also feel my tongue physically tingling, but I couldn't feel the rest of my body. The tingling would appear at different areas of my body but not a complete full tingle of the whole body.
I remember bouncing back down to the point where I would sustain attention on it again, and then I'll go back into second jhana with a lot of tranquil tingling. Then I'll go back up to third where the physical tingling starts to retreat to give way to the mental tingling.
At this point of time it was as if I had no thoughts at all, and only the tingling sound remained. My mind would be quite bright and at this point I wasn't aware enough to see exactly what caused the light but I knew that I could see a lot of light. Maybe I need to remain longer in meditation for this stage. It was as if there wasn't an observer watching it, but it was "just the tingle" itself. I also felt like I wouldn't mind to remain in that state for as long as I can. Would this be fourth jhana?
I can't seem to get to the point of saturation of the charisms though. Maybe I'll need to stay in meditation much longer. It's always a problem when my relatives open my door despite telling them that I'm meditating. I guess I'll wait until I'm back.
I had a lot of bright-light experiences when I was back in my apartment, as well as a point where I reached full body tingling as well.
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Everyone is different in how they know what level they're in. That was the idea behind creating the thread where each person was to describe the salient qualities of samadhi levels in their own words. But, I haven't gotten a chance to start it.
That is one of the primary purposes of this case histories section.
If you want confidence in discerning something, you spend time discerning it as you would. For example; for me, the word "bliss" isn't accurate. To me, it's just some strong tactile tingling. A warm bath for you is a cold bath for me, for example. Cal, a friend/member described bliss as "aura." I described bliss as "warm tingling."
The problem with describing one's experience of deep meditation is the language that has been used to describe it changes over thousands of years. So, the terms 'bliss', 'joy', and 'ecstasy' have no meaning these days. So, what are we going to do? Invent a new language like Tolle? I think it is a bad move, unless you are just marketing yourself.
Good work, bodhimind. It looks like you had a good 3rd stage samadhi, and possibly dipped into the 4th. One just has to spend a long time in these stages for deeper development and saturation to take place.
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Everyone is different in how they know what level they're in. That was the idea behind creating the thread where each person was to describe the salient qualities of samadhi levels in their own words. But, I haven't gotten a chance to start it.
That is one of the primary purposes of this case histories section.
If you want confidence in discerning something, you spend time discerning it as you would. For example; for me, the word "bliss" isn't accurate. To me, it's just some strong tactile tingling. A warm bath for you is a cold bath for me, for example. Cal, a friend/member described bliss as "aura." I described bliss as "warm tingling."
The problem with describing one's experience of deep meditation is the language that has been used to describe it changes over thousands of years. So, the terms 'bliss', 'joy', and 'ecstasy' have no meaning these days. So, what are we going to do? Invent a new language like Tolle? I think it is a bad move, unless you are just marketing yourself.
I wouldn't call it marketing as much as I would call it making samadhi available to as many as possible. When you go to Japan, it's ideal to speak Japanese. These days, "bliss", "joy", and "ecstasy" are almost Japanese for most English speakers. I've gotten the impression from others that the use of these words puts them far away from having any interest in them. And yet they are happy to talk with me about their "really enjoyable lucid dream."
In Japan, their primary language is Japanese. But their television, their media, their marketing, throws in some English here and there, because the culture appears to be transitioning to English. And, this seems to be working for them.
Rather than invent a new language, like Tolle, or stick unwaveringly to what we've hand-picked from various texts--I think a middle way is most effective. Meaning we use descriptive wording not uncommon to the speech of our present culture, and when it feels right, we use the traditional term, or the modern version of the traditional term.
One of the first things I learned from reading the Buddha's discourses years ago, was the observation of natural processes and patterns, and using those to gain insight into skillfulness. And I think the changing of Japanese language gives us a glimpse.
I may be naive, but I think eventually a cross-cultural spiritual thesaurus will need to be created for the experience of samadhi. Unfortunately, I don't feel qualified to do that at present. Because although there are many spiritual synonyms--like ordinary words--their definitions vary despite referencing the overall same thing.
Jhana and samadhi could be synonyms to an aspirant, but they aren't exactly the same to those more experienced. Jhana is the form samadhis 1-4. Whereas samadhi references jhana 1-4, the void, and samadhi 5-8. That's where I think an interactive thesaurus linking each definition to the provided synonyms would be most effective.
On top of that, I am not nearly as educated in all the terms as Jhananda and others here, which could be easily rectified by their assistance. But, even so, it's the format which has me most concerned.
Still, I find myself leaving bed time samadhi to record these synonyms, diagrams and explanations just before I enter sleep.
