Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana

[Naman]

Thankyou for the reply. I will do it that way.

[Jauho1979]

"Correct, and this is why lying down meditation is essential for very deep meditation states.  You may be aware that Siddhartha Gautama meditated mostly lying down.  Other mystics did as well."

Hi Jhananda,

Could you provide the sutta reference for this? I thought the Buddha lay down sometimes during a lecture because his back ached and then asked one of his disciples to take over the lecture. But I have never come across any sutta saying he meditated while lying down.

[Jhanananda]

Hi Jhananda,

Could you provide the sutta reference for this? I thought the Buddha lay down sometimes during a lecture because his back ached and then asked one of his disciples to take over the lecture. But I have never come across any sutta saying he meditated while lying down.

This is the best that I can do right now: Lying Down Meditation

[Frederick]

Hi Jhananda,

Could you provide the sutta reference for this? I thought the Buddha lay down sometimes during a lecture because his back ached and then asked one of his disciples to take over the lecture. But I have never come across any sutta saying he meditated while lying down.

This is the best that I can do right now: Lying Down Meditation

Excellent article. I'm going to start practicing this in addition to my regular sitting meditation so when the time comes that I can no longer sit, I can switch over to this style.

[Jauho1979]

I have been experiencing lucid dreams, nightmares, sleep paralysis, feeling of energy surging in my upper body (i.e. head to torso) in the 1st half an hour of sleep for the past few days, and I normally go to bed right after I have ended my meditation session.

And sometimes, during these scary lucid dreams, I will start chanting some basic mantra (like namo buddhaya) in the dream and that helps somewhat to keep me calm and make the experience last longer (as opposed to waking up in fear). Has anyone any other tips to help us mainatin our calm and equanimity during these situations?

[Jhanananda]

Excellent article. I'm going to start practicing this in addition to my regular sitting meditation so when the time comes that I can no longer sit, I can switch over to this style.

Thanks, Frederick.  I am glad you found the article of use to your contemplative life.  Some time after you begin laying down meditation practice, you are likely to start lucid dreaming.  At some point after that, then you are likely to begin experiencing the occasional OOBE.

I have been experiencing lucid dreams, nightmares, sleep paralysis, feeling of energy surging in my upper body (i.e. head to torso) in the 1st half an hour of sleep for the past few days, and I normally go to bed right after I have ended my meditation session.

These phenomena are all par for the course for those who find the deep meditation experience.

And sometimes, during these scary lucid dreams, I will start chanting some basic mantra (like namo buddhaya) in the dream and that helps somewhat to keep me calm and make the experience last longer (as opposed to waking up in fear). Has anyone any other tips to help us maintain our calm and equanimity during these situations?

Yes, those who begin to become lucid in the sleep state, and/or begin to have OOBEs, are likely to encounter some disturbing content in such states. 

Here we have to investigate what actually is the phenomena that arises in an OBEE?  Atheists and materialists are likely to interpret these phenomena that arise in an OBEE as nothing more than the internal mental content of one's mind.  From experiencing these phenomena that arises in an OBEE most of my life, the best explanation that I can come up with is these phenomena are the content of the immaterial domains; or what some authors call the "astral plane." 

If the above is true, then we can control where we are in the immaterial domains.  I and my son have both found this to true.  So, the next time you experience unpleasant phenomena on the immaterial domains, then try to just move to a higher layer there, where you will find more pleasant phenomena occurring.

[Jauho1979]

Thanks Jhananda for your reply and advice.

Perhaps you have covered this in one of your articles, but what is it (i.e. proof) that makes you believe that these experience are genuine OOBEs as opposed to the figment of our unconscious imagination? Is your conclusion derived from the fact that you can control what you do while in the immaterial domain as opposed to dream states where we do not have such free will?

In addition, do you have other 'proofs'/signs that indicate that our experiences are OOBES, and not just simple dreams and nightmares?

Thanks again.

[Naman]

Excellent article. I'm going to start practicing this in addition to my regular sitting meditation so when the time comes that I can no longer sit, I can switch over to this style.

Thanks, Frederick.  I am glad you found the article of use to your contemplative life.  Some time after you begin laying down meditation practice, you are likely to start lucid dreaming.  At some point after that, then you are likely to begin experiencing the occasional OOBE.

