Discerning Attainment

[Alexander]

Here are some ideas I use for discerning attainment. I try to be very conservative. If I do not know someone well enough, I will not make a judgment. I do not claim my judgments are indisputable, but I have not met someone with a system comparable to my own.

(I) The Four Noble Ones

Streamwinner

These days this is the hardest one for me. I need to be very well acquainted with the person. Critical to me about streamwinners is:
- They have a belief in "something more" than what can be seen or felt. This can be expressed in different ways. The person may have contradictory beliefs, but that does not compromise streamwinning.
- Streamwinners are able to instill mystic knowledge with the importance it deserves.
- Streamwinners can distinguish between mystic knowledge and ordinary knowledge.

That last point is very important. It's what makes streamwinners special. If they were not seeking liberation, they would not be able to distinguish "mystic" knowledge from regular knowledge.

Once-returner

The two major human fetters - sensuality and ill will - have been weakened. This person can never take human affairs seriously in the way an ordinary person can. They have already discovered something very great, though they may not understand what intellectually. While a streamwinner is a "seeker" in the absolute sense, a once-returner is already a "finder" in the relative sense.

Another thing I look for in once-returners is a major personal transformation. In my experience such an event is universal. But, I try to remember that the person may not invest this event with personal significance. He could see it as something unique to him, and not as a natural part of spiritual growth.

Nonreturner

These people are very rare in the world. But I always see them. They are very interesting people, because they have a great amount of gravity beneath the surface.

A nonreturner has totally effaced the human fetters. This means he will not return to the human realm again. That is very profound.

Arahant

The supreme state of man spiritually. I look for the dark night of the soul, profound emotional and intellectual refinement, and the religious experience.

(II) What are some of the things I look for in general?

Streamwinner:
- belief in mystic knowledge
- belief in a "way out of the world"
- respect given to spiritual teachers but an admittance of what one doesn't know

Important fetters:
- Sensuality
- Ill will
- Restlessness

Also:
- Inconsistency, pride, or lack of equilibrium; usually this shows a person who lacks self-knowledge - tied to the fetter of restlessness

Important events:
- A transformative experience that alters the person's vision of himself and the world
- The dark night of the soul

Attainments:
- Self-arising joy
- The ability to be alone and be happy
- A consistent self behind all the roles we play in a day
- The still mind
- A gravity when in the person's presence; not tangible to the ordinary person

(III) Critical things to read

(1) The Buddha's explanation of the 4 stages of liberation: Excellent chart.

(2) Ouspensky's writings on the 4 higher kinds of man: The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution, 54-55; Fragments of an Unknown Teaching, 71-73.

(3) R. M. Bucke's list of people throughout history: Cosmic Consciousness.

(IV) Important threads

Ramana Maharshi an arahant based on 2 crises and evidence of the religious experience: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,540.0.html

List of Socrates, Walt Whitman and others and their attainment based on jhana: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,591.0.html

Vision of the Noble Ones as a spiritual gift: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,727.0.html

Michel's blog: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,767.15.html

[Jhanon]

"A gravity when in the person's presence; not tangible to the ordinary person"

Very good, Alexander. I agree. I mentioned this in a recent post, but not as well-worded as you. I would wish to see this thread turn into a place for GWV members to estimate their attainment and have discussion as to why it seems their attainment is what it is.

For example, I cannot figure out if I'm a stream-winner, once-returner, or less-likely, a non-returner. I know I'm at least a stream-winner, though.

And, although it hasn't been of much importance, because samadhi is so much more satisfying; I do find myself concerned about my progress. I do not want to die without having at least reached Arahantship. I don't want to come back here, or at least not without consciously doing so. I want to get out, and help others get out. It's the only logical thing to do.

[Michel]

Nonreturner

These people are very rare in the world. But I always see them. They are very interesting people, because they have a great amount of gravity beneath the surface.

A nonreturner has totally effaced the human fetters. This means he will not return to the human realm again. That is very profound.

Arahant

The supreme state of man spiritually. I look for the dark night of the soul, profound emotional and intellectual refinement, and the religious experience.

You've done a great job in explaining the 4 types of Noble Ones. This is priceless.

However, my list of the 4 Noble Ones below is different in that the non-returner has totally eradicated only the 1st 5 fetters, rather it is the arahant that has overcome all the 10 fetters. I can't remember where I got my list. We'll have to check the suttas.

