Author Topic: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana  (Read 21534 times)

Naman

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Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« on: March 11, 2016, 03:04:19 PM »
 Following is the discussion earlier today i had with Jhananda. I wud like to hear what others have to say as well.

"ME:
I m now regularly meditating. My question is should i strive to put in more
 hours or should i achieve for greater penetration(intensity) because i noticed
 that i can reach a thotless state but if i stay longer there my mind tends to
 wander off after sometime. Its like mind gets bored(i m not sure if i should
 call it boredom, cause i dont feel restless or irritation or dullness but
 crispness of meditation starts getting muddled by thoughts) cause nothing
 interesting is happening.
 Will extending the amount of time i meditate ascend me faster through jhanas?
 And i would like it if u can point out the stage im at, i see that
 white\golden color are always there but dispersed. That bright orb will appear
 sometimes only while meditating, though i hear the ringing everytime. What
 does this mean? Have i reachedthird jhana or not ? and yeah sometimes mind
 wanders off into some thoughts. Sometimes they r in the background only with
 periods of thotlessness.
 How should i go about it, i used to meditate for about an hour two times a day
 few days back. Now i reduced to 30 mins only.

HIM:
It is good to find that you are meditating regularly now.  It is likely with
more time spent in meditation one will achieve greater depth and
penetration.

It is good that you are arriving at a still, thoughtless state.  It is quite
normal for the mind to reassert itself over and over again, during a long
meditation sit, so this is another reason why longer sessions are advised
for those who wish to penetrate to deeper levels of meditation, because then
one becomes habituated to a still mind, instead of a busy mind.

Before we start a contemplative life we are often habituated to attending to
an out of control mind, so it can take years to bring the "monkey-mind"
under disciplined control.  We do this with attending to regular long
meditation sits, as well as bringing our mindful-self-awareness to keeping
our mind still throughout the day.

So, when we become skilled at long meditation sits, then we will find that
we will drop into deep meditation (aka jhana) sooner in our meditation
sessions, which will bring us to greater depth in less time and effort.

The still mind is the second jhana.  It is the gateway to deeper levels of
meditation experience.

When the various charisms (aka nimittas) arise, then we are in the 3rd or
deeper level of meditation experience.  For instance, the ringing, and
scintillating light are common in the 3rd and deeper levels of meditation
experience.

The luminous light orb is a characteristic of depths from the 4th to the 5th
jhana.  So, you are doing well, but at meditating only for 30 minutes you
are not likely to go deeper than the 2nd jhana.  Whereas, meditating for an
hour or more, 2 or more times a day, is likely to bring you to the 3rd and
to 4th jhana, and deeper.

ME: (This part, i really wud like to how other people r going abt it)

One thing specifically i want to knw.. I have been trying concentrating in third eye region where i see light.. Or in the ringing....but i cudnt somehow cross over.. Uk the transition phase u talk about..
Now that i try and recall the two three times when i did, it happend when i reached a total silence and i tried to be lost in third eye region or ringing in ear... Now also if i try to lose myself in the blissfull feeling of meditation, i feel that i can cross over.. But i never felt so with intently gazing into the light !!
Is it so ? Shud i be going after nimitttas with an intent to dissolve in them ? Otherwise my eyes flutter, trying to gaze into that light.

The dissolving feeling i can relate to going into sleep... Where we dont put effort to bring sleep on,, but we rather just lose ourself in the feeling of sleep and let it take over.

Whats your opinion or how people or specifically u experience it?

HIM:

At first we may have trouble integrating the charisms together.  I found after decades of deep meditation that I acquired greater depth in meditation when I learned to meditate deeply, while attending to all of the charisms, such that they become a multi-sensory orchestra of charismatic bliss in deep meditation, which I dissolve into.  Perhaps one day you too will find this in your deep meditation states.

Jhanananda

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2016, 12:27:57 PM »
Thank-you, rastogi97, for posting our email dialog here for the benefit of others.  Below are two more inquiries from you today, so since you have posted the rest of the dialog here, I figure I might as well just respond here to your next two questions.

Quote from: rastogi97
Sorry for me asking this , just to get a clear idea.. If have u been doing this since the begining to go into transition state... By dissolving into it ???

