Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Contemplative Blogs => : bodhimind February 15, 2015, 04:45:43 PM
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I figured I should continue in this thread instead of the Case Histories thread because it seems more apt.
In one meditation, I felt so disconnected with my body that I could not feel anything in my body or mind. However, if I opened my eyes, I could still see, just that everything seemed so vividly clear. It felt very spacious and empty, as if I did not have a body.
In another meditation, I decided to try open-eyed meditation just to get a feel of how it would be like to retreat from the senses. Even I close my eyes, the sight I see is an "absence of light". I've always been interpreting it as "nothing", but it seems like there is not much difference between opening or closing my eyes. I find that opening my eyes allowed me to understand this. Also, when I experienced the light coming it, it saturated the whole view of the room. If my eyes were closed, it would be more of a "light swallowing my whole being" kind of thing.
In a third meditation, I decided to just allow the thoughts to dwindle away. I would just focus on "letting go", while keeping this inner stillness inside. I found that in this manner, I experienced bliss and joy of the first jhana extremely quickly, much, much more quickly than using a meditation object. The ringing charism also increased to quite a loud intensity.
I guess one realization is that it is almost as if the external senses are always "there". If the awareness is brought to them, it is almost as if I "imagine these senses to be myself" when it is clearly not. The thoughts are also always swarming around like bees, but when I don't put my awareness into them, they dwindle away.
Also, I've found that I was able to suddenly grasp myself that I was sleeping in the middle of the night, as if I was trying to put myself into "oblivion" by unconscious sleep, then I was suspended in a half-lucid state where my mind was very bright, almost as if I was meditating.
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Also, I realized that my father and I had the same dream in a night. We were both chasing after the Buddha but he was just so fast that we could not keep up... almost as if he was gliding or something. I remember the lushness of the forest and how vivid it was. When I told him about the dream he was quite surprised because I described the same details to him. Do you think it is possible that two people can be in the same "dream-realm" unknowingly? I was thinking that it might be possible that it is a hallucination, but the fact that my father saw the same thing made me question it again.
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I figured I should continue in this thread instead of the Case Histories thread because it seems more apt.
In one meditation, I felt so disconnected with my body that I could not feel anything in my body or mind. However, if I opened my eyes, I could still see, just that everything seemed so vividly clear. It felt very spacious and empty, as if I did not have a body.
This could be the 4th jhana.
In another meditation, I decided to try open-eyed meditation just to get a feel of how it would be like to retreat from the senses. Even I close my eyes, the sight I see is an "absence of light". I've always been interpreting it as "nothing", but it seems like there is not much difference between opening or closing my eyes. I find that opening my eyes allowed me to understand this. Also, when I experienced the light coming it, it saturated the whole view of the room. If my eyes were closed, it would be more of a "light swallowing my whole being" kind of thing.
I find open eyed meditation is conducive to standing and walking meditation. There I defocus my eyes so that I am not distracted by all of the content of my environment.
In a third meditation, I decided to just allow the thoughts to dwindle away. I would just focus on "letting go", while keeping this inner stillness inside. I found that in this manner, I experienced bliss and joy of the first jhana extremely quickly, much, much more quickly than using a meditation object. The ringing charism also increased to quite a loud intensity.
When your mind is still, and you are experiencing bliss, and joy, then you are in the 2nd jhana.
I guess one realization is that it is almost as if the external senses are always "there". If the awareness is brought to them, it is almost as if I "imagine these senses to be myself" when it is clearly not. The thoughts are also always swarming around like bees, but when I don't put my awareness into them, they dwindle away.
Yes, the definition of identity as described in the suttas is defined by the 5 aggregates, which includes the senses.
Also, I've found that I was able to suddenly grasp myself that I was sleeping in the middle of the night, as if I was trying to put myself into "oblivion" by unconscious sleep, then I was suspended in a half-lucid state where my mind was very bright, almost as if I was meditating.
As we learn to meditate deeply, lucidity in sleep rises which appears as light in our dreams.
Also, I realized that my father and I had the same dream in a night. We were both chasing after the Buddha but he was just so fast that we could not keep up... almost as if he was gliding or something. I remember the lushness of the forest and how vivid it was. When I told him about the dream he was quite surprised because I described the same details to him. Do you think it is possible that two people can be in the same "dream-realm" unknowingly? I was thinking that it might be possible that it is a hallucination, but the fact that my father saw the same thing made me question it again.
Carl Young used a term for dreams, which was the "collective unconscious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious)." This happens to describe my experience of being a lucid dreamer. The lucid dreamer enters the dream world lucidly; whereas, most others are unconscious there. Thus, all of the beings that we interact with in dreams, and the OOBE are other beings, not just mental projections.
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Thank you for the clarifications...
Carl Young used a term for dreams, which was the "collective unconscious." This happens to describe my experience of being a lucid dreamer. The lucid dreamer enters the dream world lucidly; whereas, most others are unconscious there. Thus, all of the beings that we interact with in dreams, and the OOBE are other beings, not just mental projections.
Does this mean that when I experienced that dream with my father, I was literally in the same dream-realm with him? (Given that he experienced it as well)
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I've been consistently varying between 3rd and 4th. Once I get into 4th, I rarely jump out again any more. But the problem is that sometimes I cannot get into 4th, it feels almost like some switch has been flicked when I transit from third to fourth.
Will just continue to work on my meditation. I seem to have incorporated the habit of maintaining my state in daily life, no matter what I am doing. I still do have certain spikes, but I realize them fast enough now and immediately correct myself.
One of my recent meditations was a little different. I found what works for me is to just continue letting go and letting go, as if everything that surfaces is a hotel guest and if I don't pay attention to them, they leave, allowing my mind to brighten and the charisms to surface. I still discern the factors, but I do not add nor subtract, it is as if the whole thing is natural, as if muddy water is coming to a rest.
When I did this, a very, very warm blissfulness wrapped around my body. I felt some pains and some prickling and some itchiness that spread throughout my body. Then my body seemed as if it was pulled upwards and my spine "elongated" and had some kind of a freezing experience. It didn't feel warm as in "hot", but so warm that it was almost cool. I don't know how to explain it... Do you know what is happening here?
It was almost... mental? I didn't feel any stress from my body.
When I got out of meditation, I felt so amazingly refreshed, as if every single tension was released from the body... and some part of my mind.
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I've been reading the texts of some of NHJ's students and I think I've found another answer (to the question of whether the breathing ceases or not) very similar to what Jhanananda has talked about. I'll give a good translation below:
Master Nan took off his top, and on his forehead was attached several examination devices. The doctors told Nan, "Now, think normally. (Or out of samadhi)." After a while, the doctors told him, "Now please stop your thoughts." The device reading showed a straight line, without a single movement in the brainwave. Doctor Zhou took a fright and everyone could not believe their eyes.
I remember Jhanananda said that his breathing (or pulse?) ceased in deep samadhi. It seems to be the case where even brainwaves cannot be detected when a person is in deep samadhi, which quite supports the case that the physical body is really not part of the meditation experience... Not even the brain's activity.
But this is quite troubling. What if the doctors misdiagnosed people as "brain-dead" or vegetative states, when they were simply in states of deep samadhi? There is also the Lazarus syndrome, where people wake up in morgues/cold rooms/funerals after being pronounced dead hours before. Or maybe it is just the work of karma?
Another strange commonality that I've found is that he tends to like expressing himself in poetic expression. Do you think that poetic expression is somewhat related? It's also a known fact that Chan masters (especially in ancient China) used to always write poems to express their thoughts, such as this one:
Originally Bodhi has no tree,
The bright mirror has no stand.
Originally there is not a single thing:
Where can dust alight?
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Thank you for the clarifications...
You are welcome.
Does this mean that when I experienced that dream with my father, I was literally in the same dream-realm with him? (Given that he experienced it as well)
This is how I take such "parallel" dream experiences. I have had many such "parallel" dream experiences. One of the ways I communicated with my children was for us to discuss our dreams over breakfast. Most people do not do this, so they have little inspiration to recall their dreams, or find out that they have had "parallel" dream experiences with family members.
I've been consistently varying between 3rd and 4th. Once I get into 4th, I rarely jump out again any more.
This is very good. is because you
But the problem is that sometimes I cannot get into 4th, it feels almost like some switch has been flicked when I transit from third to fourth.
Practice makes perfect. If you meditate often and deeply, then eventually you will drop right into the 4th stage of the meditation experience.
Will just continue to work on my meditation. I seem to have incorporated the habit of maintaining my state in daily life, no matter what I am doing. I still do have certain spikes, but I realize them fast enough now and immediately correct myself.
Yes, this is the saturation phase, which is needed to drop right into whatever level we consistently drop into when we meditate. It requires that we keep with us the features of that stage. For instance: to drop right into the 1st stage of the meditation experience we need to keep with us the bliss and joy with us most of the day that we get from deep meditation experience. To drop right into the 2nd stage of the meditation experience, then we need to keep with us all day the bliss and joy and tranquil still mind of the 2nd stage of the meditation experience. Thus, to drop right into the 3rd stage of the meditation experience, then we need to keep with us all day the bliss and joy and tranquil still mind, and equanimity of the 3rd stage of the meditation experience. And, finally, to drop right into the 4th stage of the meditation experience, then we need to keep with us all day the bliss and joy and tranquil still mind, and equanimity, as well as freedom from anxiety of the 4th stage of the meditation experience.
One of my recent meditations was a little different. I found what works for me is to just continue letting go and letting go, as if everything that surfaces is a hotel guest and if I don't pay attention to them, they leave, allowing my mind to brighten and the charisms to surface. I still discern the factors, but I do not add nor subtract, it is as if the whole thing is natural, as if muddy water is coming to a rest.
When I did this, a very, very warm blissfulness wrapped around my body. I felt some pains and some prickling and some itchiness that spread throughout my body. Then my body seemed as if it was pulled upwards and my spine "elongated" and had some kind of a freezing experience. It didn't feel warm as in "hot", but so warm that it was almost cool. I don't know how to explain it... Do you know what is happening here?
It was almost... mental? I didn't feel any stress from my body.
When I got out of meditation, I felt so amazingly refreshed, as if every single tension was released from the body... and some part of my mind.
Yes, this is how it works, we just learn to let go at a very deep level, which is very relaxing, and the meditation experience unfolds on its own. The elongating spine, and warmth, and riveting experience, which you called "freezing" are all a characteristic of the calm phase of the rising of the kundalini. Very good.
I've been reading the texts of some of NHJ's students and I think I've found another answer (to the question of whether the breathing ceases or not) very similar to what Jhanananda has talked about. I'll give a good translation below:
Master Nan took off his top, and on his forehead was attached several examination devices. The doctors told Nan, "Now, think normally. (Or out of samadhi)." After a while, the doctors told him, "Now please stop your thoughts." The device reading showed a straight line, without a single movement in the brainwave. Doctor Zhou took a fright and everyone could not believe their eyes.