I have been experiencing lucid dreams, nightmares, sleep paralysis, feeling of energy surging in my upper body (i.e. head to torso) in the 1st half an hour of sleep for the past few days, and I normally go to bed right after I have ended my meditation session.

These phenomena are all par for the course for those who find the deep meditation experience.

And sometimes, during these scary lucid dreams, I will start chanting some basic mantra (like namo buddhaya) in the dream and that helps somewhat to keep me calm and make the experience last longer (as opposed to waking up in fear). Has anyone any other tips to help us maintain our calm and equanimity during these situations?

Yes, those who begin to become lucid in the sleep state, and/or begin to have OOBEs, are likely to encounter some disturbing content in such states. 

Here we have to investigate what actually is the phenomena that arises in an OBEE?  Atheists and materialists are likely to interpret these phenomena that arise in an OBEE as nothing more than the internal mental content of one's mind.  From experiencing these phenomena that arises in an OBEE most of my life, the best explanation that I can come up with is these phenomena are the content of the immaterial domains; or what some authors call the "astral plane." 

If the above is true, then we can control where we are in the immaterial domains.  I and my son have both found this to true.  So, the next time you experience unpleasant phenomena on the immaterial domains, then try to just move to a higher layer there, where you will find more pleasant phenomena occurring.

Hello,
Jeffrey you mentioned that we start experiencing occasional obes as we meditate lying down. My question is how long until obe comes under conscious control? I dont see much improvement for.myself, how long it usually takes it to.master the skill? How long it took for u until u cud experience obe every day or at will?

[bodhimind]

If the above is true, then we can control where we are in the immaterial domains.  I and my son have both found this to true.  So, the next time you experience unpleasant phenomena on the immaterial domains, then try to just move to a higher layer there, where you will find more pleasant phenomena occurring.

This is absolutely true. I simply had a single thought of an entity such as the Buddha or Jesus Christ and the entire realm lit up in an instant - to be more accurate, "I" was transported into a different 'frequency' of sorts within just one thought movement. This has happened multiple times.

I have felt that it is very similar to meditation, where we meditate and suddenly our 'samskaras' grab hold of us (karma) and we lose lucidity and control, letting it take over our body, speech and mind. Then suddenly we 'realize' or 'wake up' even for the slightest moment, that Mara the demon has taken over - and that waking up allows a short period of control to which we turn to the next available samskara - if it is positive, we can immediately go to a higher realm.

I think this also highlights how important it is for us to build virtue and have good conduct. When we fill our mind with positive samskaras, then it is only inevitable that at death of our bodies, at minimum we go to bright, joyful realms like the deva realms. This might explain why the Buddha said brahmavihara meditation leads to a minimum of deva birth. I believe however that the key is as Jhanananda expressed, 24-7 lucidity, which allows one to go beyond birth and death, time and space, and lives, upon departing from the physical shell.

I was curious, as Jhanananda once expressed that the arupa-jhanas are in fact more of immaterial domains, aka ayatanas, or in chinese buddhism, called 'jing-jie' which translates as "worlds", "states" or "realms".

From what I know, people are able to enter the so-called OBEs when severely sick (departing from the body) or when consciously practicing OBE through astral-travel. Is it possible that the four immaterial states can be traversed by people who have not attained the faculties of jhanas? And that it is only because of the power of jhana factors that allows one's 'spiritual body' to have more 'lucidity' and control over its faculties, such as going to past-and-future, clairvoyance, clairaudience, etc?

In that case I might see why arahants have graduated levels towards Buddhahood. I think this might be what the 'Mahayana' schools talk about as the Bodhisattva Bhumi stages, where the tenth and final stage is the dharmamegha or Cloud of Dharma, which is what Jhanananda describes as the Milky Way.

[Jhanananda]

Thanks Jhananda for your reply and advice.

Perhaps you have covered this in one of your articles, but what is it (i.e. proof) that makes you believe that these experience are genuine OOBEs as opposed to the figment of our unconscious imagination? Is your conclusion derived from the fact that you can control what you do while in the immaterial domain as opposed to dream states where we do not have such free will?