I asked the question about dissolving specifically cause for me whenever i had the experience of 5th jhana.. I now realize that i had to shift my consciousnes from "doing meditation" to "losing into the formless experience". All these days when im trying to make it happen by gazing more intently into the third eye region, i now feel like i have been making a mistake of "doing and achieving" it. This is important for me cause i think if its like dissolving/ losing urself i can do it better and see some possibility that way. So please guide me on this.

Correct, I learned to let go and allow the process to happen on its own. Because, I found when one succeeds at deep meditation one learns to stop doing, which is what the nir-vitaka and nir-viccara are all about in the suttas.  Here we stop trying to make things happen, and just let them happen, while attending to the charisms, and keeping the mind still.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

Naman

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2016, 01:19:32 PM »
Thanks alot for the reply :) I will carry on keeping ur instructions in mind and post back once i learn to get to 5th Jhana.

Naman

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 11:24:29 AM »
Thank-you, rastogi97, for posting our email dialog here for the benefit of others.  Below are two more inquiries from you today, so since you have posted the rest of the dialog here, I figure I might as well just respond here to your next two questions.

Quote from: rastogi97
Sorry for me asking this , just to get a clear idea.. If have u been doing this since the begining to go into transition state... By dissolving into it ???

I asked the question about dissolving specifically cause for me whenever i had the experience of 5th jhana.. I now realize that i had to shift my consciousnes from "doing meditation" to "losing into the formless experience". All these days when im trying to make it happen by gazing more intently into the third eye region, i now feel like i have been making a mistake of "doing and achieving" it. This is important for me cause i think if its like dissolving/ losing urself i can do it better and see some possibility that way. So please guide me on this.

Correct, I learned to let go and allow the process to happen on its own. Because, I found when one succeeds at deep meditation one learns to stop doing, which is what the nir-vitaka and nir-viccara are all about in the suttas.  Here we stop trying to make things happen, and just let them happen, while attending to the charisms, and keeping the mind still.

I know its been long since i have posted about my progress but i want to redo this and update as i increased meditation time.

Now im able to achieve obe, not fully lucid i wud say, once i goto sleep after meditation. Funny thing is that, that when i m sleepy in my meditation obe follows that day/session but when my session is crisp and i try to get obe thru sleep it doesnt happen. I dont understand this.
And yeah im flying in my dreams alot and getting relatively lucid and sometimes horrifying dreams.

Should i be expecting obe on a regular basis in near future as a mark of my progress? Or this pattern of getting obe will remain unpredictable ? And seriously i dont even know if im progressing or just going up and down.

rougeleader115

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2017, 12:56:55 AM »
Naman!! I am experiencing the obe/lucid dream just the way you describe right now. It's been a 3-4 years now with a definitely percievable increase in lucidity as time goes on. Though I'm sure it would be faster if one had the courage and discipline I have lacked at times. I found myself telling my dad the other night in a dream that we could fly. I have had it happen dozens of times where I realize in a dream I can use my intention and relax and I am able to fly and hover. The funny part for me is I always think the dream is real during it so I'm running around telling my dream family members "see I told you we all can fly, ya just gotta relax!".

I do have more times that I realize I am in a dream and that I am a separate lucid entity within it, but 90% of the time I'm just aware of random occurrances and circumstances I end up in aND end up reacting like it was real life even when it is entirely ridiculous.

Thanks for the update,
Rougeleader

Naman

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 02:07:12 AM »
Naman!! I am experiencing the obe/lucid dream just the way you describe right now. It's been a 3-4 years now with a definitely percievable increase in lucidity as time goes on. Though I'm sure it would be faster if one had the courage and discipline I have lacked at times. I found myself telling my dad the other night in a dream that we could fly. I have had it happen dozens of times where I realize in a dream I can use my intention and relax and I am able to fly and hover. The funny part for me is I always think the dream is real during it so I'm running around telling my dream family members "see I told you we all can fly, ya just gotta relax!".

I do have more times that I realize I am in a dream and that I am a separate lucid entity within it, but 90% of the time I'm just aware of random occurrances and circumstances I end up in aND end up reacting like it was real life even when it is entirely ridiculous.

Thanks for the update,
Rougeleader
Thanks for the reply Rougeleader.

