Questions about OOBEs

[Jhanananda]

Jhananda,

thanks for response. It is quite an interesting topic. I have read some teachings by Yogi mystics but never studied them in depth. I guess they tend to interpret experiences of universe more personally and organically than Buddhist counterparts. I wonder if it is possible to accurately correlate Yogi samadhis to Pali jhanas or if there some differences.

One should always keep in mind that what passes for religion in most religions is an elaborate fraud to support a pretentious and hypocritical priesthood, so any differences are most likely evidence of fraud. Otherwise the 8 stages of religious experience are the same world around, but too few ever experience them. My goal is to provide a description of the religious experience that goes beyond religious differences.

[Tad]

Jhananda,

thanks for response. It is quite an interesting topic. I have read some teachings by Yogi mystics but never studied them in depth. I guess they tend to interpret experiences of universe more personally and organically than Buddhist counterparts. I wonder if it is possible to accurately correlate Yogi samadhis to Pali jhanas or if there some differences.

One should always keep in mind that what passes for religion in most religions is an elaborate fraud to support a pretentious and hypocritical priesthood, so any differences are most likely evidence of fraud. Otherwise the 8 stages of religious experience are the same world around, but too few ever experience them. My goal is to provide a description of the religious experience that goes beyond religious differences.

Well, Hindus/Yogis like to teach that Atman is the ultimate goal. But traditional Buddhist swear on their lifes that there is no such thing or reality that can be considered Atman. Consequently, the following deductions come to my mind:

- the difference is in the interpreting the same experience
- Atman or Nirvana are not the same level attainments and one of then is higher
- corruptions in teachings by students of original founders of the spiritual traditions

[Jhanananda]

One should always keep in mind that what passes for religion in most religions is an elaborate fraud to support a pretentious and hypocritical priesthood, so any differences are most likely evidence of fraud. Otherwise the 8 stages of religious experience are the same world around, but too few ever experience them. My goal is to provide a description of the religious experience that goes beyond religious differences.

Well, Hindus/Yogis like to teach that Atman is the ultimate goal. But traditional Buddhist swear on their lifes that there is no such thing or reality that can be considered Atman. Consequently, the following deductions come to my mind:

- the difference is in the interpreting the same experience
- Atman or Nirvana are not the same level attainments and one of then is higher
- corruptions in teachings by students of original founders of the spiritual traditions

I'll go with your third conclusion, because we have yet to find a Buddhist monk who knows what jhana is in the last 1500 years. All religions have the same problem. Any clown can put a costume on and pretend to be something that they are not.

[Tad]

Jhananda,

I guess that is quite likely considering the fact that all religions start competing with others as they become organized. Then the religious leaders kind of have to come up with some doctrinal teachings that their path leads to higher goals than everyone else...

Regarsing monks, I think there are forest monks who practice deep meditation including develiping certain psychich powers. But since city monks are in charge of the overall religion, forest monks tend to stay underground.

[Jhanananda]

Jhananda,

I guess that is quite likely considering the fact that all religions start competing with others as they become organized. Then the religious leaders kind of have to come up with some doctrinal teachings that their path leads to higher goals than everyone else...

When we examine religion and civilization we see the two are closely associated. Both religion and civilization are expressed in art, architecture and literature. Then we have to ask, who has the wealth to build religious institutions, build civil structures, and fund scriptoriums for the reproduction of religious literature? The answer is one and the same. The ruling class has the wealth and power and motivation to build religions, institutions and literature that back them. When we examine the leaders of religion, who do we find in charge? In most cases they are members of the ruling class.

Regarsing monks, I think there are forest monks who practice deep meditation including develiping certain psychich powers. But since city monks are in charge of the overall religion, forest monks tend to stay underground.

Regarding your hypothesis that forest monks get realization. Do we see that they have supported or contributed to a dialog on jhana and the other topics that we discuss here. While there are a few that we have quoted here; nonetheless, in most cases we have had to correct their erroneous assumptions, such as Ajan Brahm claiming the first jhana is a manifestation of a glowing sphere, which he calls a 'kasina.' Whereas, the suttas do not describe this phenomena at all. So, my conclusion is all branches of Buddhism are hopelessly corrupt as is all other religions.

[Tad]

Jhananda,

Yes, there are many bad examples like you mentioned. But there are also good example, it is just hard to find them. I posted an article in Ecstatic Buddhism section of this forum of a monk that I believe is a real mystic.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you, I agree, but in my experience the people who learn to meditate skillfully in any religion tend to be marginalized. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross come to mind.