Craving is suffering, its recognition, Abidhamma, Visudhimagga, vipasana, suttas

[nkrivosh]

Hi Jeff,

From having spent some time with you, reading your posts other peoples commentary, could you comment on the following.

From reading many sections of this discussionhttp://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1610504?_19_redirect=%2Fweb%2Fguest%2Fdiscussion%2F-%2Fmessage_boards%2Fsearch%3F_19_redirect%3D%252Fweb%252Fguest%252Fdiscussion%26_19_breadcrumbsCategoryId%3D0%26_19_searchCategoryIds%3D0%26_19_keywords%3Djhananda . One of the critisisms you received on there was the lack of emphasis on the origin of suffering, its recognition, and liberation from it. Now I know that you focus on the liberation aspect, and that in your view liberation comes through a rigorous meditation practice where one experiences absorbtion jhanas on a daily basis as part of a lifestyle. But, from our discussions, i dont think we talked much about the origin of suffering and its recognition in the mind. If one were to really be able to recognize the suffering/craving (free of its potential objects such as lust for..., being (image of self), hatred for... aversion to..., anger at..., or craving for any object) as it arose in the mind, wouldn't it be fair to assume that he would also be able to let it go and be liberated from it? This has been my experience, and becomes possible only after a long intensive retreat, but sometimes is also possible just after a short but good daily meditation.

From my experience - to recognize suffering in the manner described above, one would have to have a base of strong mindfulness, alertness, peace, calm mind, and a very balanced and stable mind (equanimity).

I came across this  video from 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4ixuxD2nU0 where Vimalaramsi discusses the origins of Abhidhamma, Vissudhimagga, and vipassana. I know that you've had some disagreements with him in the past, but your comment on this would be helpful. In the video, Vimalaramsi says that the problem with "absorbtion/concentration" as he puts it, is that while in that state, the hindrances do not arise, and this prevents one from recognizing hindrances as they arise. He also says that by following the suttas one will expereince insight and jhanas at the same time. The video is at times confusing as I wasnt sure if he was describing that which he was criticizing or that which he believed to be correct. In the beginning part of the video he references a type of "absorption/concentration" which is not conducive to the ability to recognize hindrances. I understand this as being of the type of concentration when the mind attaches itself to an object and sticks to it until all other phenomena disappear from awareness. I equate this with what I understand to be kasina meditation. Please correct me if I am wrong or my understanding is incorrect. Also please expand on your view of the origin of suffering, its causes, and its recognition. And the significance of this in the entire scope of spiritual practice/end goal.

In the end Vimalaramsi goes on to say  that Vipassana does not lead to nibbana, and encourages everyone to look at the suttas.   

[Jhanananda]

Good to hear from you Nikita, and to receive an inquiry that shows that you are doing some homework.  Now, one cannot be lazy, if one wants to attain full liberation in this very lifetime.  So, it is good that you are looking at how others view the dhamma.  Now, we have to dig below the belief system to see how it pays off.

In the case of dhamma over ground I was flamed and accuse falsely of many things.  The back-story on why I was flamed by the moderator himself, and even accused of not understanding the first noble truth, which to me is kindergarten, is because they think that all 8 stages of samadhi are just a mental exercise, so there we see them all talking about how last night after a stop at the pub, and a few hours of videos games they went home and meditated to the 8th samadhi.  While they claim that they are into "hardcore meditation practice," all it is there, is hard core mental games.

I asked these people if any of them could still their mind, and not one of them could.  I said, the 2nd samadhi is stilling the mind, it is the gateway to the rest of the stages of samadhi.  That is when the flame-war started.

So, what do you think?  Do you think someone who can still his mind, understands craving?  I think so, because one who craves cannot still his mind.

Now Vimilaramsi has invented something that you, and everyone else, finds confusing, which is a belief in something that he calls "absorption concentration" verses "concentration."  Well, the problem here is Vimilaramsi thinks samadhi is concentration.  Anyone who thinks samadhi is concentration has obviously never experienced it, because it is defined in the suttas in ecstatic terms such as: bliss, joy ecstasy.  So, how much bliss, joy ecstasy and the other fruit (phala) do you read about in Vimilaramsi's work?

So, keep in mind that we all know a tree by its fruit.  What fruit am I known for? Verses what fruit are Vimilaramsi and the people at Dharma Overground known for?  So, do not be lazy.  Dig below the belief system to see how it pays off.  What fruit does it bare? Investigate the translations of the suttas that you are reading to make sure the translator's bias is consistent with Siddharta Gautama's bias.  And, most of all, take it into meditation practice.  Still your mind, and see what fruit it bares.

[Michel]

Jhananda:

... Do you think someone who can still his mind, understands craving?  I think so, because one who craves cannot still his mind.

Do you mean by this that one, who while meditating, craves for a good meditation cannot still his mind? When I meditate I try to be content with whatever happens and savor the moment. I think this is antidote to craving in meditation.

[Jhanananda]

Yes, I agree, Michel.  One of the obstacles that I see people who take an interest in meditating, like me, is they tend to crave the fantastic meditation experience, and loose sight of the fact that the religious experience is developmental.  I have been leading a fruitful contemplative life for more than forty years.  One cannot expect to have attainments at my level over night.

