Author Topic: Recovery from psychiatric meds  (Read 16249 times)

joelibrahim

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2015, 11:24:47 AM »
To Michel.Firstly congratulations.I find those diagnosed with Bipolar disorder are often the most spiritual of the people I see.If you ever get a chance to look at my writings you will see that I work with a bio-psych-socio-spiritual model.I have found this the most practical way to deal with the problems of living and it has many concrete applications.as you probably know bipolar disorder is a highly genetic condition not quite as genetic as Huntington's chorea(Woodie Guthrie) nor of colour blindness.Still this has to be kept in mind.We are dealing with biology here.
Given that reality it is likely thaty you need to stay on a little bit of medication.2.5 mg of Olanazapine is about as low as one can go and still get an effect.100 mg of Lamictal is considered the lowest effective dose .So whoever is treating you is being very cautious.
As to the issue of experiencing psychosis,I used to believe in that(during my time as an anti-psychiatrist) but overtime I have become somewhat more cautious myself.The problem is that there is research to indicate that acute,intense psychosis through glutamate release actually destroys brain cells.I have seen that in clients.For example i saw a trial lawyer female who after two acute psychotic episodes had to change her work to more notarial style as she could no longer think on her feet effectively-possibly due to lack of stress tolerance.I find these kind of consequences troubling.

Michel

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2015, 06:03:20 PM »
To Michel.Firstly congratulations.I find those diagnosed with Bipolar disorder are often the most spiritual of the people I see.If you ever get a chance to look at my writings you will see that I work with a bio-psych-socio-spiritual model.I have found this the most practical way to deal with the problems of living and it has many concrete applications.as you probably know bipolar disorder is a highly genetic condition not quite as genetic as Huntington's chorea(Woodie Guthrie) nor of colour blindness.Still this has to be kept in mind.We are dealing with biology here.
Thank-you for your reply, Dr. Kreps. Yes, I will take a look at your work. I have already read a couple of your thought provoking essays.

Yes, the researchers say that there is a genetic abnormality in the case of bipolar people. It is considered as a neurobiological disorder that severely affects approximately 5.5 million Americans age 18 or older. So they have pathologized the symptoms of bipolar. But that is more than one way of interpreting this statistical finding. Suppose we could turn this model around and look at the opposite end and say also that perhaps the 2.5% of people that are bipolar represent an evolutionary adaptation, an improvement in the gene pool. That they are somehow able to access higher states of awareness and see a reality that others cannot see. They are highly creative people after all. Wholesome creativity is valued universally as the greatest of gifts to humanity. So because they seem odd they are demonized. Often they are perceived as a threat. Many of the great mystics, if they existed in the modern world, would be  heavily medicated. What would they do to someone like Jesus?
 
Given that reality it is likely thaty you need to stay on a little bit of medication.2.5 mg of Olanazapine is about as low as one can go and still get an effect.100 mg of Lamictal is considered the lowest effective dose .So whoever is treating you is being very cautious.
But withdrawing from both these meds is very difficult. I came close to dying from withdrawal from Clonazepine. I am sensitive to higher doses of Olanazapine. Bad side effects, etc.
As to the issue of experiencing psychosis,I used to believe in that(during my time as an anti-psychiatrist) but overtime I have become somewhat more cautious myself.The problem is that there is research to indicate that acute,intense psychosis through glutamate release actually destroys brain cells.I have seen that in clients.For example i saw a trial lawyer female who after two acute psychotic episodes had to change her work to more notarial style as she could no longer think on her feet effectively-possibly due to lack of stress tolerance.I find these kind of consequences troubling.
If we consider my theoryl of evolutionary adaptation for bipolar, we could say that in the case of this lawyer, her whole being was telling her, warning her, to stay away from the blood sport that lawyers engage in when they fight each other in the courtroom. Metaphorically, she has developed a allergic sensitivity to all of this confrontation, to this unwholesome profession.  Her depressions are perhaps due to not taking up the spiritual quest. The spirit will always led you to depression if you ignore the voice inside.  You will go from one depression to the next punctuated by periods manic insight - if you are fortunate - followed by states of distraction lost in obsessively pursuing sensory pleasures. This cyclical behaviour is like the snake who swallows its tail.

In my case, my depressions are in remission for now since I started on my spiritual quest, the great adventure, the only adventure that the soul allows; and also due to practicing the Noble Eightfold Path. But I expect that I will eventually succumb to the "Dark Night of the Soul" which is a battle in the dark cave of the soul with a minotaur demon - the ego. I will have to slay it, or it will destroy me. So I expect to experience super-depressions the likes I have never experienced before.