I remember Jhanananda said that his breathing (or pulse?) ceased in deep samadhi. It seems to be the case where even brainwaves cannot be detected when a person is in deep samadhi, which quite supports the case that the physical body is really not part of the meditation experience... Not even the brain's activity.
But this is quite troubling. What if the doctors misdiagnosed people as "brain-dead" or vegetative states, when they were simply in states of deep samadhi? There is also the Lazarus syndrome, where people wake up in morgues/cold rooms/funerals after being pronounced dead hours before. Or maybe it is just the work of karma?
It is possible that when the thought are stilled, then there will be no brain activity; however, I do nto believe it, because it would mean that the anatomical processes will have also stopped, which is not likely for a person who is still alive; however, you do bring up the Lazarus syndrome as supporting evidence. The problem is no one who has done research into meditation has ever examined anyone who meditates deeply, so we just do not know until one who meditates deeply is examined.
Another strange commonality that I've found is that he tends to like expressing himself in poetic expression. Do you think that poetic expression is somewhat related? It's also a known fact that Chan masters (especially in ancient China) used to always write poems to express their thoughts, such as this one:
Originally Bodhi has no tree,
The bright mirror has no stand.
Originally there is not a single thing:
Where can dust alight?
Well, some mystics are poets, and some are not, but we could count Rumi, Kabir, Francis of Assisi, John of the Cross, and myself among those who are.
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One of my recent meditations was a little different. I found what works for me is to just continue letting go and letting go, as if everything that surfaces is a hotel guest and if I don't pay attention to them, they leave, allowing my mind to brighten and the charisms to surface. I still discern the factors, but I do not add nor subtract, it is as if the whole thing is natural, as if muddy water is coming to a rest.
When I did this, a very, very warm blissfulness wrapped around my body. I felt some pains and some prickling and some itchiness that spread throughout my body. Then my body seemed as if it was pulled upwards and my spine "elongated" and had some kind of a freezing experience. It didn't feel warm as in "hot", but so warm that it was almost cool. I don't know how to explain it... Do you know what is happening here?
I have experienced this icy sensation before. I find it has wrapped itself all around my head and upper body. I cannot recall if I felt it all down my spine though, I am sure I have that written somewhere.
I remember that a few times when that happened, my thoughts and dreams were geared more towards this highly technological society, and my mother. It is strange, I find technology comes up sometimes with deep meditation, and in particular this icy sensation.
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Thank you for the advice so far. I've been on the plane back so haven't been able to update lately while I'm moving stuff, just using all the available time I have to sit down and meditate.
Just updating here, but there aren't many distinct differences in my meditations so far. I've also found that even in daily life, if I were to focus on any one task, I start to get tingles throughout my body, as if I was moving into second jhana. Just making the extra effort to remain in jhana throughout the whole day. There are some times where I do slip up, but I always bring myself back. I put reminders on my phone and around places I visit to continuously remind myself that I should be uninterested in the mundane reality of Maya and to seek solace in the inherent nature.
Reading an interesting book "Master of Self-Realization" written by Shri Sadguru Siddharameshwar Maharaj (link (http://www.amazon.com/Master-Self-Realization-Sadguru-Siddharameshwar-Maharaj/dp/0615236669)). It is a very enlightening writeup of Vedantic philosophy, although it seems as though it has incorporated the Buddhist viewpoint on the impermanence of things. It is very lucidly written, might do a review of it once I'm done.
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Thank you for the advice so far. I've been on the plane back so haven't been able to update lately while I'm moving stuff, just using all the available time I have to sit down and meditate.
You are welcome. Please excuse the delay in my reply as I am currently in the middle of moving, so yesterday I spent most of the day driving and/or unloading the truck at the new warehouse space.
Just updating here, but there aren't many distinct differences in my meditations so far. I've also found that even in daily life, if I were to focus on any one task, I start to get tingles throughout my body, as if I was moving into second jhana. Just making the extra effort to remain in jhana throughout the whole day. There are some times where I do slip up, but I always bring myself back. I put reminders on my phone and around places I visit to continuously remind myself that I should be uninterested in the mundane reality of Maya and to seek solace in the inherent nature.
This is good practice, which is reaping good results. Just keep it up for the rest of your life, and you are likely to become a full-on mystic.
Reading an interesting book "Master of Self-Realization" written by Shri Sadguru Siddharameshwar Maharaj (link (http://www.amazon.com/Master-Self-Realization-Sadguru-Siddharameshwar-Maharaj/dp/0615236669)). It is a very enlightening writeup of Vedantic philosophy, although it seems as though it has incorporated the Buddhist viewpoint on the impermanence of things. It is very lucidly written, might do a review of it once I'm done.
The record shows that mystics come regularly to the planet, so there should be a fairly rich mystical literature to select from. The thing to keep in mind, is it is not how popular the person is, but whether they demonstrate they have attained the fruit of the contemplative life. So, always look for the fruit. If you do not find it, then dump the book, and look for another one for inspiration.
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The record shows that mystics come regularly to the planet, so there should be a fairly rich mystical literature to select from. The thing to keep in mind, is it is not how popular the person is, but whether they demonstrate they have attained the fruit of the contemplative life. So, always look for the fruit. If you do not find it, then dump the book, and look for another one for inspiration.
Thank you for the reminder, I will do so.
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I had a strange experience just now when meditating. So I was doing the normal thing, holding my attention on an object, and then allowing the physical tingling to rise throughout my body.
What I felt was a violent jerk, as if I bolted back from sleep, and then right after this, my legs and hands seemed to fall asleep (I did not feel them). There was a very subtle tingling still present, but it wasn't of the body. Since I had my eyes closed, there were many lights flashing. But what scared me a little was that there were faces that just popped out in front of me. They were not fully-formed faces, but there were quite a few. I knew this was a reaction, so I immediately detached myself from that sensation. Before the faces, I somehow knew that I was looking at some landscapes.
Throughout the meditation, my body was quite full of energy. It did not feel particularly blissful, more of stillness. I don't understand why the jerk led to this though, this session felt a little different from my other meditations, where I would gradually dip into equanimity.
This is the first time I was violently interrupted in the middle of holding my attention on the object and allowing the tingles to rise. It was as if I leaped straight into stillness. Does that happen? It seemed a little abrupt.
Another thing was that I realized that I still had a very subtle breath right after the jerk, as if there was some kind of pressure against my chest. I could not exhale or inhale too much. But if I stilled my thoughts, my breath seemed to stop along with it.
I got a little disoriented after seeing the faces. Is there a way to overcome this slight discomfort?
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I had a strange experience just now when meditating. So I was doing the normal thing, holding my attention on an object, and then allowing the physical tingling to rise throughout my body.
What I felt was a violent jerk, as if I bolted back from sleep,
This sound like the classic kundalini rising.
and then right after this, my legs and hands seemed to fall asleep (I did not feel them).
The kundalini tends to arise at the 3rd jhana, then it tends to carry one deeper, so losing track of your body awareness is typical of the 4th jhana.
There was a very subtle tingling still present, but it wasn't of the body.
This sounds like the tactile charism.
Since I had my eyes closed, there were many lights flashing.
flashing lights is common for the kundalini rising.
But what scared me a little was that there were faces that just popped out in front of me. They were not fully-formed faces, but there were quite a few. I knew this was a reaction, so I immediately detached myself from that sensation. Before the faces, I somehow knew that I was looking at some landscapes.
Deep meditation states puts us in direct contact with the spiritual realm, so we can see faces and previous lifetimes, etc. The goal is to develop equanimity so that one is not frightened by the faces. We can also hear voices, etc. at this time.
Throughout the meditation, my body was quite full of energy.
Energy is a characteristic of the kundalini.
It did not feel particularly blissful, more of stillness.
people who meditate deeply on a regular basis tend to find stillness blissful.
I don't understand why the jerk led to this though,
A profound jerk is also typical of the kundalini.
this session felt a little different from my other meditations, where I would gradually dip into equanimity.
Oh, yes, the kundalini is the rocket ship blasting off, or wining the spiritual lottery. We mystic do not tend to get it every day, but from time to time. We hone our lifestyle so that we can have these more often.
This is the first time I was violently interrupted in the middle of holding my attention on the object and allowing the tingles to rise. It was as if I leaped straight into stillness. Does that happen? It seemed a little abrupt.
Yes. Some mystics call it spiritual rape by the divine.
Another thing was that I realized that I still had a very subtle breath right after the jerk, as if there was some kind of pressure against my chest. I could not exhale or inhale too much. But if I stilled my thoughts, my breath seemed to stop along with it.
Yes, the appearance of the breath stopping is typical of the 4th jhana.
I got a little disoriented after seeing the faces. Is there a way to overcome this slight discomfort?
Yes, develop equanimity.
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This sound like the classic kundalini rising.
I never expected that it would be kundalini as well, thank you for clarifying it. It was really worrying me. I did feel some anxiety when I started having those experiences after the jerk.
Deep meditation states puts us in direct contact with the spiritual realm, so we can see faces and previous lifetimes, etc. The goal is to develop equanimity so that one is not frightened by the faces. We can also hear voices, etc. at this time.
I feel like the fear spontaneously rose. How can one develop equanimity in such a way? I quite leapt from second to this experience, so I did not really go through the third. Do you mean that I should keep meditating to the third jhana to have that blissful equanimity?
Yes, the appearance of the breath stopping is typical of the 4th jhana.
I have a question about the breath though. It seems that most of the time, I would be aware of the breath in the background awareness, but it is as if I am afraid of the breath stopping, so my awareness seems to gravitate towards it. Should I here, be focusing on the kinesthetic/tactile charisms completely? I just realized that I do not actually understand what equanimity really means. I know that in the 4th, pain/pleasure is not felt. But in the 3rd, this is equanimity as well - Does this just mean the mental bliss or is there something else to this?
Yes. Some mystics call it spiritual rape by the divine.
Gosh I laughed at that one, because it really felt that way.
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I never expected that it would be kundalini as well, thank you for clarifying it. It was really worrying me. I did feel some anxiety when I started having those experiences after the jerk.
I feel like the fear spontaneously rose. How can one develop equanimity in such a way? I quite leapt from second to this experience, so I did not really go through the third. Do you mean that I should keep meditating to the third jhana to have that blissful equanimity?
Yes. Some mystics call it spiritual rape by the divine.
Gosh I laughed at that one, because it really felt that way.
Now you have just had a taste of how truly violent the experience of deep meditation can be; and why it can be so very frightening, especially when there is no one to put it into context for you. Most people go to their priest, who has never had such an experience, and the priest tells them they just had a brush with the devil, but good news for you, he can deposess you for a fee, a very high fee.