In addition, do you have other 'proofs'/signs that indicate that our experiences are OOBES, and not just simple dreams and nightmares?

Thanks again.

I have been having OOBEs most of my life.  At first I thought that they were just wield dreams; however, after 44 years of daily experience with OOBEs, I have come to realize that they occur on an immaterial domain, which is where we go when we die.  Those who lead a fruitful contemplative life will transition from the material to the immaterial consciously.  Whereas, those who do not lead a fruitful contemplative life will only enter a dream-like world.  They will have little control over the experience, and find it overall unpleasant.

Hello,
Jeffrey you mentioned that we start experiencing occasional obes as we meditate lying down. My question is how long until obe comes under conscious control? I dont see much improvement for.myself, how long it usually takes it to.master the skill? How long it took for u until u cud experience obe every day or at will?

It is difficult to say how long it takes anyone to become lucid, and begin to experience OOBEs.  Those who led a fruitful contemplative life in their previous lifetimes will come to them very quickly.  Those who did not, and do not learn quickly how to lead a fruitful contemplative life, will take a long time to come to the fruit of the contemplative life.

This is absolutely true. I simply had a single thought of an entity such as the Buddha or Jesus Christ and the entire realm lit up in an instant - to be more accurate, "I" was transported into a different 'frequency' of sorts within just one thought movement. This has happened multiple times.

Yes, this too has happened or me many times.

I have felt that it is very similar to meditation, where we meditate and suddenly our 'samskaras' grab hold of us (karma) and we lose lucidity and control, letting it take over our body, speech and mind. Then suddenly we 'realize' or 'wake up' even for the slightest moment, that Mara the demon has taken over - and that waking up allows a short period of control to which we turn to the next available samskara - if it is positive, we can immediately go to a higher realm.

Yes, I agree

I think this also highlights how important it is for us to build virtue and have good conduct. When we fill our mind with positive samskaras, then it is only inevitable that at death of our bodies, at minimum we go to bright, joyful realms like the deva realms. This might explain why the Buddha said brahmavihara meditation leads to a minimum of deva birth. I believe however that the key is as Jhanananda expressed, 24-7 lucidity, which allows one to go beyond birth and death, time and space, and lives, upon departing from the physical shell.

Yes, I agree

I was curious, as Jhanananda once expressed that the arupa-jhanas are in fact more of immaterial domains, aka ayatanas, or in chinese buddhism, called 'jing-jie' which translates as "worlds", "states" or "realms".

From what I know, people are able to enter the so-called OBEs when severely sick (departing from the body) or when consciously practicing OBE through astral-travel. Is it possible that the four immaterial states can be traversed the  by people who have not attained the faculties of jhanas?

No, it is not possible for people to traverse the immaterial states, if they have not attained the faculties of jhanas, as Buddhists call it.

And that it is only because of the power of jhana factors that allows one's 'spiritual body' to have more 'lucidity' and control over its faculties, such as going to past-and-future, clairvoyance, clairaudience, etc?

In that case I might see why arahants have graduated levels towards Buddhahood. I think this might be what the 'Mahayana' schools talk about as the Bodhisattva Bhumi stages, where the tenth and final stage is the dharmamegha or Cloud of Dharma, which is what Jhanananda describes as the Milky Way.

Correct.

[Jhanek]

No, it is not possible for people to traverse the immaterial states, if they have not attained the faculties of jhanas, as Buddhists call it.

Then all those who just practise OOB because they found it in the Internet and master it pretty fast are Sotapanna from previous lifes, as there is no other explanation. Personally I can confirm that although I was fascinated by OOB stories long time ago as a teenager I had 0 success before jhana experience.

[bodhimind]

I have been having OOBEs most of my life.  At first I thought that they were just wield dreams; however, after 44 years of daily experience with OOBEs, I have come to realize that they occur on an immaterial domain, which is where we go when we die.  Those who lead a fruitful contemplative life will transition from the material to the immaterial consciously.  Whereas, those who do not lead a fruitful contemplative life will only enter a dream-like world.  They will have little control over the experience, and find it overall unpleasant.

I would like to raise a question. Why is it that there is a transition between those who dream and those who leave the body in a manomaya?