Fetters overcome:

1st three: Streamwinner - sotapanna (up to 7 rebirths in the human realm)
1st three + 4 & 5 weakened: Once-returner - sakadagami (1 rebirth in the sensuous sphere)
1st five: Non-returner - anagami  (1 rebirth in the pure abodes)
All ten: Arahant or Holy One - arahant (liberation in nibanna)

[Alexander]

"A gravity when in the person's presence; not tangible to the ordinary person"

Very good, Alexander. I agree. I mentioned this in a recent post, but not as well-worded as you. I would wish to see this thread turn into a place for GWV members to estimate their attainment and have discussion as to why it seems their attainment is what it is.

For example, I cannot figure out if I'm a stream-winner, once-returner, or less-likely, a non-returner. I know I'm at least a stream-winner, though.

And, although it hasn't been of much importance, because samadhi is so much more satisfying; I do find myself concerned about my progress. I do not want to die without having at least reached Arahantship. I don't want to come back here, or at least not without consciously doing so. I want to get out, and help others get out. It's the only logical thing to do.

Honestly I suspect you are on the path to arahantship. Meaning you are between nonreturner and arahant. You should spend some time reflecting on your life narrative, and figure out if this would make sense.

[Jhanon]

I remember you saying that recently. I feel like i must have exaggerated or mis-represented myself at some point, because the mental picture I have of an arahant is saturated in charisms all day. I'm not. I mean, I can hear the audio charism whenever I want, I can feel the tactile charism whenever I want, and I can experience the visual and third eye charism whenever I want. But they aren't profound. Some ringing, tingling in hands and feet, seeing auras, this purple stuff, and brilliant light (if I take the time and effort to do so), and when i close my eyes I do begin to see shapes and silhouettes. While meditating, I VERY often see a small pin of white light, and I think I know what it is, but I can never seem to get my fearful ass into it. I do get energy blasts fairly regularly during daily life, but they are the softer ones. What I'm saying is that my charism activity isn't spectacular.

That's charisms, though, and is probably my weakest point of practice. But, what is the most reliable way to measure attainment level? I find it hard to believe that both you and Jhananda think I am a Non-Returner. I feel like I must be deluded, and have mis-represented myself, but at the same time it doesn't seem like I am deluded.

Oh! The fruits. Uhhhh, well, let's see. Let me grab a list of the fruits.

[Jhanon]

What I'm getting at, Alexander, is, will you bluntly tell me what has lead you to think this? I don't doubt you or Jhananda. And I know from recent experience that it is possible to observe others and their awareness remotely while I'm in jhana--so that is a possible point from which you may be making your suggestion. I just want to know what's behind your thought on it, and then apply my own critical thinking.

However, I will do as you suggested. When you say "life narrative", do you mean review my life, or review my state of mind as I progressed through life?

[Alexander]

Yes, that is funny that was Jeffrey's thought as well. We both said you were a nonreturner.

One thing is you could compare yourself to my friend Father Roger. He is getting old now. He is a nonreturner. What is interesting is Father Roger exhibits no charisms. He has told me he has never in his whole life experienced anything fantastic. The most fantastic thing, he said, was the transformation he said accompanied conversion.

Like myself, he did not know about the charisms until I told him about them. Still, he has no sound charism, and he has never felt an inner heat. Although I would say with 100% certainty that he has opened the spiritual heart.

I think if my friend dedicated himself seriously to silencing the mind, within a month he would start exhibiting charisms. So I think that is ironic. He is at that high level of attainment, but with no meditation there are no fruits.

Of course, you are the opposite! You have the fruits which imply you are at a high level. But, you don't recognize the level you're on.

However, I will do as you suggested. When you say "life narrative", do you mean review my life, or review my state of mind as I progressed through life?

Yes, I think this is a good idea. You should do both. Of course, nothing forces you to. But, if you're so close to arahantship, I don't see why you shouldn't recognize you are.

[Jhanon]

Well, I asked my partner about if she thought I had any of the fetters. We went through them one by one. I can count on her honesty and observation. Her observation coincides with yours.

I just thought it would be more difficult. But now I am beginning to see that there are two sides to the practice. There is fetters, and then there is samadhi. Do I correctly recall the Buddha saying that there are two ways in which one may arrive at enlightenment? Or was that a commentary?

[Alexander]

I was reflecting this morning on what I said:

I think if my friend dedicated himself seriously to silencing the mind, within a month he would start exhibiting charisms. So I think that is ironic. He is at that high level of attainment, but with no meditation there are no fruits.

So it seems we can see one part of the spiritual life as growth through the different states of being. The other part is growth in meditation or samadhi. At the same time, without the state of being, there will be no results when you meditate. The two are connected, not distinct. So, going through the states of being is essential. But, once you become a nonreturner, meditation becomes hugely significant.