I have a question about the breath though. It seems that most of the time, I would be aware of the breath in the background awareness,
The breath will be in the background up through the 3rd jhana. It just ceases to be a focusing mechanism by the time one stills the mind in the 2nd jhana. When the charisms begin to arise in the 3rdf jhana, then one attends to the charisms as if they are the new meditation object.
but it is as if I am afraid of the breath stopping, so my awareness seems to gravitate towards it.
Fear is the primary obstacle to deep meditation, after the mind. Most people and priests never make it past the fear, and drop back their meditation to a level that does not trigger the charisms.
Should I here, be focusing on the kinesthetic/tactile charisms completely?
If you want enlightenment in this very lifetime, then you will learn to use all of the charisms as an object of meditation. Doing so will take you deeper without you doing anything, because the deep meditation experience is a natural process.
I just realized that I do not actually understand what equanimity really means. I know that in the 4th, pain/pleasure is not felt. But in the 3rd, this is equanimity as well - Does this just mean the mental bliss or is there something else to this?
As I keep pointing out, almost no priest of any religion understands deep meditation, thus the translations of the Pali Canon are hopelessly as screwed up as every translation of the bible is screwed up.
The 3rd stage of the experience of deep meditation (3rd jhana) is characterized by the arising of equanimity, as well as the arising of the charisms. The experience of equanimity in deep meditation is to experience a very rich sensory field with no mental involvement in it at all. There is no interpreting of the sensory experience here. The sensory experience is purely raw, and one may not even be aware of what the sensations are until after the meditation session is over.
If one never develops a still mind, and equanimity by the time the charisms begin to arise, then one may be driven crazy by the arising charisms, which the untrained mind will be trying to interpret. When the untrained mind tries to interpret the charisms, then one interprets the charismatic sound as voices, and the charismatic tactile sensations as bugs crawling on the body, and the charismatic luminosity as faces; all of which will drive one crazy. So, one must focus upon stilling the mind, and developing equanimity as one develops the deep meditation experience.
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The 3rd stage of the experience of deep meditation (3rd jhana) is characterized by the arising of equanimity, as well as the arising of the charisms. The experience of equanimity in deep meditation is to experience a very rich sensory field with no mental involvement in it at all. There is no interpreting of the sensory experience here. The sensory experience is purely raw, and one may not even be aware of what the sensations are until after the meditation session is over.
If one never develops a still mind, and equanimity by the time the charisms begin to arise, then one may be driven crazy by the arising charisms, which the untrained mind will be trying to interpret. When the untrained mind tries to interpret the charisms, then one interprets the charismatic sound as voices, and the charismatic tactile sensations as bugs crawling on the body, and the charismatic luminosity as faces; all of which will drive one crazy. So, one must focus upon stilling the mind, and developing equanimity as one develops the deep meditation experience.
Thank you for putting this all into words for me. I have all this experience but I have had no way of putting it into words until I found this forum.
God bless you.
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Now you have just had a taste of how truly violent the experience of deep meditation can be; and why it can be so very frightening, especially when there is no one to put it into context for you. Most people go to their priest, who has never had such an experience, and the priest tells them they just had a brush with the devil, but good news for you, he can deposess you for a fee, a very high fee.
It really can be quite disorientating and frightening. I can see how people can be driven mad without any context.
The breath will be in the background up through the 3rd jhana. It just ceases to be a focusing mechanism by the time one stills the mind in the 2nd jhana. When the charisms begin to arise in the 3rdf jhana, then one attends to the charisms as if they are the new meditation object.
Alright, so I need to let the breath remain in the background awareness - and then put all my attention on the charisms. Will work on it. I realized that I've been switching between the charisms and the breath each moment. Maybe this is what has been impeding my progress.
As I keep pointing out, almost no priest of any religion understands deep meditation, thus the translations of the Pali Canon are hopelessly as screwed up as every translation of the bible is screwed up.
The 3rd stage of the experience of deep meditation (3rd jhana) is characterized by the arising of equanimity, as well as the arising of the charisms. The experience of equanimity in deep meditation is to experience a very rich sensory field with no mental involvement in it at all. There is no interpreting of the sensory experience here. The sensory experience is purely raw, and one may not even be aware of what the sensations are until after the meditation session is over.
If one never develops a still mind, and equanimity by the time the charisms begin to arise, then one may be driven crazy by the arising charisms, which the untrained mind will be trying to interpret. When the untrained mind tries to interpret the charisms, then one interprets the charismatic sound as voices, and the charismatic tactile sensations as bugs crawling on the body, and the charismatic luminosity as faces; all of which will drive one crazy. So, one must focus upon stilling the mind, and developing equanimity as one develops the deep meditation experience.
Thank you so much for this clarification, it really drives the third jhana into context for me. Now I see that equanimity must be developed in order to avoid interpreting these charisms. I always thought that the equanimity was simply stillness, but I never realized that the charisms arise at such a vicious magnitude that could cause so much anxiety to rise.
By stilling the mind, do you mean "detaching" yourself from the phenomena and seeing them as it is, without any attributes or interpretation? As of now, I am being carried along with these phenomena. Do you mean that you should just watch these things, not push them away, but just experience them as if one is watching the breath?
I do experience the auditory charism of ringing, and I've learnt how to "ride" that sound, but I am not very sure how one can apply that to the visual aspect. Is it more of a third-person point of view?
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Thank you for putting this all into words for me. I have all this experience but I have had no way of putting it into words until I found this forum.
God bless you.
It really can be quite disorientating and frightening. I can see how people can be driven mad without any context.
You are welcome Jay, and bodhimind. Good to know that this forum helps your contemplative life.
Alright, so I need to let the breath remain in the background awareness - and then put all my attention on the charisms. Will work on it. I realized that I've been switching between the charisms and the breath each moment. Maybe this is what has been impeding my progress.
Oh, yes, holding onto any sensory or cognitive meditation object after the first jhana will just hold back.
Thank you so much for this clarification, it really drives the third jhana into context for me. Now I see that equanimity must be developed in order to avoid interpreting these charisms. I always thought that the equanimity was simply stillness, but I never realized that the charisms arise at such a vicious magnitude that could cause so much anxiety to rise.
Yes, now you can see why people, priests, are so very terrified of the experience of deep meditation; and why amateurs run the world of meditation.
By stilling the mind, do you mean "detaching" yourself from the phenomena and seeing them as it is, without any attributes or interpretation?
The stilling of the mind is just ending the mental chatter. Pulling back from and detaching oneself from the mental and sensory world, and seeing things as they are, without interpretation, is equanimity.
As of now, I am being carried along with these phenomena. Do you mean that you should just watch these things, not push them away, but just experience them as if one is watching the breath?
Bare attention is one of the terms used here, where one attends to the charism, in the same way that one attends to the breath without attempting to change the breath or the charism.
I do experience the auditory charism of ringing, and I've learnt how to "ride" that sound, but I am not very sure how one can apply that to the visual aspect. Is it more of a third-person point of view?
In the same way, one just attends to the luminosity without interpreting it.
There is another factor here that has only been discussed occasionally on this forum; and that is taking comfort, refuge, and even submission to the charisms, are key aspects of success with deep meditation.
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Bare attention is one of the terms used here, where one attends to the charism, in the same way that one attends to the breath without attempting to change the breath or the charism.
Thank you, this phrase "bare attention" works for me when I'm trying to develop equanimity. The word "bare" really works for me when I'm trying not to interpret it... Kind of "raw" attention where you're shining your awareness on the charisms but do not interfere or change them in anyway, but allow them to flourish by providing just that awareness as a condition?
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The recent session was not as violent, but I felt the same distinct shift. A bright light grew inside my head as if it was a sun, and then the tingling spread extremely quickly. It was as if the sun was in my head, and my whole vision was brightened. It felt as if I could see without a torchlight if I opened my eyes. Very soon, I felt the same pressure I had against my chest in my previous session. However, I seem to be having difficulties with staying with the charisms at this point as I do tend to get distracted by the breath.
I guess I will have to work on that. I did manage to turn towards the loud whistling for a while and I felt as if space extended (or more of that I could not really perceive the limits of my body). I remember in the past that I had a sucking sensation towards the crown but this session did not have it, neither did I have a black void which is supposed to be the transitory phase. I guess it must be the breath distraction again.
I am still working on equanimity. I looked in the mirror today and realized there was something strange about my facial structure, as if there was some subtle change. I am not sure if the energies of my recent sessions had caused some change to my structure. Does it tend to do that?? I've heard it happened to some others, but it was often accompanied by great pain, but in my case I did not experience much.
I also realized that lately, I would be able to just "intent" something and suddenly things would shift into my odds. I've heard of the Princeton experiment where the mind can affect a random number generator (Global Consciousness Project (http://noosphere.princeton.edu/)), but sometimes, things seem to be extremely lucky for me. I can recognize a "bad wave of luck" and then turn it around just by being mindful of it and intending the opposite. I am not sure if this is a side-path or anything, I do not intend to indulge in it, but I just wanted to confirm this is not some delusion by verifying it.
There is also this ability to "know" things. For example, I just seem to know how things work. It feels as if I logically deduced it, but I can tell that the logic I used seems to have come from... "nowhere"? It's a little strange.
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The recent session was not as violent, but I felt the same distinct shift. A bright light grew inside my head as if it was a sun, and then the tingling spread extremely quickly. It was as if the sun was in my head, and my whole vision was brightened. It felt as if I could see without a torchlight if I opened my eyes. Very soon, I felt the same pressure I had against my chest in my previous session. However, I seem to be having difficulties with staying with the charisms at this point as I do tend to get distracted by the breath.
The pressure that you felt in your chest could be the opening of the heart chakra.
I guess I will have to work on that. I did manage to turn towards the loud whistling for a while and I felt as if space extended (or more of that I could not really perceive the limits of my body). I remember in the past that I had a sucking sensation towards the crown but this session did not have it, neither did I have a black void which is supposed to be the transitory phase. I guess it must be the breath distraction again.
The "sucking sensation towards the crown" that you reported could be the opening of the crown chakra.
I am still working on equanimity. I looked in the mirror today and realized there was something strange about my facial structure, as if there was some subtle change. I am not sure if the energies of my recent sessions had caused some change to my structure. Does it tend to do that?? I've heard it happened to some others, but it was often accompanied by great pain, but in my case I did not experience much.
I too experienced this change in my face. Part of it is due to learning to relax at a deep level, relaxes the muscles all over the body, including the face, so that our expression tends to change. Another aspect of the apparent change, I believe, comes from seeing our face raw, or without the habitual interpretation that we used to carry with us prior to taking up deep meditation.
I also realized that lately, I would be able to just "intent" something and suddenly things would shift into my odds. I've heard of the Princeton experiment where the mind can affect a random number generator (Global Consciousness Project (http://noosphere.princeton.edu/)), but sometimes, things seem to be extremely lucky for me. I can recognize a "bad wave of luck" and then turn it around just by being mindful of it and intending the opposite. I am not sure if this is a side-path or anything, I do not intend to indulge in it, but I just wanted to confirm this is not some delusion by verifying it.
