Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => General Discussion => : Cal August 06, 2014, 01:23:07 AM
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I don't even know where to begin...Let me start with some background. I have no formal, or informal, education in Buddhism, Suttas, or any Literature on the subject of meditation. Nor have I ever practiced meditation, or sought to until recently. I've recently re-connected with a member of this forum through Facebook. I say "reconnected" when in reality, he and I were only an aquaitence at best. This is hard to put into words, but his way with words compelled me to engage in conversation. There was something about the way that he wrote that hit close to home.
There was a dark time in my life when i was very young. I had a very close family member pass away, and the effects of this complicated my life on an extreme level. It was years before I was able to find a way to "cope" if you will, and everything previous to this was an angry time. I started to look inward. I started looking inward at others. I strove to try and find an answer to the "why" of others, on every level. And thats all i remember...I draw a blank, its a foggy time from then after. But when I seen these posts on Facebook, they called out to me...This person had done the same and I seen it without a doubt in every one of his words.
We began to talk, I engaged him in what i thought was the same emotions that I had experienced in my dark times. He confirmed what I believed and more. He suggested that Meditation may be avenue for me, although, when I spoke to him, it was not in search of anything. I know it sounds crazy, but its almost as if he knew me, and I him, when there is no way that could be. (All of this is completely out of character for me, and if it werent for the extremety of this situation i find myself in, i would never share it publicly, or privately for that matter) So I meditated the day before yesterday, he helped guide me. The experience was something I never expected...
I remind you, I had no knowledge of Buddhism or Jhananandas' "directions" or "guidance", I only started reading here yesterday. Within 10 minutes of starting to meditate, i felt a "radiance" around me. It was mostly in my hands, then i started to feel it elsewhere. Soon after I was able to almost channel it, amplify it, mostly in my right hand. It spread until I started to feel an intense tingling sensation go up my spine right to the top of my head, repeatedly. Tears started to fall, but although i was aware of them, it wasnt a sensation. My focus was on the heat that my body was generating. As i continued the feeling overwhelmed me, I became completely concious of something else. I started to drift in and out of reality, all while being almost hyper aware of everything, mostly of my "aura". Then my friend of this forum asked me to stop, I was litterally on the edge of something extremely spectacular...
The next day i was completely aware of my aura, i felt it, I feel it. I meditated that night as well, this time unguided, and the results have me scared. Scared that I am on the edge of something that will consume me. That this "worldly" life that the masses live, that I have been trained my entire life to fit the mold of, is crumbling. I cant let this happen! My family and specifically my daughter MUST have me here with them...I write here in search of criticism, tell me this isnt real! Although I know it is...
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Hi Cal and welcome to the forum. To put in simple terms, you are having a kundalini awakening. Sometimes , it could be very frightening. The matter is, is to let go of that fear. Fear would certainly consume you in a very negative way. From what you describe, it sounds like something is wonderful is happening to you and it also might just be glimpse of what you can achieve. Happiness and letting go of your past is the keyword here. Cheers.
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Cal, I should have mentioned by now that some of the people on here raised families while going through what you have begun to experience. Jhananda, for example. He says he would wake up before everyone else, meditate, then go to work. Then he would come home, kiss the wife and kids, and meditate. Is that much different from coming home and playing video games or watching TV or fishing?
I almost left my companion and daughter, as terrible as it always sounded to think about it. There were reasons I truly felt it would be to their mutual benefit if I left. It wasn't a selfish notion, and was based on my past--not my progress in meditation. But, Jhananda's story, although I'm sure not empty of strife, encouraged me to move forward. My companion is fully aware of what I am going through, what I experience, and even that I intend this to be my last lifetime as a human. But she is supportive and understanding. She even experiences charisms because of my presence, which she enjoys.
The things I've gone through, like you are, changed me in a way that makes people want to be near me. It's healing, and helps them to live from their heart--like they want to. They feel comforted, accepted, and free. My families life situation will most likely never be socially approved; but what's most important to humans is to be loved, accepted, and as free from suffering as they can be. For me, this seems to be working out.
But once we find a way to make peace, through the contemplative life, it's really okay whatever happens. I'm writing a paper on perception and how its ordinary limitations cause so much suffering and confusion. Any of us can look back on a situation we thought was terrible, and then see how it became the greatest thing that ever happened to us. Both of those are an illusion which perception creates. Because in the end, it just IS. Here is an excerpt from that paper I wrote. The whole paper will go up in my philosophy thread later:
"Let's say a massive asteroid hits our planet tomorrow, destroying all human life. Also, let us say there are a handful of humans developing the first colony on mars who, by some unknown mechanic of living on mars, live to be billions of years old. Those humans might look at the event on earth and think "what a terrible event." However, aeons later, an even more peaceful and abundant earth population of humans sprouts up in it's wake. Then those same witnesses might look back and say "What a good event." Then, let us say the same thing happens, in many different ways, with many different results, over many, many aeons, and these humans who have all this in recorded history are looking it over. They would say "This happened."
In other words, "good" and "bad", our preferences and desires, are a matter of limited perception. It just IS."
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Thank you so much for offering another perspective gandarloda and Jhanon...I'm going to take some time to study, and learn. Thank you for allowing me to share that, it was a huge weight lifted off my shoulders.
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Cal, this is a post related to your current mind state from another "novice" on the forum. I think you may find it helpful
Far beyond what you thought we could explore? My, my! That does sound exciting.
Yes I am coming from not believing in chakras, stigmata, and many other religious things. To find out that I can feel the chakras like physical entities inside of me, feeling an aura around my whole body, having extremely lucid dreams, and knowing to that this is still the beginning. It has brought such a refreshing side to my life that I feel like dropping to my knees in tears. After hating so much of the things I have had to do in this lifetime, this is one thing that I have felt that I so badly want to keep close to my heart. The charisms have been strong (for me) but yet subtle at the same time. The charisms have felt more like the sacred to me lately, it is a place that when I am so hurt and confused, I can give myself up to the bliss and it feels like an angel picking me up to embrace me and allow me to let my pain go. I am still working to adjust my worldly life so that it is not so stressful, so that I may more fully enjoy these charisms that have been a blessing in disguise for me. I spent nearly a year so afraid of the bliss, but it is finally starting to feel better.
Just wanting to say that I have not been having such stressful dreams lately. I even saw some friends that I have not seen in years last night, and held hands with two of them letting them know how much I loved them for being good to me while I knew them. Made me wake up wanting to cry, but in a good way. I had not let myself ever tell them how I felt in real life, so it felt relieving to even though I never had intention of doing so. I understand that it might not have even been real, but the feelings I felt were.
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Welcome, Cal, and thank-you friends for welcoming him here. Cal, from your description it is clear to me that you tapped into the charism right away, which is surely due to skilled guidance from someone who has the genuine attainment of the charisms. The wisdom here is to follow those charisms to greater depths through surrender in deep meditation.
I wish I could say more, but I am very limited in time, and will have to retreat into the wilderness shortly. Welcome, and make yourself home here.
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"And what sort of mental absorption did he praise? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the sort of mental absorption that the Blessed One praised.
This is wow...I dont even have the words to describe how absolutely acurate this is...(Admittedly I dont fully understand the meanings of the adjectives, only the feelings that I feel. So I relate the adjectives used as a progression through.) The progression is just as its written. Although, in my own experience, when in the 4th (which is clear to me now that is what it is) I almost immediately start to see this "blue flame" from the outsides of my eyes that forms a ball that rapidly moves away and turns from a blue ball to a ball of bright light, it gets smaller as it moves away and increases speed exponetially. It will come and go throughout my sessions. When i embrace it, no accept it...I guess when i "let go" "I" stop and am blurred. Its like turning on and off a television. Is this the 5th Samadhi? Rather, the edge of? How can I stay in the 4th skillfully? Is the 4th Jhana that feeling of weightlessness? The almost nothingness?
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As I read that passage over and over I think I answer my own questions. I'll be blunt-The path is to become ONE with exactly what is described in the passage above? Unity with oneself. It is superb in every way, I cannot deny it.
But why Jhananda? Is this our purpose? To know and to be...yet unfulfilled because even as ONE, you must return here. I don't understand. We cannot be always. I must suffer...I dont understand. Is it in the end or the beginning? Is this a test? Or is the purpose only to search? I see this coming to relinquishing thought and allowing fate...sorrow.
This is The test. "This is the sort of mental absorption that the Blessed One praised."
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I have a few problems with that translation, although I am not completely sure which sutta you are quoting, because the description is repeated in many suttas. The one I translated is as follows:
The Noble Search
Ariyapariyesana Sutta (MN 26.28)
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda 11-02-06
"Monks, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Aromas cognizable via the nose — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Tastes cognizable via the tongue — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are the five strings of sensuality.
(1st Jhana)
"Suppose that a wild deer is living in a wilderness glen. Carefree it walks, carefree it stands, carefree it sits, carefree it lies down. Why is that? Because it has gone beyond the hunter's range. In the same way, a seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) renounces (vivicceva) sensuality (kàmehi), renounces unwholesome mental states and beliefs (akusalehi dhammehi) with applied and sustained attention (savitakkaü savicàraü) and bliss and joy (pãtisukhaü) one resides (viharati) in the clarity (upasampajja) of the first ecstasy (pañhamaü jhànaü). This seeker of Buddhahood is said to have blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara. Trackless (apadaü), he has destroyed Mara's vision (màracakkhuü) and has become invisible (adassanaü) to the Evil One (pàpimato).
(2nd Jhana)
"Then again seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), originating from (ekodibhàvaü) applied and sustained attention (vitakkavicàrànaü) with clear intention (våpasamà) and a noble tranquil mind (sampasàdanaü cetaso), and in the absence of applied and sustained attention (avitakkaü avicàraü) with absorption (samàdhijaü) in bliss and joy (pãtisukhaü), one resides (viharati) in the clarity (upasampajja) of the second ecstasy (dutiyaü jhànaü). This seeker of Buddhahood is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One.
(3rd Jhana)
"Then again seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), Residing in (viharati) bliss (Pãtiyà), dispassion (viràgà) and equanimity (upekkhako); and with a luminous (sampajàno) joy-filled body (sukha°Ëca kàyena) a noble one (ariya) proclaims a joyful abiding (sukhavihàrãti) in the equanimity (upekkhako) and mindfulness (satimà) and clarity (upasampajja) of the third ecstasy (jhana). seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One.
(4th Jhana)
"Then again seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), with the abandoning (pahànà) of pleasure (sukhassa) and anxiety (dukkhassa); and the earlier abandoning (pahànà pubbeva) of manic-depression (somanassadomanassànaü), agitation (atthaïgamà), suffering and unhappiness (adukkhamasukhaü); one arrives at (viharati) the clarity (upasampajja) and complete purity of mindful equanimity (upekkhàsatipàrisuddhiü) of the fourth ecstasy (catutthaü jhànaü). This, seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave), is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One.
The Immaterial attainments
These are equivalent to Nirvikalpa samadhi
Fifth Samadhi or First Arupa Samadhi
Astral plane (àkàsànañcàyatanaü)
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), with complete (Sabbaso) transcendence of perceptions of the physical domain (råpasaññànaü), passing beyond (samatikkama) the rapacious material world (pañighasaññànaü), extinguishing (atthagamà) the variety of sensory perceptions (nànattasaññànaü), without the endless pull of mental activity (amanasikàrà ananto àkàsoti), one travels within (upasampajja viharati) the astral plane (àkàsànañcàyatanaü). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato).
Sixth Samadhi or Second Arupa Samadhi
the domain of volition, Vinnananaacayatana
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), with completely (Sabbaso) passing beyond (samatikkama) the astral plane (àkàsànañcàyatanaü), approaching (upasampajja) unbound (anantaü) volition (viññàõanti), one traverses (viharati) the domain of volition (viññàõañcàyatanaü). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato).
Seventh Samadhi or Third Arupa Samadhi
domain of no evil, Akincannayatana
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), completely (Sabbaso) passing beyond (samatikkama) the domain of volition (viññàõañcàyatanaü) free of evil (natthi kiñcãti) one traverses (viharati) the domain of no evil (àkiñcaññàyatanaü). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato).
Eighth Samadhi or Fourth Arupa Samadhi
Domain of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Nevasannanasannnayatana
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), completely (Sabbaso) passing beyond (samatikkama) the domain of no evil (àkiñcaññàyatanaü) near to (upasampajja) limitless (anantaü) volition (viññàõanti) one traverses (viharati) the domain of neither-perception-nor-non-perception (nevasaññànàsaññàyatanaü). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato).
Liberation (nirodha) through Samadhi
Cessation, saññá-vedayita-nirodha, Nibanna
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), completely (Sabbaso) passing beyond the domain of neither-perception-nor-non-perception (nevasaññànàsaññàyatanaü) to complete liberation from sensory perception (saññàvedayitanirodhaü), residing (viharati) within wisdom, having understood his taints through investigation (upasampajja). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato). Having crossed over, he is unattached in the world. Carefree he walks, carefree he stands, carefree he sits, carefree he lies down. Why is that? Because he has gone beyond the Evil One's range."
The object of deep meditation is to renew ourselves in absorption everyday; which cleanses us of addictive behaviors, which are called "sins" in Christianity, and "fetters" in Buddhism. When we die, then we enter into deep absorption, which takes us to high planes of existence, where we need not come back to this plane.
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ajjhima Nikaya 108
Gopaka Moggallana Sutta (MN 108)
Moggallana the Guardsman
Ten Qualities Inspiring Confidence
Its was numbered as 27.
I believe that I read something somewhere of conflicting descriptions, or mis interpreted. It was in the progression of the passage that I found meaning. I recalled the sensations or shifts in feeling while progressing from jhana to jhana.
It was a very sorrowfull night for me last night as I came to a realization of existence. "Life", the one that we live and all others on this planet is truly one of suffering. I care not for myself, yet my compassion for others overwhelmed me as I contemplated on what truly is. Thankfully i was able to reach out to Jhanon, and as always, he spoke the right words to not only help me overcome this sorrow, but to refresh my own conviction.
Thank you Jhananda for making clear, Purpose. I struggle with Identity and Ego. As a product of this, I tend to require Purpose.
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I've come to an understanding today, that a retreat from everything,everyone, and anything, is necessary. In the past 3 weeks since finding jhana, everything has went way too fast. The world hasn't stopped, I still have responsibilities that must be full filled. Yet I require a time of self contemplation, this much is clear. What is also clear, there is a way to listen to the guidance from inside that I haven't learned how to yet. Not fully. I wish everything could just stop for a week so that I can get my bearings and decide. I need to make this happen.
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You speak of the perpetual struggle of lay life or "householder" life. My life has been one of extreme worldly responsibility, followed by "less." The former is debilitating and maddening. The latter is quite fulfilling. But, the former, I believe, exists for those who have it, for a reason (helping us along the path, or helping us help others along the path.) I only mean to show that we're talking about the Mysterious Way, as "Lao Tzu" would say.
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Jhanananda, when you say that mastery of the 4th jhana is the relinquishing of the 10 fetters, you mean this litterally? That "space" and feeling therein is void of any fetters...when you say live the rigorous contemplative life, you mean stay in 4th jhana...this one is pretty obvious.
Here's my issue. I have been trying to understand the N8P. I can honestly say that the first 3 fetters are gone in my worldly life. The others make themselves apparent randomly. I have much work in this regard, yet I have only made progress in my meditation practice. Which I will admit is an hour a night after work, on the nights that I meditate. I try to make my hour of free time at home a day one of contemplation, then one of meditation. Anyway, I have only made progress...I just have to be blunt, the goal is not to practice the N8P, but to become it. While you are in 4th jhana, you are it. Therefore stay in 4th jhana. The worldly life has nothing to do with it. (Except that you must practice meditative absorption skillfully to the 4th jhana.) ??
One learns to become the 4th Jhana!! This would be perfect! I've never tried moving while there, I wonder it possible. I must explore this!!
...the Noble Eightfold Path is the 4th jhana, they are one and the same...
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A part of me wants to delete the posts from last night, for reasons of insecurity. The other part of me wants them to stay so that I can reflect on them, even if in disgust. Something happened to me last night on my drive home, I realized that I was observing my body. It acted of its own will, it was as if there we two of me in a sense, that could communicate and then ultimately come to a conclusion. I'm sure a head doctor would say that I am bipolar or delusional. Perhaps i am. After getting home I became aware of my "state" and began a conversation with Jhanon via texting. I was speaking to him as if I were "2" seperate forms. I didn't take his advice, I was sure. But slowly his words grounded me. He helped me come back from a place I had never been. Oh another thing, I was telling him that I could control "it" (host) and it fought back and regained control for a time. Thank you Jhanon, you are a true friend.
I need direction here very badly. Can anyone here deny or confirm this "state"? Can it be explained by other worldly definitions? I cannot let go of my past if this is my future, not yet.
I might add that a spent a good deal of time in an electrical panel room, in the factory that I work for. 10s of thousands of volts at various Hz. VAC, VDC, every variation of electricity is in this room, it's where I am right now lol. I remember telling jhanon that I could smell it yesterday when I absorbed deeper. I've been around this amount of electricity for most of my adult life, I've shocked the shot out of myself plenty even. Yet I have never been so aware of it. Could this be a factor?
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I am afraid...
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Just read the beginning of the Power of Now again, or further into it. Your "host" is nothing more than a husk, like the caterpillar uses as a cacoon before soon breaking out of it and flyin away free as a butterfly. The cacoon served and serves a purpose. It is like a servant, or a tool.
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Just read the beginning of the Power of Now again, or further into it. Your "host" is nothing more than a husk, like the caterpillar uses as a cacoon before soon breaking out of it and flyin away free as a butterfly. The cacoon served and serves a purpose. It is like a servant, or a tool.
Most people are like caterpillars (ego/identity). Once one enters the stream, it is like we've entered the cocoon (we're wrapped in ego/identity, but do not mistake it for ourselves). Full enlightenment is a butterfly, where only a few parts of our identity remains--such as the body. I believe this is an accurate way to explain it.
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To Cal
Are you afraid of yourself?
This state of being is when you are observing your body and it's activity. Nothing to be afraid of.
To be a mystic or contemplative, one must be a warrior. The weapons should be equanimity and critical thinking. Most of all I would advise you to read the 4 noble truth and try to get the real meaning.
Edit : Sorry for the earlier post.
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I agree, Gandarloda. I thought your first version of your post was just fine. But this one is even better.
Thank you
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To Cal
... Most of all I would advise you to read the 4 noble truth and try to get the real meaning.
FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS
Suffering - from SN 22:104 (2)
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you suffering, the origin of
suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the
cessation of suffering.
"And what, bhikkhus, is suffering? It should be said: the five
aggregates subject to clinging. What five? The form
aggregate subject to clinging, the feeling aggregate subject to
clinging, the perception aggregate subject to clinging, the volitional
formations aggregate subject to clinging, the consciousness
aggregate subject to clinging. This is called suffering.
'And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of suffering? It is this craving
that leads to renewed existence, accompanied by
delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving
for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination.
This is called the origin of suffering.
"And what, bhikkhus, is the cessation of suffering? It is the
remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving,
the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance
on it. This is called the cessation of suffering.
"And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of
suffering? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view ...
right concentration. This is called the way leading to the cessation
of suffering."
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Here it the Buddha's 4 noble truths, and all other disciplines as extracted and properly translated from the discourses. Together, I think, they give the best picture. But it is a long read.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/mahasatipatthanasutta.htm
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I revisit the four noble truths and find more understanding. Through contemplation, one finds the answers sought after.
Yes, Sam, it is I that I fear. I will cause the ones I love more suffering. Especially if I do not control how and when I express myself. That state of "being" did not understand consequence.
Jhanananda said "it takes patience and stick to it ive ness" I can relate his meaning, here.
Thanks for the post as well, Michel. I read it as best I could, but it's a little harder to follow, I have to read it slow. :)
Thank you all again.
Jhanon you've got a way with analogies, I understand you brother, thank you again.
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Jhanananda, when you say that mastery of the 4th jhana is the relinquishing of the 10 fetters, you mean this litterally? That "space" and feeling therein is void of any fetters...when you say live the rigorous contemplative life, you mean stay in 4th jhana...this one is pretty obvious.
Yes, when you describe observing yourself working, or driving home, but you are not doing the driving. This is at least the 3rd jhana. However, psychiatry would call it a dissociated state. They are not mystics. Just move through life like this, and allow it to go deeper.
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Thank you so very much jhanananda. I will continue.
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Hello Cal
We don't need a sense of purpose, that is an identity that comes from the ego. If you get to a point where you have no sense of purpose you can just look at yourself and notice that you are still there and are still OK.
I call it living with no visible means of support.
In a meditation I feel that I am in "Oneness" and then back in physical reality I am in "duality".
In oneness love comes automatically as bliss but in duality love comes as the insight into good and evil. In duality if you want to experience love you may get a lesson in evil until the point that you understand and then it will switch to love. In a meditation I don't have to experience anything I just feel bliss without experiencing good and evil.