For those who dream while still within the body, there are physiological signs such as the brain-wave activity that shows one to be in REM sleep or delta-wave activity. On the other hand, cultivated mystics who can successfully leave the body can have a sudden drop in brain activity, even to the point of seeming to be clinically dead (like Lazarus' "resurrection").

Is this because the body itself influences the ability of the manomaya to traverse the planes freely? If that is the case, then what is the exact role of the body? For example, it is only possible for us to 'practice' meditation while inside a human body, because the physical body seems to be like a buffer where our thoughts do not cause our realities to immediately change, just like in the immaterial planes.

However, the moment we enter the dream-space, thoughts immediately warp the entire space. Perhaps we are caught in between the body and the manomaya? What could be this reason? Could it be body samskara or the absence of strong enough kundalini?

No, it is not possible for people to traverse the immaterial states, if they have not attained the faculties of jhanas, as Buddhists call it.

I would like to clarify... I assume you mean 'traversing' as voluntarily choosing where to go and having full control. If we have 'half-lucidity', where we are lucid for one moment and then non-lucid in the other, is this only doeable with jhana?

[Jhanananda]

No, it is not possible for people to traverse the immaterial states, if they have not attained the faculties of jhanas, as Buddhists call it.

Then all those who just practise OOB because they found it in the Internet and master it pretty fast are Sotapanna from previous lifes, as there is no other explanation. Personally I can confirm that although I was fascinated by OOB stories long time ago as a teenager I had 0 success before jhana experience.

We know from the suttas that the OOBE is one of the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).  However, we have to keep in mind that it is just one of the fruit.  We thus, have to look at all of the fruit of attainment.

If we examine the organizations that have made a career out of promoting the OOBE that some of them also show that they understand some of the other fruit, especially the movement of charismatic energy, and the charismatic sound.  Thus, we have to conclude that those organizations are at least warm.  However, we do not see those organizations producing people who are free of addiction.  So, we can only say that they are warm, but they have not figured it all out.

I would like to raise a question. Why is it that there is a transition between those who dream and those who leave the body in a manomaya?

The difference is lucid awareness.

For those who dream while still within the body, there are physiological signs such as the brain-wave activity that shows one to be in REM sleep or delta-wave activity. On the other hand, cultivated mystics who can successfully leave the body can have a sudden drop in brain activity, even to the point of seeming to be clinically dead (like Lazarus' "resurrection").

Since no one with an EEG machine, who claims to study meditation, has ever studied someone who meditates deeply. Then, we have to conclude that most of that research is meaningless for our discussions here.

Is this because the body itself influences the ability of the manomaya to traverse the planes freely? If that is the case, then what is the exact role of the body? For example, it is only possible for us to 'practice' meditation while inside a human body, because the physical body seems to be like a buffer where our thoughts do not cause our realities to immediately change, just like in the immaterial planes.

However, the moment we enter the dream-space, thoughts immediately warp the entire space. Perhaps we are caught in between the body and the manomaya? What could be this reason? Could it be body samskara or the absence of strong enough kundalini?

No, the body is just a vehicle that we get around on the material domain in.  I have regularly meditated while out of body, so I know that the body is not a requirement for meditation practice.

No, it is not possible for people to traverse the immaterial states, if they have not attained the faculties of jhanas, as Buddhists call it.

I would like to clarify... I assume you mean 'traversing' as voluntarily choosing where to go and having full control. If we have 'half-lucidity', where we are lucid for one moment and then non-lucid in the other, is this only doeable with jhana?

It is only doable for one who has acquired some of what the suttas call jhana factors.

[Jhanek]

No, the body is just a vehicle that we get around on the material domain in.

The very best truth been told.

[Naman]

Im experiencing this new phenomenon in meditation in which my body starts freezing, becoming numb... And i feel body as energy not a lump of heavy mass anymore...
I used to think that stopping of breath and feeling blissful was the  last depth one touches before going out of body (i.e. in 4th jhana) but this new experience is coming even later to the experience of breath cessation.
So where can we put this experience in jhana perspective? Is it 4th jhana itself ( as Jhananada explains body becoming absolutely free of stress)? Or am i nearing the transition of 4th & 5th jhana?