I am happy for things improving for you. Perhaps you will pick a winning lottery ticket; however, I do not happen to subscribe to the belief in any kind of such miracle; or otherwise those in history who developed deep meditation would all have been well liked, and would have acquired name, fame, power and wealth. However, what we find is most of them were persecuted.
There is also this ability to "know" things. For example, I just seem to know how things work. It feels as if I logically deduced it, but I can tell that the logic I used seems to have come from... "nowhere"? It's a little strange.
Well, we call this intuitive, revelatory, insight. Insight is a natural fruit of the attainment of deep meditation, but that does not mean that you will ever select a winning lottery ticket, or win at gambling.
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Bodimind, For best experiences in meditation let go, surrender, to the tingling... Stu Varanasi, India
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I too experienced this change in my face. Part of it is due to learning to relax at a deep level, relaxes the muscles all over the body, including the face, so that our expression tends to change. Another aspect of the apparent change, I believe, comes from seeing our face raw, or without the habitual interpretation that we used to carry with us prior to taking up deep meditation.
That makes sense. I am wondering... How do you hold the mouth up when you are relaxed? I sometimes find that my mandible drops and my mouth hangs open. Sometimes there is a lot of saliva that fills up. In my better sessions, my jaw stays up. I am wondering about the tension of the jaw muscles. I've tried sucking in the saliva to create a vacuum, but sometimes the jaw just drops due to the relaxed jaw muscles. It can be pretty distracting when saliva is dripping down lol.
or otherwise those in history who developed deep meditation would all have been well liked, and would have acquired name, fame, power and wealth. However, what we find is most of them were persecuted.
Very true. I've decided not to explore it or interfere with the causality of things, and let nature take its course.
Well, we call this intuitive, revelatory, insight. Insight is a natural fruit of the attainment of deep meditation, but that does not mean that you will ever select a winning lottery ticket, or win at gambling.
Oh! i always thought intuitive insight would be somewhat of a more impactful thing. Does it mean that even random inspirations can be part of this intuitive insight? Maybe Albert Einstein's dream of riding on a light beam? Is transcendental/supramundane insight much different from this?
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I recently had a conversation with a few spiritually-interested people. They were talking about the paranormal and their experiences with them.
For example, one guy said that there were areas where if you stepped into a certain place, there was a very distinct shift in the air or atmosphere. There would be partying noises that were extremely loud before a tree, but the moment he walked past the tree, everything in that zone went dead silence. It did not make much sense because the loudness could not have been nullified by any silencing object. It was as if one walked into a sound proof room without a door. He then said that there was a strange chill in the air. One of his friends was able to see a hostile entity moving towards him.
I was wondering since you seem to have experience with so many entities. Why is it that some people are able to see these entities while others cannot even see them? Are the more sensitive people more "third-eye awakened" (if that means anything...)? What is your view on haunted places like this, where there are actually real experiences? I understand that in the subtle body, the senses become alive, but is it also possible that one is able to see these entities when in a physical body while others are not?
The reason for this is that I am sometimes afraid of having these experiences when I meditate. In my life, I must admit that I am "dull", where I have never really felt or seen any of these things. I am afraid that if I get into samadhi and awaken my third eye, I start to see these entities. I know they are "harmless" but the idea of it does freak me out quite a bit.
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About my recent practices, I am bordering around third or fourth jhana. My charisms have also become intense. The moment i close my eyes, I am able to already be in the first or second jhana, where the whole body is tingling. I am still working on the fear of losing the breath, and I feel that it is not the breath - It might just be an excuse for me to cling onto my ego/self.
Bodimind, For best experiences in meditation let go, surrender, to the tingling... Stu Varanasi, India
Thank you for that. I do try to do that. Do you try to focus on the full-body tingling or just an aspect of it?
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That makes sense. I am wondering... How do you hold the mouth up when you are relaxed? I sometimes find that my mandible drops and my mouth hangs open. Sometimes there is a lot of saliva that fills up. In my better sessions, my jaw stays up. I am wondering about the tension of the jaw muscles. I've tried sucking in the saliva to create a vacuum, but sometimes the jaw just drops due to the relaxed jaw muscles. It can be pretty distracting when saliva is dripping down lol.
in the beginning a had a lot of trouble with tensions around the body, like the jaw muscle. I found when I started practicing hatha yoga for several hours a day that I was able to transform my body, so that I could sit for long periods of time in meditation.
I too had the particular problem of jaw muscle tension, and the jaw wanting to flop open, then drooling took place, which is something that I found was a distraction. So, I employed the slight vacuum that you mentioned. I used the tongue as the vacuum device by planting it firmly in the roof of my mouth, then s I relaxed the tongue would start to fall, but a vacuum would form to hold it and my jaw in place, while I relaxed deeply into a deep meditation state.
Oh! i always thought intuitive insight would be somewhat of a more impactful thing. Does it mean that even random inspirations can be part of this intuitive insight? Maybe Albert Einstein's dream of riding on a light beam? Is transcendental/supramundane insight much different from this?
Yes, in my experience intuitive insight often happens as random inspirations. Yes, I believe that Albert Einstein's dream of riding on a light beam is a classic example of possibly one or both of two things: intuitive insight; and/or an OOBE.
I recently had a conversation with a few spiritually-interested people. They were talking about the paranormal and their experiences with them.
For example, one guy said that there were areas where if you stepped into a certain place, there was a very distinct shift in the air or atmosphere. There would be partying noises that were extremely loud before a tree, but the moment he walked past the tree, everything in that zone went dead silence. It did not make much sense because the loudness could not have been nullified by any silencing object. It was as if one walked into a sound proof room without a door. He then said that there was a strange chill in the air. One of his friends was able to see a hostile entity moving towards him.
I was wondering since you seem to have experience with so many entities. Why is it that some people are able to see these entities while others cannot even see them? Are the more sensitive people more "third-eye awakened" (if that means anything...)? What is your view on haunted places like this, where there are actually real experiences? I understand that in the subtle body, the senses become alive, but is it also possible that one is able to see these entities when in a physical body while others are not?
The reason for this is that I am sometimes afraid of having these experiences when I meditate. In my life, I must admit that I am "dull", where I have never really felt or seen any of these things. I am afraid that if I get into samadhi and awaken my third eye, I start to see these entities. I know they are "harmless" but the idea of it does freak me out quite a bit.
We have discussed this on this forum from time to time. What we find is those who find it easy to get to deep meditation also had a number of experiences with psychic phenomena prior to taking up a contemplative life. I call these people "sensitives." Sensitive are very often diagnosed as psychitzophrenic and heavily medicated in this culture.
However, I have lived in Sedona, AZ, USA for 2.5 years, and I have found that almost everyone you will meet here has seen UFOs and/or various psychic phenomena. Now, it is possible that everyone here has had these experiences; however, what I have observed about the devout of every religion is they really want to witness a miracle, so they will all too easily misinterpret physical phenomena as miraculous.
So, just because you meet people who claim that they have had experiences with various psychic phenomena, does not mean that they have. First find out if the person in question meditates deeply, if so, then their claim might be genuine. If not, then their claim is most probably wishful thinking.
About my recent practices, I am bordering around third or fourth jhana. My charisms have also become intense. The moment i close my eyes, I am able to already be in the first or second jhana, where the whole body is tingling. I am still working on the fear of losing the breath, and I feel that it is not the breath - It might just be an excuse for me to cling onto my ego/self.
The root of fear is ego clinging and identification. As you develop deep meditation, your ego will begin to diminish and you will also develop familiarity with the terrain, as well as develop tranquility and equanimity, so that when you do encounter malevolent beings in the immaterial domains, then you will have no fear and you will know exactly how to deal with that demon.
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Bodimind, If you take, or rather or rather are taken, on the kundalini express go up with it - no choice really - my most recent ride was way out of time and probably space - during the ride which went through the top of head with at least one very bright light - it did not matter that my eyes were closed - nothing mattered. Dreaming not dreaming beside the point. Not sure why or how I left the state - the event clocked at about 2 plus hours. I generally follow my intuition in these matters and this event was amazing... Otherwise just go with whatever happens - I do not think I try to do anything everything just happens. I realize I am vague but then... Stu - Back in southwestern NM...
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I too had the particular problem of jaw muscle tension, and the jaw wanting to flop open, then drooling took place, which is something that I found was a distraction. So, I employed the slight vacuum that you mentioned. I used the tongue as the vacuum device by planting it firmly in the roof of my mouth, then s I relaxed the tongue would start to fall, but a vacuum would form to hold it and my jaw in place, while I relaxed deeply into a deep meditation state.
Thank you for the advice, I tried it over the past sessions and found that I needed a balance between tension and relaxation to keep the jaw sealed with the vacuum. Would you recommend hatha yoga actually? Or just any form of exercise would do?
The root of fear is ego clinging and identification. As you develop deep meditation, your ego will begin to diminish and you will also develop familiarity with the terrain, as well as develop tranquility and equanimity, so that when you do encounter malevolent beings in the immaterial domains, then you will have no fear and you will know exactly how to deal with that demon.
I am still struggling with this and I'm trying to increase my disidentification with the body, as a first step. I find that although I am concerned about the health of the body I am not completely attached to it in the way that I don't try to hold an expectation towards it. Is that the right way of looking at it?
Bodimind, If you take, or rather or rather are taken, on the kundalini express go up with it - no choice really - my most recent ride was way out of time and probably space - during the ride which went through the top of head with at least one very bright light - it did not matter that my eyes were closed - nothing mattered. Dreaming not dreaming beside the point. Not sure why or how I left the state - the event clocked at about 2 plus hours. I generally follow my intuition in these matters and this event was amazing... Otherwise just go with whatever happens - I do not think I try to do anything everything just happens. I realize I am vague but then... Stu - Back in southwestern NM...
Thank you for the advice... Strangely, I haven't actually developed or accelerated in progress despite those experiences, I'm not exactly sure why that is so. Perhaps I need to increase my intensity in practice even more.
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I recently went into a Buddhist university club which conducted dharma talks and I'm planning on using the resources provided to gain a conceptual mastery of the concepts within. Of course, I'll cross-reference them with the more accurate translations from gwv as well. Now I find that the principles of the Four Noble Truths can actually be applied quite universally, for example. I've never really saw it in that light, only just in terms of suffering -> cessation.
I know it's not about the concept, but the knowledge that you get from actual experience, but I'm sure that one should also study the suttas. Taking a more intensified studying routine of the Dharma in my case, hopefully it does help me in my practice itself.
I find huge delight in company that seek the dharma as well.
These days, I tend to have very, very pleasurable sensations happening randomly around my body. Such as a pleasurable orgasm-like feeling permeating my upper torso or mostly my head. This happens not when I sit down, but when I am walking around. Would it be correct to say that this is the physical aspect of joy/bliss in jhana? Or is it just a bodily reaction/change?