For myself it makes me feel as if I don't want to be here at all but if I just surrender and then follow what the day gives me without worrying about it then things work out better, I don't need to know and there is comfort in that : -)
Bless Valdy
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Yes, "Life" has a way of operating in extremity, yet thankful, cause the hardest lesson is the one best learned, no? It touches me deeply to hear another describe, that they too, feel the same in meditation. =)
The sense of "purpose" is something that came, and has now gone. Once the answer was given, it has had no meaning. It still has an identity, yet fading. I do not. I must remain a watcher at all times, in this, I will guide it to truth. Yet I must learn many more things as well.
Please forgive my speaking this way, yet http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/mahasatipatthanasutta.htm has provided some great insight. The experience from last night, and the guidance to train it provided in this link, will lead us.
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Alexander, you spoke of Father Rogers as being the flip side to our meditation coin. If it is how I see it now, I agree. Wow.
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Hello Cal,
Yes, as I said in the thread on Discerning Attainment, Father Roger is a nonreturner, but exhibits no charisms. The most fantastic thing, he said, was the experience that accompanied conversion.
I attribute this to his not practicing meditation. His one practice is to repeat the Jesus Prayer. That explains his control over the mind/self. But, the Jesus Prayer is based on mental repetition, not quiescence. So, to attain quiescence, as St. Teresa says, he must evacuate the thoughts from his mind.
He remains holy and wise. In his case that state exists independently of the signs/symptoms of holiness.
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Actually I was just talking to him about this the other day. He was defending to me how he liked his thoughts, he did not want to give them up. Of course, he is a scholar. But, I had to inform him of his laziness. Haha.
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You must know him very well, or your discernment is impeccable, or even both? :) "The most fantastic thing...was the experience that accompanied conversation." There is great insight in this.
He may simply view "himself" as a man of god. In fact, I am sure he does.
Thank you Alexander.
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Actually I was just talking to him about this the other day. He was defending to me how he liked his thoughts, he did not want to give them up. Of course, he is a scholar. But, I had to inform him of his laziness. Haha.
How interesting. Someone I "friended" on FB has continually sent messages in effort to connect. They are someone of "high society" in a few ways, and live in New York. I found this odd, and since I couldn't find time to call him, I finally just came right out and told him I was a mystic. I have never done that with anyone. Luckily, it wasn't "me" who did it. But he responded to tell me he enjoys "channeling Universal Wisdom", but he rather enjoys thinking.
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I am coming to the belief that when it begins to search for the identity of I, one begins a Dark Night. Although it has not experienced this to be true I tells it to understand this. Any thoughts?
An issue that I am having with the Four Noble Ones, this leads it to believe I has identity. It does not search, it does not need to know, perhaps thanks are due to Valdy for this.
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I'm finding it easier to live the contemplative lifestyle with the passing of each day. I become aware from time to time in my daily activities that I am just sitting back watching the habitual actions of my body doing what they do. Keeping its normal routine. Other times, when I am very busy, it is not easy to be in this state. My wife will text, the boss will yell, my equipment just refuses to fulfill its purpose. my mind takes the wheel for a time, yet I am still aware of my tactile sensation, or aura. I've even learned to break some bad habits :) Opiods being on of the bigger ones. Yet my schedule keeps me from meditation. My wife and daughter need the attentions I promised them years back. She has not been receptive of a passion other than her in my life. I'm looking for a "technique" if you will. One that will allow for required meditations during the day, so that I may devote the little bit of time that is not consumed by work, to my family. Any suggestions? Like maybe explain walking meditation. Is it differ than the stilling of the mind I do during my days? Any help is appreciated, thanks in advance GWV :)
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I'm finding it easier to live the contemplative lifestyle with the passing of each day. I become aware from time to time in my daily activities that I am just sitting back watching the habitual actions of my body doing what they do. Keeping its normal routine. Other times, when I am very busy, it is not easy to be in this state. My wife will text, the boss will yell, my equipment just refuses to fulfill its purpose. my mind takes the wheel for a time, yet I am still aware of my tactile sensation, or aura. I've even learned to break some bad habits :) Opiods being on of the bigger ones. Yet my schedule keeps me from meditation. My wife and daughter need the attentions I promised them years back. She has not been receptive of a passion other than her in my life. I'm looking for a "technique" if you will. One that will allow for required meditations during the day, so that I may devote the little bit of time that is not consumed by work, to my family. Any suggestions? Like maybe explain walking meditation. Is it differ than the stilling of the mind I do during my days? Any help is appreciated, thanks in advance GWV :)
Struggle is the underlying experience of the physical existence. All we can hope to do is still the mind, over and over again, and keep turning one's awareness to the charisms. When we do, then we are moving toward being a mystic.
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Ahh, yes, through self surrender and absorption. When you were here, in similar shoes, did you just live in the moment? To just let be what will be? I've actually gotten very good at struggle :) the bad thing is I cannot turn my back on the Truth. I just want to find what works best for right now, until I can change the structure of my life to a more accommodating one.
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If I ask a seemingly different question, yet receive the same answer, I have asked the same question...
::)... ;D
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Hi again GWV, I've been researching past lives as of late. Jeffery explains them as an experience that proceeds a Skillfullness of deep meditation. So in this regard, should I attribute this a metric of progress, when they come? I am curious about them, I have a feeling the experience could help me disassociating more skillfully during daily activity.
In this regard, also help with the burning of my many fetters, like idle chatter and impulsiveness.
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Ahh, yes, through self surrender and absorption. When you were here, in similar shoes, did you just live in the moment? To just let be what will be? I've actually gotten very good at struggle :) the bad thing is I cannot turn my back on the Truth. I just want to find what works best for right now, until I can change the structure of my life to a more accommodating one.
In my opinion the contemplative life is all about finding what works, and dumping what does not work, which is more of a constant honing of the edge of your awareness, and the skills to get there.
Hi again GWV, I've been researching past lives as of late. Jeffery explains them as an experience that proceeds a Skillfullness of deep meditation. So in this regard, should I attribute this a metric of progress, when they come? I am curious about them, I have a feeling the experience could help me disassociating more skillfully during daily activity.
In this regard, also help with the burning of my many fetters, like idle chatter and impulsiveness.
Uncovering past lives seems to be all about developing greater depths of self-awareness, and correcting ancient mental patterns. So, yes, it is useful thing to develop for a dedicated contemplative, and can also be used as a benchmark of attainment.
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Dreaming has always been something of a wonder for me. Truth be told, I only recall a dream maybe once every 6 months or so. Funny thing is, I recall a dream from last night, although i dont know the meaning. I know I had only slept for about 4 hours and I awoke about 3 seconds before my alarm started going off. I died in this dream, yet it was not as I had imagined, or perhaps, it was exactly how I imagined =). There were only the faces of people that have been close to me in life, in the dream. Close to me in this life. We were "floating" near a cliff, yet in water. I was weightless. There were huge waves off in the distance that seemed to move upward, rather than in the traditional wave crashing on a cliff. Like a Tsunami. They prodded upwards, then crashed into the water, not the cliff. More would form, move in an upward fashion, then crash down into the water, yet they got closer. Everyone around me was just dumbfounded, unaware, looking at me. I remember trying to get their attention focused on the next wave that ultimately killed all of us. Then i woke up. The funny thing about these waves is that they didnt splash. They created an undercurrent, that didnt effect us until the last one, but i found it odd. I was the only person in my dream aware that something was going to happen. Ive wondered about this dream all day, but I cant really draw any kind of mystical insight from it. I can say, that I was very absorbed before bed, meh who knows. Maybe its something maybe its not. I am excited though, to have a dream, like I said, they dont come often.
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Ahh, yes, through self surrender and absorption. When you were here, in similar shoes, did you just live in the moment? To just let be what will be? I've actually gotten very good at struggle :) the bad thing is I cannot turn my back on the Truth. I just want to find what works best for right now, until I can change the structure of my life to a more accommodating one.
In my opinion the contemplative life is all about finding what works, and dumping what does not work, which is more of a constant honing of the edge of your awareness, and the skills to get there.
Hi again GWV, I've been researching past lives as of late. Jeffery explains them as an experience that proceeds a Skillfullness of deep meditation. So in this regard, should I attribute this a metric of progress, when they come? I am curious about them, I have a feeling the experience could help me disassociating more skillfully during daily activity.
In this regard, also help with the burning of my many fetters, like idle chatter and impulsiveness.
Uncovering past lives seems to be all about developing greater depths of self-awareness, and correcting ancient mental patterns. So, yes, it is useful thing to develop for a dedicated contemplative, and can also be used as a benchmark of attainment.
Thank you Jhanananda, you inspire me to search deeper. Now I will practice honing the edge of my awareness, removing distractions, and also search deeper inside, for the traits hardest to find, and correct them. I feel this may be a lengthy challenge, and will spend many hours of contemplation towards it end.
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Dreaming has always been something of a wonder for me. Truth be told, I only recall a dream maybe once every 6 months or so. Funny thing is, I recall a dream from last night, although i dont know the meaning. I know I had only slept for about 4 hours and I awoke about 3 seconds before my alarm started going off. I died in this dream, yet it was not as I had imagined, or perhaps, it was exactly how I imagined =). There were only the faces of people that have been close to me in life, in the dream. Close to me in this life. We were "floating" near a cliff, yet in water. I was weightless. There were huge waves off in the distance that seemed to move upward, rather than in the traditional wave crashing on a cliff. Like a Tsunami. They prodded upwards, then crashed into the water, not the cliff. More would form, move in an upward fashion, then crash down into the water, yet they got closer. Everyone around me was just dumbfounded, unaware, looking at me. I remember trying to get their attention focused on the next wave that ultimately killed all of us. Then i woke up. The funny thing about these waves is that they didnt splash. They created an undercurrent, that didnt effect us until the last one, but i found it odd. I was the only person in my dream aware that something was going to happen. Ive wondered about this dream all day, but I cant really draw any kind of mystical insight from it. I can say, that I was very absorbed before bed, meh who knows. Maybe its something maybe its not. I am excited though, to have a dream, like I said, they dont come often.
In my experience, "dreams" are OOBE's where the individual is unaware. Also, as far as I have experienced, it is possible and common to absorb to "sleep", enter OOBE, be or become lucid the whole time, and "view" or "visit" those close to you, and yet they be unaware of you because they are in normal dream state.
I will leave the issue of the waves for others more experienced than I.
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Thank you Jhanananda, you inspire me to search deeper. Now I will practice honing the edge of my awareness, removing distractions, and also search deeper inside, for the traits hardest to find, and correct them. I feel this may be a lengthy challenge, and will spend many hours of contemplation towards it end.
You are welcome, Cal, honing the edge of my awareness through leading a disciplined contemplative life is a life-long process, and you are well on your way.
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I am becoming more and more aware of a deep seated need to be right, a know it all. I feel completely vulnerable in sharing this, but it dredges up emotions and attempts to hide. I don't know how to remove it. Should I prove myself wrong? Have others tell me I'm wrong? Both of these seem to lead to giving it a hiding place.
I have noticed it surfacing its head in conversations I call it for what it is, but it does not wish to be removed. Perhaps some sort of observance of humility would help? I've attempted this as well. The other day I was called an egomaniac. This was the first and only time I've heard these words directed my way. I struggled very much to be equanimous, as the person who said it was one that I had put deep faith in and trusted absolutely. I still struggle with not being judgemental towards this person, as I know this is not healthy for either party. Does anyone have any advice on this? I do not wish this person any ill will, I actually wish them absolute happiness :) I'm just confused about how to skillfully approach my ego.
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Cal, at the core of the contemplative life is self-awareness. Often our self-awareness reveals to us our flaws. So we have to learn to have equanimity regarding our self, and those who expose our weaknesses for us. But, do keep in mind, that just because someone voiced an opinion about our perceived flaws, does not mean that we actually have those flaws, unless you look inside and see that person was right. Then we thank that person for showing use a weakness.
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Cal, at the core of the contemplative life is self-awareness. Often our self-awareness reveals to use our flaws. So we have to learn to have equanimity regarding our self, and those who expose our weaknesses for us. But, do keep in mind, that just because someone voiced an opinion about our flaws, does not mean that we actually have that flaw, unless you look inside and see that person was right. Then we tank that person for showing use a weakness.
I've been contemplating it very rigorously. Yet every time I come to the conclusion that the intent behind my assertiveness, in this context, was to help this person. Was to share what I have learned in hope of growth for them. Yet out of this context I have seen it as well. I've used it as a shield. As protection from the world. Yet it has always caused the most problems. I did thank this person. I thanked them and told them that they were correct. So now I look to correct it, and any detriment it has caused. Yet I refuse to be manipulated. I must return to equanimity...
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Today I left work early, as I felt the need for refuge (Thank you Jhanon, there is nothing weak in taking refuge). A very egotistic co-worker was on a "rampage" today. I've began noticing others much more fluently, reading them, and his ugly head reared my direction. He's been doing this quite a lot actually. I believe he has caught on to my equanimity. I sense he feels threatened by it. Perhaps my facade has not been good enough. Now i have no anxiety in this regard, I only wish to share, and perhaps learn.
These people of our daily lives, they also wear a face. Yet theirs is one fabricated to hide emotions and trauma. They lash-out, they blame, they absolve, and they domineer. Their struggle is one of facade, they must "save face". They do so with absolute fervor.
So the situation at work was one that I needed to be there, at least for a few hours to get the place running after a stop of production, for cleanup. Equipment breaks, and is also good opportunity to "dig" into bigger mechanical/electrical issues. I recognized this co-workers attention yesterday, during the "downtime" I spoke of. I read it in his posture, his face, his words, and even some in his thoughts; Contempt. He was angry that he had to work, and believed that I was not working. Yet I was. It was that I did not "wear" any emotion, and this was my mistake. I had not been this way before the charisms. So today, I immediately recognized his contempt again, and it reminded me of how arrogant I had been to think that refuge was a sign of weakness. I did not "need" to leave work, or get away from him, none of this matters. I truly have only longed for the charisms, and work has made it a struggle indeed.
So after taking care of the immediate responsibility, I approached my boss. My boss is a very direct individual. The best way to describe his demeanor is one of "carnival barking". It is rather amusing at times to "read in between his lines" as there is also purpose within his charades. Yet dont be confused, he is one who rather enjoys to inflict damage and strife. He has coined the term; "What's going on here!?"
So he asks that I meet him in his office. We speak, rather he speaks and I occasionally attempt a response, about "an issue brought to his attention". This whole time he is probing my actions, my demeanor, my expressions. He blantantly says, "You don't give a shit, do ya!?" I finally have the chance to explain what I had done during the previous day and he very obviously conceded that I had not been AWAL, as my co-worker had suggested. Yet he still probed, he wanted a rise, something to "attack", as this is his nature. I did not give it to him, it was surprisingly very easy, not to. Yet I must say that I walked from his office with his eyes burning a hole in me. I felt his thoughts, he believes me crazy.
Now I recall some earlier posts that I made, ones that I felt I would be consumed, that I would lose myself. I believe I have. I believe I have lost the former self that was welcome among the deranged, the delusional. Why is it that they cannot accept one for what one is? It is clear that amongst them, they all notice. So what's next? Should one hide under ones mask, charade like the others? Where is the avenue of the householder?
All of this will have to wait, however. I now retreat to the charisms, as I have so longed for them. Thank you GWV for your ear.
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This was also my experience, and why I can't keep jobs. I don't think this is uncommon at all. Even when you are extremely outwardly benevolent and helpful, their inward selves attack. I have LITERALLY lost jobs without any logical explanation or warning. And I have to deal with lack of empathy from those close to me because they are convinced I've done something wrong. "How could you lose a job for no logical reason?"
Reading your post reminds of about 10 years ago when I went into a friends place of work to get a job. I inquired, and left. Afterwards, the friend told me I didn't get the job because the boss thought "I had a lazy walk." Translation=I don't run around like a chicken with my head cut off.
This is, again to reference The Power of Now, described in that book. Your presence will either invite peaceful demeanor and acceptance, or egoic lashing out and insane behavior. It never fails. Those who GENUINELY "have God within them" will not lash out. Rather they will be drawn to you.
After many years dealing with this, I can say it is possible to mediate the selfs of others so well that it leaves even the "lashers" confused. There isn't really a choice. Even when I "put the facade" back on the surface, they can sense it inside you. They don't realize they are sensing it.
Jhananda would likely say this is why the mystics of past have retreated to the wilderness.
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But, Cal, there ARE some employers who will appreciate your inner being. There aren't many, but they are there. This is also what has lead me to pursue self-gainful endeavors.
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I find myself in a bit of a rut. I have no desire for anything. I used to play video games; not interested. I used to call friends and party; not interested. I used to want to do activities with the family; not interested. I still have not quit smoking, this addiction clings. I must say this is the only motivator I have found this entire day. The sad part is, I'm content. I am content to just be here, however aimless it is. I find myself drifting to the charisms, and I wonder for a time. The still uncreative mind, could be seen as rather boring, yet I am content. I find myself here, on the forum, alot. Just reading, absorbing all of this grand information.
I could see others calling this depression, perhaps Michel, this could be a reason for it being absent?
I'd like to ask; Is this normal? To be expected?
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I feel like Dear Abbey.
Cal, I think you're doing just fine. In my view playing video games and hanging with friends, etc. is meaningless compared to meditating and learning the Dhamma. You just have to adjust the best way you can to being a mystic and contemplative as well as a person with family responsibilities. There's no going back. Jhanon will help you and so will everyone in the GWV. You must die to the frivolous aspects of your life. Choose how to spend your precious time wisely.
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Cal, you are doing just fine. Contentment is something everyone seeks, and few find. Those who find saturation in the religious experience (jhana) fond contentment. Expect smoking to drop away soon as well.
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Yea, saturation is a good word, it's always present. Everytime I close my eyes, I see a "static" there. Everytime I "look" for the charisms, they are present. Thank you both, again. =)
I had another dream last night, extremely vivid. Every detail, to the blades of grass, the smells, the sounds, the totality of the environment. Again I wasnt alone...it seems to be the faces of those who have been closest to me, are the ones in my dreams. I wont go into many details, as the dream was very unsettling. Perhaps it is the mind conditioning the mind. The effects of both recent dreams have been lasting, and required contemplation. They leave little confusion in regards to the fleetness of life. I am surprised to find that it does not motivate anything more than contemplation. It's seriously like, hmm, interesting, that was pretty effed up, what is the reason that my mind thinks this way when it does not while awake. As well as, is this something that has happened, or will happen? Yet in both dreams, I am present. Present in the sense that my physical body is there, looking only through my eyes. It is the faces of others that differ in "quality". They seem out of place in the extreme detail of the surrounding. The dreams remind me of the details of the demons I once saw, just so "real".
I also had another experience a few nights ago. I went outside after having somewhat of a "difficult" conversation with someone who is close in heart, yet far away. This person was emotional and i was doing everything i could think of to help. I went through my regular smoking routine, all the while contemplating the issue. I felt energy start to build when i thought "I wish I could just reach them". The energy was very much like my Kundalini awakening, it built in the bottom of the spine and expelled from the top of my head. Only instead of tears, It was like convulsions hahaha. This went on for about a minute or so, very blissful sensations. Yet I realized that I needed to regain myself, god forbid the neighbors take notice =).
I did some reading into some of your ideas on work for contemplatives today, Jhanananda. It seems like a worthwhile goal to pursue. Specifically the building of sound proof rooms. Now my career has been working metals, fabricating etc. Yet I've done some framing, Ive also got a pretty comprehensive guide into the procurement, set up, and installation of solar panels as well. I'm handy enough, I dont see any reason that couldnt be feasible. Especially if things turn out the way I suspect they will at my current job. ;D
Thanks for listening to my blabberings, GWV ;D
Oh, and LOL at The Dear Abbey comment...=) Thanks Michel
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Hey GWV, I has a question.
Have any of you ever experienced, while looking at an old photograph, or reading an article, that you are very very familiar with this individual, yet have had no interactions with either, before that moment?
I was watching a video on the movement of electrons, quantum physics, that ended with the theory of a multifaceted existence. They were speaking more towards the possiblity of parallel dimensions, of a physical nature. Yet they showed a picture of a Physicist of the early 1900's, Neils Bohr. When they showed the photograph, I turned away a bit, like what the heck are you staring at, kinda. I've never had this happen before, but i feel like i knew this man. It could also explain some theorys I had, that were just off the wall at the time, while in an "altered state" in my younger years.
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Hello Cal, part of the insight we gain from deep meditation is recollection of past lifetimes; and sometimes those recollections occur as a product of a photograph, reading a book, or watching a movie.
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Hello Cal, part of the insight we gain from deep meditation is recollection of past lifetimes; and sometimes those recollections occur as a product of a photograph, reading a book, or watching a movie.
Good to know.
