Discerning Attainment

[Jhanon]

That we all have different metrics is one of the problems I'm trying to address here. Jhananda already does so much for us all, I feel like it's time WE start building for the future seekers so as to ensure an established foundation. Right now we're just throwing information and data down here, over there, in this hidden journal, or that dusty book.

We look back on history, and see how things quickly deteriorated after the Buddha transitioned. And, also, after my interactions with Cal and his awakening, I am realizing that what Jhananda does, what he has done, what he continues to do, is a great labor and responsibility. Joyous as it is to witness--but just the same it is a great responsibility.

So, soon I will provide a summary of  indications of attainments and stages of enlightenment as retrieved from childhood memories recently accessed during 4th jhana. From here, I intend to encourage others to relate, and ultimately use this data to establish a unified knowledge of the path of enlightenment as it manifests in this day and age.

I would feel foolish to not endeavor to remove as much esoteric and historic pitfalls as possible. I see mechanics everywhere in "chakras", jhana, stage of enlightenment. It's all interconnected, and humans need that in this post-industrial age. Especially considering my recent experience with Cal's awakening, which showed me I owe responsibility to those who arrive to awakening through interaction with me.

I'll explain further in the coming days. What we're basically talking about is gathering data. Lots of data--especially in detailed regards to attainment.

This post is not airtight. I use my language poorly, as I am very, very tired. The main message is that we need to acquire as much data of the manifestation of a modern enlightened being.

I have a dream that we will one day unite the vast wealth of knowledge and wisdom Jhananda has amassed, and do so in a way that makes it nearly "Enlightenment for Dummies." There is a common saying something like "if you can't teach it to a child, then you don't know what you're talking about."  That's how I intend to pay homage to Jhananda for his decades of sacrifice that we may be here having this discussion right now.

[Michel]

By the way, Michel. I really appreciate how thorough you are. When someone states something, you ask for clear elucidation of source and meaning, and keep at it until something satisfactory is given. I feel you fill an absolutely vital role in the GWV.

Oh, I somehow missed this post. Thank-you for your words of appreciation, Jhanon.

I'm on a solo retreat, and I'm just sitting back here reading about all you guys describing your fantastic experiences. It's a great learning experience. Hope one day you finish writing your booklet.

[Jhanon]

Thank you, Michel. Your words or energy in this post is what kick started the ecstatic meditation post I made for the book and booklet.

[Jhanon]

At a certain point, there is no longer need to intellectually discern attainment. Nature/Tao/God/Dhamma/WHATEVER begins to flow. It (Dhamma) will show It's(Dhamma's) awareness where It is. Just as Dhamma said here in Heart Writing "I" wrote.

The identity is the fetters. The fetters are the identity.

Sotapanna/Stream-Entrant, there is joy, because the identity is experiencing the first rays of the Dhamma. One is still identity more than Dhamma.

Once-Returner/Sakadagami, there is stillness because the identity is fading, yet is balanced with the Dhamma. One is a bit more identity, than Dhamma.

Non-returner/Anagami, there is equanimity, because the identity is almost gone. When the identity arises, the Dhamma is immediately aware of it. It gently overcomes the identity and shows it the error, training it like a dog.

I am not an Anagami. I am not enlightened. There is only Dhamma training a dog^

How would one then know they are enlightened? Why would the Dhamma want to look at the dog? One doesn't look at a dog when it is walked. One simply walks.

However, once in a while the dog must be disciplined. This is when one recognizes the Dhamma within.

One will know when Dhamma shows. There is no "I am Enlightened." There is only Dhamma.

For sake of simplicity in most conversation, we use terms like "I" and "me" still. But that is not entirely accurate, is it Alexander? Jhananda? The "I" is not Jhanon the identity. It is Dhamma.

For anyone the above does not make sense to; "I" no longer have any doubt. "I" am Anagami. But more accurately, there is no "I". There is only Tao/Dhamma/Nature. And how can Dhamma doubt Dhamma?

It flows. "We" don't do anything, because there IS no "we". Using that information, the above will make more sense.

[Jhanon]

Lately "I" am finding I know many things before they happen. For example, "I" may do something, but what is supposed to happen, doesn't happen. Yet, the Dhamma will know. And so "I" will just stand there. Suddenly what was supposed to happen, happens.

But the direct Knowing becomes so rapid, that one cannot keep up with it. So One simply becomes Dhamma. For example, when "I" teach, "I" seem to know exactly what to say. But during a conversation, there is no time to recognize the Knowings. It is much more efficient and effective to simply let Dhamma flow. As the Dhamma flows, the Dhamma recognizes Dhamma. The identity retreats. The Light of Dhamma is too bright for the identity. It cowers in the final hiding places. But Dhamma will find it, and gently discipline it everytime It does.