My apologies for distracting from your case history, bodhimind. I hope this is useful for your case histories, otherwise I will remove it. But, I feel as though this is something worth mentioning for you to read.
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I may be naive, but I think eventually a cross-cultural spiritual thesaurus will need to be created for the experience of samadhi. Unfortunately, I don't feel qualified to do that at present. Because although there are many spiritual synonyms--like ordinary words--their definitions vary despite referencing the overall same thing.
I have already done that. Now all you need to do is get familiar with that cross-cultural spiritual thesaurus which I already developed.
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No worries Jhanon, it's all very useful information.
Yesterday on the bus, I've tried reading the book by one of the masters who brought me into Buddhist practice (Nan Huai Jin) again, trying to see if the GWV's principles were inside. I was pleasantly surprised, despite the heavy Mahayanist tone he likes to go with.
If you cannot achieve a "body generated by will", then you will not be able to succeed in cultivating practice. All the efforts that you cultivate will only belong to the elementary stage of the four intensified practices. The four intensified practices, prayoga, are called "warming", "the peak", "forbearance" and the "supreme worldly dharma".
To me, that totally sounds like reaching the fourth jhana and entering fifth samadhi with a manomaya. When I first read it the first time, it might be the language problem, but I falsely thought that what he meant was that you had to sustain the physical body by will alone. It was a pretty scary thought lol. Now that I know the concept of the manomaya, it made perfect sense.
Only after the ch'i channels are truly and correctly opened up can light within the body be generated. Even if there is no light, inside the person there is still an expanse of light. Normally when the average person closes his eyes, what is before him is all black. But we must not assume that this expanse of light is the realm of the great light. This would be very wrong! This is still a light that has form. I tell you, only at this time, after this light is generated, can the kundalini rise........reached the phenomenon of "warming" in the four intensified practices.
This sounds a little like the jhana experience I had where light removed my perception of separation and energy rose within me and I couldn't sleep at all that night.
Why can't we ourselves illuminate mind and see our true nature? Because since time without beginning, there has been something operating in our lives: it is the mind that clings to objects, continuing from thought to thought. Because our thoughts can never stop, because even when we are asleep and dreaming, we are still thinking, this is called the mind that clings to objects.
It is a feeling of joy, of comfort, of merging with the universe, of merging with space. It is indescribable, and Idon't want to describe it, because if you have not reached this realm, there is no way for you to understand.
This suddenly reminded me of Jhanananda's experience of the Immaterial Realms on the GWV site.
He views the world's lands and mountains and rivers as images in a clear mirror, which come without sticking, and depart without a trace. He perceives and responds with empty receptivity, without any of his old habits. All there is is a single pure essential reality. From this point, the root source of birth and death is revealed. He sees all classes of sentient beings in all the worlds of the ten directions in all their varieties. Though he has not yet fully comprehended the particular originating points of each of their lives, he sees the basis for the life they have in common. It is like a wavering haze, glittering, pure but whirling about. This is the ultimate pivot point of floating sense faculties and sense objects............ When the sutra says "shimmering", it does not mean emitting light with physical form; rather, it is describing this flash of movement when it stirs and enters the womb. This is also the inner yin body.
Now this totally sounds like being in the astral realm in a manomaya.
Only if you can genuinely reach the level where "dreamlike thoughts are dissolved away, and you are always the same whether asleep or awake." If you can really get to this stage, you will sleep comfortably there, hear yourself snoring, and only have to sleep an hour to get the equivalent of seven hours' sleep.
Now this sounds even more like being conscious when you are asleep, and exploring the dream realms.
With pure thought you fly; with pure feeling you fall. People who play with thoughts go upwards, but people who are dragged around by feelings and desires can fall downwards.
This gave me some insight... Would this be the explanation that why beings are rebirthed according to their "habits"? If you have a ton of desires, you're just going to be dragged to that space, almost as if you're astral-travelling, but without a physical body to return to.
The whole universe, along with the individual person's physical and psychological being, the whole body and mind along with the universe: everything is fused together into one whole. It is like a crystal clear sphere, illuminated all the way through inside and out, its whole body suffused with light, without any obstructions.
But i guess one of the problems I have with his writing is that he uses a lot of those technical terms, alike to what you've said above, Jhanon. It's like he's saying a term and expecting people to know what he is specifically referring to. I guess it is more of a problem of expression, just like me confusing his meaning of "body generated by will". He also claims that Mahayanists are completely deluded because if they cannot even reach the Theravada achievement of no-mind, they shouldn't brag at all. He does list a few Pali Canon sutras in the early parts of the book. Haha okay, but that's not the point. The point is that he described all of that which is completely consistent with what I've learnt here.