What about music? I've recalled past lives through music listening, but set them aside because I am not aware of this being possible. Your comment implies any media can elicit such a recollection.
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Hello Cal, part of the insight we gain from deep meditation is recollection of past lifetimes; and sometimes those recollections occur as a product of a photograph, reading a book, or watching a movie.
Yea, thats the feeling I got from it, too. It was subtle and not alot was taken away from it, other than I knew this person, somehow. I plan to look into it a little more, as I ve also learned not to disregard that feeling.
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While working on a Dhamma chart, I found myself reading in depth, some of the suttas. I came across the story of Kevaddha. In this, the Buddha tells a story of a brother who searches the immaterial domains for the answer to his question; "Where now do these four great elements--earth, water, fire, and wind--pass away, leaving no trace behind?" against the teachings of the Blessed One.
'And when he had thus spoken, Kevaddha, I answered him thus: "Long, long ago, brother, sea-faring traders were wont, when they were setting sail on an ocean voyage, to take with them a land-sighting bird. And when the ship got out of sight of the shore they would let the land-sighting bird free. Such a bird would fly to the East, and to the South, and to the West, and to the North, to the zenith, and to the intermediate points of the compass. And if anywhere on the horizon it caught sight of land, thither would it fly. But if no land, all round about, were visible, it would come back even to the ship. Just so, brother, do you, having sought an answer to this question, and sought it in vain, even up to the Brahmâ-world, come back therefore to me. Now the question, brother, should not be put as you have put it. Instead of asking where the four great elements cease, leaving no trace behind, you should have asked:
"Where do earth, water, fire, and wind,
And long and short, and fine and coarse.
Pure and impure, no footing find?
Where is it that both name and form
Die out, leaving no trace behind?"
I only point to this from my own searching, remote viewing and such. I'm posting it more as a personal reminder, as I do tend to re-read posts here often.
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On another note, everything that I am reading re-affrims that the Buddha believed the renunciation of the householder life to be requisite of enlightenment...I guess I realized this some time ago. Yet if it is something that is not desired, the householder life, if it is a means to an end, would I only be fooling myself? I have not found it possible to interact in a seemingly meaningful manner, at least that what is needed from one who is obligated to the Identity, while turning to the charisms at every moment, engaging meditative absorption to the point of saturation and continued absorption throughout the day...
If I continue to deal with things, as they come, live in the moment, yet retain Identity on the basis of necessity...It's not the responsibility that I would "run from"...Yet is it the comfort that I desire...Fack
There is no half in and half out...
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What about music? I've recalled past lives through music listening, but set them aside because I am not aware of this being possible. Your comment implies any media can elicit such a recollection.
Yes, Jhanon, any medium can trigger insight.
While working on a Dhamma chart, I found myself reading in depth, some of the suttas. I came across the story of Kevaddha. In this, the Buddha tells a story of a brother who searches the immaterial domains for the answer to his question; "Where now do these four great elements--earth, water, fire, and wind--pass away, leaving no trace behind?" against the teachings of the Blessed One.
'And when he had thus spoken, Kevaddha, I answered him thus: "Long, long ago, brother, sea-faring traders were wont, when they were setting sail on an ocean voyage, to take with them a land-sighting bird. And when the ship got out of sight of the shore they would let the land-sighting bird free. Such a bird would fly to the East, and to the South, and to the West, and to the North, to the zenith, and to the intermediate points of the compass. And if anywhere on the horizon it caught sight of land, thither would it fly. But if no land, all round about, were visible, it would come back even to the ship. Just so, brother, do you, having sought an answer to this question, and sought it in vain, even up to the Brahmâ-world, come back therefore to me. Now the question, brother, should not be put as you have put it. Instead of asking where the four great elements cease, leaving no trace behind, you should have asked:
"Where do earth, water, fire, and wind,
And long and short, and fine and coarse.
Pure and impure, no footing find?
Where is it that both name and form
Die out, leaving no trace behind?"
I only point to this from my own searching, remote viewing and such. I'm posting it more as a personal reminder, as I do tend to re-read posts here often.
Earth, water, fire, and wind, And long and short, and fine and coarse, Pure and impure, name and form, abstract and concrete, Die out, leaving no trace behind when one leaves the material for the immaterial domains. However, if craving persists, then one returns.
On another note, everything that I am reading re-affrims that the Buddha believed the renunciation of the householder life to be requisite of enlightenment...I guess I realized this some time ago. Yet if it is something that is not desired, the householder life, if it is a means to an end, would I only be fooling myself? I have not found it possible to interact in a seemingly meaningful manner, at least that what is needed from one who is obligated to the Identity, while turning to the charisms at every moment, engaging meditative absorption to the point of saturation and continued absorption throughout the day...
If I continue to deal with things, as they come, live in the moment, yet retain Identity on the basis of necessity...It's not the responsibility that I would "run from"...Yet is it the comfort that I desire...Fack
There is no half in and half out...
Siddhartha Gautama recognized fully enlightened followers of his who were house-holders. However, the house-holder life is not for everyone. This is why some chose the monastic life.
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+1 ^what Jhananda said.
Out of all those I've guided to the stream and onward, and all those I know already long entered; If they were given a completely blameless choice of leaving their lay life for a quality monastic life, it seems there isn't a single one which wouldn't take it. But that's not going to happen at the snap of the fingers, nor for everyone. If it's going to be, then one will receive reaffirmation in many forms. One of which might be the ties to the lay life severing amicably without force, desire or manipulation for it to sever. But there is also an in-between position, which is becoming more and more common.
This is my view on it.
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It's been a few months since ive posted here. Over the last few months ive tried to move away from deep meditation and back more into a social place. i was having a very hard time finding any kind of motivation to do anything but meditate and learn as much as I could about jhana. I feel alot of guilt typing that here, as I know everyone here is doing thier best to further thier own progress. But id still like to share.
I feel more drawn to this forum than ive ever felt drawn to anything, just wanted to put that out there. Also, even though i have not been meditating for at least 6 months, Im always at least partially absorbed. I feel this mostly in my hands and feet, a tingling sensation. I know that it is abosrption because when i rest there, i begin to feel it elsewhere. There is also the constant chime or whistle that i hear. I remember writing before that I only heard it in one ear, but i think I just wast paying close enough attention to is, as it is most definitely both. It could have also been that its just so loud, constant, and does not ever leave.
I suppose alot of the reason im posting is that i want to admit that I have been doing wrong. That I have taken this time to be completely idle. I have made no progress in life or in meditation. I have literally just been here, playing video games or w/e simple minded distraction I could come up with. My wife really wants me to focus on the future. I guess that has something to do with my posting as well. She and I had a conversation the other night about religion, and i actually gave it some thought again. It was pretty amazing how much I had learned here had stuck with me. Just thinking about what ive read here and elsewhere brought about a calmness, my thoughts slowed, and I realized how welcoming meditation is. So thoughts of the future, I couldnt produce any. All thoughts to the future were of meditation.
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Good to read your thoughts and experiences, Cal. As you may know the experience of deep meditation is called 'samadhi' in the Indic religions; whereas, it is called the 'Holy Spirit' in the Abrahammic religions.
The one aspect of the Abrahammic religions that is different from the Indic religions, is an understanding that the Holy Spirit can take over our life and radically change it, often times without our willing consent. I see this happening for quite a few of the people who have posted their case histories here.
The one thing that is true of all religions, is the more we submit, take refuge, surrender to the experience of deep meditation AKA 'samadhi,' AKA the 'Holy Spirit' the more the transformation, and the more rapid the transformation. So, we get to put our foot, somewhat, on the brake and the accelerator peddle to decide how rapid that transformation is going to be.
However, once we have made contact with the 'Holy Spirit' the transformation is often times inevitable. We may even participate in the demonizing of the mystic who guided us, but still end up fully submitted to the holy spirit, whether we like it or not, like Paul.
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Good to read your thoughts and experiences, Cal. As you may know the experience of deep meditation is called 'samadhi' in the Indic religions; whereas, it is called the 'Holy Spirit' in the Abrahammic religions.
The one aspect of the Abrahammic religions that is different from the Indic religions, is an understanding that the Holy Spirit can take over our life and radically change it, often times without our willing consent. I see this happening for quite a few of the people who have posted their case histories here.
The one thing that is true of all religions, is the more we submit, take refuge, surrender to the experience of deep meditation AKA 'samadhi,' AKA the 'Holy Spirit' the more the transformation, and the more rapid the transformation. So, we get to put our foot, somewhat, on the brake and the accelerator peddle to decide how rapid that transformation is going to be.
Thank you Jeff, this is something that has become a reality for me and your guidance is definitely appreciated. I will admit, that i thought hat if i stopped meditating that these experiences could just go away. That life would go back to normal. The thing that keeps itching at me though is the validity of this. When i first started meditating, and had my awakening i tried to stay skeptical. I thought alot of it be a product of my imagination. Instead ive become anxious and i miss the tranquility of meditation. id also say that its not an effect of any specific event either. Its just the only thing that feels right, and i miss it.
However, once we have made contact with the 'Holy Spirit' the transformation is often times inevitable. We may even participate in the demonizing of the mystic who guided us, but still end up fully submitted to the holy spirit, whether we like it or not, like Paul.
I dont think that i could ever harbor any hard feelings towards the person who guided me. I believe that everyone has a choice and that choice is theres to make. in most cases its pretty clear cut, theres a line and a choice can be made. This was completely different. I remember back to my first time, the feeling to procede was overwhelming. It was literally like connecting with a part of myself that i had lost and once id felt that nothing could have stopped me from proceeding. it has definitely been a changing moment in my life though. But never will i blame or demonize the person who showed me the way. As difficult as it is in my life, id still thank them.
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Yes, it seems once we have made genuine contact with the experience of deep meditation (AKA the holy spirit) the "ghost" is out of the box, and there is no going back.
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Nice to hear from you and see you here, Cal. In case most do not notice, there is a sort of energy on this website. Some might feel it.
One has to finished one's duty but one can also be a contemplative. I can understand your dis-associative state but like all things , it takes time and don't hang on to it. Glad to see you here again.
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Hi Cal - nice to hear from you again.
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Glad to see you back, Cal. I was beginning to miss your rant. LOL
Could you tell us why you stopped meditating in more detail? What was it that put you off?
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Yes, it seems once we have made genuine contact with the experience of deep meditation (AKA the holy spirit) the "ghost" is out of the box, and there is no going back.
It's quite a blessing, one ive taken for granted. I'm quite thankful this is the case.
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Nice to hear from you and see you here, Cal. In case most do not notice, there is a sort of energy on this website. Some might feel it.
One has to finished one's duty but one can also be a contemplative. I can understand your dis-associative state but like all things , it takes time and don't hang on to it. Glad to see you here again.
Hi Sam, I'd have to say I agree with both. there were times, and still are times that I feel a connection, especially when i read here. Duty, that was something i was struggling with. I had or may even have lost "purpose". I was saying something about it previously, that thoughts to the future, its hard to think of anything concrete, as i really dont want anything. Most people look forward to things that they want and they shape their actions and decisions around thier desires. Aside from impulse in the moment i dont see any point to wanting or working towards a goal, as theyre pointless, at least in a materialistic sense. This is something im working on fixing, because my family requires this of me.
Its good to hear from you =)
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Glad to see you back, Cal. I was beginning to miss your rant. LOL
Could you tell us why you stopped meditating in more detail? What was it that put you off?
Michel! Hey there o/ i missed you too =).
This is not an easy question to answer. Also, one that im reluctant to give serious thought to...I do know why though. I had become dis-associated from everything, friends, family, society...myself. I still am, but to a lesser degree. There were times, after deep meditation that id walk outdoors at night and i couldnt discern objects due to the amount of static/snow in my view. Dreams...lucid dreams. They became intense and required a level of equanimity i wasnt willing to commit to. I fought taking that leap because it meant a complete seperation from what i knew, to what i had found. ive heard the term dual-mind used before. I recognized a conciousness within myself, and was able to seperate it. i spent most of the day absorbed, and could not focus any attention to what the others around me needed. I neglected them. theres so much more to this, and the reasoning, more specific events and experiences, its just something im struggling with right now, and would like to avoid contemplating them, as i feel they are better left alone right now. Maybe at some point ill be able to share them, just right now id like to keep away from them.
But Michel! im looking forward to your thoughts and approach on things, hahaha its something i have truly missed!! ;D
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Hi Cal - nice to hear from you again.
Hi Zack o/ im glad to see youre here as well =)
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One thing to keep in mind, equanimity is often mistaken for a Dissociative disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_disorder); and the Psychiatric Association has clearly shown they have no understanding of the religious experience, so they are likely to misinterpret equanimity and the non-dual aspect of the religious experience as a Dissociative disorder.
Dissociative disorders (DD) are conditions that involve disruptions or breakdowns of memory, awareness, identity, or perception. People with dissociative disorders use dissociation, a defense mechanism, pathologically and involuntarily. Dissociative disorders are thought to primarily be caused by psychological trauma.
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Glad to see you back, Cal. I was beginning to miss your rant. LOL
Could you tell us why you stopped meditating in more detail? What was it that put you off?
Michel! Hey there o/ i missed you too =).
This is not an easy question to answer. Also, one that im reluctant to give serious thought to...I do know why though. I had become dis-associated from everything, friends, family, society...myself. I still am, but to a lesser degree. There were times, after deep meditation that id walk outdoors at night and i couldnt discern objects due to the amount of static/snow in my view. Dreams...lucid dreams. They became intense and required a level of equanimity i wasnt willing to commit to. I fought taking that leap because it meant a complete seperation from what i knew, to what i had found. ive heard the term dual-mind used before. I recognized a conciousness within myself, and was able to seperate it. i spent most of the day absorbed, and could not focus any attention to what the others around me needed. I neglected them. theres so much more to this, and the reasoning, more specific events and experiences, its just something im struggling with right now, and would like to avoid contemplating them, as i feel they are better left alone right now. Maybe at some point ill be able to share them, just right now id like to keep away from them.
Wow, thanks for sharing. But stay away from the psychiatists, LOL. They'd have a field day with you.
But Michel! im looking forward to your thoughts and approach on things, hahaha its something i have truly missed!! ;D
I too look forward to reading your future posts. I learn a lot from them.
Any news from Jhanon?
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Wow, thanks for sharing. But stay away from the psychiatists, LOL. They'd have a field day with you.
I concur
Any news from Jhanon?
I have heard nothing. We can only hope that he has gone off into the wilderness to find liberation and enlightenment.
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He just logged in today. He will post when he is ready to post. I think he is fine.
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Meditation sessions have been very painful. Making the choice to be "half in and half out" definitely comes with a consequence. I am able to meditate to the second jhana, I slow my mind, but the transition to the third is met with such a burning that i cannot move any further. My whole body burns, i sweat, and the distraction is too much to proceed. I have stuck with it, however, i generally cannot more than 30-45 minutes. Ill lay there, just burning, telling myself that i must endure this.
I believe this is a product of not living a fully self aware life. I have allowed myself to "think" more than i should be. I interact on a social level, or try to, and set daily goals and let myself be apart of more worldly things. I visit this forum daily, and have thought to begin reading into the 5 aggregates again, as I feel this is the correct coarse to solve this. I hesitate still, perhaps its like Sam said, its fear. It is fear.
Has this been something that has been discussed before? I understand the burning, but the intensity I do not. I read here that the burning is the dropping away of fetters, desire, is it that I have so many that it would be this intense? I know the path that i am walking is not the correct path, not a path to enlightenment. Has this time span been a dark night of the soul? Is it something that I continue to endure? So many questions, all selfish in nature.
One of the most notable things in my recent meditations is the moving of energy through chakra points. I am no longer able to move, or feel anything from my heart chakra. The other points are noticable to me, not as they were, slightly less. I have noticed that I care alot less about everything. Not like i was, its not equanimity, its selfishness, I just dont care about others around me. I write this in honesty as I do want it to change.
Perhaps there is something I can read, or specific actions i can take?
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Meditation sessions have been very painful. Making the choice to be "half in and half out" definitely comes with a consequence. I am able to meditate to the second jhana, I slow my mind, but the transition to the third is met with such a burning that i cannot move any further. My whole body burns, i sweat, and the distraction is too much to proceed. I have stuck with it, however, i generally cannot more than 30-45 minutes. Ill lay there, just burning, telling myself that i must endure this.
Yes, I recall when I first encountered this stage I was attending a 10-day meditation retreat, and it was about mid-retreat when it arose. I thought I would go screaming mad. I just sat with it, hour after hour, day after day, until it gave way to a flood of blissful charisms.
I have been calling this phase depth in meditation the 'hypersensitive phase." I know from experience that this phase precedes the 3rd jhana. So, if one can sit through it, then the pay-off is pretty impressive ecstasy, which is accompanied by a very durable level of equanimity; and it takes deep equanimity to get through the hypersensitive phase.
The hypersensitive phase is so difficult to get through that it is understandable why most contemplatives never get through it, and tend to avoid it with the erroneous belief that it is an evil place.
I believe this is a product of not living a fully self aware life. I have allowed myself to "think" more than i should be. I interact on a social level, or try to, and set daily goals and let myself be apart of more worldly things. I visit this forum daily, and have thought to begin reading into the 5 aggregates again, as I feel this is the correct coarse to solve this. I hesitate still, perhaps its like Sam said, its fear. It is fear.
This is a good assessment. When we withdraw from the sensory world, we develop equanimity, and are not so attached to the sensory domain.
The cause of this hypersensitive phase of meditation is due to the mind misinterpreting the charisms as sensory input.
Has this been something that has been discussed before? I understand the burning, but the intensity I do not. I read here that the burning is the dropping away of fetters, desire, is it that I have so many that it would be this intense? I know the path that i am walking is not the correct path, not a path to enlightenment. Has this time span been a dark night of the soul? Is it something that I continue to endure? So many questions, all selfish in nature.
Yes, we have discussed it before here Dark Night of the Soul (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,104.msg3201.html#msg3201)
One of the most notable things in my recent meditations is the moving of energy through chakra points. I am no longer able to move, or feel anything from my heart chakra. The other points are noticable to me, not as they were, slightly less. I have noticed that I care alot less about everything. Not like i was, its not equanimity, its selfishness, I just dont care about others around me. I write this in honesty as I do want it to change.
Perhaps there is something I can read, or specific actions i can take?
This is all part of the transformation.
Please note: that I have started having power source problems with my inverter, so it is now limiting my time on line for WIFI camping from my van. So, if I am not available as much, or do not respond to all inquires, then this is why. I will have to sign off now, to charge my batteries after sun rise.
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The cause of this hypersensitive phase of meditation is due to the mind misinterpreting the charisms as sensory input.
What do you mean, Jhananda? Could you elaborate, please?
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Meditation sessions have been very painful. Making the choice to be "half in and half out" definitely comes with a consequence. I am able to meditate to the second jhana, I slow my mind, but the transition to the third is met with such a burning that i cannot move any further. My whole body burns, i sweat, and the distraction is too much to proceed. I have stuck with it, however, i generally cannot more than 30-45 minutes. Ill lay there, just burning, telling myself that i must endure this.
Yes, I recall when I first encountered this stage I was attending a 10-day meditation retreat, and it was about mid-retreat when it arose. I thought I would go screaming mad. I just sat with it, hour after hour, day after day, until it gave way to a flood of blissful charisms.
I have been calling this phase depth in meditation the 'hypersensitive phase." I know from experience that this phase precedes the 3rd jhana. So, if one can sit through it, then the pay-off is pretty impressive ecstasy, which is accompanied by a very durable level of equanimity; and it takes deep equanimity to get through the hypersensitive phase.
The hypersensitive phase is so difficult to get through that it is understandable why most contemplatives never get through it, and tend to avoid it with the erroneous belief that it is an evil place.
I recall going through this once before, after my awakening. However, it was not to this degree. Perhaps I have regressed? I had read the posts from Michael hawkins and Alexander on the Dark night of the soul, and they resonated then, even more-so now. However I take a closer look at Emily and Anastasia from Alexander, and it is a mix of both of these, and not clear. The sleepnessness and restlessness from emily, and the struggle from Anastasia both resonate very loudly. The shadows in the dark, the faces, the burning, those are all very apparent as well. I feel like I am stuck in some midway point, but the answer is surrender. The audible charism is frustrating, it never leaves me, all day I hear it. It is miserable without comfort, this state......
I meditated last night again, as i do every night. The burning sensation came in waves, but it relinquished from time to time, and I was excited, but this caused regression in my session and did not further to the next stage. If right now I was to pack up and walk away, I know doubtlessly that I could navigate this. Why has it come to this choice? It has always been this choice.
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The cause of this hypersensitive phase of meditation is due to the mind misinterpreting the charisms as sensory input.
What do you mean, Jhananda? Could you elaborate, please?
The body/mind believes the aura/spirit is an affliction. This happens because of the lack of equanimity. Basically at the transition from the 2nd to 3rd jhana your mind has been stilled and thus seperated allowing equanimity. Its partly why I am so confused. I have experienced this many many times, its clear to me, the transition is apparent and I recognize it.