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Thank you for the advice, I tried it over the past sessions and found that I needed a balance between tension and relaxation to keep the jaw sealed with the vacuum. Would you recommend hatha yoga actually? Or just any form of exercise would do?
I found a daily hatha yoga practice helped me to transform my body into the necessary flexibility to sit for long periods of time in sitting meditation, which are needed for deep meditation. I also found hatha yoga practice improved my health; however, I found no magic in the practice of hatha yoga. It is just a system of stretches, which I found are good for the body.
I am still struggling with this and I'm trying to increase my disidentification with the body, as a first step. I find that although I am concerned about the health of the body I am not completely attached to it in the way that I don't try to hold an expectation towards it. Is that the right way of looking at it?
That seems like a healthy attitude for a contemplative to keep toward the body. If we abuse the body, then it will no longer serve us as contemplatives.
Thank you for the advice... Strangely, I haven't actually developed or accelerated in progress despite those experiences, I'm not exactly sure why that is so. Perhaps I need to increase my intensity in practice even more.
Transformation just takes time and patience.
I recently went into a Buddhist university club which conducted dharma talks and I'm planning on using the resources provided to gain a conceptual mastery of the concepts within. Of course, I'll cross-reference them with the more accurate translations from gwv as well. Now I find that the principles of the Four Noble Truths can actually be applied quite universally, for example. I've never really saw it in that light, only just in terms of suffering -> cessation.
I agree that the four Noble Truths can all too easily be applied universally without having to be a Buddhist. I find the same goes with the Noble EIghtfold Path.
I know it's not about the concept, but the knowledge that you get from actual experience, but I'm sure that one should also study the suttas. Taking a more intensified studying routine of the Dharma in my case, hopefully it does help me in my practice itself.
The study of the dhamma can only help you; because all religions tend to express biases that are not in alignment with the original doctrine.
I find huge delight in company that seek the dharma as well.
This is why the 3rd refuge is 'sangha' which just means the company of fellow seekers.
These days, I tend to have very, very pleasurable sensations happening randomly around my body. Such as a pleasurable orgasm-like feeling permeating my upper torso or mostly my head. This happens not when I sit down, but when I am walking around. Would it be correct to say that this is the physical aspect of joy/bliss in jhana? Or is it just a bodily reaction/change?
It is to be expected that when one cultivates the deep meditation states that the bliss, joy and ecstasy will permeate one's daily life. This is the transformative quality of deep meditation.
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I must thank Jhanananda and all the others on this forum for their repeated guidances.
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Lately, I've been struggling to reconcile a few insights.
1) I understand that the physical body is not me. It is in a way, me, but it is not really. Am I right to be thinking that the body is a mere interface for contact for the sense organs? And that the simple act of Desire has brought me into this world, merging me with the sense-consciousnesses and hence experiencing this world? I can see how if everyone is part of this "I", but currently in my experience, I am "me", the Ego. However, why is it that the present (or "being") feeling is only here in my experience? Why do I not see through the eyes of another being? Is there an explanation for that?
2) I understand that the past is a memory and the future is a fantasy. However, although the past, future or even the present cannot be clung on to, there is this succinct clarity of being in the present which makes it the "now". It is like the "I am". I can see from here how the 'self' can be met with by rejecting things by investigation, but I feel as if there is some kind of barrier blocking me from being "I". I feel like I am this light shining down on mental objects and hence making them tangible - abstract, gross, discrete, etc.
3) Thirdly, I cannot understand sleep properly. For example, I know lucidity in sleep is just like being aware that you are dreaming. However, this is in REM-sleep/light sleep. How about deep sleep? Is it the case that you should still be aware that you are unconscious? Do you definitely visit immaterial realms in sleep? I feel like I have a huge ton of unattained insights regarding this.
4) I understand suffering to only exist as a background. It is a polarity of suffering and pleasure. It is because we seek sensual pleasure that suffering exists. Pleasure is always in a background of pain. As such, as we move through life, we swing back and forth in pleasure and pain. However, what I don't understand is this. Is it the case that the 'me' still suffers and has pleasure while the 'I' disidentifies from the 'me' and hence is free from the stream of pain/pleasure?
5) What I don't understand about this point is that the lack of experience is also still an experience. For example, when closing our eyes, we still see 'blackness'. How does one get rid of that polarity completely from the senses? It is sufficient to go into third jhana? Would this experience be void? Or do we simply leave them as a 'background'?
6) I understand that consciousness is only birthed from duality and that awareness is primary, original and non-dual. However, I keep thinking from the scientific point of view that awareness is the "focus ability" of the brain - such as the reticular activation system/mid-brain at work, which denotes the functioning of an organic brain. Or would it be a reverse of cause-and-effect, such that the brain reflects what the awareness is doing instead of causing it?
7) I cannot seem to understand how one proceeds towards enlightenment. It is a void which is also full. Time, does it exist within it? It seems not to. Which brings me to the confusion between awareness and consciousness. Time exists in consciousness, but awareness does not seem to. Would be that the "I" is simply awareness? Or is it even more?
8) How does one operate if you are sitting in the background of things? It would be as if your body is moving automatically and responding to that world according to the conditions and effects. That would be the 'me' and not the 'I' right? What would I need to do... just remain in the 'I' and not care about the 'me' anymore? It seems a little counterintuitive considering the fact that I have to make right decisions, speeches and thoughts as I live the eightfold path.
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I must thank Jhanananda and all the others on this forum for their repeated guidances.
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Lately, I've been struggling to reconcile a few insights.
1) I understand that the physical body is not me. It is in a way, me, but it is not really. Am I right to be thinking that the body is a mere interface for contact for the sense organs? And that the simple act of Desire has brought me into this world, merging me with the sense-consciousnesses and hence experiencing this world? I can see how if everyone is part of this "I", but currently in my experience, I am "me", the Ego. However, why is it that the present (or "being") feeling is only here in my experience? Why do I not see through the eyes of another being? Is there an explanation for that?
St Francis used to refer to his body as the "donkey." It is just a vehicle, a conveyance through this world. In my experience we can see through the eyes of another in deep meditation. We can even think with someone else' mind. However, I would not recommend it, because people are crazy, so thinking with another's mind could be very crazy-making.
3) Thirdly, I cannot understand sleep properly. For example, I know lucidity in sleep is just like being aware that you are dreaming. However, this is in REM-sleep/light sleep. How about deep sleep? Is it the case that you should still be aware that you are unconscious? Do you definitely visit immaterial realms in sleep? I feel like I have a huge ton of unattained insights regarding this.
If one is unconscious in sleep, then one is not lucid.
I have no EEG machine, and only one researcher tested me while meditating. I was hooked up to an EEG and other monitoring devices by the sleep lab at the University of AZ back in the late 90s; however, I never received any results from either test, so I cannot respond authoritatively on this subject; however, since I have not noticed any gaps in consciousness for 40 years, then I am inclined to believe that I am aware regardless of how deep the sleep is.
4) I understand suffering to only exist as a background. It is a polarity of suffering and pleasure. It is because we seek sensual pleasure that suffering exists. Pleasure is always in a background of pain. As such, as we move through life, we swing back and forth in pleasure and pain. However, what I don't understand is this. Is it the case that the 'me' still suffers and has pleasure while the 'I' disidentifies from the 'me' and hence is free from the stream of pain/pleasure?
The four noble truths answers this. As long as we crave our experience to be something other than it is, then we suffer. If we accept life to be as it is, then we do not suffer. However, we are discussing mental suffering, not physical pain. We cannot avoid physical pain, but we can avoid the mental reaction to physical pain, by overcoming our habit of craving.
5) What I don't understand about this point is that the lack of experience is also still an experience. For example, when closing our eyes, we still see 'blackness'. How does one get rid of that polarity completely from the senses? It is sufficient to go into third jhana? Would this experience be void? Or do we simply leave them as a 'background'?
If we are successful in arriving at deep meditation, then we are not engaged in worldly interactions. We leave the "polarity" swinging back and forth from pleasure to pain by maintaining equanimity.
6) I understand that consciousness is only birthed from duality and that awareness is primary, original and non-dual. However, I keep thinking from the scientific point of view that awareness is the "focus ability" of the brain - such as the reticular activation system/mid-brain at work, which denotes the functioning of an organic brain. Or would it be a reverse of cause-and-effect, such that the brain reflects what the awareness is doing instead of causing it?
The OOBE is proof that consciousness is non-local and not dependent upon a brain.
7) I cannot seem to understand how one proceeds towards enlightenment. It is a void which is also full. Time, does it exist within it? It seems not to. Which brings me to the confusion between awareness and consciousness. Time exists in consciousness, but awareness does not seem to. Would be that the "I" is simply awareness? Or is it even more?
8) How does one operate if you are sitting in the background of things? It would be as if your body is moving automatically and responding to that world according to the conditions and effects. That would be the 'me' and not the 'I' right? What would I need to do... just remain in the 'I' and not care about the 'me' anymore? It seems a little counterintuitive considering the fact that I have to make right decisions, speeches and thoughts as I live the eightfold path.
Enlightenment seems to be the most misunderstood subject of any religion. Let us just say that Enlightenment is: freedom from craving, addiction, mental illness; unbroken awareness; and saturation in bliss, joy and ecstasy. So, now you have a goal.
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Here to update with things in my recent meditations.
These few times, I meditated without any kind of expectation of jhana whatsoever. I sat and simply went along with the charisms. Even when I got the feeling to stand up, I told myself to just continue on and see what could be there.
At a certain point of time, it felt as if I could stop my breath, so I did. Then the auditory charism went extremely loud, along with visual charisms (the whole room was extremely bright when I opened my eyes). However, i suddenly felt like I had some kind of blockage or tension in my chest and mostly my throat. It tensed my throat so much that I felt like I could not breathe properly. i explored it but it didn't seem to be any kind of muscular tension.
I at first wondered if it was my posture, so I made an effort to move the body in a way where I could spread open my chest and relax my front muscles so that pressure is not placed on them. However, it still felt as tense. It was by remaining in equanimity that the tension seemed to slowly dissipate, however, even after meditation, it seems to still be there.
Also, I experienced as if I was growing in size, enlarging and becoming much larger than my actual body size. I figured that it might have been my projected body, but I am not too sure.
Is it possible that my throat and heart chakra are still blocked? I do not know since this is about the first time that I've experienced these sensations. It felt as if something was pushing but was stuck. I experienced full body vigor as usual. I also experienced tingling bliss prior to that.
I thought I had overcome the fear with going on, but it seems that I still haven't too. I keep feeling as if I would lose myself or the ego, or whatever there is to lose, and it is stopping me from going forward because I am afraid that I no longer can function the way I do now. I do have worldly commitments (as you expressed it, debt being karma... ) and I could say that I have certain irrational fears about losing myself.