That sounds like me. I also dont realize in a dream that it is a dream so i just keep going on with it like real life. Maybe thats why i feel like that i never sleep :/

How much have u been meditating?? For me right now its around 3 to 4 hrs.

Im looking forward for it to go to the next level i.e. lucid obes, perhaps more meditation is just what we need.

Best of luck to you :)

rougeleader115

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 02:29:14 AM »
Thanks for the reply Rougeleader.

That sounds like me. I also dont realize in a dream that it is a dream so i just keep going on with it like real life. Maybe thats why i feel like that i never sleep :/


Haha I often feel the same way. Its like slipping from this world to some random one and coming back.


How much have u been meditating?? For me right now its around 3 to 4 hrs.

I get 2-3 hours during the weekdays throughout the day. I get maybe 1-2 hour sessions on the weekend because my girlfriend is home and does not like to meditate often. But all nights of the week I meditate when I am going to sleep and every time I wake up through the night till I fall back asleep. That may happen 3 or 4 times a night and upwards of 10 times on nights that the energy doesn't let me sleep well. But most times it swoons me back to sleep easily.
Im looking forward for it to go to the next level i.e. lucid obes, perhaps more meditation is just what we need.
I'm looking forward to it to! I try not to crave for it but I can't help but be excited. I really want to experiment with meditating in a dream if that's possible. That and explore the various higher deva realms Jeffrey often talks about, they sound like plenty inspiration. I agree though, I think more meditation time is needed, and better moment to moment awareness of the charisms.

Best wishes to you as well,
Rougeleader

Jhanananda

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2017, 05:11:38 PM »
I know its been long since i have posted about my progress but i want to redo this and update as i increased meditation time.

Now im able to achieve obe, not fully lucid i wud say, once i goto sleep after meditation. Funny thing is that, that when i m sleepy in my meditation obe follows that day/session but when my session is crisp and i try to get obe thru sleep it doesnt happen. I dont understand this.
And yeah im flying in my dreams alot and getting relatively lucid and sometimes horrifying dreams.

Should i be expecting obe on a regular basis in near future as a mark of my progress? Or this pattern of getting obe will remain unpredictable ? And seriously i dont even know if im progressing or just going up and down.

The OOBE and lucid dreaming are definitely signs of progress in the contemplative life.  I found that the more time I dedicated every day to meditation, then the more lucid my dream-time would be, and the more OOBEs I would have as well. In fact, I became lucid 24-7 some decades ago.

It is my belief that the references in the Pali Canon for amatta, which is commonly translated as the "deathless;" and the references in the Gospels to something called eternal life refer directly to arriving at this level of 24/7 lucidity that I experience, and I am writing about now, and you, Naman, and rougeleader115, are certainly heading that way.

Quote from: wiki
eternal life
Eternal life traditionally refers to continued life after death, as outlined in Christian eschatology...

In the Synoptic Gospels and the Pauline Letters, eternal life is generally regarded as a future experience, but the Gospel of John differs from them in its emphasis on eternal life as a "present possession"...John 5:24

"He who hears my word, and believes him that sent me, has eternal life, and comes not into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."[3] In John, the purpose for the incarnation, death, resurrection and glorification of The Word was to provide eternal life to humanity.

I'm looking forward to it to! I try not to crave for it but I can't help but be excited. I really want to experiment with meditating in a dream if that's possible. That and explore the various higher deva realms Jeffrey often talks about, they sound like plenty inspiration. I agree though, I think more meditation time is needed, and better moment to moment awareness of the charisms.

Best wishes to you as well,
Rougeleader

Yes, I have meditated during the sleep state, and every time I do so it leads to a very profound meditation experience.  So, I suggest that you give it a try.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

Naman

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2017, 07:39:01 PM »
I know its been long since i have posted about my progress but i want to redo this and update as i increased meditation time.

Now im able to achieve obe, not fully lucid i wud say, once i goto sleep after meditation. Funny thing is that, that when i m sleepy in my meditation obe follows that day/session but when my session is crisp and i try to get obe thru sleep it doesnt happen. I dont understand this.
And yeah im flying in my dreams alot and getting relatively lucid and sometimes horrifying dreams.

Should i be expecting obe on a regular basis in near future as a mark of my progress? Or this pattern of getting obe will remain unpredictable ? And seriously i dont even know if im progressing or just going up and down.

