Discerning Attainment

[Michel]

This will be a place where I intend to intellectually hammer down on what level of attainment I might be at. I hope it becomes useful for others. I am using definitions from the internet because I feel like no one has ever given them! It is strange that I see these words over and over, and yet hardly a relative definition to go along with them.

You may  have missed the ongoing discussion with Jhananda on the ten fetters. It is not finished but it is still very good. I plan to finish it with all of you when Jhananda returns: http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,682.0.html

[Jhanon]

Thanks, Michel. I saw it, but forgot about it. This thread I want for people to discuss their level of attainment. The other thread seemed more intellectual theory, whereas the aim of this one is to make it relate-able to everyday life so people can determine their level. I dunno; I just found the other thread really intellectual and difficult to relate ordinary life to.  But, I'll review it again. Perhaps it will easier for me to relate to it this time around.

My hope is to incorporate all the major indications of enlightenment AS they manifest in an ordinary person on this thread, and so help people see how they might progress and identify others progression. This is originally Alexander's thread, but I think this was his intention as well.

Am I making any sense? In other words; I am trying to "Eckhart Tolle" it.

[Michel]

I was reflecting this morning on what I said:

I think if my friend dedicated himself seriously to silencing the mind, within a month he would start exhibiting charisms. So I think that is ironic. He is at that high level of attainment, but with no meditation there are no fruits.

So it seems we can see one part of the spiritual life as growth through the different states of being. The other part is growth in meditation or samadhi. At the same time, without the state of being, there will be no results when you meditate. The two are connected, not distinct. So, going through the states of being is essential. But, once you become a nonreturner, meditation becomes hugely significant.

This is interesting, Alexander. What do you mean by "the different states of being?" Could you please explain this in more detail for us ? Where did you get this idea that without "the state of being there will be no results when you meditate?" Whose teaching is this? 

[Alexander]

This is interesting, Alexander. What do you mean by "the different states of being?" Could you please explain this in more detail for us ?

By state of being I mean Noble ones. Packed into this is the idea that each Noble one is like a different animal. What is the difference, for example, between a man and a horse? The man is the higher animal. So, you could say that the nonreturner is like an angel/deva in human form.

Where did you get this idea that without "the state of being there will be no results when you meditate?" Whose teaching is this?

I think it was my idea that without Noble attainment, there are no jhanas. Of course the person does not need to recognize this. The fact exists independently. It is not necessary the person be able to say "oh, I am a once-returner, nonreturner, etc."

[Jhanon]

This is interesting, Alexander. What do you mean by "the different states of being?" Could you please explain this in more detail for us ?

By state of being I mean Noble ones. Packed into this is the idea that each Noble one is like a different animal. What is the difference, for example, between a man and a horse? The man is the higher animal. So, you could say that the nonreturner is like an angel/deva in human form.

Where did you get this idea that without "the state of being there will be no results when you meditate?" Whose teaching is this?

I think it was my idea that without Noble attainment, there are no jhanas. Of course the person does not need to recognize this. The fact exists independently. It is not necessary the person be able to say "oh, I am a once-returner, nonreturner, etc."

I agree with Alexander, Michel.

Additionally, if you read Eckhart's book, you'll see that he at least entered the stream or oncereturner merely by observing and contemplating his inner dialog. I had the same experience as Eckhart when I read his book. From that day forward, everything changed (yet again.)

What I've found, is that many of the fetters are no longer observable in me. And yet I can go an entire week without experiencing charisms if I am using the mind constantly. Well, not an entire week. For example; when I was on 24/7 baby duty, it was very difficult for charisms make themselves evident due to the extreme stress.

What, at least, I'M saying, is that one can be a non-returner, and yet not experience any spectacular charisms in meditation or daily absorption. However, the state of being, like a still mind, or equanimity, (and it's resulting abandoning or attenuation of the related fetters) will be there.

As this relates to you, Michel, I would encourage you to go through each fetter as I have, and explain them as you experience life. I first stated my intuition about the fetter, then observations either I or friends have had, and lastly; any doubts I might have about my having overcome that fetter. You may be further than you think.

I think this is why Jhananda is always encouraging you to just cultivate a still mind, because he knows you can ascend the ladder, whether there are many different signs of absorption or not.

This was meant to be encouraging, Michel. And I apologize if it wasn't perceived that way. Although I'm not anywhere near as wise as most of you, I do have a sneaking suspicion that you and I, will reach arahantship, be able to shed the medicinal interference, and suddenly become engulfed in charismatic activity. Which would be quite the pleasure.

[Jhanon]

By the way, Michel. I really appreciate how thorough you are. When someone states something, you ask for clear elucidation of source and meaning, and keep at it until something satisfactory is given. I feel you fill an absolutely vital role in the GWV.

[Jhanon]

Eleven Fruits

Note: I am unsure if this is in reference to daily life, absorption, or daily absorption. My suspicion is that it is in relation to being absorbed in daily life. In other words, we may not experience full-blown 3rd jhana charisms in daily life, but we do attain the state of mind of 3rd jhana and its fruits.