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Haha okay so all that backstory for just one question: In his book, he wrote that in samadhi, the breath stops and the body becomes full of breath. Just wondering with reference to GWV's context, around which jhana does the breath stop? Would it be the first jhana?
But it doesn't seem so since I do tend to still have a little bit of a shallow breath while in first jhana.
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Haha okay so all that backstory for just one question: In his book, he wrote that in samadhi, the breath stops and the body becomes full of breath. Just wondering with reference to GWV's context, around which jhana does the breath stop? Would it be the first jhana?
But it doesn't seem so since I do tend to still have a little bit of a shallow breath while in first jhana.
It does indeed sound like Nan Huai Chin is speaking of the OOBE and immaterial domains, but there is also the implication of decent into hells after death, for those who cling, verses heavenly domains for those who do not cling.
On the breath. Most of those who meditate deeply do not have someone observing them closely, and historically there was no electronic monitoring equipment, so when one meditates to the depth of the 4th jhana one can no longer detect the breath; however, the breath will still be occurring, it will just be shallow, and slow.
Once I dated a woman who was a health professional. She awoke me several time in the year that we dated giving me CPR, because she thought that I had died, because she could not detect my breath, and I slept so deeply, when I was in OOBE.
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It does indeed sound like Nan Huai Chin is speaking of the OOBE and immaterial domains, but there is also the implication of decent into hells after death, for those who cling, verses heavenly domains for those who do not cling.
On the breath. Most of those who meditate deeply do not have someone observing them closely, and historically there was no electronic monitoring equipment, so when one meditates to the depth of the 4th jhana one can no longer detect the breath; however, the breath will still be occurring, it will just be shallow, and slow.
Once I dated a woman who was a health professional. She awoke me several time in the year that we dated giving me CPR, because she thought that I had died, because she could not detect my breath, and I slept so deeply, when I was in OOBE.
Your oxygen requirement must have really plunged, I can't imagine waking up with someone pumping my ribcage lol! I guess that says that at least in fourth or beyond, external respiration stops or becomes shallow enough.
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A new thing I realized...
When meditating yesterday, I realized that if I am already experiencing the auditory charism, it takes effort to go back into the tingling bliss of the first and second jhana (was wondering if going from first to second then to third could help me go into deeper states). But it seemed as if I could experience full body tingling this time, not just the ear.
This time I took some time to explore the visual charism and under my eyelids there were lights flashing green, purple, orange, white, as if it were some disco ball lol. I've never really realized it because I always kept my eyes closed and turned my awareness inwards into my mind.
A few memories came into my mind yesterday after the session.
I realized that when I was younger, I would unknowingly go into concentration practice. I remember when I was in a German class, when I finished my exam, I stared at this pin in a noticeboard, and then I realized I could go into an extremely hyper-focused mode, where everything around started to become luminous, almost to the point of obscuring my vision, leaving just the pin there. At that point of time, I was a quite rigorously scientific person, so I dismissed it as excessive activation of the photoreceptors in the eyeballs. The pin that I was focusing on disappeared, that was why I thought of it that way. But the point was, this wasn't the only time. I kept doing it again and again, focusing on random things in the car, in the park, in school, etc.
I also wondered why I haven't experienced a really drastic "dark night of the soul", then I realized that when I was young, I DID have a period of such depression. I believe I was about five years old, and I fell into a huge depression, saying that everything in the world was just redundant and people playing in their own sandboxes. Economies, mathematics and even the concept of money were just stories they've created to entertain themselves and distract themselves from who they are.
Being a kid, I was supposed to be addicted to television, but then after that period I didn't want to watch anything to do with television. I sort of realized, as if I was clinging on to lights appearing in an orderly fashion from a digital box and found it so redundant. All I wanted was to "space out", but in a way where I could look inwards. This was when I started seeing visions of this extremely bright point of light. To this date, I still can't figure out what it is.
Then I remember recently when I had a really bad sleep, I woke up to this vision under my eyelids. It was similar to this...
(http://mostpopularimages.org/hash/thumbs/8/3/8/d/838d-vector-mandala-indian-decorative-pattern-hand-drawn-vector-background-text-in-sanskrit-maha-mantra-195842831.jpg)
Except it was almost like it was a kaleidoscope. The words kept radiating out from the center. I tried to read the words and it seemed like they were ... Sanskrit maybe? Perhaps I should take up the language of Sanskrit? I've NEVER seen this language in my life before, so it can't be memory from this lifetime at least. My inner guess was that it was Sanskrit, since it looked a little squiggly, but I may be wrong.
PS: I was trying to find the name of this thing so I could find a picture of it, and it was only yesterday when I went to another cousin's house that I saw a picture of this "mantra" arranged in this manner. Kind of coincidental. So I saw the word "mantra" below it and then managed to google an example of it.