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The cause of this hypersensitive phase of meditation is due to the mind misinterpreting the charisms as sensory input.
What do you mean, Jhananda? Could you elaborate, please?
Sure, first to experience the charisms we must become very sensitive, which is part of why we become hypersenstive after stilling the mind. But, then the charisms begin to arise, but the mind is habituated to sensory experience, so it does not know how to interpret the charisms, so we need to quiet the mind more, which is called 'equanimity.' Then, the mind no longer tries to interpret the charisms, and we begin to witness them as raw input.
I recall going through this once before, after my awakening. However, it was not to this degree. Perhaps I have regressed? I had read the posts from Michael hawkins and Alexander on the Dark night of the soul, and they resonated then, even more-so now. However I take a closer look at Emily and Anastasia from Alexander, and it is a mix of both of these, and not clear. The sleepnessness and restlessness from emily, and the struggle from Anastasia both resonate very loudly. The shadows in the dark, the faces, the burning, those are all very apparent as well. I feel like I am stuck in some midway point, but the answer is surrender. The audible charism is frustrating, it never leaves me, all day I hear it. It is miserable without comfort, this state......
The challenge here is to learn to take comfort in the charisms, because if we resist them, then we only suffer. So, yes it is surrender to the charisms, but more so, we take refuge in them.
I meditated last night again, as i do every night. The burning sensation came in waves, but it relinquished from time to time, and I was excited, but this caused regression in my session and did not further to the next stage. If right now I was to pack up and walk away, I know doubtlessly that I could navigate this. Why has it come to this choice? It has always been this choice.
Yes, in the beginning we become excited about the charisms, which drives them away. Eventually we become so used to them that we can witness them without disturbance of the mind.
The body/mind believes the aura/spirit is an affliction. This happens because of the lack of equanimity. Basically at the transition from the 2nd to 3rd jhana your mind has been stilled and thus seperated allowing equanimity. Its partly why I am so confused. I have experienced this many many times, its clear to me, the transition is apparent and I recognize it.
Yes, and we will go round, and round, and round until we learn to take comfort in the charisms.
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I feel as though im plagued by something. I meditate 2x per day for an hour or more. Sometimes i feel as though im pinned down, like im falling, theres burning, darkness everywhere. Faces appear, i see them but let them pass. There has been little joy or bliss in my sessions. Its like there is an external source in my mind. On the good sessions ill progress but ill always regress to the same thing. ill try and describe it. If one was to take a piece of chalk on a chalkboard and rapidly draw lines back and forth in random directions, this is like what happens in my mind. Some thoughts will be present, but they fall away and this happens.
I just want my refuge back.
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I experience the same thing, Cal. I will meditate to the depth of the 3rd jhana, but the bliss component will not be there. It is like there is an underlying root of problems. If from here I "let go," my mind wanders and I fall back into the 2nd jhana. If I fight with it and apply effort, the silent mind will remain, but the emotional state becomes unbearable.
Relevant John of the Cross quotes?
There is another reason why the soul has walked securely in this darkness, and this is because it has been suffering; for the road of suffering is more secure and even more profitable than that of fruition and action: first, because in suffering the strength of God is added to that of man, while in action and fruition the soul is practising its own weaknesses and imperfections; and second, because in suffering the soul continues to practise and acquire the virtues and become purer, wiser and more cautious.
Thus the soul which once stood without at the gates of the palace of God like Mardochai weeping in the streets of Susan because his life was threatened, clothed with sackcloth and refusing the garments which Esther sent him, unrewarded for his faithful service in defending the king's honour and life, finds, also, like Mardochai, all its trials and service rewarded in one day. It is not only admitted within the palace and stands in royal robes before the king, but has also a diadem on its head, and in its hand a sceptre, and sitting on the royal throne with the king's signet on its finger, symbols of its power in the kingdom of the Bridegroom.
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I experience the same thing, Cal. I will meditate to the depth of the 3rd jhana, but the bliss component will not be there. It is like there is an underlying root of problems. If from here I "let go," my mind wanders and I fall back into the 2nd jhana. If I fight with it and apply effort, the silent mind will remain, but the emotional state becomes unbearable.
Relevant John of the Cross quotes?
There is another reason why the soul has walked securely in this darkness, and this is because it has been suffering; for the road of suffering is more secure and even more profitable than that of fruition and action: first, because in suffering the strength of God is added to that of man, while in action and fruition the soul is practising its own weaknesses and imperfections; and second, because in suffering the soul continues to practise and acquire the virtues and become purer, wiser and more cautious.
Thus the soul which once stood without at the gates of the palace of God like Mardochai weeping in the streets of Susan because his life was threatened, clothed with sackcloth and refusing the garments which Esther sent him, unrewarded for his faithful service in defending the king's honour and life, finds, also, like Mardochai, all its trials and service rewarded in one day. It is not only admitted within the palace and stands in royal robes before the king, but has also a diadem on its head, and in its hand a sceptre, and sitting on the royal throne with the king's signet on its finger, symbols of its power in the kingdom of the Bridegroom.
Thank you Alexander. It is heartening to know that other mystics have traversed this coarse, and that there is indeed a "light at the end of the tunnel". Endurance, volition, these are words that come to mind.
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I feel as though im plagued by something. I meditate 2x per day for an hour or more. Sometimes i feel as though im pinned down, like im falling, theres burning, darkness everywhere. Faces appear, i see them but let them pass. There has been little joy or bliss in my sessions. Its like there is an external source in my mind. On the good sessions ill progress but ill always regress to the same thing. ill try and describe it. If one was to take a piece of chalk on a chalkboard and rapidly draw lines back and forth in random directions, this is like what happens in my mind. Some thoughts will be present, but they fall away and this happens.
I just want my refuge back.
I am reminded of John of the Cross when he used the term 'aridity' in meditation. Aridity has arisen for you. It just takes discipline and perseverance for the moist bliss to return to you again.
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Over the course of the past 2 years or so I ve had some fantastic and bizarre experiences. I've went from a socially oriented individual, to a deeply religious one. From an ignorant fool who thought he knew everything, to a humbled one who realized he knew nothing. I've let go many parts of my former self, yet there is more that remains to be unburdened. All of this started from a facebook post from a member of this forum. Something written there spoke to my inner being and man did my inner being speak to me. It told me to find out, to learn, so here I am. That was the night of my awakening.
Before going on my foolish charade that I could ignore the charisms, I had feelings at times that i wasnt alone. Like something hovering over my shoulder. These feeling would come to me via the audio charism. I would get a higher pitched noise along with the constant audio charism. No matter what "distraction" I was employing at the time, this particular tone would get hold of my attention, and I would observe. I often thought of this as a visitor. The feeling that came with them, over the body, they differed though. So in time, I thought of them as different visitors. I began to recognize them as "individuals". I am unsure if this is significant, however, the events continue even till this day. Now I bring this up due to the specific "feeling" that would accompany the higher pitched audio charism. This is what Im now using to differentiate from the other. In the static of my vision field, while absorbed, outside of conventional meditative states, accompanied by this feeling, I become aware that i can visually see what is there. Heres the thing though, I ignore it. I do not look as I do not wish to see, yet I still feel. I will narrow my visual field, look at the ground, but dammit I know theyre there. Now this is not all the time, and I'm not "afraid of the dark". I feel as though if I were to observe where I know they are, that I would cope with this through absorbing further. Yet these things do not "pique" my curiosity, I do not want them to be there. I may view them in meditative states, they may pin me down or hold my hand, but where may I "brake" in a waking state? It's funny, because I am not afraid, and yet I refuse to acknowledge them, I would prefer to move slower.
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Over the course of the past 2 years or so I ve had some fantastic and bizarre experiences. I've went from a socially oriented individual, to a deeply religious one. From an ignorant fool who thought he knew everything, to a humbled one who realized he knew nothing. I've let go many parts of my former self, yet there is more that remains to be unburdened. All of this started from a facebook post from a member of this forum. Something written there spoke to my inner being and man did my inner being speak to me. It told me to find out, to learn, so here I am. That was the night of my awakening.
In the course of life I rarely meet people who have as much attainment as most of the contributing members of this forum do. Most of the people I meet are completely oblivious of the spiritual dimensions, have no belief, faith, interest, or experience with it. I do meet a fair number of devout, who have no experience with the spiritual dimensions, but have a deep belief, and faith in it; however, they tend to be profoundly deluded and deeply afraid of the spiritual dimensions.
The new-agers that I meet tend to believe that they have had some experience with the spiritual dimensions, and believe they have figured it all out, but in most cases their experiences are more often than not delusional, and their literature is often written with great authority, but is, nonetheless, in most cases fiction.
After more than 40 years with the charisms I am still learning about the seemingly infinite aspects of the spiritual dimensions, so I may value the community of mystics on this forum more than anyone else here, because I learn a great deal from most of you, and I greatly appreciate the company of fellow mystics, like you all, because otherwise I feel profoundly alienated by the rest of the world, with whom I can only have very superficial conversations.
Before going on my foolish charade that I could ignore the charisms, I had feelings at times that i wasnt alone. Like something hovering over my shoulder. These feeling would come to me via the audio charism. I would get a higher pitched noise along with the constant audio charism. No matter what "distraction" I was employing at the time, this particular tone would get hold of my attention, and I would observe. I often thought of this as a visitor. The feeling that came with them, over the body, they differed though. So in time, I thought of them as different visitors. I began to recognize them as "individuals". I am unsure if this is significant, however, the events continue even till this day. Now I bring this up due to the specific "feeling" that would accompany the higher pitched audio charism. This is what Im now using to differentiate from the other. In the static of my vision field, while absorbed, outside of conventional meditative states, accompanied by this feeling, I become aware that i can visually see what is there. Heres the thing though, I ignore it. I do not look as I do not wish to see, yet I still feel. I will narrow my visual field, look at the ground, but dammit I know theyre there. Now this is not all the time, and I'm not "afraid of the dark". I feel as though if I were to observe where I know they are, that I would cope with this through absorbing further. Yet these things do not "pique" my curiosity, I do not want them to be there. I may view them in meditative states, they may pin me down or hold my hand, but where may I "brake" in a waking state? It's funny, because I am not afraid, and yet I refuse to acknowledge them, I would prefer to move slower.
When I developed depth in meditation, which was accompanied with the charisms 24-7 more than 40 years ago, I found that we are immersed in a sea of immaterial beings, some benevolent, and some evil. At that time I found that they are all around us all of the time. So, it is not surprising, Cal, that you are feeling, but not seeing, immaterial beings near you. You will get used to it.
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... I may value the community of mystics on this forum more than anyone else here, because I learn a great deal from most of you, and I greatly appreciate the company of fellow mystics, like you all, because otherwise I feel profoundly alienated by the rest of the world, with whom I can only have very superficial conversations with.
Excuse me for dropping in. I've wanted to ask you this question for a while: Isn't an enlightened person supposed to be beyond social needs?
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... I may value the community of mystics on this forum more than anyone else here, because I learn a great deal from most of you, and I greatly appreciate the company of fellow mystics, like you all, because otherwise I feel profoundly alienated by the rest of the world, with whom I can only have very superficial conversations with.
Excuse me for dropping in. I've wanted to ask you this question for a while: Isn't an enlightened person supposed to be beyond social needs?
Much like the tides of the ocean, one Ebbs and Flows. From saturation to deep despair. This is also outlined in the Discourse of the Buddha, as well as highlighted in the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ. While one may be a spiritual master, they are also human. We have senior members like Sam, who are stoic and devoted, yet cheerful. He will tell stories at times of a cheerful social interaction. Jhananada who is almost completely without emotion in his words, to the man who reflects upon the emotion present. And yet there is deep compassion readily obvious in his action. Read their stories. You'll find that it has been a life long search for understanding. I recognize both as spiritual masters.
I cannot answer if an enlightened person is supposed to be beyond social needs. But i can tell you the Sangha of the Buddha was quite large, and Jesus had his apostles. I commend your use of critical thinking.
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Excuse me for dropping in. I've wanted to ask you this question for a while: Isn't an enlightened person supposed to be beyond social needs?
Do you mean someone who can solo camp in the wilderness for years and not get lonely? Or, someone who can live in the world alienated for decades and not get lonely?
Welcome, Anon. We value critical inquiry here, so you are in good company.
Thank-you, Cal. I look forward to meditating deeply with you soon.
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Thank you for your responses Cal and Jhanananda. Let me explain my comment. I get the impression from the scattered information I've received about enlightenment that the enlightened person is supposed to be beyond social needs. I don't know a canonical source for this belief. I refrained from posting on this board because I thought doing so would be indulging my social desires, which is contrary to enlightenment. Yet, I still lurked on this board because I have social needs. I also doubted that Jhanananda was enlightened, or at least fully enlightened, because it seemed the board fulfilled a social need for him. This comment by Jhanananda also seems to imply he has social needs:
"...I greatly appreciate the company of fellow mystics, like you all, because otherwise I feel profoundly alienated by the rest of the world, with whom I can only have very superficial conversations with."
If someone can camp solo or live alienated for years without getting lonely, but later manifests social needs, he isn’t fully enlightened according to my assumption.
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I can relate to your principle of lurking, Anon, as I formerly was the same. It is also best for one's spiritual health to keep silent, and try to develop discrimination. That was how I got out of the jungle of wrong ideas that everyone else is trapped in. At the same time, there comes a day when those who seek find, and for those who knock the door is opened to them.
In regard to social needs, I found as the fetters diminished, one of the things I needed significantly less of was social interaction. The fulfillment I needed I found within myself. I found I could no longer experience anger, sadness, or loneliness anymore - at least not in the way I did before.
One paradox of the inner life is it is simultaneously solitary and social. Much of the work you are doing is by yourself. At the same time, being able to dialogue with others is extremely helpful. Other people can support you. For example, without them you might be stuck at one stage of the inner life for 10 or 20 years, whereas with them you can count on help to keep moving forward.
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I understand, Anon. I also understood all that was behind the question when you asked it. Context is important and I may have missed a few steps in my earlier reply. The question that comes to mind now is "Do you want to learn why the question you asked is abstract?" As the answer to this could be quite in-depth. It would most certainly answer your underlining question.
Pain and doubt, searches, self-aware. If we get to the "root", we can unravel.
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If someone can camp solo or live alienated for years without getting lonely, but later manifests social needs, he isn’t fully enlightened according to my assumption.
Interesting hypothesis. So, which "enlightened being" did not have "social needs?" I would expect that any enlightened being, who did not have "social needs" would most likely have never been recorded in history.
Otherwise we go by Siddhartha Gautama's and Patanjali's definition of enlightenment, which is essentially being free of addictive behavior, and manifesting the superior fruit of the contemplative life.
I look forward to reading what the others have to say on this topic.
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I just want to say that I don't think we should see judging Jeffrey on his enlightenment based on his "need" for social interaction. If he fully lived his dissociation from society, we wouldn't even have this forum to ask questions, to find a way out ourselves. Social interaction would be necessary, enlightenened or not, as Jeffrey pointed out, to even "exist" in history. And in that social interaction, I doubt he has found many if any to truly express his depth, or even a fraction of it. And personally I think we all feel in certain ways the same. So enlightened or not, I think it is an extremely sad and depressing situation to be amongst billions of your own kind, yet finding simple communication or expression to be to ones own detriment.
Much love Jeffrey and all
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I tend to avoid all human contact if possible. That in itself is an impossibility. No one could disassociate from any human interaction, especially when one is living in a concrete jungle. Not every one can live in seclusion. I wish I could. People like us are very sensitive. I don't want to feel the anger, jealousy and etc of others. It makes me feel horrible. Even if we disassociate, how can we guide others? Even in the internet age of now, it is still interaction of the minds. We can't free ourselves from social needs even if we want to. Our basic needs of food and basic necessity have to be purchased which requires interaction. There is no escaping it.
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Thank-you, Sam, and rougeleader115, for expressing your points of view on this subject. Sometimes I find it necessary to remind people that I was not born of a virgin, therefore I do not walk on water.
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To be more explicit, when I wrote 'social needs' I didn't mean 'social needs as a means of attaining bodily requisites,' but 'social needs due to psychological or emotional reasons.' Not having social needs, in the sense I'm concerned with, doesn't entail not interacting socially. I could imagine an enlightened being with no social needs who teaches others and performs miracles because this is simply part of the nature of being enlightened. Though on my assumption that eliminating social needs is necessary for enlightenment, this being would never seek sympathy from others because he felt alienated, or want to pass on his knowledge out of a personal desire to benefit humanity.
If you could live in a place with no other people or nonhuman companions, but could otherwise have all your physical necessities, under the condition that you never had a thought about another person or organism, would you? This seems like one of the worst forms of torture imaginable.
"Do you want to learn why the question you asked is abstract?"
Yes, please go on Cal.
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To be more explicit, when I wrote 'social needs' I didn't mean 'social needs as a means of attaining bodily requisites,' but 'social needs due to psychological or emotional reasons.' Not having social needs, in the sense I'm concerned with, doesn't entail not interacting socially. I could imagine an enlightened being with no social needs who teaches others and performs miracles because this is simply part of the nature of being enlightened. Though on my assumption that eliminating social needs is necessary for enlightenment, this being would never seek sympathy from others because he felt alienated, or want to pass on his knowledge out of a personal desire to benefit humanity.
If you could live in a place with no other people or nonhuman companions, but could otherwise have all your physical necessities, under the condition that you never had a thought about another person or organism, would you? This seems like one of the worst forms of torture imaginable.
One would certainly feel alienated in a sense if there was no one there to understand what you teach or experience. I cannot remember where I read it from, but it was from a yogi who said that as one reaches higher insights into nature, there tends to be fewer people at the peak of the mountain and one certainly starts to be more 'lonely'. Furthermore, the majority of people either do not take up any form of contemplative practice and do not experience it, and on top of that, carry out actions that actively marginalize the people who do so, such as the recent laws against the homeless. It is of no wonder to feel like the others do not understand and you find it difficult to teach.
I felt a frustration of a more minor scale when I was young (I'm not enlightened though)... I had an insight when I was a toddler (I was meditating for many hours on my own unknowingly) and I realized many people were like zombies controlled by their habits and afflictions. Being just a child, whenever I brought these things up, people around me would think that this child was simply weird. I certainly felt alienated in that way, because no one could understand what I said. My parents even thought I was abnormal.
I think we tend to project supernatural traits on enlightened people, but perhaps we have to remember that even the Buddha led a most ordinary lifestyle (apart from his siddhis of course), along with his sangha which he also felt saddened for, during the suicide of two of his eminent disciples. Of course, some might not recognize the Mahayana texts, but I really like the "Diamond Sutta" because the first text describes how the Buddha lives a perfectly ordinary and unspectacular life - Begging for alms, washing his feet, teaching, then meditating, etc. None of that 'fantastic' stuff.
I don't think being enlightened entails you to become a psychopath, where you are unable to feel empathy or emotions. Instead, it should make you more compassionate, since one would expect an enlightened being to be well-culminated in the four divine abodes as well. How can compassion arise if one does not feel anything? Perhaps we might need to explore that too... Also, we often see saints weeping from contact with the divine.
You mentioned psychological or emotional reasons - But I find that they might all be part of the same thing together with physical needs. They are all within the five aggregates. It is not that once you detach from the aggregate of form, the body ceases to exist... It is also not the case where if you detach from cognition, the thoughts cease to exist. So I think that it is the same for emotions.
In my imagination, they are like dominoes falling over and over, continuously, bringing about a chain of effects and causes. However, I think that it implies a form of mastery and the ability to be unattached to it (I might be wrong though, please correct me). So while you can see the dominoes falling over in a certain pattern, you can choose to not be attached to it and simply flow along with it, and if needed, the trajectory is changed. Because if it was any other case, I cannot see how a being will be able to continue even existing physically in the world... I'd love it if anyone more qualified could input on that too, since I certainly do not have high attainments.
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... I may value the community of mystics on this forum more than anyone else here, because I learn a great deal from most of you, and I greatly appreciate the company of fellow mystics, like you all, because otherwise I feel profoundly alienated by the rest of the world, with whom I can only have very superficial conversations with.
Excuse me for dropping in. I've wanted to ask you this question for a while: Isn't an enlightened person supposed to be beyond social needs?
For one to understand there must first be a reflection of oneself in the words being received. If we look within the context of perception, admittedly, that your own assumption of one to be enlightened, is one absent of social need. I could refer back to Jhananada's correct definition of enlightenment, however, I think in doing so it does all of us here a great disservice. As if you wish to understand on a spiritual level, which enlightenment certainly is, then we must not talk at your "person", but to you. So quite simply, I will not attempt change your perception on Jhananada. That is something you must decide on your own. But I will extend my hand to you, and not speak at your person.
All I ask from you, is that you employ self-awareness.