One has to start with the 1st stage of the religious experience, and master it, before one can master the second stage, etc.  The first stage of the religious experience is finding pleasure, contentment and fulfillment; or in other words, bliss and joy in the contemplative life.  One must find it a refuge.  When one finds meditation at depth a refuge, then one will find deeper levels of the religious experience.

When one takes refuge in meditation at depth, then one will find it easy to still the mind.  When one takes refuge in a still mind, then one will find it easy to come to equanimity.  Equanimity is the 3rd stage of the religious experience, and so forth to the 8th stage of the religious experience (samadhi).  One cannot start at 8.

[nkrivosh]

Hi Jeff, thanks for the response, but I feel that you didnt respond to any of my questions. I will repost them below.
 

from our discussions, i dont think we talked much about the origin of suffering and its recognition in the mind. If one were to really be able to recognize the suffering/craving (free of its potential objects such as lust for..., being (image of self), hatred for... aversion to..., anger at..., or craving for any object) as it arose in the mind, wouldn't it be fair to assume that he would also be able to let it go and be liberated from it? This has been my experience, and becomes possible only after a long intensive retreat, but sometimes is also possible just after a short but good daily meditation.

From my experience - to recognize suffering in the manner described above, one would have to have a base of strong mindfulness, alertness, peace, calm mind, and a very balanced and stable mind (equanimity).

Do you agree with my analasis there?

the type of concentration when the mind attaches itself to an object and sticks to it until all other phenomena disappear from awareness. I equate this with what I understand to be kasina meditation. Please correct me if I am wrong or my understanding is incorrect.

This is the type of absorbtion which does not lead to insight in regards to how hindrances arise. Do you agree with this?

please expand on your view of the origin of suffering, its causes, and its recognition.

Thank you.

[Jhanananda]

Hi Jeff, thanks for the response, but I feel that you didnt respond to any of my questions. I will repost them below...Thank you.

Don't be lazy Nikita.  Just still your mind, when your mind is still there is no craving.  Overcoming craving is not a mind game. If you want to read what I have written on the 4NT and N8P, then please read the following thread.  It should explain things far batter for you.
The Noble Eightfold Path

[Jhanananda]

This morning I started asking myself the question, "Why, after months of no posting here, would Nikita suddenly post a link from Dharma Overground that is a long list of false accusations toward me?" 

If Nikita was interested in my perspective on the Four Noble Truths, then he could have all too easily searched the GWV website, and this forum, on that topic, and he would have found this list of links on the subject:

Jhanananda on the Four Noble Truth

http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,602.msg2067.html#msg2067
http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,555.msg1685.html#msg1685
http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg1823.html#msg1823
http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,564.msg1729.html#msg1729
http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,459.msg1342.html#msg1342
http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,88.msg291.html#msg291
http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php?topic=41.0
http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php?topic=8.5;wap2

Understanding Dependent Origination (paticca samuppada)
Four Noble Truths
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/dependentorigination.htm

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/neoadvaitanism.htm
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/ethics.htm
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/satipatthanasutta.htm
www.greatwesternvehicle.org/guidance.htm
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/painvssuffering.htm
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/mahasatipatthanasutta.htm
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/responsetomahayana.htm
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/goenka.htm
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/goenka.htm

However, Nikita did not search the GWV website or forum, instead he searched the Dharma Overground forum.  It just so happens that Daniel Ingram invited me to his forum, the Dharma Overground forum, a few years ago.  I joined the forum and found that they dialoged about jhana quite a bit, so at first I thought I had found a friend in the dhamma.  However, once I arrived there I found their concept of jhana is that it is just a mental exercise that they engage in, like a mental video game.

I then asked if any of them could still their mind.  Not one of them reported that they could do so.  If they cannot still their mind, which is only the second jhana, then they obviously are not experiencing jhana.  When I reported that to them, is when I found myself flamed by everyone, and Daniel Ingram started falsely accusing me of being abusive, and not understanding the Four Noble Truths.  I saw through his charade at that point and realized he had invited me to his forum just to abuse me.  I left a few links to my work, before I was banned.

So, the explanation for why Nikita suddenly posted a link from Dharma Overground that is a long list of false accusations toward me, is because he is just a naive devotee of Goenka, and he is deeply offended by my criticism of his "Goenkaji."

Also, the increased number of case histories that are now coming into this forum from people who are having genuine religious experiences during meditation, apparently cause Nikita is feel insecure that he has never had a deep meditation, and it makes him feel bad that others find it so easy.  I guess that means he has craving, jhana-envy. People who have genuine religious experiences tend to make the naive true-believers of the world feel insecure.

So this is an object lesson for all genuine mystics. You will be hounded mercilessly by the naive true believers of the world, unless you can form a community of fellow genuine mystics.  Now, I have been working on forming a community of fellow genuine mystics for 40 years, and this is the best I can do.  The reason why I have not been able to do much on community building among mystics, is trying to get them all to build a community is like herding cats.