The Tao is effortless. Leaving one to enjoy the charisms. There is no need to act. There is no action. There is only the Tao. The awareness rests in the delight of Tao as the Tao flows. And as one rests deeper in the delight of Tao, the Tao flows ever greater. As the Tao flows ever greater, one moves ever deeper into the delight of Tao.

Why should there be suffering? Identity suffers. The Tao does not. When suffering arises, one is reminded to retreat into the Tao.

There is no self. The dog, the identity has tricked Nature's Awareness ("your" awareness) for so long, that even as the dog begins to fall away, Nature's Awareness still believes it is self for some time. That it has will.

There is no self. No will. If there is will, it is identity. It is the dog. Nature flows like the water. The water has no self. It needs no will. It simply flows. The fear that this is undesirable is the dog again. "You" are aware, but "you" are not self. "You" are Nature, the Tao, Dhamma.

There is nothing more peaceful, more easing, more blissful, than relinquishing. Than surrender. This is why humans lay about. They are exhausted by illusion. By chasing the dog in pursuit of a self.

What room is there for the fetters, for the identity, for the dog, if one has relinquished?

This may sound undesirable, but it is not. To witness Nature flowing through "your" awareness is beyond fulfilling.

[Jhanon]

I have found a wikipedia entry to be accurate. It is said there are 4 "kinds of "being"", and 8 stages. This explains Alexander's comment "You are closer to Arahant than Anagami." By this is meant one is stage 7.

(1) the path to stream-entry; (2) the fruition of stream-entry;
(3) the path to once-returning; (4) the fruition of once-returning;
(5) the path to non-returning; (6) the fruition of non-returning;
(7) the path to arahantship; ( 8 ) the fruition of arahantship.

The Knowing suggests the path to Arahantship to be the longest path of all (oither than the path to stream entry)

[Alexander]

I stickied this thread because I think it's really valuable. Most Buddhist schools/teachers never discuss attainment, the four stages, or the ways to recognize them. Of course, anyone who claims nonreturning or arahantship is considered insane! But, if people have those attainments, they should be able to know, and state, what they are.

[Jhanananda]

I stickied this thread because I think it's really valuable.

Glad you like it.

Most Buddhist schools/teachers never discuss attainment, the four stages, or the ways to recognize them. Of course, anyone who claims nonreturning or arahantship is considered insane!

Yes, I too found no school of Buddhism seems to understand the superior fruit of the contemplative life.  Dismissing those with genuine attainment as insane is just one of the ways religions marginalize their mystics.

But, if people have those attainments, they should be able to know, and state, what they are.

I agree, this is why I built the GWV website and this forum.

[jay.validus]

Hello, what an interesting discussion, and what better way to learn better these four stages and what they mean is to look at myself and hear the constructive criticism of others.   This post looks long but it is short if I take out all the headers and their explanations.  I am using Jhanon's previous posts as a guideline.
 
5 Lower Fetters

1) Narcissism - extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.

No, I don't care.  I see value in being strong and caring over one's bodily appearance.  Another could tell me that is ego.  Frankly, I don't care what they think.

2) Skeptical doubt - Denying or questioning the tenets of a religion. regarding the doctrines or opinions of philosophical Skeptics.

Doubt over God/Dhamma/Divine, No. Never.  Doubt of someone's truthfulness, sure.  Doubt over someone's supposed good-actions, you got it, but only if they give a sign.  Righteousness will show itself as pure, and that I don't doubt.

3) Clinging to rules, rights and rituals - This is pretty straight-forward. I think a good example is someone saying "You can't do that; it's illegal."

No.  I see value in honouring what our ancestors teach us only because they are passing on wisdom, never because I feel attached to it.  In the end, I will only do me, whatever that is.

4) Desire for sensuality - Sensual means physically pleasing. It often is used in a sexual context, but is not exclusively sexual in meaning.

Sure, in a sense.  If my body craves a certain food, possibly because of nutrient deficiency, then I will eat that food.  I am not attached to that craving, but I sure will trust it over the words of another speaking of 'clinging'.  Sex, I'll enjoy it when it comes, otherwise I am pretty level.

5) Ill-will or aversion - Animosity or bitterness. A strong dislike or disinclination.

Tons, but never to another person.  All my anger is self-directed if I am not being true to myself.  Someone could do me wrong, and the anger is never directed at them, only self-anger that I act in a righteous way while still standing up for myself.

5 Higher Fetters

1) Craving for Material Existence - Craving to be a human or animal, for example. (?)

I guess so.  I am already here, so I surrender to the moment.  I enjoy pushing myself physically, like learning back-flips.  But that is more about transcending fear than craving for its sake.

2) Craving for Immaterial Existence - Craving to be an angel/deva (?)