But now I am beginning to see that there are two sides to the practice. There is fetters, and then there is samadhi. Do I correctly recall the Buddha saying that there are two ways in which one may arrive at enlightenment? Or was that a commentary?

Yes I think the two are connected. Although I believe you are referring here to samatha and vipassana meditation. Jhanananda made a clip on them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA5WkwdpxuA

[Jhanon]

Right, no, I agree.

What I'm saying is that they are both necessary, but an individual can either contemplate themselves into absorption that immediately leads to revelatory insight (which I have done more than once), or they can dive deep enough into samadhi enough times that the insights arise on their own (which I've only done once or twice)

[Michel]

Based on the Bhodhi/Nanamoli's chart that you've referred to, Alexander, this is what I understand which of the ten fetters the four noble ones have overcome:

1st three: Streamwinner - sotapanna (up to 7 rebirths in the human realm or in a heaven)
1st three + 4th, 5th & 10th weakened: Once returner - sakadagami (1 rebirth as a human)
1st five: Non-returner - anagami  (1 rebirth in a pure abode)
All ten: Holy One - arahant (no rebirths)

Bhodhi/Nanamoli's notes for the chart are:

Note 3. See, for instance, the "Snake-Simile Discourse" (MN 22), where the Buddha states:

'... [F]or those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.... [T]hose monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.... [T]hose monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.... [T]hose monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.' (Nyanaponika, 2006)

Note 4. The "fruit" (Pali: phala) is the culmination of the "path" (magga). Thus, for example, the "stream-enterer" is the fruit for one on the "stream-entry" path; more specifically, the stream-enterer has abandoned the first three fetters, while one on the path of stream-entry strives to abandon these fetters.

Note 5. Both the stream-enterer and the once-returner abandon the first three fetters. What distinguishes these stages is that the once-returner additionally attenuates lust, hate and delusion, and will necessarily be reborn only once more.


The sutta refers to greed, hatred and delusion which are the same as the fetters of sensual desire, ill-will and ignorance, if I'm correct.

Notice there's a problem in the sutta. It mentions only the first five fetters for the non-returner, but it does not mention the fetter of delusion/ignorance in the case of the once-returner. I would think that either they have been weakened or overcome. What do you think?

[Jhanon]

This will be a place where I intend to intellectually hammer down on what level of attainment I might be at. I hope it becomes useful for others. I am using definitions from the internet because I feel like no one has ever given them! It is strange that I see these words over and over, and yet hardly a relative definition to go along with them.

5 Lower Fetters

1) Narcissism - extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.

Anyone who knows me says I have none, which is a marked contrast to when I was in my early 20's. Now that I'm externally processing it like this, I'm remembering that I am almost certain I didn't have any narcissism when I was young. I can't remember the last time I even took anything "personal", or cared about how I look (beyond the knowledge that I should make an effort to look "good" for my partner and her parents because those things matter to them.)  God, that is such a wonderful feeling of freedom.

2) Skeptical doubt - Denying or questioning the tenets of a religion. regarding the doctrines or opinions of philosophical Skeptics.

I don't think I have any of this. I do remember a moment yesterday when I was reflecting on the fetters, and I thought "What if the deathless isn't actually true? Sure, Enlightenment is real, and you can attain arahantship and become conscious at all times; but what if when the physical body dies none of it ends up mattering?" But, there isn't a single thing, thought or anything which suggests the deathless isn't true, other than the fact that I haven't attained the deathless and finished this human life.

3) Clinging to rules, rights and rituals - This is pretty straight-forward. I think a good example is someone saying "You can't do that; it's illegal."

This is similar to my response to narcissim. I have absolutely no clinging to these things. In fact, when I was young (as early as 7 years old) I distinctly remember already being to this point, which got me in trouble often and left me confused and frustrated. Oh wow. i can't believe it. That's true. I never thought of it before. Anyway, regarding "rituals", I do have to unplug everything in my room and hide the few "valuables" I have before I leave my house. I think that's anxiety from sensing energies, though.

4) Desire for sensuality - Sensual means physically pleasing. It often is used in a sexual context, but is not exclusively sexual in meaning.

This is difficult to answer. My first thought is "No. None." Even when I was young, I never thought about sex or was interested in having a girlfriend. It was something "learned", just like the clinging to rites and rituals. My greatest concern in regards to this is that I use psychoactive medications to ease the difficulties and numb the pain of human life (aches, pains, sensing negative energies, being around too many people, no interest in worldly things.)