I have read that there is research which claims that manic psychosis can destroy brain cells. Maybe the biology is shedding useless brain matter and evolving into something better. This is part of the bipolar genetic code manifesting. A leap forward in human evolutionary biology. I know I have crazy theories. But why not put them out here.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 09:00:11 PM by Michel »

Michel

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2015, 11:27:04 PM »
PS - It is difficult to taper off Olanzipine since the smallest dose is 2.5mg and it is hard to break into smaller pieces. I can only break into 1/4's. What do you do in this case?
Perhaps you could purchase a triple beam balance and grind up all your meds down to powder, then administer the dosage you want.
I wonder what Dr. kreps advises his patients on this. I may have to invest in a triple beam balance if I decide to taper down the meds. But what a pain. The drug companies know that their product is difficult to withdraw from and they make it even more difficult to cut Olanzapine tablets into smaller portions. This small pill has a curved tapered face and is not scored and crumbles to powder when attempting to divide into eighths.

As common as literacy is today, it was uncommon only 2 centuries ago.  So, he may not have been literate, or he may not have been literate in Magadhi, which is what the Pali Canon is written in.  So, only those literate in Magadhi would have had access to the original code, and then we have the problem of language shift.  Consequently, there would have been the few who figured it out on their own, and got marginalized for it.
I read somewhere that Pali is the liturgical language of Magadhi. Is this so?


Are his teachings as they are presented today of any practical use?
To the best of my knowledge Bodhidharma left no literature.  If I recall correctly he left 2 disciples behind.  One we never heard from, and the other became the filter through which we learned of Bodhidharma.
Then on what do you base this idea that he was enlightened if there is no credible literature?

Jhanananda

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2015, 01:38:32 AM »
Yes, the researchers say that there is a genetic abnormality in the case of bipolar people. It is considered as a neurobiological disorder that severely affects approximately 5.5 million Americans age 18 or older. So they have pathologized the symptoms of bipolar. But that is more than one way of interpreting this statistical finding. Suppose we could turn this model around and look at the opposite end and say also that perhaps the 2.5% of people that are bipolar represent an evolutionary adaptation, an improvement in the gene pool. That they are somehow able to access higher states of awareness and see a reality that others cannot see. They are highly creative people after all. Wholesome creativity is valued universally as the greatest of gifts to humanity. So because they seem odd they are demonized. Often they are perceived as a threat. Many of the great mystics, if they existed in the modern world, would be  heavily medicated. What would they do to someone like Jesus?
I believe that you are onto something here.
If we consider my theoryl of evolutionary adaptation for bipolar, we could say that in the case of this lawyer, her whole being was telling her, warning her, to stay away from the blood sport that lawyers engage in when they fight each other in the courtroom. Metaphorically, she has developed a allergic sensitivity to all of this confrontation, to this unwholesome profession.  Her depressions are perhaps due to not taking up the spiritual quest. The spirit will always led you to depression if you ignore the voice inside.  You will go from one depression to the next punctuated by periods manic insight - if you are fortunate - followed by states of distraction lost in obsessively pursuing sensory pleasures. This cyclical behaviour is like the snake who swallows its tail.
You ae definitely developing your insight.
In my case, my depressions are in remission for now since I started on my spiritual quest, the great adventure, the only adventure that the soul allows; and also due to practicing the Noble Eightfold Path. But I expect that I will eventually succumb to the "Dark Night of the Soul" which is a battle in the dark cave of the soul with a minotaur demon - the ego. I will have to slay it, or it will destroy me. So I expect to experience super-depressions the likes I have never experienced before.
Since you are now leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life, and exercising advanced critical thinking; then, perhaps, you will not have such a profound spiritual crisis.
PS - It is difficult to taper off Olanzipine since the smallest dose is 2.5mg and it is hard to break into smaller pieces. I can only break into 1/4's. What do you do in this case?
Since it is already the smallest functional dose, then breaking it into halves then 1/4s, in the tapering off plan that Dr. Kreps said worked for others, seems reasonable, but Dr. Kreps would be a better judge than I.
I read somewhere that Pali is the liturgical language of Magadhi. Is this so?
The Pali Canon has always been Magadhi.  It was westerners who screwed it up and called it "Pali," when it was Magadhi.
Then on what do you base this idea that he was enlightened if there is no credible literature?
Boddhidharma was rejected everywhere he went, which is typical treatment of a mystic.  He also rejected the concept of merit accumulation, something no genuine mystic would ever buy into.
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Michel

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2015, 10:35:32 PM »
Then on what do you base this idea that he was enlightened if there is no credible literature?
Boddhidharma was rejected everywhere he went, which is typical treatment of a mystic.
That's not much to go on.