When I spoke of one ebbing and flowing I spoke of the spiritual and the man. They are separate, yet the same. One houses the spirit within the body. Emotions, they arise and fall away, impermanent, they ebb and flow. With constant self-awareness we can see this. Like an observer to the movie of life. There comes a point when a choice can be made, to grasp or relinquish. The emotions of a man, deep seated, are never removed. They simply arise and fall away. It is in this choice (to grasp or relinquish) that we are free of our suffering. The only concrete determination of this is made from within. Has one relinquished, or grasped? Is one aware, or un-aware of the emotion present. Does one act, or observe? One can choose to reflect upon, or one can choose to let them fall. This is what is written in the discourse. Now since we are "defining" enlightenment, let us first define the words I've written. "Choice" implies a selection of 2 or more. By "what" do we choose, is what I wish to define. By what does one choose to grasp or relinquish? In understanding of this, we can continue.
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I could imagine an enlightened being with no social needs who teaches others and performs miracles because this is simply part of the nature of being enlightened. Though on my assumption that eliminating social needs is necessary for enlightenment, this being would never seek sympathy from others because he felt alienated, or want to pass on his knowledge out of a personal desire to benefit humanity.
Speaking for myself, the Pali Canon have specifically state about the fetters. An enlightened being will not have any fetters, wherefore comes the attachment? Seeking sympathy from others, wanting others to acknowledge your very existence and etc is a form of desire. The 4 Noble Truth have a way out for that. An enlightened being have already figured out the 4 Noble Truth and have practiced it. I do not believed that there is any miracles in the biblical, Islamic and some stories told in some erroneous Buddhist literature. We need to employ our critical thinking and eliminate the nonsense.
If you could live in a place with no other people or nonhuman companions, but could otherwise have all your physical necessities, under the condition that you never had a thought about another person or organism, would you? This seems like one of the worst forms of torture imaginable.
That is virtually impossible because our body contains bacteria on the skin and in the gut. Without them death will follow. Give a realistic scenario. Torture or not, it depends on one's perception. One man's meat is another man's poison.
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The scenario isn't supposed to be realistic. It's a thought experiment to determine if we do need others for more than bodily survival. I didn't say you can't have bacteria, or whatever other organism you need to live. I said you can't have 'nonhuman companions,' like a pet dog for instance. This is to eliminate any personal relationships. I said you can't think about other forms of life, because if you can't think about them this rules out any possible attachment to them. You can't reminisce about your family for example, or think of pleasant animals. However, maybe you'll need to think about plants, for instance, as you prepare your food and medicine. So that would be allowed. As I said before, you're granted everything you need for your body's survival, and you can meditate however you want and whenever you want. Suppose that God or the gods set this up for you, but then they too subsequently disappear so you can never have a relationship with them. Would anyone here immediately accept such an arrangement if it were possible?
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Anon, the senior members here: Sam, Michel, Cal, bodhimind, rougeleader115, Alexander, etc.; have all provided ample cogent, and logically true arguments that are supported by their personal experiences in deep meditation. This entire forum is for those who have developed the art of deep meditation.
I do not market myself as a worshipful deity, nor do I market miracles; however, we all manifest one or more the superior fruit of the contemplative life, and we use them as both evidence for, and our vehicle to, liberation from neuroses, and enlightenment; nonetheless, we all have feet of clay.
Most of my life in the last 15 years has been in solitude, even if most of my life in the last 10 years has been within a small town. I keep to myself; however, I do have some surplus or waste food, which I like to make available to wildlife, such as birds, squires, rabbits, javalina, coyotes, and various large cats. Sometimes some of those animals take refuge with me, and even become friends, and companions.
I have been lucid 24-7 for over 40 year as a consequence of leading a fruitful contemplative life. This means I traverse the various layers of the immaterial domains on a daily basis. At no point in those travels out-of-body have I ever found a place in the universe that does not have beings. While the physical universe has places that are too hostile to support life; nonetheless, I have found immaterial life wherever I go in the immaterial domains.
I do have one frustration. Everywhere I look in this world I see suffering beings. I have examined history and culture in depth and have found evidence of coruption in every civilization. I have examined religion in depth, and found it to corrupted; and every religion has evidence of marginalizing its mystics. I am encouraged when I meet people who have unpacked their belief systems enough to question mainstream religion, and take up a contemplative life; however, I am frustrated to find that of those who have taken up a contemplative life, few make the necessary effort to cultivate the superior fruit, and they all have an excuse for why.
So, Anon, if you are looking for miracles, or someone to worship, then you are in the wrong place. However, if you are interested in developing a fruitful contemplative life, or at least support a community that is, then you are in the right place.
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Well, I think I will consider time well served if I attend to things that are possible then the impossible. Do not want to waste that time.
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All right Jhanananda, I'm content to leave the discussion as it is.
By what does one choose to grasp or relinquish? In understanding of this, we can continue.
I can name it, but not tell you much more about it. I do meditate upon your question however.
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I think the word "enlightenment" is a loaded term, but one of the most important points that Jhanananda tries to get across is that it isn't an event or a static state, but a lifestyle that one must maintain. It seems clear to me he is at the forefront of that lifestyle. This post (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,41.msg251.html#msg251) really hit me with both the depth of humanity and height of spiritual attainment he has reached.
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I've begun thinking of reality in "layers". I've become aware that as something new is realized, another layer is peeled away . I am only sure when the layer was formed, even what it entailed, after it has been peeled away, and I can observe it. My thoughts lately have been of a seemingly "dark" nature. But the more I entertain these "dark" thoughts, the more apparent it becomes that this is actually another layer being peeled away. I'm hesitant to share, as there are many here that are lurkers, and I do not wish to give wrong impression. However, there are some of us here that travel this same path and I think I can help them, and they me.
A couple of months ago my I spent some time following the outline in the Discerning attainment thread by Alexander, and posted my thoughts there in. I concluded it with the verdict that "this place is hell". I did not realize then how true that statement was, at least, not fully. See, the perspective I was looking through then, was one of a more "grounded" nature, one more centered on people and fabricated reality. In short, I left demons and the like completely out of it. Much has changed, or rather, another layer has been peeled away. I'm starting to see that demons and the like, provide a truer test for one deeply on the path. The way that they could instill fear, or even suffering within the body could provide no better test, at least at this point of my understanding, in which one could be judged. That soul shattering "growl' as they come close. Or the intensity in which one's body can "burn". The hijacking of the senses to engulf one into primal reaction. In reflection, I look back to my adolescent years. Driven by emotion and reaction to, if I had encountered some of these experiences then, I would have gone mad and commited suicide. I wouldnt have been ready for them then. Which leads me to believe that I am ready for them now. All encounters to the above I have met first with resistance, then submission to resistance, and then endurance. Right or wrong, I have not come to that conclusion yet. However, I think in realizing that they can provide a benefit, I can "observe". And my past experience tells me that when I can observe, equanimity towards has been established, and the layer is peeled away.
Bodhimind, I think back to a talk we had recently where I said I could not subscribe to the belief in possession. I think some on that now, what it entailed, a girl who needed 4 men to restrain her, also to the Runner's high discussion where we talked about muscles bypassing the "safety mechanism". I have some interesting thoughts on this matter, however, I'm going to hold them for now, as I'd like to spend some more time on them.
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The difficulties that arise from learning deep meditation necessitate developing extreme equanimity. So, friends, focus upon stilling the mind, and developing equanimity, because you are going to need it if you are headed to the deep meditation experience.
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Last night I had a dream that I was sleeping. I was a child, I could tell that the setting was back where I lived when I was 12. Oddly, my little brother, who would have been 8 at the time, was sleeping in the same bed. It was a very lucid dream. I know it was only partly a dream because it felt like I was OOB, meaning what I felt in the dream, I also distinctly felt it in my body. I felt as though I was meditating deeply, and kundalini would come and go. In between the kundalini I would cry out in fear, and it took me some time to figure out why, or at least what I thought was "why". So Kundalini would come and pass, I would cry out in fear, meditate and be annihilated by kundalini again. The setting, with my brother, was the happiest time of my remembered life. Although, I didnt realize that until it was the setting of this dream. Anyway, I kept waking him up in the dream, oddly I thought to turn to a cigarette for comfort, this is interesting that I would think think this, even more-so that I observed myself thinking this. I have never consciously thought this, so I think I may be working towards dropping this as well. I looked out the window in this dream, to see many cats in a field. Today, where I would have been looking in this dream, is filled with housing, but when i was a kid, there was an open desert field there. I dont know the meaning to either, but ill ponder them, as there is some reason I seen it in this way. I may call my brother as well, see if I can find out if he had a restless night last night.
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In my experience, Cal, OOBEs and lucid dreams can be a collection of real world content, plus present time-frame, plus time-frame of the event being witnessed, plus the psychological content of everyone present, which can make it very difficult to interpret. So, I tend to take these on face value, and hope that understanding them may come at a later date.
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In my experience, Cal, OOBEs and lucid dreams can be a collection of real world content, plus present time-frame, plus time-frame of the event being witness, plus the psychological content of everyone present, which can make it very difficult to interpret. So, I tend to take these on face value, and hope that understanding them may come at a later date.
Ultimately, I think I would want to remove the perception from these events, so that they could be raw, instead of interpreted by indiscernable input. These experiences have had the distinction to what is felt when I've jumped out of an airplane, or off a two-hundred foot cliff. Falling. Rapidly descending, although, some of the physical aspect is missing. Meaning, I do not feel that I am falling, however, I know that I am "falling". This feeling has been a subset, much like an unconscious thought. I don't know if I am trying to put my finger on anticipation or freedom/unhindered from the physical. Perhaps that is what it is, the "weight" of my physical self is not present. The best I can describe it is "unfamiliar-ly familiar".
I've thought much on the meaning of the cats in the field. I've concluded that if it was not my own interpretation, but my brothers, then I understand the meaning of it. At one point, when we were very young, his dad sought to purchase that field for my brother. There were many cats around the neighborhood. I think of some of this as his "trigger", its what he correlates that time frame with, and it makes sense to me, as this is similar to how he thinks. Also the freedom of the openness. He's feeling "boxed" in, which also makes sense. They constructed an overpass litterally in front of the house where he lives, and as mentioned before the city filled in the open fields with housing, monopoly houses at that, or manufactured homes. I believe it was his dream of a better time.
The fear from the dream was certainly my own. Although, I'm surprised I embodied it in such a way. It is helpful to have a clearer view of it, though. "Enclosed" is what i will name it. "Fear of opening the door". I'd like to limit this to what is "unknown" yet that would narrow it down too much, as I also feel it encompasses what is known, but is rejected. I'm curious how one combats such deep seated fear? In the case of cliff diving or skydiving, a clear threshold was present in which fear could be engaged and overcome. On this front, however, no such threshold exists. I feel as though if I could confront this fear, that I could either grow more afraid, or move towards its relinquish. This is where it gets complicated, at least for me, as I have not known equanimity towards what I have not observed, in real-time. At least, I could not say this honestly. I think back to when equanimity was greatest. It felt then to be sufficient for everything. I grasped at neither the negative or positive, the right or wrong, I simply observed all interaction, but then again, I was dealing with "apples", and now I deal with "pears". One thing of note in this regard it was the greatest of adversity that led me to equanimity, with meditation of course, back then. I may be overthinking this, as when a great equanimity was present, absent was emotion.
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It sounds to me like you have correctly interpreted the dream/OOBE.
For dealing with fear, we just have to keep letting go at ever deeper levels, until there is no fear. However, fear can be useful, while in a body.
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http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/commitment.htm (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/commitment.htm)
I want to know more. You and Michael did an excellent job in discussing the threshold between the mastery of the second jhana, to the door opening to the third. But i can't find anything more on the subject about whats next. In your article linked above, you describe other people who have experienced what I have felt keenly and both your article here and Michaels lead me to believe it is not the end of this. I will not turn away. I do hold my excuses of not upholding a rigorous "formal" practice, at the same time I feel that I am saturated all the same. I want to read about it. I have also made similar commitments to god and the infinite.
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Hello, Cal, thank-you for posting your inquiry here. Thank-you also for posting a link to my essay, Commitment as a Refuge, The Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhism (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/commitment.htm). A critical aspect to answer your inquiry also involves Enriching the Religious Experience (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php?topic=571.0), which is a thread on this subject. We also have a video on Enriching the Religious Experience (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lrotmQkPvI). Please let me know if reviewing the thread and video answer your inquiry. If not, then we can pursue it at greater depth until you are satisfied.
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Hello, Cal, thank-you for posting your inquiry here. Thank-you also for posting a link to my essay, Commitment as a Refuge, The Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhism (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/commitment.htm). A critical aspect to answer your inquiry also involves Enriching the Religious Experience (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php?topic=571.0), which is a thread on this subject. We also have a video on Enriching the Religious Experience (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lrotmQkPvI). Please let me know if reviewing the thread and video answer your inquiry. If not, then we can pursue it at greater depth until you are satisfied.
I think I have a good understanding of what you're meaning and perhaps, this is correct. I do not hold a particular reverence for the formal meditative practice, at least not at the conscious level. Perhaps this is why I only meditate at night, while drifting to sleep. Even this is mostly not by choice though, it just happens that way. I do, however, at times, "think" of the charisms as a communion with the divine. I can say with confidence that if I were to sit right now in meditation for an hour or more, that it would lead to the 4th Jhana, most likely beyond, and therein lies my hesitation in a rigorous formal practice. Enriching of the religious experience, if I were even able to, would lead to submission, or at the very least the practice of submission.
I seek comparison. I wish to read what others have encountered at some of the deepest levels so at the very least, there is some preparation. Honest, and genuine experience, a "play by play" if you will. Admittedly, I have not fully crossed the threshold of the second into the third. There are times that I am at war within my mind. There are times that I am unhinged. Yet if I think of things in a broader sense, my mind is still. I spend hour upon hour here with silent mind observing and then turn the mind on to contemplate. I do not do this in the way I have previously ingested and simultaneous perceived information, rather its a collection, and then contemplation. There are many variables to this, but at the best of times, mostly late at night when there are no distractions around me, the mind is still. I hope in recent days and months to cultivate this to fruition.
Simply knowing that "worlds can collide" is fine, but knowing others have went through this relatively recently, or perhaps that they still go through this is reassuring. Alexander put it quite nicely once, "Does one go into the forest without a map?".
Both the thread Enriching the Religious Experience (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php?topic=571.0) and the video, Enriching the Religious Experience (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lrotmQkPvI), answered a great deal on "perspective", thank you for pointing me to them.
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I am glad that it was of help. Finding more people to post "blow-by-blow" accounts of the deeper states of meditation will require more people to take up a dedicated contemplative life, and record their experiences, then post them somewhere.
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I found Anon's questions about enlightenment to be interesting.
I used to have similar questions, and beliefs. I kind of miss the time where I believed that meditation would lead to a steady increase in equanimity until I needed little in my life than a little food and water. No social interaction for me.
Fortunately or unfortunately, that turned out to not be true. I had reached the "sensitive period" that Jeffrey talks about. Is this the same as the Dark Night? At any rate, I did pull back from meditation at this point as he noted that many people do.
I want to go back there!
What I can't go back to is the notion of a false belief in enlightenment. In some ways it's disappointing, but in some ways, it's better. Enlightenment seems more doable. I all ready met someone who was far along. Many call her a bodhisattva. She's not, but she's far beyond what most of us know. She's the one who rekindled by commitment to meditation and lead me to this message board.
At this point, I have stopped imaging enlightenment and now I just take the advice of my spiritual better here. It has all ready paid off. The advice has all ready been more useful than other places seeing as we're past meditation 101 that we see in places that need to make money and thus are a volume business. These places cater exclusively to the 101 crowd. I suspect that some of the teachers have tasted some attainments, but if they talk too much about them they'll be kicked out.
I can say to Anon, this. Reality is better than fantasy. We can't really know enlightenment until we feel it. We can't feel it until we do the work.
So we need to meditate.
We do need to be mindful. Good speech is helpful as it creates proper spiritual conditions.
I will say this, do not fear "social interactions" with you spiritual betters. They will not hurt you or put you back. Don't put too much time into it. Spend more meditating, but do converse. Open up and share your experiences. We are here to help.
I find that compassion is a very strong pillar in my own personal practice. This leads to more faith in the practice which leads to more practice, more concentration, and more fruit from the practice.
I'm glad to hear questions I can relate to, and I'm sure the others have helped with their answers. I'd just like to encourage you, that when you have more questions, please post them as they won't set you back spiritually.
Plus the people are really nice. Reality based, but super-helpful.
Much gratitude.
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I found Anon's questions about enlightenment to be interesting.
I am not sure what question you are speaking of, but if the following quote from Anon is what you are speaking of, then we can go further in a relevant response.
...Let me explain my comment. I get the impression from the scattered information I've received about enlightenment that the enlightened person is supposed to be beyond social needs. I don't know a canonical source for this belief. I refrained from posting on this board because I thought doing so would be indulging my social desires, which is contrary to enlightenment. Yet, I still lurked on this board because I have social needs. I also doubted that Jhanananda was enlightened, or at least fully enlightened, because it seemed the board fulfilled a social need for him...If someone can camp solo or live alienated for years without getting lonely, but later manifests social needs, he isn’t fully enlightened according to my assumption.
I used to have similar questions, and beliefs. I kind of miss the time where I believed that meditation would lead to a steady increase in equanimity until I needed little in my life than a little food and water. No social interaction for me.
Well, I can see that progression being a possibility; however, one has to learn how to meditate skillfully, and the attainment of the superior fruit is evidence of that skillfulness; unfortunately all too few who take up a contemplative life ever get to that level of skillfulness, as demonstrated by how few ever develop the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala). And, on point here, equanimity is one of the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).
Fortunately or unfortunately, that turned out to not be true. I had reached the "sensitive period" that Jeffrey talks about. Is this the same as the Dark Night? At any rate, I did pull back from meditation at this point as he noted that many people do.
Yes, the hypersensitive stage is one of several spiritual crises that are often called the Dark Night of the Soul. This is why we have a whole section of this forum that is dedicated to negotiating the Spiritual Crisis (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/board,43.0.html).
I want to go back there!
What I can't go back to is the notion of a false belief in enlightenment. In some ways it's disappointing, but in some ways, it's better. Enlightenment seems more doable. I all ready met someone who was far along. Many call her a bodhisattva. She's not, but she's far beyond what most of us know. She's the one who rekindled by commitment to meditation and lead me to this message board.
You can of course return to the level of attainment that you have before you pulled back from your meditation practice, by simply returning back to the level you had, or possibly increasing it more. You will of course return to the hypersensitive stage, which is likely to return you to the Spiritual Crisis (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/board,43.0.html). Thus, you will have to negotiate the Spiritual Crisis (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/board,43.0.html) to move beyond it; and doing so will require developing considerably more equanimity than you have at present.
Part of the reason why so few develop the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala), is because too few have sufficient dedication to liberation and enlightenment to traverse the Spiritual Crisis (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/board,43.0.html). So, another way to determine how enlightened someone is, is how well they understand the Spiritual Crisis (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/board,43.0.html), as well as how well they understand the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala). And, have nothing to do with being the only begotten son of god, or being born of a virgin, or performing miracles.
At this point, I have stopped imaging enlightenment and now I just take the advice of my spiritual better here. It has all ready paid off. The advice has all ready been more useful than other places seeing as we're past meditation 101 that we see in places that need to make money and thus are a volume business. These places cater exclusively to the 101 crowd. I suspect that some of the teachers have tasted some attainments, but if they talk too much about them they'll be kicked out.
I am glad that we have been of help to you in understanding the Spiritual Crisis (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/board,43.0.html). Hopefully you make some progress in developing the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala) as well.
I can say to Anon, this. Reality is better than fantasy. We can't really know enlightenment until we feel it. We can't feel it until we do the work.
So we need to meditate.
We do need to be mindful. Good speech is helpful as it creates proper spiritual conditions.
I will say this, do not fear "social interactions" with you spiritual betters. They will not hurt you or put you back. Don't put too much time into it. Spend more meditating, but do converse. Open up and share your experiences. We are here to help.
I find that compassion is a very strong pillar in my own personal practice. This leads to more faith in the practice which leads to more practice, more concentration, and more fruit from the practice.
I'm glad to hear questions I can relate to, and I'm sure the others have helped with their answers. I'd just like to encourage you, that when you have more questions, please post them as they won't set you back spiritually.
Plus the people are really nice. Reality based, but super-helpful.
Much gratitude.
Good advice here that all of us could benefit by.
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Jhanananda, Lately I've had an intense feeling of "falling" shortly after I've woken up, periodically throughout the day, and most recently here sitting at the computer. It's very hard to put this experience to words, but it just feels "off". Like someone is taking a blanket and covering me from my head to my toe and pulling it downward. My mind is heavy. I can correlate it to "motion", but not completely to the physical. I do not "feel" physically sick either, but perhaps it is a cold. But my body is strong and it feels of a spiritual nature when it happens. Have you, or anyone else here experienced something like this?