5) Ill-will or aversion - Animosity or bitterness. A strong dislike or disinclination.

No, I don't have any of this. I do have preferences, like silence, stillness, and solitude. And, I also have a preference against ordinary jobs because I've failed to keep SO many of them. Also, I avoid running out of medication at almost all costs. Also, I experience fear when the light of annihilation comes. The identity always jumps in and ruins it with evasive action.

5 Higher Fetters

1) Craving for Material Existence - Craving to be a human or animal, for example. (?)

I had this when I was younger. I wanted to be a cat. In terms of what I am consciously aware of, I do not have any craving for material existence. I crave "Home."

2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)

This is tough to answer, because I've only experienced the lower immaterial plane a few times. It seems pretty great up there, but it's not "Home."

3) Conceit - Excessive pride in oneself. A fanciful expression in writing or speech; an elaborate metaphor.

As of lately, I don't think I have this either. Which is making me think I'm seriously delusional to have made it this far down the fetters without admitting wholeheartedly to being guilty of one of them. I do put a good deal of effort into writing and other communication. But whenever it's something good, I can see it wasn't me, but the Dhamma. Often I write something intending it to say one thing, and then it ends up being even better than I intended. As if it "snuck" in or something. And I know I didn't do that on purpose. Sometimes I'll write a Facebook post to help stimulate contemplation in others, and I don't even know why I'm writing what I'm writing--it's just inspired. It only makes complete sense upon contemplating it.

4) Restlessness - Characterized by or showing inability to remain at rest: a restless mood. Unquiet or uneasy, as a person, the mind, or the heart.

Yes, I think i sometimes get this. One example is that I keep having to rearrange my legs, as I am sitting cross legged on the floor to type this, and the pain tells me to move the legs. I also wonder if without my medications (after withdrawal), if I would be more restless. Yes, I do think I have this, but I think it is mediated a lot by vaping (an electronic cigarette I use) and music.

5) Ignorance - Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts.

I can't answer this one. If I was ignorant, I don't think I would know it. Wait, yes, I think I am a little bit ignorant. Sometimes my partner will suggest something, or someone else will, and it doesn't even register because I'm absorbed in some other contemplation or thought.

Hopefully somewhere in there can be identified the fetters I still have. I intend to come back and add all the rest of the marks of levels of enlightenment. Then future seekers or mystics can hopefully find it useful for them.

[Alexander]

This is excellent. You explain each one very well. I also agree about restlessness and ignorance. If you still have fetters, those are them. But, that means you are closer to an arahant than you are a nonreturner.

2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)

This is tough to answer, because I've only experienced the lower immaterial plane a few times. It seems pretty great up there, but it's not "Home."

This always makes me think of the story of Nanda, the Buddha's stepbrother: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanda_%28Buddhist%29

Notice there's a problem in the sutta. It mentions only the first five fetters for the non-returner, but it does not mention the fetter of delusion/ignorance in the case of the once-returner. I would think that either they have been weakened or overcome. What do you think?

Both the once-returner and nonreturner still suffer from ignorance.

[Jhanon]

I think one of the problems with this, is that really difficult situations will make our fetters more obvious. And, I haven't had any really difficult situations lately. Well, to me, I haven't. But my mother tells me she can't believe how well I'm handling my current living situation.

[Jhanon]

This is excellent. You explain each one very well. I also agree about restlessness and ignorance. If you still have fetters, those are them. But, that means you are closer to an arahant than you are a nonreturner.

2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)

This is tough to answer, because I've only experienced the lower immaterial plane a few times. It seems pretty great up there, but it's not "Home."

This always makes me think of the story of Nanda, the Buddha's stepbrother: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanda_%28Buddhist%29

Notice there's a problem in the sutta. It mentions only the first five fetters for the non-returner, but it does not mention the fetter of delusion/ignorance in the case of the once-returner. I would think that either they have been weakened or overcome. What do you think?

Both the once-returner and nonreturner still suffer from ignorance.

I'm glad it turned out satisfactory. Pardon my language, but I'm fucking shocked. I expected to have all these crazy meditation experiences and stuff before I would get close to being fully enlightened. And, yeah, I've had some crazy meditation experiences. But, I thought it would be like straight-up craziness.

You know, I leave my room and glance at a deva just floating there, and then I walk into the living room and see everyone's aura's and know their thoughts vividly. But it seems the removal of the fetters merely opens up access to the fruits for development. You can can have the fruits, and have removed much of the fetters, but the fruits can still be barely developed. Does this sound accurate?