The OOBE and lucid dreaming are definitely signs of progress in the contemplative life.  I found that the more time I dedicated every day to meditation, then the more lucid my dream-time would be, and the more OOBEs I would have as well. In fact, I became lucid 24-7 some decades ago.

It is my belief that the references in the Pali Canon for amatta, which is commonly translated as the "deathless;" and the references in the Gospels to something called eternal life refer directly to arriving at this level of 24/7 lucidity that I experience, and I am writing about now, and you, Naman, and rougeleader115, are certainly heading that way.

Quote from: wiki
eternal life
Eternal life traditionally refers to continued life after death, as outlined in Christian eschatology...

In the Synoptic Gospels and the Pauline Letters, eternal life is generally regarded as a future experience, but the Gospel of John differs from them in its emphasis on eternal life as a "present possession"...John 5:24

"He who hears my word, and believes him that sent me, has eternal life, and comes not into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."[3] In John, the purpose for the incarnation, death, resurrection and glorification of The Word was to provide eternal life to humanity.

I'm looking forward to it to! I try not to crave for it but I can't help but be excited. I really want to experiment with meditating in a dream if that's possible. That and explore the various higher deva realms Jeffrey often talks about, they sound like plenty inspiration. I agree though, I think more meditation time is needed, and better moment to moment awareness of the charisms.

Best wishes to you as well,
Rougeleader

Yes, I have meditated during the sleep state, and every time I do so it leads to a very profound meditation experience.  So, I suggest that you give it a try.

Thankyou Jeffrey.
I wanted to say that my dreams are becoming more movie like and feels more "real" , but i still lack control. Infact im waking up every now and often because of nightmarish dreams, and this post im writing is just after one such episode, its 1.00 am here. i woke up all sweaty. Its mostly subconscious insecurities, fears etc which are coming up, also seems like cud be about past life. One time earlier i dreamed about a sequence where i was shot in head as capital punishment during second world war. And i woke up in my bed right when they fired, as if i went unconscious there after my death and woke up in my bed. Crazy! Many more such experiences. They r returning back lol not enjoyable for the time being. I have been thru this state many times though, and dropped back to lesser conscious states due to lack of practice. However this time i m determined about getting thru.

Naman

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2017, 07:42:02 PM »
Thanks for the reply Rougeleader.

That sounds like me. I also dont realize in a dream that it is a dream so i just keep going on with it like real life. Maybe thats why i feel like that i never sleep :/


Haha I often feel the same way. Its like slipping from this world to some random one and coming back.


How much have u been meditating?? For me right now its around 3 to 4 hrs.

I get 2-3 hours during the weekdays throughout the day. I get maybe 1-2 hour sessions on the weekend because my girlfriend is home and does not like to meditate often. But all nights of the week I meditate when I am going to sleep and every time I wake up through the night till I fall back asleep. That may happen 3 or 4 times a night and upwards of 10 times on nights that the energy doesn't let me sleep well. But most times it swoons me back to sleep easily.
Im looking forward for it to go to the next level i.e. lucid obes, perhaps more meditation is just what we need.
I'm looking forward to it to! I try not to crave for it but I can't help but be excited. I really want to experiment with meditating in a dream if that's possible. That and explore the various higher deva realms Jeffrey often talks about, they sound like plenty inspiration. I agree though, I think more meditation time is needed, and better moment to moment awareness of the charisms.

Best wishes to you as well,
Rougeleader

I too want to be able to explore those dimensions in near future.

Thanks for your reply and Best wishes to you too Rogue :)

Jhanananda

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 04:38:16 PM »
Thankyou Jeffrey.
I wanted to say that my dreams are becoming more movie like and feels more "real" , but i still lack control. Infact im waking up every now and often because of nightmarish dreams, and this post im writing is just after one such episode, its 1.00 am here. i woke up all sweaty. Its mostly subconscious insecurities, fears etc which are coming up, also seems like cud be about past life. One time earlier i dreamed about a sequence where i was shot in head as capital punishment during second world war. And i woke up in my bed right when they fired, as if i went unconscious there after my death and woke up in my bed. Crazy! Many more such experiences. They r returning back lol not enjoyable for the time being. I have been thru this state many times though, and dropped back to lesser conscious states due to lack of practice. However this time i m determined about getting thru.