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Your oxygen requirement must have really plunged, I can't imagine waking up with someone pumping my ribcage lol! I guess that says that at least in fourth or beyond, external respiration stops or becomes shallow enough.
Yes, the oxygen requirement of someone in deep meditation seems to decline; however, until we have actually research data, we cannot conclude that the breath stops at any time during deep meditation. It just just slow, and become shallow.
Yes, it was a big shock to be dragged back from the heavenly domains by someone straddling my torso and giving my chest deep compressions, but it is the stuffy for comedy.
A new thing I realized...
When meditating yesterday, I realized that if I am already experiencing the auditory charism, it takes effort to go back into the tingling bliss of the first and second jhana (was wondering if going from first to second then to third could help me go into deeper states). But it seemed as if I could experience full body tingling this time, not just the ear.
If it takes effort to do anything with your awareness during meditation, then it should be avoided. Also, going from 2nd jhana to 3rd, is going deeper. Just allow yourself to develop along natural lines, and see where deep meditation takes you. We are just here to answer questions, not to direct your experience.
This time I took some time to explore the visual charism and under my eyelids there were lights flashing green, purple, orange, white, as if it were some disco ball lol. I've never really realized it because I always kept my eyes closed and turned my awareness inwards into my mind.
There is no reason to activate the mind in investigating the phenomena of deep meditation; however, when depth in meditation occurs, we are often presented with heightened awareness of the experience, which tends to leave a profound impression upon us.
The spherical light form is common in deep meditation. In Pali Buddhism it is referred to as a "kasina (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/kasina.htm)." Click the link for more info.
A few memories came into my mind yesterday after the session.
I realized that when I was younger, I would unknowingly go into concentration practice. I remember when I was in a German class, when I finished my exam, I stared at this pin in a noticeboard, and then I realized I could go into an extremely hyper-focused mode, where everything around started to become luminous, almost to the point of obscuring my vision, leaving just the pin there. At that point of time, I was a quite rigorously scientific person, so I dismissed it as excessive activation of the photoreceptors in the eyeballs. The pin that I was focusing on disappeared, that was why I thought of it that way. But the point was, this wasn't the only time. I kept doing it again and again, focusing on random things in the car, in the park, in school, etc.
Spacing out in class is common for the proto-contemplative, and often produces our first experiences of deep meditation, which tends to direct us into the contemplative, and even mystical, life.
I also wondered why I haven't experienced a really drastic "dark night of the soul", then I realized that when I was young, I DID have a period of such depression. I believe I was about five years old, and I fell into a huge depression, saying that everything in the world was just redundant and people playing in their own sandboxes. Economies, mathematics and even the concept of money were just stories they've created to entertain themselves and distract themselves from who they are.
Being a kid, I was supposed to be addicted to television, but then after that period I didn't want to watch anything to do with television. I sort of realized, as if I was clinging on to lights appearing in an orderly fashion from a digital box and found it so redundant. All I wanted was to "space out", but in a way where I could look inwards. This was when I started seeing visions of this extremely bright point of light. To this date, I still can't figure out what it is.
Many of us who become mystics later in life have early insights, and naturally fall into meditation practices that go deep, such as you described above. The spiritual crises come at different times to us, so do not think that you are completely done with it. It will come when you are presented with a need to make a deep change in your life. Essentially I found there is a spiritual crisis following the attainment of each stage of depth in meditation.
Then I remember recently when I had a really bad sleep, I woke up to this vision under my eyelids. It was similar to this...
(http://mostpopularimages.org/hash/thumbs/8/3/8/d/838d-vector-mandala-indian-decorative-pattern-hand-drawn-vector-background-text-in-sanskrit-maha-mantra-195842831.jpg)
Except it was almost like it was a kaleidoscope. The words kept radiating out from the center. I tried to read the words and it seemed like they were ... Sanskrit maybe? Perhaps I should take up the language of Sanskrit? I've NEVER seen this language in my life before, so it can't be memory from this lifetime at least. My inner guess was that it was Sanskrit, since it looked a little squiggly, but I may be wrong.
PS: I was trying to find the name of this thing so I could find a picture of it, and it was only yesterday when I went to another cousin's house that I saw a picture of this "mantra" arranged in this manner. Kind of coincidental. So I saw the word "mantra" below it and then managed to google an example of it.
The image is known in Sanskrit Hinduism/Buddhism as a "mandala." I too had visions of mandalas and Sanskrit writing at various points in my youth; however, I traveled through Asia early in my teens, so I was exposed to quite a bit of Asian religious paraphernalia at a fairly early age. To me, seeing religious paraphernalia in a vision prior to exposure is evidence of reincarnation.