Yes, I enjoy dreaming and explore these realms.  Dreaming is equally pleasant and unpleasant, I cannot say I am attached in more that I enjoy challenges.  I could be attached to challenges... but that feels inherent, and letting go feels like suppressing natural traits of who I am.

3) Conceit - Excessive pride in oneself. A fanciful expression in writing or speech; an elaborate metaphor.

No, I don't feel any excessive pride in my dealings, although I allow myself to feel pride in a job well done, for the sake of doing a good job and giving 100%.  That's about the only area I have pride.

4) Restlessness - Characterized by or showing inability to remain at rest: a restless mood. Unquiet or uneasy, as a person, the mind, or the heart.

Yeah, my mind goes non-stop.  Fucking fear...

5) Ignorance - Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts.

Yes.  I have had experiences where I realized my past ignorance, then my behaviour changes.  I am certain enlightenment means the ending of of ignorance.  When this occurs everything else will fall into place.

Eleven Fruits

Note: I am unsure if this is in reference to daily life, absorption, or daily absorption. My suspicion is that it is in relation to being absorbed in daily life. In other words, we may not experience full-blown 3rd jhana charisms in daily life, but we do attain the state of mind of 3rd jhana and its fruits.

1) Equanimity - mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, especially in a difficult situation

Yes and no.  Yes, in that I have a very high tolerance of physical sensations, both pleasant and unpleasant.  Yes, in many of my dealings with people and my general demeanour.  No, in the sense of when I am being taken advantage of I become too scared to act, because I don't want to hurt anyone, but at the same time I don't want to be a door mat. 

2) Fearlessness - lacking fear

I trust fear, but I bring myself to many activities I am scared too do ie. courage > fear.  My answer is no, I have fear.

3) Beyond Pain and Discomfort

Yes, but I still wouldn't enjoy being tortured. 

4) Meditative Absorption

Yes.

5) Manomaya lit. "mind-made body" (OOB) - "wields manifold supranormal powers"

Randomly, yes.  I am working on deepening this presently, if anyone has seen my musings on my "Jay's Online Dream Log".

6) Clairaudience "divine ear-element"

Yes.  Hums, and voices when sleeping.  While I am wide awake, no, aside from my hearing getting stronger with absorption.

7) Mental Telepathy - knows the awareness of other beings

Yes.  I don't see it as psychic than more being aware of things most people ignore.  It passes through you but you have no judgement over it, like someone's subconscious fears.  Words and phrases have sometimes passed through, but I am not looking.  If I try then ego gets in the way and it doesn't work, so I just allow the divine to work.

8 ) Recollection of Manifold Past Lives - lit. “rethinking” or "dependent origination"

Yes.  Christian monk, buddhist monk, drug addict, antelope, formless being angering other gods. Other random memories or feelings of a time once passed.

9) Clairvoyance - "Divine eye" or "sees beings passing away & re-appearing." The faculty of perceiving things or events in the future or beyond normal sensory contact.

I want to say yes, but I cannot see in the future.  Does dreams count?  I have said before non-physical vision is stronger than physical vision.

10) Ending of Mental Agitation

Sure, off and on.  It depends on my mood and the situation.

11) Direct Knowledge/Transcendent Insight(?) - lit “knowledge" (nana) and "vision" (dassana)

Sure, tons, but it has become so much I just allow it to come when the divine wants to bring it up.  Otherwise, it is just me rolling with craving over transcendent insights.

Verdict?

Stream-winner.  Once-returner or non-returner?  I could see it if I judge it on my daily life sometimes.  I know if I meet someone, I will know if they are 'ordinary' or 'noble' and to what degrees.  I don't give much credence to knowing it, except that I may trust someone's wisdom and experience the more noble they are.

[Cal]

This will be a place where I intend to intellectually hammer down on what level of attainment I might be at. I hope it becomes useful for others. I am using definitions from the internet because I feel like no one has ever given them! It is strange that I see these words over and over, and yet hardly a relative definition to go along with them.

I think we each have a different understanding of the 10 fetters and which of the fetters the 4 noble disciples have overcome. We should all agree what exactly the 10 fetters are. Therefore we should wait until we have finished our discussions on them upon Jhananda return.

I agree with you Michel. I think that knowing exactly what needs to be observed, contemplated, and then taken to meditation is very important if one wishes to remove themselves of it.

[Jhanananda]

Jay, this was a good exercise in self-awareness, which could also be called a personal inventory using the fetters as a check list.  Good work.

On your question regarding Clairvoyance - "Divine eye": I believe that this is a reference to remote viewing, which Jhanon explored in the last year in miscellaneous threads.

[Michel]

One day we'll get around to finishing the thread on the 10 fetters. But I'm not in the mood these days. I just want to practice meditation and mindfulness. I want to stay clear of the Dhamma.