Recalling previous life times, especially the death, is common for lucid dreamers, and can be, as you stated above, very dramatic, and end in waking up.  I find the waking up afterwards is just the product of the intense fear that is often associated with death.

Control will allow one to move out of a traumatic experience while in an OOBE.  This just takes mastering deep meditation, and meditating a lot.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

Naman

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2017, 01:55:23 PM »
I wanted to tell that i am back to the point where as i sit within 5,10 mins my breath almost stops and then thereafter it remains fairly constant in terms of peace and depth. And i feel  that it cant get many deeper in terms of equanimity when im meditating.
Of course there is feeling that i can remain like this forever in meditation but i dont bother abt extending my sessions because i know whenever i will sit, it will come back within mintues and its very accessible for me.

So im assuming im back to 4th Jhana. Just wanted u, Jeffery to comment on this.

Im really wanting to experience jhanas beyond 4th one, as i have been upto here, 4th many times now.  i want to keep the conditions of life same as im in right now and keeping at bay people, situations which dragged me down last time. Maybe those factors wont effect me this time but im wary of trying it.
But its so comforting to hit this spot in practice, which u can produce same depth consistently that too a deep one.
And yeah i m having obes, very short though, not regularly, not hyper lucid ones yet.

Thanks for all the support and kwnldge.

Jhanananda

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2017, 02:47:35 PM »
I wanted to tell that i am back to the point where as i sit within 5,10 mins my breath almost stops and then thereafter it remains fairly constant in terms of peace and depth. And i feel  that it cant get many deeper in terms of equanimity when im meditating.
Of course there is feeling that i can remain like this forever in meditation but i dont bother abt extending my sessions because i know whenever i will sit, it will come back within mintues and its very accessible for me.

So im assuming im back to 4th Jhana. Just wanted u, Jeffery to comment on this.

It sounds like you are.

Im really wanting to experience jhanas beyond 4th one, as i have been upto here, 4th many times now.  i want to keep the conditions of life same as im in right now and keeping at bay people, situations which dragged me down last time. Maybe those factors wont effect me this time but im wary of trying it.
But its so comforting to hit this spot in practice, which u can produce same depth consistently that too a deep one.
And yeah i m having obes, very short though, not regularly, not hyper lucid ones yet.

Thanks for all the support and kwnldge.

The path just leads to meditating deeply, with complete abandon.  The OOBE is next.  To do that consistently one meditates to the 4th jhana when the body is lying down.  Eventually the OOBE will begin, then one learns to negotiate the OOBE through progressively deeper levels, which are higher domains of existence.  At that point you are your own teacher, and you just keep going.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

Naman

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2017, 04:31:00 PM »
Is Lying down a necessity to go to next level of jhanas? Or can it be done while sitting upright? However i have experienced that no matter how deep meditation is, i do move a little bit at some point of time which i feel can be a hindrance.. This i can say because how i have felt the sensations build during lying down meditation, when body is numb because its totally motion less, n how even a slight movement isnt permissible.

Maybe lying down is a requirement initially? Maybe once when u learn to goto immaterial domains lying down, u can then attempt it sitting up right as well ? Is it so? Or can i carry on with sitting meditations only?

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Re: Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2017, 02:39:49 PM »
Is Lying down a necessity to go to next level of jhanas? Or can it be done while sitting upright?

Lying down meditation is essential for going beyond the 4th stage of samadhi, because the deepest levels of relaxation are required to do so.

However i have experienced that no matter how deep meditation is, i do move a little bit at some point of time which i feel can be a hindrance.. This i can say because how i have felt the sensations build during lying down meditation, when body is numb because its totally motion less, n how even a slight movement isnt permissible.

Correct, and this is why lying down meditation is essential for very deep meditation states.  You may be aware that Siddhartha Gautama meditated mostly lying down.  Other mystics did as well.

Maybe lying down is a requirement initially? Maybe once when u learn to goto immaterial domains lying down, u can then attempt it sitting up right as well ? Is it so? Or can i carry on with sitting meditations only?

No, because the 4 deeper levels are OOBEs, and when we are out of body, then there is nothing to hold the body up in sitting position.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.