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Yes, it was a big shock to be dragged back from the heavenly domains by someone straddling my torso and giving my chest deep compressions, but it is the stuffy for comedy.
That is awesome comedy material hahaha.
If it takes effort to do anything with your awareness during meditation, then it should be avoided. Also, going from 2nd jhana to 3rd, is going deeper. Just allow yourself to develop along natural lines, and see where deep meditation takes you. We are just here to answer questions, not to direct your experience.
Thank you, I understand.
Many of us who become mystics later in life have early insights, and naturally fall into meditation practices that go deep, such as you described above. The spiritual crises come at different times to us, so do not think that you are completely done with it. It will come when you are presented with a need to make a deep change in your life. Essentially I found there is a spiritual crisis following the attainment of each stage of depth in meditation.
I do believe that the poor sleep I am getting, etc is part of the fourth stage you described in the Dark Night of the Soul video series. It is quite a scary feeling and I feel as if I'm subconsciously trying to shun it. Maybe that's why I'm stuck in the third jhana. I've been dipping my toe into the cold water for a lot of times and I know that my fear has reduced a lot from previously, but there's just this part of me that seems to be avoiding the experience, a little trauma of sorts.
The image is known in Sanskrit Hinduism/Buddhism as a "mandala." I too had visions of mandalas and Sanskrit writing at various points in my youth; however, I traveled through Asia early in my teens, so I was exposed to quite a bit of Asian religious paraphernalia at a fairly early age. To me, seeing religious paraphernalia in a vision prior to exposure is evidence of reincarnation.
I thought so that way as well... Perhaps I lived a past-life where I was exposed to this mandala and Sanskrit. I've never seen it too. Also, I found that when I was young, I had a few innate skills, such as being able to draw vivid pictures with a pencil that was "way out of my league" as the other children were drawing stick-men and I was drawing full caricatures. Another skill was being able to play the piano. It was as if I had this innate skill that might have been memory from a past life. I do wonder if muscle memory can be passed down, because it seems like a really strange thing since the body itself should be different. I seemed to have this affinity with creative arts as well. I can't help but think that yes, reincarnation is real.
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I do believe that the poor sleep I am getting, etc is part of the fourth stage you described in the Dark Night of the Soul video series. It is quite a scary feeling and I feel as if I'm subconsciously trying to shun it. Maybe that's why I'm stuck in the third jhana. I've been dipping my toe into the cold water for a lot of times and I know that my fear has reduced a lot from previously, but there's just this part of me that seems to be avoiding the experience, a little trauma of sorts.
Yes, I agree that your description sounds very much like you have hit a barrier that you cannot pass at this time; however, you are likely to pass it sometime in the future, if you maintain your contemplative life at or above your present level.
I thought so that way as well... Perhaps I lived a past-life where I was exposed to this mandala and Sanskrit. I've never seen it too. Also, I found that when I was young, I had a few innate skills, such as being able to draw vivid pictures with a pencil that was "way out of my league" as the other children were drawing stick-men and I was drawing full caricatures. Another skill was being able to play the piano. It was as if I had this innate skill that might have been memory from a past life. I do wonder if muscle memory can be passed down, because it seems like a really strange thing since the body itself should be different. I seemed to have this affinity with creative arts as well. I can't help but think that yes, reincarnation is real.
You sound like a polymath. Do you have a genius IQ?
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You sound like a polymath. Do you have a genius IQ?
I'm not sure if it constitutes a genius IQ but my WAIS score is about 145. Scored only 140 for a Raven's Progressive Matrices Test, I guess my fluid intelligence suffers a little. I haven't tried Cattell, other standards, etc.
I guess I do like studying a lot of different subjects and linking all of their principles together. Maybe that qualifies me as a polymath haha
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Well, from what I understand a score of 145 on either the WAIS or the Stanford-Binet Test is considered genius. I too have scored 145 on every IQ test that I have taken over the years. I do not happen to know what the test systems were that I took, but I score 145 as well.
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Well, from what I understand a score of 145 on either the WAIS or the Stanford-Binet Test is considered genius. I too have scored 145 on every IQ test that I have taken over the years. I do not happen to know what the test systems were that I took, but I score 145 as well.
From this source (http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/iq.htm), it would seem so. I always read the education level correlation instead and knew myself to be able to read a M.D., but never realized I would be in the genius range. That's a nice new thing to know lol
Do you think one's intelligence is somehow related to intuition and receptivity to wisdom? I remember hearing about this mathematician genius who intuitively solved algorithms without even going through logical processes. Perhaps genius is related to connecting to inspiration?
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I tried to do breath meditation yesterday, and it seemed like I couldn't enter third jhana yesterday. Tried to switch to the physical tingle or the ringing sound but it was so subtle that I couldn't hold on to it. Was pretty sure i dipped into second jhana for a while.