[Cal]

One day we'll get around to finishing the thread on the 10 fetters. But I'm not in the mood these days. I just want to practice meditation and mindfulness. I want to stay clear of the Dhamma.

I understand. Michel, you've got a unique gift in your writing. I know on many occasions I've had to consider another perspective, to dig a little deeper and ultimately come to a better understanding of any topic youve been involved in. I envy you, to be honest. Your knowledge of the Dhamma is impressive, mine is next to nothing. I'd venture as far as to say I learn much more of the written text from your discussions than anywhere else.

But, focusing on meditation and mindfulness is definitely the right choice. One of these days, during a meditation, youre going to feel that tactile sensation in your hands or feet spread elsewhere. Youre going to direct all of your attention to it, and be thoughtless, and rest there, and it will go further.

[Michel]

I understand. Michel, you've got a unique gift in your writing. I know on many occasions I've had to consider another perspective, to dig a little deeper and ultimately come to a better understanding of any topic youve been involved in. I envy you, to be honest. Your knowledge of the Dhamma is impressive, mine is next to nothing. I'd venture as far as to say I learn much more of the written text from your discussions than anywhere else.

Me? A good writer? We'll that's the first time I've been accused of that. There are many far better writers here on the forum. I really find writing difficult and I struggle to be concise and precise as possible. I'm never really happy with what I write. If I was younger with more time, I would teach myself how to write. But I'd rather spend time learning to meditate considering how little time I have left.

Be careful on what I write on the Dhamma. I have not mastered it. I have much to learn.

But, focusing on meditation and mindfulness is definitely the right choice. One of these days, during a meditation, youre going to feel that tactile sensation in your hands or feet spread elsewhere. Youre going to direct all of your attention to it, and be thoughtless, and rest there, and it will go further.

Those blissful sensations are spreading weakly and sometimes strongly throughout the body. I feel like a rocket about to break the gravitational pull of the Earth - but I never do. I'm right on the cusp I feel.   

[Cal]

I understand. Michel, you've got a unique gift in your writing. I know on many occasions I've had to consider another perspective, to dig a little deeper and ultimately come to a better understanding of any topic youve been involved in. I envy you, to be honest. Your knowledge of the Dhamma is impressive, mine is next to nothing. I'd venture as far as to say I learn much more of the written text from your discussions than anywhere else.

Me? A good writer? We'll that's the first time I've been accused of that. There are many far better writers here on the forum. I really find writing difficult and I struggle to be concise and precise as possible. I'm never really happy with what I write. If I was younger with more time, I would teach myself how to write. But I'd rather spend time learning to meditate considering how little time I have left.

Be careful on what I write on the Dhamma. I have not mastered it. I have much to learn.

I think the fact that you do try to be concise and precise is what makes your discussions so valuable. I agree with you, there are some excellent writers on this forum. I only mean to point out that you open up the discussion. Anyone following what you write would also need to be precise and concise in their response, meaning theyd have to think a little harder, a little more in-depth. I for one learn alot. I find myself actually reading what youre discussing and trying to relate it to some experience. Whether it was some discussion on the N8P or the 5 aggregates, youve given me the opportunity to dig deeper into them. An opportunity I may have taken on my own accord, without a specific reason to.

Critical thinking, I dont think there is anything on this forum or elsewhere that I would read and just take as truth. I believe I have a guide of some sort. I read something and then pause on it, and sometimes a feeling arises from it. This is something I'd like to nurture some more, but ive come to trust it. So, I enjoy very much reading everything that you write for both of these reasons.

But, focusing on meditation and mindfulness is definitely the right choice. One of these days, during a meditation, youre going to feel that tactile sensation in your hands or feet spread elsewhere. Youre going to direct all of your attention to it, and be thoughtless, and rest there, and it will go further.

Those blissful sensations are spreading weakly and sometimes strongly throughout the body. I feel like a rocket about to break the gravitational pull of the Earth - but I never do. I'm right on the cusp I feel.

Think of what it is to sleep, its like turning off a switch. Your conciousness turns off. Imagine emulating this, but still being aware, and not actually asleep. Theres no anxiety or expectation, no thought or feeling, its bliss as you slip into sleep. Rest in the tactile sensation, emulate what it is to sleep, but be aware, know what youre feeling without feeling it, and rest in it. As thoughts arise, do not entertain them or drift with them, say in your mind that its a thought. Recognize them arising, name them, and then recognize it fading. In time, youre thoughts will slow, and stop.

I remember you talking about a pressure in your forhead, when you feel this, look with your eyes closed, you may see sparkles or static under your eyelids, you can rest in those as well. Just remember, it doesnt matter what they are, they just are.