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Seems like you are going OOB.
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Hello Cal
When I was young I had intense falling dreams before I woke up. When I got older I realized that I had been OOB but having no reference I turned the feeling into a falling dream, I now go OOB and don't have falling dreams anymore.
Right now I feel as if I am imploding at an extremely fast speed. I recognize this speed as the feeling I feel when I am OOB so I am OK with it. It does intrude a lot on my daily life but I just let it, but I have to stay mindful.
I also can allow myself to feel extremely heavy, I like this feeling as it feels like the charisms are interweaving through me and I feel more at peace.
Bless Valdy
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Hello Cal
When I was young I had intense falling dreams before I woke up. When I got older I realized that I had been OOB but having no reference I turned the feeling into a falling dream, I now go OOB and don't have falling dreams anymore.
Right now I feel as if I am imploding at an extremely fast speed. I recognize this speed as the feeling I feel when I am OOB so I am OK with it. It does intrude a lot on my daily life but I just let it, but I have to stay mindful.
I also can allow myself to feel extremely heavy, I like this feeling as it feels like the charisms are interweaving through me and I feel more at peace.
Bless Valdy
Well, I've got about a 50/50 chance of either passing out, or remaining lucid when I go OOB. I think this was the feeling I felt when my mind went heavy. Now that you and Sam mention it, it is a very similar feeling.
haha as always Valdy, I like your take on things, you just seem to go with the flow. I dont know if I mentioned, but I was walking around when this has happened, outside even, checking the mail. How would it be? Would my body actually just collapse into a husk, laying on my front porch in whatever fashion it fell, if I were to leave the body? Hahaha
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Hello, Cal, and Valdy, Sam is correct that both of your conditions are related to the OOBE. It is the kinesthetic chairsm, which can manifest as dizziness, vertigo, etc. Those who spend time in OOBE are more likely to manifest this charism.
It is interesting to note that Cal referenced to "someone is taking a blanket and covering me from my head to my toe and pulling it downward." Because a number of the mystics and saints of the past have referred to a cloak of the holy spirit was wrapped around them. So, this is the cloak of the holy spirit and it comes with some vertigo. However, vertigo, in the context of deep meditation is called, "euphoria."
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I can't put my finger on it, but this is the second time I see intense familiarity in a full moon. The first time was the night of the Blood moon, and then again tonight with the full moon. I see a symbol in it and I feel a tranquility in looking at it that is hard to explain. I try not to be superstitious, but it really feels like there is something there. The symbol looks like the star of david with rounded corners and there is a circle in the middle of it. It reminds me greatly of the tunnel that can be seen when going OOB. I could even say the circle in the middle is the kasina before entering the tunnel. I'll just ask, has anyone else seen this symbol in a full moon? Has anyone else felt this "tranquility" while looking into a full moon?
I might add that I have never really taken any interest in the stars or astronomy. In fact, I can remember the only other time I have even took real notice of them. It was in highschool, I had a sort of "revelation" feeling like that the stars were equated to the atom and that like the atom composes the living world, the stars, planets, us, and everything else in the expanse of space made up a giant and the process continued to an infinite proportion. (I was rather high and completely out of my mind when this occured)
I found this after doing a little research, it seems the symbol itself is much older than I originally thought. Although, the symbol im seeing in the moon looks more like #6, but with a circle in the middle.
2nd century BCE – 2nd century CE, characters of Hun-Xianbei script (Mongolia and Inner Mongolia), N. Ishjamts, "Nomads In Eastern Central Asia", in the History of civilizations of Central Asia, Volume 2, Fig 5, p. 166, UNESCO Publishing, 1996, ISBN 92-3-102846-4
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About a decade ago I used the rising full moon as a meditation object and found a deer mouse joined me for about an hour or so of meditation. I then lay down under the moon, and left the body in an OOBE. I was brought back from the OOBE by the mouse jumped up and down on my head excitedly to get me to get up and meditate with it some more. Very early that morning a coyote family brought me back from another OOBE by surrounding my sleeping bag and serenading me. So, you might find similar success in using the full moon as a meditation object.
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About a decade ago I used the rising full moon as a meditation object and found a deer mouse joined me for about an hour or so of meditation. I then lay down under the moon, and left the body in an OOBE. I was brought back from the OOBE by the mouse jumped up and down on my head excitedly to get me to get up and meditate with it some more. Very early that morning a coyote family brought me back from another OOBE by surrounding my sleeping bag and serenading me. So, you might find similar success in using the full moon as a meditation object.
Amazing story Jeff, thank you for sharing it. It reminds me of one of your other stories, the one with the mountain lion. It also remind me of a time I rescued an owl. It seems like these animals have made that same type of connection with you. Perhaps, for them, these experiences will be the closest they get to liberation in their lifetimes. I am very curious in exploring some of this, someday.
I'm also very curious as to why I was so entranced on these two occasions by the full moon. The moon itself as a meditation object does make sense. The thing thats itching me about it is how I was unaware that it was a full moon, and something demanded that I take notice of it, and I've experienced this particular feeling before. For example; I know when I am not alone, the audio charism will flare and I will feel a cloak around me almost instantly. I'll feel heat or coolness across my skin, barely touching it. I become absolutely drawn to it, it demands my attention. This has been experienced with both good and bad auras. With the moon, it also demanded that same attention, although it is not of a direct contact like the others, but it was like I was required by something to take notice of it. This is something I will explore, and perhaps share with the rest of us here.
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Perhaps another story will illustrate for you an interesting relationship with the moon.
Having grownup as the bastard child of my family of origin, I chose on my 21st birthday to divorce myself from my dysfunctional family. As a consequence I was propelled into poverty, which required me to live sleeping on the ground for a year. I got so much out of sleeping under the stars that I dedicated myself to never sleep inside again. Well, I returned to sleeping inside, and now I sleep in a van. If I did not, then I would likely have been eaten long ago by a predator.
One of the things that I found quite amazing in that first year of sleeping under the stars was how, as a lucid dreamer, and OOBE practitioner, I would be pulled back to the body, and role over and look at the stars just as a bolide burst across the sky.
Also, sleeping under the stars every night I became intimately aware of the phases of the moon, to the point that I developed such an intimate relationship with the moon that when I left the body in OOBE I would often visit with the entity who is the moon in the spiritual domain. She is known by many names in many religions. I prefer to call her the holy mother.
So, perhaps this explains your intimate relationship with the moon.
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۞ This is the Arabic Star of rub el hizb
http://graphemica.com/%DB%9E/glyphs/times-new-roman-regular
This is a Muslim religious symbol, and is in the Quran. While fumbling around, I found this quote as well;
the Quran is not restricted to the literal aspect. For them, it is an essential idea that the Quran also has inward aspects:
The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning (this depth possesses a depth, after the image of the celestial Spheres, which are enclosed within each other). So it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)
I found it interesting that some would understand an esoteric depth, even more-so that one could highlight up to seven depths.
Perhaps another story will illustrate for you an interesting relationship with the moon.
Having grownup as the bastard child of my family of origin, I chose on my 21st birthday to divorce myself from my dysfunctional family. As a consequence I was propelled into poverty, which required me to live sleeping on the ground for a year. I got so much out of sleeping under the stars that I dedicated myself to never sleep inside again. Well, I returned to sleeping inside, and now I sleep in a van. If I did not, then I would likely have been eaten long ago by a predator.
One of the things that I found quite amazing in that first year of sleeping under the stars was how, as a lucid dreamer, and OOBE practitioner, I would be pulled back to the body, and role over and look at the stars just as a bolide burst across the sky.
Also, sleeping under the stars every night I became intimately aware of the phases of the moon, to the point that I developed such an intimate relationship with the moon that when I left the body in OOBE I would often visit with the entity who is the moon in the spiritual domain. She is known by many names in many religions. I prefer to call her the holy mother.
So, perhaps this explains your intimate relationship with the moon.
If only I had the courage to leave everything and live under the stars. I imagine it, with the help of your words as being completely unencumbered. Thank you for sharing this, I've given it much thought lately.
I've also given much thought to the entity of the moon. I feel this is correct, but I do not wish to presume too much. Although I am still on a quest for the symbol that I saw in it, it's quite possible it may have been just my poor vision and an over reaction to what was going on.
I intend to take this weekend as an opportunity for meditation. It worries me to let go of too much but I feel that I must. This burden has just become too heavy lately.
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۞ This is the Arabic Star of rub el hizb
http://graphemica.com/%DB%9E/glyphs/times-new-roman-regular
This is a Muslim religious symbol, and is in the Quran.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/static.graphemica.com/glyphs/i500s/000/011/678/original/06DE-500x500.png?1275330131)
arabic start of rub el hizb (http://graphemica.com/%DB%9E/glyphs/times-new-roman-regular)
Very interesting, Cal, thanks for the link
While fumbling around, I found this quote as well;
the Quran is not restricted to the literal aspect. For them, it is an essential idea that the Quran also has inward aspects:
The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning (this depth possesses a depth, after the image of the celestial Spheres, which are enclosed within each other). So it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)
I found it interesting that some would understand an esoteric depth, even more-so that one could highlight up to seven depths.
It is interesting to note that in Islam these levels are referred to as 'Jhina.' I find it most probably comes from the same source that the Pali term 'jhana' comes from.
I intend to take this weekend as an opportunity for meditation. It worries me to let go of too much but I feel that I must. This burden has just become too heavy lately.
I am reminded of the frequently repeated phrase in the Pali Canon, "Lay the burden down." It is surely a reference to letting go figuratively speaking, and in some cases literally.
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To Cal
Are you afraid of yourself?
This state of being is when you are observing your body and it's activity. Nothing to be afraid of.
To be a mystic or contemplative, one must be a warrior. The weapons should be equanimity and critical thinking. Most of all I would advise you to read the 4 noble truth and try to get the real meaning.
Edit : Sorry for the earlier post.
Sam...lol I wish I had actually "seen" this when you posted it. Instead I was knee deep in my own fears, and missed it. This is a great perspective, even now. Thank you.
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Very interesting... I increasingly find that it is true that the source of suffering is from attachment... so the more we detach, or let go, or just see it as non-self, then more liberated we are from that suffering.
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While fumbling around, I found this quote as well;
the Quran is not restricted to the literal aspect. For them, it is an essential idea that the Quran also has inward aspects:
The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning (this depth possesses a depth, after the image of the celestial Spheres, which are enclosed within each other). So it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)
I found it interesting that some would understand an esoteric depth, even more-so that one could highlight up to seven depths.
It is interesting to note that in Islam these levels are referred to as 'Jhina.' I find it most probably comes from the same source that the Pali term 'jhana' comes from.
Hmm, exploring this almost seems dangerous in this current state of affairs, but it sounds worthwhile. I wonder why it is called jhana, or jhina. Perhaps there is a specific reason for this, somewhere.
I intend to take this weekend as an opportunity for meditation. It worries me to let go of too much but I feel that I must. This burden has just become too heavy lately.
I am reminded of the frequently repeated phrase in the Pali Canon, "Lay the burden down." It is surely a reference to letting go figuratively speaking, and in some cases literally.
Indeed.
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Hmm, exploring this almost seems dangerous in this current state of affairs, but it sounds worthwhile. I wonder why it is called jhana, or Jinn. Perhaps there is a specific reason for this, somewhere.
My guess is that somewhere deep in language that appears to be lost there is a very early use of a term that is phonologically and linguistically related to jhana, or Jinn. It just so happens that the Pali cannon is, as far as I know, the earliest known use of the term jhana.
It also so happens that roughly 250 BCE a King from Magadha, which is the region where Siddhartha Gautama lived, conquered India, Persia, and much of Southeast Asia. His name was Ashoka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka). In the wake of his conquest he brought, and established Buddhist and Hindu monasteries and temples all of the way to the Persian Gulf. Around this time we see the earliest references to a Gnostic movement throughout the Mediterranean communities.
In about 50BCE a king from Afghanistan, who claimed to be a descendant of Ashoka, reestablished the Ashokan empire, which he centered in Sri Lanka. His name was Milinda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milinda_Panha). At that time he also established Buddhist and Hindu monasteries and temples throughout his domain. He also sent diplomatic missions and missionaries to Rome.
Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that the Gnostic movement was a response to the arrival of Buddhism and Hinduism in Persia. Thus, the arrival of the term 'Jinn' in Arabic may date back to this period.
Jinn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn) (Arabic: الجن, al-jinn), also romanized as djinn or anglicized as genies, are supernatural creatures in early Arabian and later Islamic mythology and theology. An individual member of the jinn is known as a jinni, djinni, or genie (الجني, al-jinnī). They are mentioned frequently in the Quran (the 72nd sura is titled Sūrat al-Jinn) and other Islamic texts and inhabit an unseen world, another universe beyond the known universe. The Quran says that the jinn are made of a smokeless and "scorching fire",[1] but are also physical in nature, being able to interact in a tactile manner with people and objects and likewise be acted upon. The jinn, humans, and angels make up the three known sapient creations of God. Like human beings, the jinn can be good, evil, or neutrally benevolent and hence have free will like humans and unlike angels.[2] The shaytan jinn are akin to demons in Christian tradition, but the jinn are not angels and the Quran draws a clear distinction between the two creations. The Quran states in Sūrat al-Kahf (The Cave), Ayah 50,[3] that Iblis (Azazel) is one of the jinn.
Etymology
Jinn is an Arabic collective noun deriving from the Semitic root JNN (Arabic: جَنّ / جُنّ, jann), whose primary meaning is "to hide". Some authors interpret the word to mean, literally, "beings that are concealed from the senses".[4] Cognates include the Arabic majnūn ("possessed", or generally "insane"), jannah ("garden"), and janīn ("embryo").[5] Jinn is properly treated as a plural, with the singular being jinni.
The anglicized form genie is a borrowing of the French génie, from the Latin genius, a guardian spirit of people and places in Roman religion. It first appeared[6] in 18th-century translations of the Thousand and One Nights from the French,[7] where it had been used owing to its rough similarity in sound and sense.
Pre-Islamic Arabia
See also: Religion in pre-Islamic Arabia
Archeological evidence found in Northwestern Arabia seems to indicate the worship of jinn, or at least their tributary status, hundreds of years before Islam: an Aramaic inscription from Beth Fasi'el near Palmyra pays tribute to the "ginnaye", the "good and rewarding gods",[8][9] and it has been argued that the term is related to the Arabic jinn.[10] Numerous mentions of jinn in the Quran and testimony of both pre-Islamic and Islamic literature indicate that the belief in spirits was prominent in pre-Islamic Bedouin religion.[11] However, there is evidence that the word jinn is derived from Aramaic, where it was used by Christians to designate pagan gods reduced to the status of demons, and was introduced into Arabic folklore only late in the pre-Islamic era.[11] Julius Wellhausen has observed that such spirits were thought to inhabit desolate, dingy and dark places and that they were feared.[11] One had to protect oneself from them, but they were not the objects of a true cult.[11]
Islam
In Islamic theology jinn are said to be creatures with free will, made from smokeless fire by Allah as humans were made of clay, among other things.[12] According to the Quran, jinn have free will, and Iblīs abused this freedom in front of Allah by refusing to bow to Adam when Allah ordered angels and jinn to do so. For disobeying Allah, Iblīs was expelled from Paradise and called "Shaytān" (Satan). Jinn are frequently mentioned in the Quran: Surah 72 (named Sūrat al-Jinn) is named after the jinn, and has a passage about them. Another surah (Sūrat al-Nās) mentions jinn in the last verse.[13] The Qurʾan also mentions that Muhammad was sent as a prophet to both "humanity and the jinn", and that prophets and messengers were sent to both communities.[14][15]
They are usually invisible to humans, but humans do appear clearly to jinn, as they can possess them. Jinn have the power to travel large distances at extreme speeds and are thought to live in remote areas, mountains, seas, trees, and the air, in their own communities. Like humans, jinn will also be judged on the Day of Judgment and will be sent to Paradise or Hell according to their deeds.[16]
Christian sources
Van Dyck's Arabic translation of the Old Testament uses the alternative collective plural jann (الجان al-jānn) to render the Hebrew word usually translated into English as "familiar spirit" (אוב , Strong #0178) in several places (Leviticus 19:31, 20:6, 1 Samuel 28:3,7,9, 1 Chronicles 10:13).[43]
I do not believe that it is a coincidence that the Pali term 'jhana' is also derived from the Pali term for fire, as is the term 'jin' in Arabic. Both of these terms throughout Asia also refer to spirit beings, and evil places, such as caves. For instance the use of the term 'Ma Kio' in Zen Buddhism also refers to a dark, or evil, cave of spirits.
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This is very interesting indeed. The question that is itching at me at present is "where do we fall into all of this"? Being that we are physically human.
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The way I see it, we humans are spirit beings captured for a time in flesh. When we learn to meditate deeply we return to our spirit being nature, and leave behind the beast.
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Sexual desire, lust even, has been one of the most uncomfortable topics for me to talk about. This is probably the case because it has been immensely present within me since as early as 6 years old. I had sex for the first time when I was 8 with a girl of the same age who lived in another apartment of the complex we lived in. It is truly an all consuming obsession, and it is hideous to view it. The un natural impulses that i have are only hinged by morality, but they are rampant in my mind, and I want to be free of them. This is what I cling to. The self-identity feels bare and exposed, perhaps this is good to see honest transparency. Perhaps it was better left un-shared.
What compels me to share this is its what I am viewing now. The brutal, disgusting and repulsive honesty of who I am. This is that doubled-edge sword. That while immersed in the divine, I am thankful, but undeserving. Meditation lifts the curtain of excuse, and throws these things right in one's face. They must be faced, and for some, these honest reflections into oneself, may be too much. I know they certainly feel too much for me right now. You'd think I had gotten used to this by now. After-all, it is me who I am looking at.
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I can see why you want to be free of strong sexual desire. It takes up a lot of time, can get you into trouble, and gives you nothing back long term.
However, I don't think it's unnatural to want to reproduce nor do I think it's bad to talk about.
I have found that my desire has slowed a bit after 40 years old.
I'm sure Jeffrey and the other have deeper insight. I don't have any big answers.
I do know that it used to interfere with my meditation schedule especially during the year when I tried to meditate a few times a day when I didn't have a job.
Other than satisfying the desires, I see no other way with dealing with it. Meditations on death or the how disgusting the human body is did nothing for me. They did not work.
Ultimately, I don't fight it mentally, anymore. Nor do I feel bad about it.
But like I said, it has simmered down quite a bit with age, and I expect this to continue.
But I don't think you have a unique problem nor are you bad in anyway for your feelings.
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However, I don't think it's unnatural to want to reproduce nor do I think it's bad to talk about.
Well, thank you for your response Follinge, it is appreciated. These desires that I speak of are not innocent. They are not just inherent programming. Although I could see how it could be defined as that. They are much more than that, at least within me. They are a desire for dominance and gratification. They are an object for malice. I used to see this "excitement" as innocent, but when I view them up close, they are truly repulsive. I hinge them with morality, but it does not stop them from being present. This may not be true of all men as I am struggling to see another perspective in this regard. That these desires could be of a different nature, far removed from what I experience. But, at least within me, its much more than "wanting to reproduce".
Meditations on death or the how disgusting the human body is did nothing for me. They did not work.
Perhaps we might take some time to explore this perspective, Follinge. It is not that one meditates on death but rather the realization that meditation emulates death. Understanding the Four Noble Truths helps us in this regard;
The Truth that life is suffering, Dhukka.
The Truth of the Origin of Dukkha; that The 5 Aggregates bind us in rebirth. (I should probably just say Fetters here, but I understand it in this fashion)
The Truth that there is an end to Dhukka.
And that the Noble Eightfold Path and the culmination of the Eighth-fold, is the path to liberation.
Now to put this succinctly; The body IS life. Life is suffering. There is more out there Folinge, much more than this meat husk of a shell that we are bound to.
I might add that for the true religious experience, these truths must resonate within us. That they must be fully understood, as they are the basis of the Noble Eightfold Path.
Ultimately, I don't fight it mentally, anymore. Nor do I feel bad about it.
I agree with you here. I believe firmly being aware of such things as they arise to be enough, so long as they are contemplated, understood, and taken to meditation. To be frank; they're just absolutely ugly.
I might add further more that the sexual energy I have noticed it to play a remarkable role in furthering meditative depth. I have also noticed that expelling it in mundane physical gratification to be ridiculous in comparison. /Sigh, yet it has not stopped me from pursuing it. It presents itself as a ridiculous game of cat and mouse where I might question my own stupidity, if I am being honest. The question becomes, why would I immerse myself in an activity that produces a true emotion of dominance and gratification when in doing so gives away an amazing energy that could propel the most profound experience. So here in lies my mental fight; cause Im an idiot.