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Here to update with things in my recent meditations.
These few times, I meditated without any kind of expectation of jhana whatsoever. I sat and simply went along with the charisms. Even when I got the feeling to stand up, I told myself to just continue on and see what could be there.
At a certain point of time, it felt as if I could stop my breath, so I did. Then the auditory charism went extremely loud, along with visual charisms (the whole room was extremely bright when I opened my eyes).
This is how to practice deep meditation. Very good work.
However, i suddenly felt like I had some kind of blockage or tension in my chest and mostly my throat. It tensed my throat so much that I felt like I could not breathe properly. i explored it but it didn't seem to be any kind of muscular tension.
I at first wondered if it was my posture, so I made an effort to move the body in a way where I could spread open my chest and relax my front muscles so that pressure is not placed on them. However, it still felt as tense. It was by remaining in equanimity that the tension seemed to slowly dissipate, however, even after meditation, it seems to still be there...
Is it possible that my throat and heart chakra are still blocked? I do not know since this is about the first time that I've experienced these sensations. It felt as if something was pushing but was stuck. I experienced full body vigor as usual. I also experienced tingling bliss prior to that.
I thought I had overcome the fear with going on, but it seems that I still haven't too. I keep feeling as if I would lose myself or the ego, or whatever there is to lose, and it is stopping me from going forward because I am afraid that I no longer can function the way I do now. I do have worldly commitments (as you expressed it, debt being karma... ) and I could say that I have certain irrational fears about losing myself.
For many years I too had a sensation around my throat as if I was being choked. I kept thinking that it must be a recollection of a previous death, but the sensation went on for years. Finally I was attending a 10 day meditation retreat and mentioned it to the retreat master. He said he had had the same sensation for years, and had concluded, as I did, that it was some strangulation event in a previous lifetime. It was then that I realized that the opening of the throat chakra must be this sensation, and as you, bodhimind, pointed out there is a subtle fear of death. So, let go to the process. Accept that it is the opening of the heart chakra, and realize it is about overcoming the fear of death.
Also, I experienced as if I was growing in size, enlarging and becoming much larger than my actual body size. I figured that it might have been my projected body, but I am not too sure.
This experience is described in the Yoga sutras. It is one of the ways in which the 4th jhana is experienced. Good work.
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For many years I too had a sensation around my throat as if I was being choked. I kept thinking that it must be a recollection of a previous death, but the sensation went on for years. Finally I was attending a 10 day meditation retreat and mentioned it to the retreat master. He said he had had the same sensation for years, and had concluded, as I did, that it was some strangulation event in a previous lifetime. It was then that I realized that the opening of the throat chakra must be this sensation, and as you, bodhimind, pointed out there is a subtle fear of death. So, let go to the process. Accept that it is the opening of the heart chakra, and realize it is about overcoming the fear of death.
Also, I again catch myself having that thought of "What can I do?" I now realize that meditation is a rehabilitation of sorts and that the recovery is natural, but does this blocked throat thing disappear over time as one meditates? Or is there some form of insight one must reach?
Is it good for one to contemplate on the corpse, like in the Kayagatasati sutta to overcome this? I often feel that it is like an irrational fear of losing an identity maybe, forgetting my own name, losing my ability to interact in the world as I have always done, etc.
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Also, I again catch myself having that thought of "What can I do?" I now realize that meditation is a rehabilitation of sorts and that the recovery is natural,
Correct, "recovery" is natural, and leading a contemplative life (N8P) is the "rehabilitation" method.
but does this blocked throat thing disappear over time as one meditates? Or is there some form of insight one must reach?
If you spend some time investigating most of the nonsense that is presented on the topic of kundalini" you will find that most people are annoyed by the charisms and spend a great deal of time and money suppressing them. Whereas, here we learn to savor them, take refuge in them, submit to them, surrender to them.
So, how does one savor the sensation of strangulation, suffocation, and death? Take it as a reminder that life in a physical body is short, and impermanent, and it never gets better, but only gets worse, and soon you will be released from this long misery.
Is it good for one to contemplate on the corpse, like in the Kayagatasati sutta to overcome this?
If contemplate on the corpse appeals to you, then do so.
I often feel that it is like an irrational fear of losing an identity maybe, forgetting my own name, losing my ability to interact in the world as I have always done, etc.
Yes, it is. Instead we contemplative cultivate an awareness that life in a physical body is short, and impermanent, and it never gets better, but only gets worse, and soon you will be released from this long misery.
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I have been engaging in practices such as pranayama, walking meditation, anapanasati and visualization practices. So far, I find that the pranayama has been helping me keep a very blissful sensation throughout the body. It feels very warm and blissful most of the time. I do not experience blockages in the throat and chest as much as I did the other time.
I find that these days, I tend to tell people about the dharma as much as I can. It feels joyous to do so and like a natural thing to do. It seems that when I do not put it into a context of "Buddhism", even Christians tend to accept the idea - I just need to talk from the perspective of Jesus. I've been putting it in a context of spirituality instead to pass what I have learnt.
I also decided to try and see what the local monastics thought of the practice, so I joined a meditation session with the university. I meditated and soon got in deep, when they ended the practice at one hour - So there was not much time to get in even deeper. I told the monastic about how my breath seemed to cease and that my whole body was becoming very warm and blissful. I asked her with the intention of comparing to see how similar the views are. She responded, saying that they were all illusions. She described the deep meditation state as something very "stable", where eventually you reach samadhi.
Should these charisms be seen as illusions then? I don't seem to think so. I feel that the more I turn my attention to them and let them do their thing, they tend to either sustain or grow even larger. The bliss takes over and grows through the various stages.
On my own practice, I feel like my leg tends to become quite numb because I sit with my left leg over my right leg and it can shut off the circulation. I was wondering if it was better to go with Burmese style. I cannot seem to do lotus or half-lotus. I heard that it is not required, but it does help in preventing leakage of "energy".
Also, I've been thinking of trying lying down meditation - However, it scares me that I might leave the body. I feel fear with respect to it. Also, I feel like in the darkness of the night, it seems to be quite scary in the sense that I might meet beings that I do not see with my flesh eye.
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I have been engaging in practices such as pranayama, walking meditation, anapanasati and visualization practices. So far, I find that the pranayama has been helping me keep a very blissful sensation throughout the body. It feels very warm and blissful most of the time. I do not experience blockages in the throat and chest as much as I did the other time.
I find that these days, I tend to tell people about the dharma as much as I can. It feels joyous to do so and like a natural thing to do. It seems that when I do not put it into a context of "Buddhism", even Christians tend to accept the idea - I just need to talk from the perspective of Jesus. I've been putting it in a context of spirituality instead to pass what I have learnt.
This sounds good. Just follow what works for you.
I also decided to try and see what the local monastics thought of the practice, so I joined a meditation session with the university. I meditated and soon got in deep, when they ended the practice at one hour - So there was not much time to get in even deeper. I told the monastic about how my breath seemed to cease and that my whole body was becoming very warm and blissful. I asked her with the intention of comparing to see how similar the views are. She responded, saying that they were all illusions. She described the deep meditation state as something very "stable", where eventually you reach samadhi.
Should these charisms be seen as illusions then? I don't seem to think so. I feel that the more I turn my attention to them and let them do their thing, they tend to either sustain or grow even larger. The bliss takes over and grows through the various stages.
Well, you are beginning to realize that just because someone is a monk, or nun, does not mean they understand or value deep meditation.
On my own practice, I feel like my leg tends to become quite numb because I sit with my left leg over my right leg and it can shut off the circulation. I was wondering if it was better to go with Burmese style. I cannot seem to do lotus or half-lotus. I heard that it is not required, but it does help in preventing leakage of "energy".
About 40 years ago I found "Burmese style" works best for me. I still sit that way.
Also, I've been thinking of trying lying down meditation - However, it scares me that I might leave the body. I feel fear with respect to it. Also, I feel like in the darkness of the night, it seems to be quite scary in the sense that I might meet beings that I do not see with my flesh eye.
It is understandable that the OOBE might be frightening to some people, because this is precisely what we experience at death. So, the OOBE is too much like death. When we overcome attachment to the body, then we find the OOBE more interesting and fulfilling.
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I've changed my sitting style to Burmese and found that it was best for my legs as well. However, I do have a problem with where to place my hands. I place them on my thighs but they tend to slide down due to the incline of the thighs.
Also, when I stand next to someone else I know, they would suddenly comment that my complexion has become fairer and yellow. This has happened quite a few times. I think it might be due to the decrease in stress and an increase in attention to health of the body, perhaps better blood circulation.
I suddenly realize that I can have premonitory dreams. I found myself in two situations lately, where I was at the scene. I knew exactly what was happening and I acted accordingly to the dream. The funny thing was the two dreams were probably a year ago or so. They were quite vivid, that is why I remembered it.
Also, I am quite curious as to the differences between the dream realms and non-material realms. For example, a blind person does not dream in vision, but if a blind person were to have an out-of-body experience, he seems to be able to. It seems that in the dream realm, one cannot experience something outside of their own brain's capacity. How can one differentiate the realm of dreams and the realm of non-material realms? Can one meet another in the realm of dreams?
It is understandable that the OOBE might be frightening to some people, because this is precisely what we experience at death. So, the OOBE is too much like death. When we overcome attachment to the body, then we find the OOBE more interesting and fulfilling.
Still working on contemplation of the corpse, trying to remove attachment to the body. I feel that although my logical mind has released the attachment, it seems as if the subconscious mind still clings on to the notion of survival and existence. It feels as if... If there was no 'self', then there is no existence, but it doesn't wish to believe that.
I keep thinking that even if one were to experience the charisms, there must be an experiencer of that charism, which creates a subject-object polarity. However, it clashes with the non-duality I am supposed to be experiencing if I reach the third/fourth jhana. Since i can witness thoughts, sensations and even the charisms, then they can't be me... Or are they?
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I've changed my sitting style to Burmese and found that it was best for my legs as well. However, I do have a problem with where to place my hands. I place them on my thighs but they tend to slide down due to the incline of the thighs.
When you spend more time in meditation on the floor you will find your knees will lower. Otherwise I found nesting my hands palms up into each other in my lap works quite well.
Also, when I stand next to someone else I know, they would suddenly comment that my complexion has become fairer and yellow. This has happened quite a few times. I think it might be due to the decrease in stress and an increase in attention to health of the body, perhaps better blood circulation.
I hope so, otherwise it sounds like jaundice.
I suddenly realize that I can have premonitory dreams. I found myself in two situations lately, where I was at the scene. I knew exactly what was happening and I acted accordingly to the dream. The funny thing was the two dreams were probably a year ago or so. They were quite vivid, that is why I remembered it.
Those who learn to meditate deeply, as you have, will develop intuitive, revelatory, insight, such that one might have premonitory dreams.