1) Equanimity - mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, especially in a difficult situation

In my experience, yes, I have a great deal of equanimity. Sometimes, the really challenging moments occur (they are rare--maybe every 3 months), but there is this gentleness which surfaces JUST before reactive behavior and soothes me. However, I did lose my cool a little bit at the last job I had, almost a year ago. Later, when they let me go, out of nowhere (no warning), I stood up, shook the manager's hand, and thanked them for their time. And I walked out calmly

2) Fearlessness - lacking fear

Nope. I still have fear.

3) Beyond Pain and Discomfort

No. I still react to pain like "Ow, shit!"

4) Meditative Absorption

Yes.

5) Manomaya lit. "mind-made body" (OOB) - "wields manifold supranormal powers"

I've had several hyper real dreams and visions where I levitate, fly, generate energy orbs in my hands that can be projected, and my favorite; telekinesis. A few days ago, I had a hyper real "dream" (I meditated to sleep that night, and woke up in absorption) where I was visiting some kind of moon or planet that was orbiting very close to another planet. The planet we were on had beautiful, otherworldly features. My companion said it was richer in resources. I turned around and had a stunning up-close view of a massive planet. I asked "What is that?" and he said "That's Earth. A primitive planet." I don't know what to make of this. I think it was just a hyper real dream?

6) Clairaudience "divine ear-element"

Yes. I have had experiences in both ordinary life, and samadhi when I've heard voices as clearly as any other. Also, ringing, water rushing, birds twittering.

7) Mental Telepathy - knows the awareness of other beings

Yes, although it's not as impressive as I expected. Perhaps due to it not being developed enough. Most humans are predictable, and so it is unnecessary in ordinary life. Or, I will experience a thought pop up during stillness of mind, and has no apparent cause--thus I know it is the thought of the person I am interacting with. Also, I've had absorption experiences where I've seen life from the awareness of others. This happens in various ways. Sometimes it is direct.

8 ) Recollection of Manifold Past Lives - lit. “rethinking” or "dependent origination"

I have had hyper-vivid "dreams" where I was in absorption as I fell asleep, and I woke up still in absorption. In these dreams, I have experienced deaths. I do not consider this to be "manifold" like how I've heard Jhananda explain his.

9) Clairvoyance - "Divine eye" or "sees beings passing away & re-appearing." The faculty of perceiving things or events in the future or beyond normal sensory contact.

I have not seen beings passing away and re-appearing. At least not to my memory. However, I have remote viewed friends a couple times, and confirmed it. I also had some visions of the 2014 retreat, and they were not good. After Jhananda came back from his 3-day camping spot scouting/mini-retreat, he cancelled the retreat.

10) Ending of Mental Agitation

I cannot say. It's too vague. I'm inclined to say this occurs at arahantship.

11) Direct Knowledge/Transcendent Insight(?) - lit “knowledge" (nana) and "vision" (dassana)

I detailed the most profound of these experiences in my Meditation and Mystical Records thread. However, I have had subsequent ones that are less profound, yet still direct/transcendent.

This is my initial interpretation of the Fruits as extracted from:

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/fruit.htm

[Jhanon]

I want to add that I think this exercise is incredibly important and valuable. Actually seeing it put down is encouraging to the practitioner.

[Michel]

It is a real treat for me to read all this stuff about your attainments as you come closer to full awakening, Jhanon. I believe everything you say. I feel privileged to be witnessing all this. I have overcome the fetter of doubt to a large measure because of this. I am so very happy for you. 

[Jhanon]

Michel, I thank you for your confidence in my honesty and discernment. And, I am glad you're getting some good out of this. My feeling, at the moment, regarding our work on the path, is that everything should be transparent or out in the open--like a good company or group.

There is a wicked windstorm happening here, so I may lose internet at some point soon.

[Michel]

... I also had some visions of the 2014 retreat, and they were not good. After Jhananda came back from his 3-day camping spot scouting/mini-retreat, he cancelled the retreat.

Interesting. If you don't mind saying, what exactly were the details of this vision? I'll understand if you prefer not to speak about it.

[Jhanon]

I will message this.

[Michel]

This will be a place where I intend to intellectually hammer down on what level of attainment I might be at. I hope it becomes useful for others. I am using definitions from the internet because I feel like no one has ever given them! It is strange that I see these words over and over, and yet hardly a relative definition to go along with them.

I think we each have a different understanding of the 10 fetters and which of the fetters the 4 noble disciples have overcome. We should all agree what exactly the 10 fetters are. Therefore we should wait until we have finished our discussions on them upon Jhananda return.

[Jhanon]

Therefore we should wait until we have finished our discussions on them upon Jhananda return.

I'm unsure what you mean, Michel. Are you saying to not discuss this further??

[Michel]

Therefore we should wait until we have finished our discussions on them upon Jhananda return.

I'm unsure what you mean, Michel. Are you saying to not discuss this further??

Well do as you please, but I think everyone will be confused since we all have different metrics.