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This is a very good topic to arise. The fact is we are spirit in an animal's body. For any animal to be a successful member of its species, it must fulfill its basic biological necessities, which are for humans: acquire subsistence, reproduce, and defend its subsistence, its mate, and its off-spring. So, much of human behavior, which Cal referred to, is normal and natural, as follinge pointed out.
However, when we begin to meditate deeply, we begin to identify with the spirit, and withdraw from the beast. In the process we begin to see the beast as vulgar, and disgusting.
I recall in the late 90s when I had uncovered greater depths in meditation, I found tremendous disgust for my body, its cravings, and even its sounds and smells. I recall coming back to the body from an OOBE, and being overwhelmed by the stench and filth of the beast that I reside within for this lifetime. And, every time the beast spoke I was annoyed by the retched sound it made. Now, I am not bothered by anything this beast does, or emits.
So, Cal, you are making great progress. Keep it up.
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Jeffrey, your response reminds me of when you wrote about other meditations which you said were backwards such as loving-kindness, I believe.
You mentioned that when we reach jhanas, we realize what those meditations are trying to produce so it's best just to move straight to jhana.
Similarly, there are Buddhist meditations on disgust for the human body, but it seems like you all ready got there via jhana.
Let me know if I'm wrong on any of this. I find these discussion to be motivating for me to actually go and meditate. Thanks. Also thanks to Cal for sharing insights on desire.
I see the dangers of desire, but I did not see it in itself as bad until now.
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Jeffrey, your response reminds me of when you wrote about other meditations which you said were backwards such as loving-kindness, I believe.
You mentioned that when we reach jhanas, we realize what those meditations are trying to produce so it's best just to move straight to jhana.
Similarly, there are Buddhist meditations on disgust for the human body, but it seems like you all ready got there via jhana.
Let me know if I'm wrong on any of this. I find these discussion to be motivating for me to actually go and meditate. Thanks. Also thanks to Cal for sharing insights on desire.
I see the dangers of desire, but I did not see it in itself as bad until now.
Follinge, you're in the right hands with Jefferey. Unlike these other meditation teachers, he has actually walked the path in which he teaches. This is all a progression. There is a start and a finish. The journey itself is immense and has many different stages.
Desires themselves, as he pointed out, are normal and natural. We all experience them. They're not bad. They must only be traversed at some point along the journey.
I do apologize, I rant and rant and a lot of times I miss things. It becomes so hard to convey in words these experiences. I think this is where it becomes important to take our time with each step, that there is no rush, and that each journey is made within ourselves.
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Correct, follinge. Thank-you, Cal. I am only to happy to have helped a few people toward nibanna before this body dies.
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Cal, I don't consider your posts to be rants. They are very honest and informative, and if I didn't get anything out of them, I would choose not to read them.
You have landed on something that I had been dealing with as well: strong desire. What to do with it? Why is it so annoying? What a distraction!
On the other hand, it seems like there are skillful ways to deal with this as well which is great. I liked how meditation lead to what I thought would work with the body meditation which I used to try: "hair of head, hair of body, nails, skin, teeth."
Yes, I agree that we have a good teacher; I'm looking forward to sitting with you.
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Cal, I don't consider your posts to be rants. They are very honest and informative, and if I didn't get anything out of them, I would choose not to read them.
You have landed on something that I had been dealing with as well: strong desire. What to do with it? Why is it so annoying? What a distraction!
On the other hand, it seems like there are skillful ways to deal with this as well which is great. I liked how meditation lead to what I thought would work with the body meditation which I used to try: "hair of head, hair of body, nails, skin, teeth."
Yes, I agree that we have a good teacher; I'm looking forward to sitting with you.
Your post reminds me of something. I've noticed that during meditation, my lips are closed, but my mouth is open. When I finish the session Ill chomp back down and man do my teeth feel foreign, like they have been pulled up and need to be pushed back into place or something.
Perhaps it is my self-view. That I might see it as ranting due to rising insecurity towards personal experience being shared. I have noticed it to be present. Thank you for your encouragement.
Desires at their prevalence, with me, are voracious and rampant. Perhaps it is in the contrast of nothingness that they arise as vulgar, unwanted and invasive. I truly only get this way when I meditate consecutively and become wholesomely saturated. Otherwise, the desire appears as it normally would, although I will be partially removed from it, and can observe it, it is a natural impulse. But, I am not fully enlightened. Perhaps there will be a time when I can be fully removed from them all-together.
I've spent the better part of a year searching for others. I'm always fumbling around, reading something of religious nature, and looking for others that experience what I do. Jeff and the GWV, all they've done, it's unheard of elsewhere. There are countless accounts of individuals who experience terrifying, beautiful and ecstatic things at meditation retreat. And for each one of those accounts, there is a scumbag on the other end attempting to exploit, or bury that person for those experiences. To think about all of them who sought out some sort of treatment for an "illness" produced of natural phenomena is truly heart-wrenching when I know they just do not have guidance. They don't have guidance because these "teachers" don't know their head from their ass. Ya know, I've spent time reading on what some of them will say, their interpretations of the Suttas, quite frankly, sometimes I laugh. So many have it so wrong. I know this because each and every last word in the Sutta can be felt in and of itself. All of it. The Buddha was a truly amazing individual, and those that were near him, in his time, were some of the luckiest men to walk this earth. Just as we are lucky to have Jeff.
This is another reason why a GWV retreat center is so important. There are so many lost people out there. So many that are driven to false beliefs due to fabricated social expectancy. Every bit of it fabricated. There is no freedom within boundaries. From the moment someone is born there is a "place" thrust upon them within the bounds of man. Some might argue that navigating within those boundaries is "freedom". I suppose that will have to come down to the individual, and what they believe, or what one is willing to accept. But for those who stumble upon Freedom; they have no place. We see it everywhere, if we choose to see. Freedom is marginalized, Freedom becomes a threat to government and assimilation, Freedom does not further the interests of the man on High Mountain, Freedom does not discriminate (god forbid a place of equality)...Freedom is permanent.
Imagine the people sitting alone right now, crying, afraid, feeling dejected, alienated, and "different" because there is something inside of them that tells them "This world just isnt right, something is wrong with it". These same people might spend the majority of their lives wondering why people are the way they are. These same people are the ones who turn to a false teacher. These same people are the ones I speak of.
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Something struck a chord with me Cal, because I was exactly like that too.
When I first got into "buddhism", the way things were being explained did not really align with what I experienced within as a child. All those explanations seemed to be leading something, but then I realized it wasn't adding to the way I could relate to it - but it was all mental formations - more and more of it. I had to deconstruct a lot of what I had learnt and go back to the basics. Also, the cult mentality, the group-think, the fact that people don't realize they are clinging onto a group identity, dogma, doctrines, fantasies and myths, rites and routines - all leading to defensiveness against accuracy and truth...
I guess a retreat center would be so much more possible if not for the fact, as Jhanananda frequently points out, that the mystics are frequently marginalized by the masses.
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Your post reminds me of something. I've noticed that during meditation, my lips are closed, but my mouth is open. When I finish the session Ill chomp back down and man do my teeth feel foreign, like they have been pulled up and need to be pushed back into place or something.
This is how I too have meditated for decades. Sometimes a kriya happens in the jaw causing the teeth to bite the tongue, so I have to be careful not to allow the tongue to relax in the way of the teeth.
Desires at their prevalence, with me, are voracious and rampant.
This can be in part due to higher level of self-awareness as you develop deep meditation practice.
I've spent the better part of a year searching for others. I'm always fumbling around, reading something of religious nature, and looking for others that experience what I do. Jeff and the GWV, all they've done, it's unheard of elsewhere. There are countless accounts of individuals who experience terrifying, beautiful and ecstatic things at meditation retreat. And for each one of those accounts, there is a scumbag on the other end attempting to exploit, or bury that person for those experiences. To think about all of them who sought out some sort of treatment for an "illness" produced of natural phenomena is truly heart-wrenching when I know they just do not have guidance. They don't have guidance because these "teachers" don't know their head from their ass. Ya know, I've spent time reading on what some of them will say, their interpretations of the Suttas, quite frankly, sometimes I laugh. So many have it so wrong. I know this because each and every last word in the Sutta can be felt in and of itself. All of it. The Buddha was a truly amazing individual, and those that were near him, in his time, were some of the luckiest men to walk this earth. Just as we are lucky to have Jeff.
This is another reason why a GWV retreat center is so important.
Thank-you, Cal.
There are so many lost people out there. So many that are driven to false beliefs due to fabricated social expectancy. Every bit of it fabricated. There is no freedom within boundaries. From the moment someone is born there is a "place" thrust upon them within the bounds of man. Some might argue that navigating within those boundaries is "freedom". I suppose that will have to come down to the individual, and what they believe, or what one is willing to accept. But for those who stumble upon Freedom; they have no place. We see it everywhere, if we choose to see. Freedom is marginalized, Freedom becomes a threat to government and assimilation, Freedom does not further the interests of the man on High Mountain, Freedom does not discriminate (god forbid a place of equality)...Freedom is permanent.
Imagine the people sitting alone right now, crying, afraid, feeling dejected, alienated, and "different" because there is something inside of them that tells them "This world just isnt right, something is wrong with it". These same people might spend the majority of their lives wondering why people are the way they are. These same people are the ones who turn to a false teacher. These same people are the ones I speak of.
This is what keeps me moving forward, to help just one more person, like: yourself, bodhimind, Michel, Michael, and the rest on this forum; out of the collective delusion.
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Something struck a chord with me Cal, because I was exactly like that too.
When I first got into "buddhism", the way things were being explained did not really align with what I experienced within as a child. All those explanations seemed to be leading something, but then I realized it wasn't adding to the way I could relate to it - but it was all mental formations - more and more of it. I had to deconstruct a lot of what I had learnt and go back to the basics. Also, the cult mentality, the group-think, the fact that people don't realize they are clinging onto a group identity, dogma, doctrines, fantasies and myths, rites and routines - all leading to defensiveness against accuracy and truth...
I guess a retreat center would be so much more possible if not for the fact, as Jhanananda frequently points out, that the mystics are frequently marginalized by the masses.
I know exactly what youre speaking of here Bohdimind, it's that "pull". That itch in the back of the mind. I believe that everyone is capable of feeling this pull, most admittedly will not see past the construct, but theyre capable. I give thought to how these other places were formed. How so many beliefs can be pursued on misunderstood premise and false teachers. That alone provides some hope that a genuine place is possible. I think most just dont want to think for themselves, that its easier for them to just continue along the path that has been constructed for them. Perhaps it is lack of incentive. Perhaps it is easier to believe that, for a christian, simply asking Jesus into ones heart is enough for liberation, nothing more, nothing less (Except that there is an entire slew of things that must come to culmination before it can be true). They do not question it because it is a MASSIVE delusion. But it's not completely without hope.
You talked some about it in your last post. The aura that surrounds us. In my experience, it is portrayed well in Inception; where the dreamers subconscious would attack what is foreign, and the Matrix; how Agents could take control of anyone near those who were not "plugged-in". That those around us do feel it, and they react to it. Most, in my experience, react negatively to it. I believe alot of this is due to a purity. If I can recognize many faults within myself, then it is likely that I am simply projecting them upon others, much more than a "plugged-in" individual would because of the intimate experience that I share with the charisms. I think that if I can unravel this identity completely, that there might be a different reaction to being in proximity, as there would be nothing left to attack. Yet at the same time I am aware this is only my own delusion; but it wont stop me from trying.
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So, Im gonna go completely off the deep end here guys and share a few things that I've noticed throughout this course. I'm going to share it because I believe it is at least the start of an answer to helping others. But first, I'm gonna point out the consequence, cause it's not very pleasant.
I've noticed that at every attempt I've made at communicating to others through the divine, has resulted in a horde of shitbag fuckers dog-piling me with laughably funny images. When I really put myself, my true self, into something; they attack. I had one experience where I put myself into to communicating to somebody who was lost, somebody here on this forum actually. I tried to teach them, really tried, like the amount of effort I put into those words was immense. I dont mean thought wise either. That night resulted in probably the single most frustrating experience with these fuckers. As a matter of fact, I received help from a spiritual being in removing it.
There have been others, many others, these fuckers are relentless. It also seems as though I can provoke them lol. I opened my throat chakra last night and "thought" to them after they were trying to scare me for better than an hour. I thought, "You fuckers are funny!" "Wow, that was creative!" "Who taught you that one, you should use it again!". Hehe, I pissed it off, and it got in my face, I even opened my eyes and I could see it. They smell like piss and feel like fire. I absorbed further, unafraid, and stopped interacting with it and it went away. I almost felt bad; I wanted it to come with me.
Why does this happen is the question that comes up. I am starting to believe that actually putting myself into something does create a "product", that it might work. I have no way of actually proving this, not without somebody else telling me that they "felt something" after reading it, or after our encounter. I think it is in the negative that it might be proved, that these experiences can literally intensify after being true to someone else. So im starting to believe that just as these fuckers have an influence; so can we.
Any guidance in this matter would be very helpful; but im not afraid of the world or angry little asshats.
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The winter before I left Tucson, I had a conversation with someone there whom I have known for a few decades. He claimed OOBEs were just mental projection.
I of course said "OOBEs are more real than this waking reality, and I can take you there."
He said, "OK, do it."
That night, while in an OOBE I traveled to him, but the closer I got to him the more legions of demons that obstructed my path. I gave up on trying and traveled elsewhere.
The moral of both of our stories is most people abound with demons, and are deeply afraid of having a genuine religious experience, so they put up obstacles to any aide that comes there way. it is these legions of demons, so there is no point in helping such a person.
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The winter before I left Tucson, I had a conversation with someone there whom I have known for a few decades. He claimed OOBEs were just mental projection. I of course said rel OOBEs are more real than this waking reality, and I can take you there.
He said, "OK, do it."
That night, while in an OOBE I traveled to him, but the closer I got to him the more legions of demons that obstructed my path. I gave up on trying and traveled elsewhere.
The moral of both of our stories is most people abound with demons, and are deeply afraid of having a genuine religious experience, so they put up obstacles to any aide that comes there way. it is these legions of demons, so there is no point in helping such a person.
I am beginning to understand that taking actions in this regard comes with a burden. Possibly that of taking on anothers burden all-together. But, I also distinctly remember body slamming that minotaur fucker several times; I havent seen him in awhile ;D.
You bring up a good point though; that helping oneself must come first. If theyre not willing to help themselves, helping them becomes a wasted effort. They have to want to be free. I've heard Sam say similar things as well. Thank you for this, it prompts much thought.
It also reminds me of last nights sit. It was the same thing, many of them appear in their ghoulish fashion. There was this one though, a little goblin thing; I seen him clear as day. He tried to be scary, I'll give him that, but when he appeared he like punched at me, holding his little bottle, or whatever it was. Cute as shit, lil pointed green ears, jagged teeth, glowing red eyes. I'd squeeze him till he popped hahaha. But, it left me thinking that theres always another to take its place, so even when theyre are at a distance, its probably best to only attend to the light, unless they choose otherwise.
But still, I cant help but thinking how funny it might be to become a spiritual bowling ball. After-all, theyre quite relentless in their efforts ;D
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You bring up a good point though; that helping oneself must come first. If theyre not willing to help themselves, helping them becomes a wasted effort. They have to want to be free. I've heard Sam say similar things as well. Thank you for this, it prompts much thought.
I have found there is nothing that I can do for someone who has not taken up a contemplative life, so I keep my silence, maintain my bliss, and move away from the legions of demons, which are numberless.
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I have found there to be more to helping others than just the demons. It seems as though a connection with that individual can be made as well. That feelings might be shared and experienced together.
I recall this mostly after Jhanon helping me to find the charisms. There were just so many uprisings of emotion that I couldnt explain. Things would randomly appear out of thin air. I would become anxious or frustrated seemingly from nothing at all. There were so many new things during that time-frame that it was hard to pinpoint anything at all. But later, Jhanon also described similar occurrences.
At that point in my life I had also just given up a 7 year opiate addiction, but it seemed on occasion that withdraw symptoms would arise even months after I had taken a pill. Kicking the addiction I can attribute wholly to my awakening and finding what it was I had been searching for. I no longer needed the opiates to dull the outside world after finding the inner life. Yet I could not explain why I felt that all-too familiar feeling of withdraw. Jhanon was also struggling with opiates at the time, and after conversation with him, he explained at those times he was going through withdraws.
I recall a specific incident around 3 am. I went from being calm, I believe I was finishing a movie before bed, to being anxious and almost deathly afraid of something instantly. There was a screeching in my ears I had never heard before and havent heard since. This wailing was someone or something crying out. I found out later the next day that Jhanon had had a rough night, and so I attributed that experience to his.
I'd hate to pin these feelings at these time wholly on another individual, because when they arose, they certainly became my own and required some depth in abating them. But before their arrival, I did not recognize them as being present. I'd only like to point out that in my experience that a link can be made and experience shared.
This also leaves me with questions. First off, has anyone else experienced this? Second, if so, can the good experiences be shared as well?
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At that point in my life I had also just given up a 7 year opiate addiction, but it seemed on occasion that withdraw symptoms would arise even months after I had taken a pill. Kicking the addiction I can attribute wholly to my awakening and finding what it was I had been searching for. I no longer needed the opiates to dull the outside world after finding the inner life. Yet I could not explain why I felt that all-too familiar feeling of withdraw.
You are living proof, as well as just about everyone else on this forum, that learning to meditate deeply discharges our addictions; nonetheless, those pangs may return from time to time. It is then that we must maintain our resolve not to rekindle the addiction.
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Hello Cal,
I just wanted to say that I experience the emotions and sometimes thoughts of others lucidly like you describe. At times I will all of a sudden feel a wave of anxiety out of nowhere. Within a few minutes my girlfriend may say, I don't know what's wrong but I'm feeling really anxious. Or will she is doing schoolwork in the room with me, i can literally feel her getting more anxious and tedious about it as time passes. I have also had a random bout of anxiety for a whole day without it being directly related to any of the problems in my life. This was only to find out the next day that my girlfriends mom was extremely stressed about something and needed to talk about it. These are only a few examples from my experience, but it has happened often enough without me trying to manipulate such an outcome that it must be something. Also from seeing other peoples posts here, there definitely seems to be an emotional barrier that becomes a lot more permeable even if not entirely transparent.
I also want to thank you for your posts man. And Zack and bodhimind. Even though I don't post much any more, you guys seem to continuously talk about the exact subjects I have questions about and ask those questions in such a similar tone. Blows my mind sometimes. I will regrettably not be able to make it to the retreat this year. I hope it is safe and expansive experience for those who attend. I will be sitting heavily for meditation during those days as well. Much love.
Rougeleader
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Hello Cal,
I just wanted to say that I experience the emotions and sometimes thoughts of others lucidly like you describe. At times I will all of a sudden feel a wave of anxiety out of nowhere. Within a few minutes my girlfriend may say, I don't know what's wrong but I'm feeling really anxious. Or will she is doing schoolwork in the room with me, i can literally feel her getting more anxious and tedious about it as time passes. I have also had a random bout of anxiety for a whole day without it being directly related to any of the problems in my life. This was only to find out the next day that my girlfriends mom was extremely stressed about something and needed to talk about it. These are only a few examples from my experience, but it has happened often enough without me trying to manipulate such an outcome that it must be something. Also from seeing other peoples posts here, there definitely seems to be an emotional barrier that becomes a lot more permeable even if not entirely transparent.
I also want to thank you for your posts man. And Zack and bodhimind. Even though I don't post much any more, you guys seem to continuously talk about the exact subjects I have questions about and ask those questions in such a similar tone. Blows my mind sometimes. I will regrettably not be able to make it to the retreat this year. I hope it is safe and expansive experience for those who attend. I will be sitting heavily for meditation during those days as well. Much love.
Rougeleader
This is a welcome synchronicity =). Just yesterday I was thinking about how you were. It's good to hear from you.
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At that point in my life I had also just given up a 7 year opiate addiction, but it seemed on occasion that withdraw symptoms would arise even months after I had taken a pill. Kicking the addiction I can attribute wholly to my awakening and finding what it was I had been searching for. I no longer needed the opiates to dull the outside world after finding the inner life. Yet I could not explain why I felt that all-too familiar feeling of withdraw.
You are living proof, as well as just about everyone else on this forum, that learning to meditate deeply discharges our addictions; nonetheless, those pangs may return from time to time. It is then that we must maintain our resolve not to rekindle the addiction.
I think that the biggest driver to not returning to them falls within impermanence. Now I fully recognize the opiate as nothing more than a "knock-off" to the real deal; which pales greatly in comparison.
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http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=26471 (http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=26471)
Well it was on the third page of my google search for "Jhana meditation forum" but a light shined through the erroneous "wall-o-text' I had been sifting through.
Thank you Sean, if you are here. It certainly was a welcome surprise for me when I seen you post a link to the GWV.
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The winter before I left Tucson, I had a conversation with someone there whom I have known for a few decades. He claimed OOBEs were just mental projection. I of course said rel OOBEs are more real than this waking reality, and I can take you there.