Also, I am quite curious as to the differences between the dream realms and non-material realms. For example, a blind person does not dream in vision, but if a blind person were to have an out-of-body experience, he seems to be able to. It seems that in the dream realm, one cannot experience something outside of their own brain's capacity. How can one differentiate the realm of dreams and the realm of non-material realms? Can one meet another in the realm of dreams?
I find there are many layers to the immaterial domains. The lowest level is the dream level. The lower the level that we "dream" at the more restrictions we have.
Still working on contemplation of the corpse, trying to remove attachment to the body. I feel that although my logical mind has released the attachment, it seems as if the subconscious mind still clings on to the notion of survival and existence. It feels as if... If there was no 'self', then there is no existence, but it doesn't wish to believe that.
I keep thinking that even if one were to experience the charisms, there must be an experiencer of that charism, which creates a subject-object polarity. However, it clashes with the non-duality I am supposed to be experiencing if I reach the third/fourth jhana. Since i can witness thoughts, sensations and even the charisms, then they can't be me... Or are they?
The deeper you meditate, and the more time you spend in deep meditation the more the experience will be non-dual. One otherwise does not have to do anything, but meditate deeply, and carry the charisms with one throughout the day, while being in the present moment.
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I just wanted to record that I had my first gustatory charism while meditating. It tasted sweet. It first felt as if something sweet was descending, and then I could feel a very sudden sweetness in my saliva. Almost like honey, perhaps even sweeter.
Also in my recent session, I experienced two jerks. Perhaps kriya?
My meditation sessions have been normal and deep, bordering the first to third jhana. I have learnt how to ride the bliss, but I believe the problem is that I do not have enough time to sit long enough for the fourth jhana and beyond to take place. I will try to make time for myself, perhaps sacrifice a bit of late night sleep to get this going.
I find that even if thoughts arise, my state does not exactly 'break'. I can return to a higher jhana with quicker speed.
I just read a post by Jhanananda (in the Meditation Techniques forum) about piti and sukha, which I found was a really good one explaining the difference. Just to note it down here, piti did feel like an expansion near the heart, of ecstasy. Sukha was the rising of the charisms, particularly the tingling sensations which I felt might be the increased blood flow (??).
I experimented with my posture and realized that I had to allow my hip to rotate slightly to allow my spine to relax completely on top of it. My center of gravity tended to shift forward while I sat in Burmese and this caused me to slouch. There are quite a few gems in the forum so I'm going to take my time to try and dig them out over the week.
I have also changed my world-view. I no longer have an ambition to 'help others' - Instead, I find that I need to cure myself first of my ignorance before even attempting to help others. Afterall, a delusional person cannot do much to help another person suffering from delusion. This reminds me of the Plato's Cave Allegory again. I want to find enlightenment, then allow wisdom to guide my efforts instead. Lately, it is more of an effort to sustain the body so that it can have an ability to live within the world. The body seems to be nothing more than a shit-producing machine (lol), except that it has its use in exhibiting actions and interaction with the world. Maybe a spiritual crisis? I hope not. I do not find detest or disgust, more of I am detached from the idea.
However, I find myself repeatedly bending to desires time to time when I get flooded by many things to do. For example, stress would make me more susceptible to conforming to physical desires such as eating highly sugared food when I know that the sugar spike is not healthy to the blood vessels. Of course, there is the problem of lust as well.
I still have not reached the immaterial domains. However, I no longer have a deep yearning for it. I am simply just not dwelling, allowing myself to saturate in charisms. I believe that it eventually will take me deeper. All I will do is to increase my effort and rigor.
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I just wanted to record that I had my first gustatory charism while meditating. It tasted sweet. It first felt as if something sweet was descending, and then I could feel a very sudden sweetness in my saliva. Almost like honey, perhaps even sweeter.
Very good, it need not be sweet, but could be any of the other flavors, but it will not be associated with food, and will be associated with deep meditation.
Also in my recent session, I experienced two jerks. Perhaps kriya?
There are various types of kriyas, but jerks are one of them, so it sounds like you have some kriyas.
My meditation sessions have been normal and deep, bordering the first to third jhana. I have learnt how to ride the bliss, but I believe the problem is that I do not have enough time to sit long enough for the fourth jhana and beyond to take place. I will try to make time for myself, perhaps sacrifice a bit of late night sleep to get this going.
I find the more time we make for the contemplative life, then the more it pays off in depth of attainment.
I find that even if thoughts arise, my state does not exactly 'break'. I can return to a higher jhana with quicker speed.
Yes, this is skilful meditation practice. Michael Hawkins said he found thoughts and levels of meditation came in waves, and he just rides those waves. I find this an excellent, and useful, analogy.
I just read a post by Jhanananda (in the Meditation Techniques forum) about piti and sukha, which I found was a really good one explaining the difference. Just to note it down here, piti did feel like an expansion near the heart, of ecstasy. Sukha was the rising of the charisms, particularly the tingling sensations which I felt might be the increased blood flow (??).
I experimented with my posture and realized that I had to allow my hip to rotate slightly to allow my spine to relax completely on top of it. My center of gravity tended to shift forward while I sat in Burmese and this caused me to slouch. There are quite a few gems in the forum so I'm going to take my time to try and dig them out over the week.
The more time we spend in seated meditation practice the more the body conforms to the posture, and the more we make fine adjustments in that posture to accommodate sitting longer. Most of us find a wedge shaped pillow under neath can help improve the posture enough to allow for lengthy sitting sessions.
I have also changed my world-view. I no longer have an ambition to 'help others' - Instead, I find that I need to cure myself first of my ignorance before even attempting to help others. Afterall, a delusional person cannot do much to help another person suffering from delusion. This reminds me of the Plato's Cave Allegory again. I want to find enlightenment, then allow wisdom to guide my efforts instead. Lately, it is more of an effort to sustain the body so that it can have an ability to live within the world. The body seems to be nothing more than a shit-producing machine (lol), except that it has its use in exhibiting actions and interaction with the world. Maybe a spiritual crisis? I hope not. I do not find detest or disgust, more of I am detached from the idea.
Keeping mind the aphorism "Physician health thy self" is always a good choice. Most religions are prosthelytized by half-baked devotees who do more damage than good.
However, I find myself repeatedly bending to desires time to time when I get flooded by many things to do. For example, stress would make me more susceptible to conforming to physical desires such as eating highly sugared food when I know that the sugar spike is not healthy to the blood vessels. Of course, there is the problem of lust as well.
When we are self-aware, then it is hard for the cravings to take root, but, as stated under another thread, the craving might be a need for something that they body needs. Possibly rest, or nutrition, etc.
I still have not reached the immaterial domains. However, I no longer have a deep yearning for it. I am simply just not dwelling, allowing myself to saturate in charisms. I believe that it eventually will take me deeper. All I will do is to increase my effort and rigor.
Yes, if you just saturate yourself in charisms, as well as develop lucidity in your sleep state through deep meditation practice prior to sleep, as well as journal your dreams, then the OOBE will come soon.
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Just lay down for my first lying-down meditation, since I have finished my commitments and have a lot of time (so I decided to put my whole day into intensive meditation/mini-retreat).
I tried to put what Jhanon talked about in his thread into use: As if falling asleep, I would simply just watch the body fall asleep. Then I started to notice the tingles getting stronger, as if I was meditating. I found that in this position, I seemed to be able to get into a deep state much faster than when cross-legged in burmese. I rode the tingling and I am quite sure that I reached at least second jhana, because the tingling had spread to my forearms. There was this point where I felt bliss throughout the body, as if it was turning lighter and lighter. I suddenly recalled one of the sutta translations that Jhanananda had on GWV: About filling the body with bliss as if one were pouring a powder. It helped quite a bit, because I did not try to manipulate it, just allowed it to move in waves.
I also felt my body "sleep". I did notice that the auditory charism seemed a bit louder than when I do sitting meditation though. I also experienced at least 10 kriyas - sudden jerks that happened in the neck, the knee and the elbow (all joints, for some reason).
However, I think the problem is that I do not know what I am looking for in the fourth jhana. I know that when the tingling rises and intensifies, accompanied by the loud ringing, I am in the first or second. However, I cannot seem to understand what fourth's no-pain-or-pleasure trait means. I think I might have reached equanimity, where sensations rose and disappeared while I stayed unaffected.
No void or out-of-body yet though. I did find myself suddenly thinking about separation, but I realize that it is another thought that is distracting me, so I repeatedly moved back to the first jhana and tried again. I will continue this practice until I am able to be lucid while sleeping.
I noticed that Jhanananda said he took a few months to master this on one of the GWV pages, but I wish to know how one get into the immaterial more quickly? Do I just let it go on its own way? Is it exactly the same as sitting meditation? Or perhaps am I being too impatient...
While meditating, I have not any sexual desire, not had much visual charisms (in terms of floating faces like last time) or bright lights. Also, perhaps I am desensitised to the bliss, but I find the bliss not as intense as before.
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Just lay down for my first lying-down meditation, since I have finished my commitments and have a lot of time (so I decided to put my whole day into intensive meditation/mini-retreat).
Mini-retreats are a good adjunct to a contemplative life. Too many people who meditate just meditate once a year, or just once a week at the dharma center, or even daily just 20 minutes, or they attend one 10-day retreat in a lifetime, and that is it for their contemplative life. This means most of these people get nothing out of their meditation practice and are thus doing it out of blind faith.
Whereas, one who is interested in cultivating a fruitful contemplative life really needs to meditate daily, and also have occasional mini-to-long retreats at home, or camping.
I tried to put what Jhanon talked about in his thread into use: As if falling asleep, I would simply just watch the body fall asleep. Then I started to notice the tingles getting stronger, as if I was meditating. I found that in this position, I seemed to be able to get into a deep state much faster than when cross-legged in burmese.
All 4 postures have their use, but it is true that depth in meditation, and especially the attainment of the OOBE, is easier for most people lying down.
I rode the tingling and I am quite sure that I reached at least second jhana, because the tingling had spread to my forearms.
The second jhana is characterized by the stilling of the mind, not the charisms. So, if your mind was still then, you were there. The charisms generally come at later stages of depth in meditation, but not always.
There was this point where I felt bliss throughout the body, as if it was turning lighter and lighter. I suddenly recalled one of the sutta translations that Jhanananda had on GWV: About filling the body with bliss as if one were pouring a powder. It helped quite a bit, because I did not try to manipulate it, just allowed it to move in waves.
Yes, DN-2 has the liquid metaphor of, which I also find very descriptive. The powder in that sutta refers to a bath powder which is dissolved into water until it is saturated with water, but still remains pliable.
I also felt my body "sleep". I did notice that the auditory charism seemed a bit louder than when I do sitting meditation though. I also experienced at least 10 kriyas - sudden jerks that happened in the neck, the knee and the elbow (all joints, for some reason).