Jhanananda

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2015, 01:09:17 AM »
I agree, but it also happens to be the pattern of how mystics are treated.  Think of it this way.  If Boddhidharma was a fraud, then he would have been selling merit accumulation, and he would have been a popular guy with the sangha.
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Alexander

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2024, 12:06:34 PM »
Michel was a very brilliant poster on the forum from Canada, who successfully managed his bipolar disorder with medication. It appears (in some of Michel’s last messages) he had a psychotic breakdown. I recall him posting hostile messages to myself and Jeffrey, which were very out of character for him. He has not returned since, so I hope he is well wherever he is.

I had my own psychotic break last year, starting in June. It developed so rapidly over the summer that I was unaware I had fallen into psychosis. I experienced a mixture of what I thought was a spiritual awakening simultaneous to a trauma-induced psychosis.

Psychosis is very difficult to characterize because there are parts of it that are very funny, parts of it that are very scary, parts of it that feel like divine insight or revelation, and parts of it that are hellish or torturous. In the hospital I watched this documentary by David Harewood, which I feel is one of the most accurate portrayals of what it’s like to experience it: https://youtu.be/jZhxCCV4B4M?si=vxCx9QNe_VnUDjHI

Many of my spiritual beliefs, such as my surrender to the Inner Director, my belief in destiny, and my fascination with omen-reading, became liabilities and amplified the psychosis. My belief “everything happens for a reason” and my artistic proclivity to read meaning into everything led to the unfortunate “delusions of reference” where everything became hypermeaningful and connected. This was beautiful at first and appeared to explain everything, however it became a bridge into losing touch with reality.

Through practice over the years I learned to write and paint only using the signals of the Inner Director. So, I thought if I surrendered to that Director completely, as Socrates did in his trial and as mystics have done throughout history, it would guide me completely. However, this was a grave error and it is clear many of my intuitions arise from me and not from a divine source.

When I came to in the hospital after the Haldol administration, I was able to dispel the illusions. But, I was now stuck under the power of institutional psychiatry for the next six months.

I had some memory issues, which I began keeping a log of, and which frightened me to interpret as brain damage. However, in my log I noticed a gradual improvement of memory which encouraged me, and my intelligence seemed to be unaffected.

However, I was put on three different medications in the hospital (during the time I was involuntarily committed). I believe during this time I was over-medicated, and the drugs became more harmful than helpful. It was the last drug, Seroquel XR 300 mg, which is a powerful anticholinergic, that I think caused more brain damage than the psychosis. I went from 1-2 memory issues a day to 8+, to eventually so many I stopped keeping track on the log. The drug also affected my appetite and caused me to fall into an artificial depression. It also slowed my processing speed. At the time this drug was preferable to the previous one, Risperidone, which caused me to fall into akathisia. Akathisia is a nightmarish-dysphoric state I believe caused by an imbalance of dopamine in the brain. It was during this period that I became the most suicidal I have been in my life.

I do feel efforts should be made at drug minimization and discontinuation, however in a hospital setting they need to justify their salaries and you being there, which encourages long-term maintenance.

In the hospital they gave me a bipolar I diagnosis. I initially argued against this, explaining I don’t have the mood cycling of bipolar, but then finally agreed with them after being worn down so much and being completely under their authority.

Now that I am out I believe I have complex post-traumatic stress disorder, which has a sexual origin; and which I believe is also the cause of the agitation I experience during meditation and which has been one of my largest impediments to success in the contemplative life.

It has been several years of personal tragedy lately, with my exposure to the toxic chemical fumes back in March of 2020, and the psychotic break in June of 2023. The psychosis is also discouraging due to the alienation of friends and relationships which came as a result of it.

My goal now is to try to recover my brain function back to where it was, return to some form of normal life, then attempt to resolve the origins of my complex PTSD. Then, resume contemplative practice, particularly work on the OOBE, with renewed intensity.
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Michel

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2024, 02:47:26 PM »
Hello Alexander,

I am very sorry to hear of your nightmare predicament. I have suffered from akathisia while on Haldol, an anti-psychotic. The restlessness was so bad I could not sit down for more than 10 seconds. They gave me a drug called Cogentin and it went away.  I also had other conditions such as severe muscle cramps and not being able to pee. They subsided as well.