Now, the problem with the genuine mystics of the world, is if you never join into community (sangha) together, you will for ever be hounded and persecuted by mainstream, fundamentalist, true-believers everywhere; who believe that it is their mission in life to suppress mystics, who they believe corrupt the truth of the progenitor.

So, Nikita has lost his posting privileges here for disruptive posting.  Nikita came to live with me for a few months, and he did help me out physically. However, at no time has he ever demonstrated that he has any idea whatsoever of jhana, nor did he demonstrate that he understood what I was teaching.

[Alexander]

However, at no time has he ever demonstrated that he has any idea whatsoever of jhana, nor did he demonstrate that he understood what I was teaching.

I would think anyone with a potential for the Siddhis, just being around you long enough, would start to acquire them. Although yesterday I was considering your teaching methods, which you might find interesting:

Apart from you I used to learn quite a bit from a few esotericists over the web. These were people connected to the Gurdjieff work. Keep in mind not one of them was an arahant, but the senior people were nonreturners, and had some good things to say.

Their methods were very different from yours. They were always very systematic; very exclusive; very critical. Whenever a newcomer came to them, he had to be tested, questioned, and put through a furnace. The goal was to make clear on what level that person was on: to see if that person had fancies that had to be taken apart.

You are universally accepting; always want to help; and try to understand what people say from their POV. That approach, for an isolated mystic who comes to you, is phenomenal. But, at the same time, it can be an approach that indulges people - and for those without viveka, who are pretending that they're spiritually accomplished, that is not useful for them at all.

In my opinion, one of the critical things about being a mystic is the violence of it. "The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force," says Christ; and, "he who does not hate himself, cannot be my disciple." An antipathy for ourselves, and for this world in general, have to be driving forces of our progress. If those are not there, and if we are not critical, then we are not going anywhere.

[Jhanananda]

I would think anyone with a potential for the Siddhis, just being around you long enough, would start to acquire them.

Actually most of the time that would be true.  However, in this case this person seemed to be resistant from the start. 

Although yesterday I was considering your teaching methods, which you might find interesting:

Apart from you I used to learn quite a bit from a few esotericists over the web. These were people connected to the Gurdjieff work. Keep in mind not one of them was an arahant, but the senior people were nonreturners, and had some good things to say.

Their methods were very different from yours. They were always very systematic; very exclusive; very critical. Whenever a newcomer came to them, he had to be tested, questioned, and put through a furnace. The goal was to make clear on what level that person was on: to see if that person had fancies that had to be taken apart.

Thank-you aglorincz, for posting your interesting critique.  On my journey I passed through several followers of Gurdjieff.  From my experience Gurdjieff was not complete.  He only had part of the picture, so his followers only have part of it.  Also, Gurdjieff was harsh, so his followers think that they have to be harsh.  I do not like having to be harsh. 

I like to teach by example, but I am also systematic, and guide the person through unpacking their belief systems, while bringing them into the charisms.  The reason why I use this method, is people cannot understand the path to enlightenment until they have stilled their mind.  To still the mind often one has to unpack one's belief systems, but doing so requires insight, and insight requires stilling the mind, and developing the religious experience (samadhi).  When people begin to have religious experiences (samadhi), then they have proof the method and philosophy is correct, then they are motivated to begin questioning their belief systems.

However, in this case, I think, I was just too kind and patient with him.  He seems to need harsh methods, which I am not comfortable with, but I can do it.

You are universally accepting; always want to help; and try to understand what people say from their POV. That approach, for an isolated mystic who comes to you, is phenomenal. But, at the same time, it can be an approach that indulges people - and for those without viveka, who are pretending that they're spiritually accomplished, that is not useful for them at all.

I agree with you, I work best with people who have already found the charisms, but have found no one to help them.  Trying to turn lead into gold, or a rock into spirit, will have to be someone elses work.

In my opinion, one of the critical things about being a mystic is the violence of it. "The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force," says Christ; and, "he who does not hate himself, cannot be my disciple." An antipathy for ourselves, and for this world in general, have to be driving forces of our progress. If those are not there, and if we are not critical, then we are not going anywhere.

Yes, spirit purifies us, and it can be quite violent.  It is the fire that burns away the lead to expose the gold.  This person in question has had it too easy, so he is lazy, so he has not developed discrimination and critical thinking (viveka).  There is nothing I can do for him until he is willing to unpack his belief systems, and still his mind.

[Michel]

Quote from: aglorincz on Today at 04:00:00 AM

You are universally accepting; always want to help; and try to understand what people say from their POV. That approach, for an isolated mystic who comes to you, is phenomenal. But, at the same time, it can be an approach that indulges people - and for those without viveka, who are pretending that they're spiritually accomplished, that is not useful for them at all.

I must say that I share in sentiment with what aglorincz says here. Jhananda, you have been patient, generous, and kind toward me, and many others here as well. So I am very thankful and appreciative, and full of respect for all that you have done.

[Jhanananda]

Thank-you Michel, aglorincz, et al, for expressing your appreciation and support for the work of the GWV, because otherwise all people read is the character assassination of the fundamentalist true believers, like Mike Olds, Daniel Ingram, and Nikita, who go out of their way to assassinate my character, instead of learning to live and let live.