I guess I need to switch back to the body mindfulness instead, because I find that it gives me a more consistent experience of leading into the jhanas. I really wanted to try to replicate it with my breath meditation though. I figured that any meditation object would do as long as it took me to the one-pointedness in first jhana, but I guess it didn't work out.
Will update if I get any progress in my later sessions.
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From this source (http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/iq.htm), it would seem so. I always read the education level correlation instead and knew myself to be able to read a M.D., but never realized I would be in the genius range. That's a nice new thing to know lol
Do you think one's intelligence is somehow related to intuition and receptivity to wisdom? I remember hearing about this mathematician genius who intuitively solved algorithms without even going through logical processes. Perhaps genius is related to connecting to inspiration?
That is how it works for me. So, it might work for you that way. My father had a high IQ, but he was not very intuitive.
I tried to do breath meditation yesterday, and it seemed like I couldn't enter third jhana yesterday. Tried to switch to the physical tingle or the ringing sound but it was so subtle that I couldn't hold on to it. Was pretty sure i dipped into second jhana for a while.
I guess I need to switch back to the body mindfulness instead, because I find that it gives me a more consistent experience of leading into the jhanas. I really wanted to try to replicate it with my breath meditation though. I figured that any meditation object would do as long as it took me to the one-pointedness in first jhana, but I guess it didn't work out.
Will update if I get any progress in my later sessions.
Jhana attainment every time is not guaranteed. And, not everyone gets there the same way. So learn what works for you, and stick to it.
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Just wanted to confirm that I'm doing things right and not missing out anything.
1. I focus on a meditation object (breath, body, auditory charism, tingling).
2. At this point, my vision becomes bright and there is some form of inner light. (Probably the visual charism.)
3. Carrying on, the physical tingling unfolds throughout the whole body. Sometimes it does not go throughout the body and just localized at the head or chest, or places with thin skin like the soles or fingers.
4. I experience intense itching throughout the body. There is still a shallow breath going on.
5. Taking my focus away from the body as much as I can, I shift into the internal mental tingling. I feel a slightly different kind of mental tingling.
6. I shift my focus so it rests solely on the tinnitus-like sound. (Do I need to continue feeling the mental tingling instead?)
7. I slide back down into the itchy phase then move back up to the mental tingling. This goes on for quite a while.
Is this the way it is normally done? I'm no longer tensing up when I bring soft focus towards the sound, and I'm trying to ride it out. I sometimes get into this place full of light such that I don't feel the body, but this lasts for a few seconds, then I'm back down again. Is there a way I can improve this, or something I should look out for? It feels like I'm circling around the same thing for the past week.
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It sounds like you are doing very well, but when we find our awareness oscillating up and down is when we are not well established. So, keep practicing, eventually you will slide right through the itchy phase into a well established equanimity, then you will just keep drifting deeper from there. Good work.
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Bodhi, I find myself here as it is the last place dreaming with the unconsciousness cloud has been discussed.
"Dreaming within the collective unconscious is like being chased in the Matrix by "Agents." Whenever I fail to restitate (meditate deep enough then enter sleep), I always end up waking myself less than an hour into my sleep cuz some whacko's unconsciousness is messing with people.
Then I have to sit up and meditate to sleep so I can enjoy more accommodating destinations. It's not like I'm unwilling to do my part. I come back to the collective unconscious about an hour before I wake to help who I can. I have some interesting recent experiences of this."
I recorded this this morning. It's the first time I've had to wake myself in what seems to be a while. Trust me--I had it coming. I was heedless yesterday and didn't formally meditate when "guided" to. I felt you would find it helpful. It aligns with what has been said to you on this same thread.
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Just wanted to confirm that I'm doing things right and not missing out anything.
1. I focus on a meditation object (breath, body, auditory charism, tingling).
2. At this point, my vision becomes bright and there is some form of inner light. (Probably the visual charism.)
3. Carrying on, the physical tingling unfolds throughout the whole body. Sometimes it does not go throughout the body and just localized at the head or chest, or places with thin skin like the soles or fingers.
4. I experience intense itching throughout the body. There is still a shallow breath going on.
5. Taking my focus away from the body as much as I can, I shift into the internal mental tingling. I feel a slightly different kind of mental tingling.
6. I shift my focus so it rests solely on the tinnitus-like sound. (Do I need to continue feeling the mental tingling instead?)
7. I slide back down into the itchy phase then move back up to the mental tingling. This goes on for quite a while.
Is this the way it is normally done? I'm no longer tensing up when I bring soft focus towards the sound, and I'm trying to ride it out. I sometimes get into this place full of light such that I don't feel the body, but this lasts for a few seconds, then I'm back down again. Is there a way I can improve this, or something I should look out for? It feels like I'm circling around the same thing for the past week.