I recommend you check out "Mad in America", a very good website for all things psychiatric with a strong emphasis on patients opinions. See here search results for Akathisia: https://www.madinamerica.com/?s=akathisia+

Hope you find this useful.

Michel

Alexander

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2024, 08:27:50 PM »
Good to hear from you Michel, and that you are doing well.

Yes, I had briefly heard of Robert Whitaker before being in the hospital, and while there I spent some time reading and listening to him (in addition to Kay Redfield Jamison and Joanna Moncrieff).

There are issues with the system, but I appreciate how difficult it is to balance patient rights with appropriate intervention during a mental health crisis. Over the summer I did go to a psychiatrist and the ER, though in both cases I had no idea I was psychotic at the time. In the latter case he did prescribe a benzodiazepine which I took, but an antipsychotic would have been more appropriate. However, I don’t know if it’s possible for them to prescribe those in the ER.

If I review my experience in the hospital, I appreciate the Haldol injection, which got me out of the psychosis, however the duration of my stay was too long and the maintenance drugs became more harmful than helpful.

Re: akathisia, yes it was a truly horrible experience, and difficult for others to comprehend. It was an artificial state of the brain caused by the drugs. As I mentioned it stripped all the natural state of wellness away, and replaced it with dysphoria.

Good to hear you recovered from your side effects!
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Jhanananda

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2024, 03:37:49 PM »
It is good to hear from both of you, Alexander, and Michel. I am glad to hear Alexander has been released from the hospital. For those of us who are mystics, unfortunately psychiatry does not understand the difference between the mystic's internal experience and psychosis. But, I can only encourage future mystics to learn to meditate deeply, to cultivate the interior mystical experience, which is characterized by bliss, joy and ecstasy.
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Tad

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2024, 10:21:39 AM »
Alexander,

That is a great summary of your experience. It can be very helpful to many to learn from. Your lessons made me think that it is probably one of the reasons why Buddha was not interested in teaching much metaphysics. Theoretical beliefs can be dangerous.

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2024, 03:13:01 PM »
Alexander,

That is a great summary of your experience. It can be very helpful to many to learn from. Your lessons made me think that it is probably one of the reasons why Buddha was not interested in teaching much metaphysics. Theoretical beliefs can be dangerous.

Well said, Tad.
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Alexander

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2024, 12:38:15 PM »
One of the things I learned from my accident with the solvents (which affected me neurologically), and from my time with the psych meds, is that the brain itself and its composition has a strong impact on our emotional state.

The psych drugs have affected my dopamine, serotonin, gaba, and acetylcholine systems, which are now hopefully in the gradual process of normalizing. Since withdrawing, I went through about 2 weeks of depression, followed by 2 weeks of agitation. My memory and intelligence seem better - I’m able to write again - which shows acetylcholine is coming at least partially back. Gaba is not functioning properly, given the large amounts of agitation I’ve been experiencing.

I have some extra benzodiazepines in the house from past prescriptions (maybe about a week’s worth), so I’ve been taking them to hopefully ease the transition back into my normal mental-emotional functioning. It’s interesting as I can wake up in a largely dysphoric state, take a lorazepam, then be more-or-less restored to a functional state.

If my memory and processing speed recover, then going mad was an interesting and long-term positive life event, which taught me a lot about man, and which also caused a transformation of my personal beliefs.

I have been pondering the jhanas relative to the brain, and it suggests there is a natural means of adapting the brain through meditation to amplify its dopamine, gaba, and other receptors to cultivate a sense of wellness. It makes sense that years of PTSD had been an impediment to this, with the trauma causing agitation (gaba disruption).

One day at a time.
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Jhanananda

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2024, 02:51:08 PM »
Thank you for sharing your interesting insights in neurology and psychiatric meds. Have you paid any attention to air quality? I have been speculating that components of air pollution might have a psychiatric implication. Yes, I agree regarding the 8 stages of samma-samadhi having an effect upon neurology as the bliss, joy and ecstasy surely have neurological benefits.
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Alexander

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Re: Recovery from psychiatric meds
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2024, 03:12:08 PM »
Thank you for sharing your interesting insights in neurology and psychiatric meds. Have you paid any attention to air quality? I have been speculating that components of air pollution might have a psychiatric implication. Yes, I agree regarding the 8 stages of samma-samadhi having an effect upon neurology as the bliss, joy and ecstasy surely have neurological benefits.

I have not noticed this no, though when I looked at your area on the US fires map, I did see that wildfires lead to decreased air quality. Depending on where you have been residing, it could be long term ambient wildfire pollution has affected your health.
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"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)