He said, "OK, do it."
That night, while in an OOBE I traveled to him, but the closer I got to him the more legions of demons that obstructed my path. I gave up on trying and traveled elsewhere.
The moral of both of our stories is most people abound with demons, and are deeply afraid of having a genuine religious experience, so they put up obstacles to any aide that comes there way. it is these legions of demons, so there is no point in helping such a person.
I am beginning to understand that taking actions in this regard comes with a burden. Possibly that of taking on anothers burden all-together. But, I also distinctly remember body slamming that minotaur fucker several times; I havent seen him in awhile ;D.
You bring up a good point though; that helping oneself must come first. If theyre not willing to help themselves, helping them becomes a wasted effort. They have to want to be free. I've heard Sam say similar things as well. Thank you for this, it prompts much thought.
It also reminds me of last nights sit. It was the same thing, many of them appear in their ghoulish fashion. There was this one though, a little goblin thing; I seen him clear as day. He tried to be scary, I'll give him that, but when he appeared he like punched at me, holding his little bottle, or whatever it was. Cute as shit, lil pointed green ears, jagged teeth, glowing red eyes. I'd squeeze him till he popped hahaha. But, it left me thinking that theres always another to take its place, so even when theyre are at a distance, its probably best to only attend to the light, unless they choose otherwise.
But still, I cant help but thinking how funny it might be to become a spiritual bowling ball. After-all, theyre quite relentless in their efforts ;D
Him, the Minotaur. Μίνως as he may be called in Ancient Greek. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89%CF%82 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89%CF%82) He was represented, as I recall without research, as the "Guardian of the Maze". I recall this sticking in my mind from childhood interests in Greek Mythology and hearing stories of Hercules and other Greek/Roman Gods. I seen reference while following an interest in the Children of Mithras/Illuminati before ever finding the charisms, as well.
Yet, I never found any synchronicity until now. The maze, the dream within a dream, the sphere within a sphere; all of it. This Minotaur in the maze was a simple reference that encompasses a great deal. These references are everywhere, Jhananada. I can't believe that I havent taken notice to see them.
I'd like to share something else. While attempting to reach out to an individual, to help them, I asked the Moon for guidance. I could not figure out the fashion in which it was received until recently visiting various websites. I'm not sure if they understand this or not, these sites I speak of, but ancient Egyptian iconography often depicts the Moon. I did not understand this, nor did I understand why the imagery of that meditation sit produced many images of individuals dressed in ancient Egyptian attire. But, after seeing these different iconography, I now understand why I seen that way. I believe this is the fashion that She might choose to communicate.
I've recently being reaching out in more public forums, such as facebook and others. I'll admit some fear is present, however, just as I can see some synchronicity across a broad spectrum, perhaps others may as well.
I hope the retreat has been very fruitful thus far =)
Miss you all,
Cal
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Yes, the Minotaur is a guardian spirit, and most cultures have such concept, and yes we can bump into them when we are in OOBE, especially when approaching another being. It is a defense mechanism of the individual. When we master the OOBE, then the guardian spirits have no effect upon us.
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I seem to remember them the most, the Minotaurs. I've been working lately on lucidity, and it's be fairly fruitful. I've went from remembering a dream every couple of months to roughly 3-4 per week. Journaling them has been an excellent tool in helping with this.
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Good work, Cal. If you keep it up, plus your contemplative practice, then you are likely to get to lucidity 24/7, which I believe is what was meant in the suttas by arriving at the "deathless" (amatta).
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Being lucid 24/7 is a long ways off from where I am now. Most often the dreams are like a cloud drifting through the most inner portion of my mind. When I catch them, I have to contemplate them then, otherwise they disappear. Journaling them has helped tremendously in being systematic with them, and even sometimes revealing more to them than I would have seen in simple contemplation. Plus, it allows a frame of reference to return to them, making them more vivid in the minds eye. It's the spectacular dreams that tend not to need much work. It doesnt happen very often, but sometimes I get this chill over me and I just wake up, while still in the dream. It becomes real...because it is real. Hyper real I should say, more real than sitting here typing this out. But i still take off, every time. There is this excitement, this freedom about them. This excitement has lead to my physical body waking up every time, so they tend to be very short lived. There is one thing that rings true about all of these experiences, every last one of them I have felt as though a heavy heavy burden was cast off. I am still not 100% sure what this burden is precisely, although I have my theories, and there are some coincedence within them. But, I see myself more as a toddler inside of a playpen when it comes to the level of lucidity I have now; theres much more work to be done.
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I m glad that you have found journalling your dreams has helped you develop your lucidity in the sleep state. I too found that to be true. I also found reviewing my previous year's dream journal at the beginning of the next year reveled additional insights. Perhaps you, and others here, will find the same thing.
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This image has something to it. I'm not a fan of all the third-eye emphasis that is out there on the web. Images like this as strewn throughout these types of websites, but something stopped me at this one.
It's frustrating that I know nothing about the context of the symbols, and cannot offer any interpretation of their meanings.
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I find little evidence that any of the Egyptian pharaohs, or their priests, or their artists, had any experience in deep meditation. What I see in past advanced cultures is a hegemonic leadership praying upon the peasants for wealth and power, and using a pretentious and hypocritical priesthood to facilitate that control. Nonetheless, those who practice deep meditation and the OOBE might have such experiences as described by the painting.
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Do you ever just feel exhausted or spent? Too often lately do I find that I understand nothing at all. The effort needed to continue holding on to any kind of mindset, or idea is utterly pointless, as it only serves to drain me. It's become almost impossible to balance. I think this is the work of the charisms, and I do hold much gratitude for their relentlessness. I also think that this is the path and what is meant to be accomplished through them. I think that returning to meditation time and again can relieve this pain. I think that they wish for surrender. But truth be told....the only thing for certain is that I do not know.
I'm so angry lately. The spiritual, life, worldly requisites, the wife, kids and those I have reached out too DO NOT cooperate well. These "visits" at night exhaust me even more. I do not feel rested, or that there is peace to be found. My thoughts are ugly and untamed. My discipline is nothing more than a plastic bag in the wind. When I attempt to restrain myself in anyway, my thoughts of what I attempt to restrain consume me. When I attempt to meditate at depth my body will move of its own accord. It will literally roll over onto a side in meditation before bed, even when I thought I had resolved to continue with meditation. There is a rift within me between body and soul with no harmony.
What bothers me is that I missed it coming about, I was not aware of it. Unlike similar experiences in the past, the charisms are still with me always. I hear them feel them breathe them now; but it's not enough anymore. The other night the feeling of unity came over me. For reasons completely unknown to me this "unity" was in regards to what has been the biggest struggle of my adult life. I have been resolved in relinquish, I had begun planning, I felt an air of freedom from it. I began to relish the thought of peace and solitude. Then this "unity" came over me. Why must I endure this? When is enough, enough? I cannot turn away from this guidance...but it is, in part, what angers me. My wife tells me, as she wakes up from sleep while I am meditating, after exhibiting kriya like movements for at least 20 mins prior, all the while frustrating me during meditation, then that her body feels like it itches everywhere and that shes hot, on fire hot. So you see, I cannot walk away. This "unity" makes sense. I know why it is asked of me. But fuck man, I just want peace =(.
As to the image above, the only correlation that I have with it is in a flooding of information I received after deep meditation. To be perfectly honest, the amount of information was too much and I do not even recall a fraction of it. When passing by this image, I got a feeling, and it came back to that information flooding somehow. But I'm just too deflated right now to try and understand why =(, so I shared the image thinking it's place was better here. In the future, I can attempt to put more time into these kinds of posts, instead of just dumping them like this.
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Do you ever just feel exhausted or spent? Too often lately do I find that I understand nothing at all. The effort needed to continue holding on to any kind of mindset, or idea is utterly pointless, as it only serves to drain me. It's become almost impossible to balance. I think this is the work of the charisms, and I do hold much gratitude for their relentlessness. I also think that this is the path and what is meant to be accomplished through them. I think that returning to meditation time and again can relieve this pain. I think that they wish for surrender. But truth be told....the only thing for certain is that I do not know.
I do feel this too. And I find that doing sati on my body through moving exercises like walking or standing meditation seems to help me a lot. I don't know if it can help for you. I just find that keeping equanimity within helps me most, like you said... peace.
Desire feels like some kind of fire to me. It really does burn. I've learnt this the hard way recently and I realize that any pleasurable experience can only be pleasurable with a background of pain... So really to retreat and calm the mind again and again has been my week-long endeavor. To attend to the charisms... I admit that I haven't done it as intensely and I've been ensnared by mara, but I am constantly pulling myself back... I guess that's why sila, discipline, is part of the N8P. It's a constant effort...
It kind of feels as if I'm trying to hold onto a buoy and make it not move, even though the waves of the ocean are constantly pushing it up and down. The tension, the resistance, I realize is because I'm trying to oppose the natural way of how things are, through my mental fabrications... I'm still learning and I too, realize that I really don't know anything. All I can do is to do my best in upholding the N8P...
This world really burns. It can seem beautiful sometimes, I admit... There are times where I become really grateful for everything, feeling as if I was unified and expansive. Then there are also times where I feel like extending outwards drains me, trying to reach and constantly achieve something drains me...
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...I just want peace...
Just attend to the charisms, and keep the mind still. That is all any mystic need do.
... So really to retreat and calm the mind again and again has been my week-long endeavor. To attend to the charisms...
Good work.
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Can anyone recall what its like to catch a plastic bag in a windstorm? The bag will flare up with the wind-burst and run away. You chase after it, because you need this bag, it will hold something for you at a later time. You get just within grasp of the fucker and another wind-burst carries it away once again. It comes to a point where one must sprint after it and stomp on it just to keep hold of it. Even then, if firm grasp isnt held on this bag, the next wind-burst could carry it out of grasp once again.
Now imagine this bag is the size of a parachute. It can comfort you, or provide warmth, like a blanket. It can shelter you from the rain or snow; become your home. Now imagine firm grasp on this bag in a hell of a windstorm. It could slam you around or become hung up on a tree; leaving your feet dangling and unable to touch the ground. It could carry you on the currents of the wind as far as the eye could see and beyond. If you do not know that the wind storm is coming, all you can do is be swept away, left at its mercy until it subsides; or you can let go. If you do know it's coming, and for reasons that seem absurd, decide to stay; what then? Do you pack it up neatly and tuck it away, leave it stored away until it is needed again? Do you let it go? Or do you hold onto it and prepare for the beating?
The wind storm will always come.
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Good metaphor, Cal. We should always keep this in mind when we lose track of the charisms and have trouble returning to them. The world and the mind are like a howling wind, so do not get caught up into them.
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I know in the past I have put emphasis on locations across the world. I was reading an article http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/royal-road-king-world-and-ancient-center-earth-005162 (http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/royal-road-king-world-and-ancient-center-earth-005162) on the Royal Road and the Ancient center of the earth. Sedona, AZ, happened to be a location included in this article. I found it interesting that you live in Sedona haha.
What made you choose Sedona, Jeff? I know in the past I have had a feeling to certain places, holy place even. Much like the pyramids and ancient temples across the world have certain astrological alignments etc. I have felt there to be some significance, especially in iconography, in some of these locations. This fascinated me a great deal in the earliest parts after my awakening.
Radon and diabetes aside, what makes Sedona special? I'd like to think that after getting to know you, youre not one to waste effort needlessly, so I would think there is something and that you chose Sedona as your place of residence.
Apologies if I presume too much, as climate is probably a factor as well.
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I know in the past I have put emphasis on locations across the world. I was reading an article http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/royal-road-king-world-and-ancient-center-earth-005162 (http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/royal-road-king-world-and-ancient-center-earth-005162) on the Royal Road and the Ancient center of the earth. Sedona, AZ, happened to be a location included in this article. I found it interesting that you live in Sedona haha...
I know in the past I have had a feeling to certain places, holy place even. Much like the pyramids and ancient temples across the world have certain astrological alignments etc. I have felt there to be some significance, especially in iconography, in some of these locations. This fascinated me a great deal in the earliest parts after my awakening.
Radon and diabetes aside, what makes Sedona special? I'd like to think that after getting to know you, youre not one to waste effort needlessly, so I would think there is something and that you chose Sedona as your place of residence.
Apologies if I presume too much, as climate is probably a factor as well.
Wherever a genuine mystic walks is sacred ground. All other claims are just marketing hype, like Sedona's so-called vortexes, makes the place nothing more than a New-Age theme park.
What made you choose Sedona, Jeff?
I did not chose Sedona. It was chosen for me by someone who claimed he was interested in funding my research. I believe he just wanted to tell single women that he funded an alternative energy research lab in Sedona.
Living in Sedona nearly broke me.
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I know in the past I have put emphasis on locations across the world. I was reading an article http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/royal-road-king-world-and-ancient-center-earth-005162 (http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/royal-road-king-world-and-ancient-center-earth-005162) on the Royal Road and the Ancient center of the earth. Sedona, AZ, happened to be a location included in this article. I found it interesting that you live in Sedona haha...
I know in the past I have had a feeling to certain places, holy place even. Much like the pyramids and ancient temples across the world have certain astrological alignments etc. I have felt there to be some significance, especially in iconography, in some of these locations. This fascinated me a great deal in the earliest parts after my awakening.
Radon and diabetes aside, what makes Sedona special? I'd like to think that after getting to know you, youre not one to waste effort needlessly, so I would think there is something and that you chose Sedona as your place of residence.
Apologies if I presume too much, as climate is probably a factor as well.
Wherever a genuine mystic walks is sacred ground. All other claims are just marketing hype, like Sedona's so-called vortexes, makes the place nothing more than a New-Age theme park.
lol I see.
What made you choose Sedona, Jeff?
I did not chose Sedona. It was chosen for me by someone who claimed he was interested in funding my research. I believe he just wanted to tell single women that he funded an alternative energy research lab in Sedona.
Living in Sedona nearly broke me.
I'm sorry to hear this =( I recall you speaking before about abusive neighbors and such.
Ok, I'll trash this idea then haha.
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Shortly after beginning to see images, shapes, "static", and golden lights in meditation I began to think of the stars as a roadmap to the inner magic that is the charisms. I had thought that they were God's way of leaving a permanent example of what to look for. So often, I find myself gazing upward at night, as it just seems so much more pristine and clear than in meditation.
But now, I think I may have gotten that backwards.
"Look, you have been told everything. Lift up your eyes and look at the cloud and the light within it and the stars surrounding it. The star that leads the way is your star." Judas lifted up his eyes and saw the luminous cloud, and he entered it."
Even after reading this I still thought "Man, he MUST be speaking about the OOBE and meditation." I even feel a correlation in "the star that leads the way is your star" to the Kasina. I have always felt that the Kasina is a very intimate part of myself. The luminous cloud and the surrounding stars is something that I get hung up on though. As during the day, in deep meditation, I see a golden hued luminous cloud that breaks through the dark back-drop before it forms a Kasina and whisks away... But at night, I see it a bit differently, its more like a dark back-drop full of sparkles, or static (like from a TV with poor connection), or even stars. So how could they be there at the same time?
While reading here on the forum I came across an excellent essay written by Jhanananda http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/non-materialdomains.htm (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/non-materialdomains.htm) that put this topic into a clearer perspective; or rather turned it upon its head haha, as now I need to rethink many things.
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I agree, Cal. I found when reading ancient religious, or contemplative, literature in translation that the translations might not be quite right, especially when it comes to descriptions of the religious experience. So, like you, I found the quote in the gospel of Judas, and the book of Ezekiel, better explained by my interior experience of the OOBE, Kasina, etc. than as examples of alien space ships.
I also agree with you that the stars and moon in the night sky may very well have a subjective counterpart in our subjective interior world.
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I am about to give the internet up all together. I'm getting so tired of being distracted by "sex". Every page a I visit there is an image of a half naked woman, and I can't help but let my thoughts wander. Having to remind myself that there is much more fulfilling aspects to this life than chasing tail has become tiresome. So, I think ill limit the time I spend "surfing".
Meditations lately have been fruitful, but painful. I have been focusing more on attending the charisms outside of meditation, rather than employing distractions, as in the past, this has helped get past what was making them painful. I'm at a point where something feels close, but just out of reach, I'm looking forward to learning what it is.
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I find when I keep my mind still, and my attention upon the charisms, then my mind become unshakable. Perhaps you will find the same result.
Please let us know what wonderful thing you find in greater depth of meditation.
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I find little evidence that any of the Egyptian pharaohs, or their priests, or their artists, had any experience in deep meditation. What I see in past advanced cultures is a hegemonic leadership praying upon the peasants for wealth and power, and using a pretentious and hypocritical priesthood to facilitate that control. Nonetheless, those who practice deep meditation and the OOBE might have such experiences as described by the painting.
I was reading the prologue to The Dark Night of the Soul and I found it interesting that John of the Cross placed some correlation in ancient Egyptian text "if we read them aright by the light flashed on them by the Kabbala". I found it interesting that he later noted that Jews actually originated from Egypt.
It left me pondering why I was stuck looking at this image that I had posted earlier, and thought to give it a second inspection. http://imgur.com/iM5LWtJ (http://imgur.com/iM5LWtJ) I added some notes to my contemplation of it, I am curious what others may think.
This is a quote from
14. Above, the gemmed azure is
The naked splendour of Nuit;
She bends in ecstasy to kiss
The secret ardours of Hadit.
The winged globe, the starry blue,
Are mine, O Ankh-af-na-khonsu!
15. Now ye shall know that the chosen priest & apostle of infinite space is the prince-priest the Beast; and in his woman called the Scarlet Woman is all power given. They shall gather my children into their fold: they shall bring the glory of the stars into the hearts of men.
16. For he is ever a sun, and she a moon. But to him is the winged secret flame, and to her the stooping starlight.
Now while I havent taken the time to actually look deeply into his ramblings, I do see some similarity here as well; and this isnt the only one that I see in this book.
Another thought is to the symbol on the moon, that I initially thought was the star of david, which points to the Jews, but later found it to be the Arabic Star of rub el hizb, which adorns the flag of several Islamic states, and may yet still point to the Jews.
There is also my own meditations and experiences with odd imagery and such that also correlates to this.
There were also feelings to watching videos of Egyptian architecture and iconography.
I think there is something to these ancient Egyptians, or rather at some point there was esoteric knowledge hidden in their scriptures/culture/architecture. While I cannot disagree with you or what you've found, Jeff, I can't help but notice how often something has lead me to exploring them.
I may eventually venture as far to say that their lifestyle was taught to them, but this will require much more research, and many more synchronicity's. And I don't mean by space aliens haha.
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I was reading the prologue to The Dark Night of the Soul and I found it interesting that John of the Cross placed some correlation in ancient Egyptian text "if we read them aright by the light flashed on them by the Kabbala". I found it interesting that he later noted that Jews actually originated from Egypt.
The Kabbala is a Spanish mystical text that was written by a Jewish mystic, so it is not surprising that both Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross may have read it. It is also likely that possession of the Kabbala was one of the books that would get one burned at the stake, like Teresa of Avila's grand father.
14. Above, the gemmed azure is
The naked splendour of Nuit;
She bends in ecstasy to kiss
The secret ardours of Hadit.
The winged globe, the starry blue,
Are mine, O Ankh-af-na-khonsu!
15. Now ye shall know that the chosen priest & apostle of infinite space is the prince-priest the Beast; and in his woman called the Scarlet Woman is all power given. They shall gather my children into their fold: they shall bring the glory of the stars into the hearts of men.
16. For he is ever a sun, and she a moon. But to him is the winged secret flame, and to her the stooping starlight.
The priest will be a reference to John of the Cross and the woman is a reference to Teresa of Avila. The stars are what people believed were angles before Galileo pointed his telescope at the night sky and reported his findings.
Now while I havent taken the time to actually look deeply into his ramblings, I do see some similarity here as well; and this isnt the only one that I see in this book.
Another thought is to the symbol on the moon, that I initially thought was the star of david, which points to the Jews, but later found it to be the Arabic Star of rub el hizb, which adorns the flag of several Islamic states, and may yet still point to the Jews.
The star that you refer to is Venus.
There is also my own meditations and experiences with odd imagery and such that also correlates to this.
There were also feelings to watching videos of Egyptian architecture and iconography.
I think there is something to these ancient Egyptians, or rather at some point there was esoteric knowledge hidden in their scriptures/culture/architecture. While I cannot disagree with you or what you've found, Jeff, I can't help but notice how often something has lead me to exploring them.
I may eventually venture as far to say that their lifestyle was taught to them, but this will require much more research, and many more synchronicity's. And I don't mean by space aliens haha.
As an anthropologist who has studied mystics in a broad range of cultures, it is clear to me that every culture has its mystics. The problem is every culture has its religion, with its pretentious priesthood, who invariably screw up the enlightened message of the mystic-founder; and the monumental religious architecture of the world only serves to reinforce that pretentious priesthood and the hegemonic ruler behind them, who funds the construction of monumental religious architecture.