In my experience, i first learned how to absorb into at least second Jhana every time I sat for meditation. That means simply placing your awareness in your body until a pleasant sensation is noticed. Then you STAY with that charism/nimitta until the second jhana, where there is no longer any effort required to stay absorbed.
Now this next part took me some time to realize. But it's possible to meditate deeply and yet make painfully slow progress in mastering jhana. This led to aversion to jhana, because jhana became just "a pleasant rest" for me--even though I was accessing third-fifth samadhi.
This was my experience for most of a year after joining this forum. There was an over-commitment to jhana, and in the process, I was suppressing other factors of enlightenment--namely investigation/insight. Sure, they were still there, but far more suppressed than absorption.
Seems like it's a package deal, right? Yeah, it is. But what is "mastering jhana?" In my experience, it's learning to balance and utilize all the factors of enlightenment while in jhana. But so for, it's mainly been very beneficial for me to absorb and let the intuition/insight do it's investigations.
So, having gotten to second jhana, I then let go, leaving my PERIPHERY awareness to intuitively scan the experience. Since your primary consciousness is still absorbed in the "constant" charism which got you to second jhana, then a marriage happens.
The intuition is investigating the experience with the periphery awareness while the primary consciousness enjoys the pleasure of the main charism. The intuition reveals more about jhana with the fuel of the primary consciousness.
Gradually, this leads to the primary consciousness expanding. So that soon, when you sit down to meditate, you are aware of not just the tingling in your hands--but an expanded body of charisms/Nimitta. Additionally, I experiences tremendously boosted courage and confidence, thus allowing me to access far more "full" experiences.
I don't know how much wellbeing this information will lead you to. I'm essentially trying to succinctly reveal the main stages I've gone through while learning to master jhana. Keep in mind I do not consider myself a jhana master, but that may also be why this could be helpful.
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Bodhi, I find myself here as it is the last place dreaming with the unconsciousness cloud has been discussed.
"Dreaming within the collective unconscious is like being chased in the Matrix by "Agents." Whenever I fail to restitate (meditate deep enough then enter sleep), I always end up waking myself less than an hour into my sleep cuz some whacko's unconsciousness is messing with people.
Then I have to sit up and meditate to sleep so I can enjoy more accommodating destinations. It's not like I'm unwilling to do my part. I come back to the collective unconscious about an hour before I wake to help who I can. I have some interesting recent experiences of this."
I recorded this this morning. It's the first time I've had to wake myself in what seems to be a while. Trust me--I had it coming. I was heedless yesterday and didn't formally meditate when "guided" to. I felt you would find it helpful. It aligns with what has been said to you on this same thread.
Thank you for posting this, it does shed some light on how it works.
In my experience, i first learned how to absorb into at least second Jhana every time I sat for meditation. That means simply placing your awareness in your body until a pleasant sensation is noticed. Then you STAY with that charism/nimitta until the second jhana, where there is no longer any effort required to stay absorbed.
I've found that to be the case in the past as well, thank you for the reminder because I've forgotten about that.
Now this next part took me some time to realize. But it's possible to meditate deeply and yet make painfully slow progress in mastering jhana. This led to aversion to jhana, because jhana became just "a pleasant rest" for me--even though I was accessing third-fifth samadhi.
This was my experience for most of a year after joining this forum. There was an over-commitment to jhana, and in the process, I was suppressing other factors of enlightenment--namely investigation/insight. Sure, they were still there, but far more suppressed than absorption.
Seems like it's a package deal, right? Yeah, it is. But what is "mastering jhana?" In my experience, it's learning to balance and utilize all the factors of enlightenment while in jhana. But so for, it's mainly been very beneficial for me to absorb and let the intuition/insight do it's investigations.
Thank you for the insight here, it seems to bear quite a bit of experiential insight.
So, having gotten to second jhana, I then let go, leaving my PERIPHERY awareness to intuitively scan the experience. Since your primary consciousness is still absorbed in the "constant" charism which got you to second jhana, then a marriage happens.
The intuition is investigating the experience with the periphery awareness while the primary consciousness enjoys the pleasure of the main charism. The intuition reveals more about jhana with the fuel of the primary consciousness.
Gradually, this leads to the primary consciousness expanding. So that soon, when you sit down to meditate, you are aware of not just the tingling in your hands--but an expanded body of charisms/Nimitta. Additionally, I experiences tremendously boosted courage and confidence, thus allowing me to access far more "full" experiences.
I don't know how much wellbeing this information will lead you to. I'm essentially trying to succinctly reveal the main stages I've gone through while learning to master jhana. Keep in mind I do not consider myself a jhana master, but that may also be why this could be helpful.
Hmm, I'm not very sure by what you mean by the "primary" consciousness or periphery awareness. Do you mean that discriminatory or knowing "essence" at the back of the mind watching the rest of the sensations and experiences float up? Or the consciousness that is processing the experiences and classifying them as pleasurable/non-pleasurable/neutral?
Hmm, does this mean that the intuition itself is somewhat... together with the awareness? Well, while in the foreground where the consciousness seems to be functioning at the experiential level, etc.
Did I understand it wrongly? Haha, perhaps I'm not at a deep enough insight level to fully comprehend as of yet..
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I don't have the language for it yet. So I feel it is my fault. I think the main point is finding ways to meditate that thoroughly resonate with your "archetype." Which you are learning to do.
The itching/feeling the subtlest physical sounds shockwave through my body/ and other Hypersensitivities don't bother me anymore. How I would put in words is that the way in which I meditate and experience absorption is so resonant to my innate affinities, that the Hypersensitivities just pass right through me. I'm too committed and enthralled by the insight the intuition is digging up.
Maybe that's broadly called "equanimity."
The awareness which is cataloging and labeling--as you put it--doesn't really do that anymore in my case. It has a job to do, and it loves it's job. So while it is the same background awareness, it's been re-programmed to dig for insight, allowing the primary consciousness to simply experience the experience as it arises.
Once it began doing this, the itching and shock waving became pleasanr. Like little jolts of ecstatic energy. Jhananda has stated elsewhere that eventually one comes to enjoy the hypersensitivity. This is my attempt to explain how it occurred for me--as we appear to be of similar archetypes.
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Then I remember recently when I had a really bad sleep, I woke up to this vision under my eyelids. It was similar to this...
(http://mostpopularimages.org/hash/thumbs/8/3/8/d/838d-vector-mandala-indian-decorative-pattern-hand-drawn-vector-background-text-in-sanskrit-maha-mantra-195842831.jpg)
Except it was almost like it was a kaleidoscope. The words kept radiating out from the center. I tried to read the words and it seemed like they were ... Sanskrit maybe? Perhaps I should take up the language of Sanskrit? I've NEVER seen this language in my life before, so it can't be memory from this lifetime at least. My inner guess was that it was Sanskrit, since it looked a little squiggly, but I may be wrong.
PS: I was trying to find the name of this thing so I could find a picture of it, and it was only yesterday when I went to another cousin's house that I saw a picture of this "mantra" arranged in this manner. Kind of coincidental. So I saw the word "mantra" below it and then managed to google an example of it.
Interesting. I remember having a lucid dream last year where my whole field of vision had this strange language floating around , similar to this. There were all these mathematical formulas too.
I have heard this happens to lots of people, with tribal paintings and symbols from different cultures. Is it past lives or did I see it at some point in my life? ....who knows.
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The awareness which is cataloging and labeling--as you put it--doesn't really do that anymore in my case. It has a job to do, and it loves it's job. So while it is the same background awareness, it's been re-programmed to dig for insight, allowing the primary consciousness to simply experience the experience as it arises.
Cool. It is interesting to see how the mind is split, and there are many different parts for many different purposes (too keep it simple, we could say the five aggregates, but we know there are many more). All the hindrances and fetters I consider minds/voices, each with their own perspective and purpose. The front runner, all the senses, each jhanas I would considered their own mind, and more We just with between them.
As well, I have noticed there are many different "general personalities" which uses the totality of the mind in its own way. For example, the kid and adult version of you. Even that I think is too simplistic. I see even the voices, say of greed, will speak to the "general personalities" in the same way the GP's will speak to each other or over top of the smaller voices.
But that is making me sound a little too crazy. I am grounded to who I am, whatever that is.
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There is huge literature on Magick itself, so I started out with the Wiccans and traced the origin back to Aleister Crowley. Man, the stories of this man were evil to a new degree. I didn't think much of it at first as I didn't know, but I came across his works. Crowley was a very smart individual apparently and had studied and practiced many different religions, including Buddhism and Taoism. His works were quite interesting - See The Book of the Law (http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm) & Magick Without Tears (http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/). However, due to the nature of secrecy within the "society" he was in, a lot of his work takes time to unravel and decipher. I actually tried some of these practices and it did give me a sense of "euphoria" - such as the Kabbalistic Cross ritual or Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram.
These links here are rather interesting, this "The Book of Law" in particular. It's coo-coo, yet intentionally I believe, as through reading through the first 50 verses or so I have seen several recognizable allegory. I plan to read this, as well as his letters, even if he seems rather twisted.