However, I think the problem is that I do not know what I am looking for in the fourth jhana. I know that when the tingling rises and intensifies, accompanied by the loud ringing, I am in the first or second. However, I cannot seem to understand what fourth's no-pain-or-pleasure trait means. I think I might have reached equanimity, where sensations rose and disappeared while I stayed unaffected.
Each stage has its own characteristics as described in the suttas, and I find are quite accurate. So, the 3rd jhana is characterized by equanimity, which I experience as a non-dual state in which my awareness is present by the I is not, and I become aware of the entire sensory domain as if I am a hollow tube through which sensation passes without me interpreting it. In experience the charisms generally arise here.
The 4th jhana is generally a place of deep relaxation which one finds to be so soothing that one feels as if it could go on for every. This stage is also characterized by space-time dilation, such that the passage of time is distorted, along with the sense of space, or location.
No void or out-of-body yet though. I did find myself suddenly thinking about separation, but I realize that it is another thought that is distracting me, so I repeatedly moved back to the first jhana and tried again. I will continue this practice until I am able to be lucid while sleeping.
I noticed that Jhanananda said he took a few months to master this on one of the GWV pages, but I wish to know how one get into the immaterial more quickly? Do I just let it go on its own way? Is it exactly the same as sitting meditation? Or perhaps am I being too impatient...
The need to do something is a characteristic that humans share. Whereas, success in meditation is all about not doing, and allowing the process to unfold naturally.
While meditating, I have not any sexual desire, not had much visual charisms (in terms of floating faces like last time) or bright lights. Also, perhaps I am desensitised to the bliss, but I find the bliss not as intense as before.
The bliss goes through stages. It is a good sign that sexual desires or fantasies are declining during your meditation sessions. It suggests that the fetters are falling away from you.
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Each stage has its own characteristics as described in the suttas, and I find are quite accurate. So, the 3rd jhana is characterized by equanimity, which I experience as a non-dual state in which my awareness is present by the I is not, and I become aware of the entire sensory domain as if I am a hollow tube through which sensation passes without me interpreting it. In experience the charisms generally arise here.
Interesting. While I was out and about on a walk doing some writing on the back of a building, I wrote a little poem that went something like:
Beyond the mind and body
Centred on the void
The world seems hollow
But you see the truth
While meditating, I have not any sexual desire, not had much visual charisms (in terms of floating faces like last time) or bright lights. Also, perhaps I am desensitised to the bliss, but I find the bliss not as intense as before.
No sexual desire... this is happening to me.... it is the weirdest thing, I am supposed to be in sexual maturity. But when it comes, whooooooaaaaa!!!! :P
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Interesting. While I was out and about on a walk doing some writing on the back of a building, I wrote a little poem that went something like:
Beyond the mind and body
Centred on the void
The world seems hollow
But you see the truth
Sounds non-dual to me.
No sexual desire... this is happening to me.... it is the weirdest thing, I am supposed to be in sexual maturity. But when it comes, whooooooaaaaa!!!! :P
This is common for people who meditate deeply. You can have sex if you want, but there is not much drive to make it happen, and there is often so much emotional drama, and commitments, and obligations related to sex, that a mystic will often times just find life easier without it.
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Interesting. While I was out and about on a walk doing some writing on the back of a building, I wrote a little poem that went something like:
Beyond the mind and body
Centred on the void
The world seems hollow
But you see the truth
I like that and can relate to it. :)
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Mini-retreats are a good adjunct to a contemplative life. Too many people who meditate just meditate once a year, or just once a week at the dharma center, or even daily just 20 minutes, or they attend one 10-day retreat in a lifetime, and that is it for their contemplative life. This means most of these people get nothing out of their meditation practice and are thus doing it out of blind faith.
Yes, I always try to meditate everyday, I treat it as if it was a meal. Also, I place reminders all over my room/phone to ensure that I am keeping mindfulness over thoughts, speech and actions.
All 4 postures have their use, but it is true that depth in meditation, and especially the attainment of the OOBE, is easier for most people lying down.
May I know if the OOBE is only attained after the fourth jhana? Or can people slip into an OOBE without saturating in the four brahma-viharas/jhana factors? I was thinking about what you said last time and I think people who are asleep do drift off from their body, only that they are unaware of it.
Each stage has its own characteristics as described in the suttas, and I find are quite accurate. So, the 3rd jhana is characterized by equanimity, which I experience as a non-dual state in which my awareness is present by the I is not, and I become aware of the entire sensory domain as if I am a hollow tube through which sensation passes without me interpreting it. In experience the charisms generally arise here.
Thank you for clarifying this way, it feels more clear to me now.
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Latest blog entry:
I lay down at 2pm for another lying-down meditation session. This time, I put away any notion of trying to generate a manomaya or whatever, because I just wanted to ride along and see where it took me. I will try to put a more comprehensive account here, so maybe it can be identified where I went wrong.
I dimmed the lights, because I figured that the lights shining on my eyelids would not help my body sleep. My whole body relaxed and I used my breath as a meditation object to get me into the right wholesome state. I did not experience any of the five hindrances. I simply followed the Anapanasati sutta and followed the breath - knowing it as long or short.
Then I became sensitive to my body. As it relaxed, I started to feel tingling appear at my palms and soles. I shifted my attention to the tingling in my palms, but spread my awareness to the whole body. I then felt a "light sensation" as if I was refreshed, with a light degree of happiness (probably piiti).
Next, I rode it along and suddenly I felt as if I was bobbing in my bed. I do not know if this is because of the blood flow, but I felt like I was floating on water. I went up and down and I simply rode it along. But soon, I felt myself pulse. I do believe that it was because of an increased heart-beat. My body seemed to pulsate again and again. It went so fast, I thought something would happen, but nothing did. It seemed to subside.
I realized that I heard a distinct, lower "hum" different from the light "ringing" sound that I normally hear. Maybe this is the real auditory charism? Did I mistake the auditory charism as something else? Is it possible to have two ringing sounds of different frequency?
I realized that I might have distracted myself with the thought, so I tried again, starting from first jhana. Same thing, I felt piti and sukha, as well as sustained/applied one-pointedness. Then I reached tranquility, as the sustaining/applied attention became more automatic.
This time, I felt my body seem to expand. It was as if I was getting bigger and bigger. I just let it go bigger and bigger. Also, this time, I witnessed some kind of visual charism under my eyelids, glowing lights of sorts. Then it subsided again. Man, I was puzzled. I've been riding the charisms and it just seems to subside, and I need to restart it.
I later realized that when my body seemed to pulsate and all that, my physical body would feel muscles straining. I would realize that I might have gotten tense, then I would try to relax them. But each time I tried, it seemed to fade away.
My question is, why does my heart-beat so fast? Also, I cannot seem to reach the equanimity, where you say that it feels as if one was a "hollow tube". I do try to ride the charisms without interpretation though. Is that what you meant? Thank you for your advice too, it has been really helpful for progress.
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May I know if the OOBE is only attained after the fourth jhana? Or can people slip into an OOBE without saturating in the four brahma-viharas/jhana factors? I was thinking about what you said last time and I think people who are asleep do drift off from their body, only that they are unaware of it.
According to MN 26 and 36 Siddhartha Gauatama had mastered most of the immaterial domains; however, he said he still had dhukkha. He then found the 4 jhanas, and said that he was no free of dhukkha. Also, there are organizations that promote the OOBE; however, they do not claim that their followers become free of any of the obsessive and compulsive behaviors. And, I too found OOBEs at random intervals prior to taking up a contemplative life. We can thus conclude that the OOBE can be acquired without mastering the 4 jhanas.
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I lay down at 2pm for another lying-down meditation session. This time, I put away any notion of trying to generate a manomaya or whatever, because I just wanted to ride along and see where it took me. I will try to put a more comprehensive account here, so maybe it can be identified where I went wrong.
I dimmed the lights, because I figured that the lights shining on my eyelids would not help my body sleep. My whole body relaxed and I used my breath as a meditation object to get me into the right wholesome state. I did not experience any of the five hindrances. I simply followed the Anapanasati sutta and followed the breath - knowing it as long or short.
Then I became sensitive to my body. As it relaxed, I started to feel tingling appear at my palms and soles. I shifted my attention to the tingling in my palms, but spread my awareness to the whole body. I then felt a "light sensation" as if I was refreshed, with a light degree of happiness (probably piiti).
Next, I rode it along and suddenly I felt as if I was bobbing in my bed. I do not know if this is because of the blood flow, but I felt like I was floating on water. I went up and down and I simply rode it along. But soon, I felt myself pulse. I do believe that it was because of an increased heart-beat. My body seemed to pulsate again and again. It went so fast, I thought something would happen, but nothing did. It seemed to subside.
I realized that I heard a distinct, lower "hum" different from the light "ringing" sound that I normally hear. Maybe this is the real auditory charism? Did I mistake the auditory charism as something else? Is it possible to have two ringing sounds of different frequency?
I realized that I might have distracted myself with the thought, so I tried again, starting from first jhana. Same thing, I felt piti and sukha, as well as sustained/applied one-pointedness. Then I reached tranquility, as the sustaining/applied attention became more automatic.
This time, I felt my body seem to expand. It was as if I was getting bigger and bigger. I just let it go bigger and bigger. Also, this time, I witnessed some kind of visual charism under my eyelids, glowing lights of sorts. Then it subsided again. Man, I was puzzled. I've been riding the charisms and it just seems to subside, and I need to restart it.
I later realized that when my body seemed to pulsate and all that, my physical body would feel muscles straining. I would realize that I might have gotten tense, then I would try to relax them. But each time I tried, it seemed to fade away.
My question is, why does my heart-beat so fast? Also, I cannot seem to reach the equanimity, where you say that it feels as if one was a "hollow tube". I do try to ride the charisms without interpretation though. Is that what you meant? Thank you for your advice too, it has been really helpful for progress.
It sounds like you are making good progress, but it also sounds like you are trying to make it happen. You do not need to go back to the beginning, when you lose concentration, because the experience of deep meditation is it oscillates, especially in its early stages. Just learn to relax deeply while being mindfully self-aware, relaxing deeply, stilling the mind, and attending to the charisms as you are doing. Then just do this session after session, day after day, year after year. Eventually the deeper states will open up to you; probably sooner than later.
As to why your heart seemed to beat faster, it reminds me of about 2 decades ago I had gotten to a deeper level of my meditations and thought that my heart was beating loudly and faster, and thought I was headed to a heart attack. In retrospect I realized that hearing one's heart beat is part of the hypersensitive stage, which typically comes after the 2nd jhana, and is required for attaining the charisms that are typical of the 3rd jhana.
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It sounds like you are making good progress, but it also sounds like you are trying to make it happen. You do not need to go back to the beginning, when you lose concentration, because the experience of deep meditation is it oscillates, especially in its early stages. Just learn to relax deeply while being mindfully self-aware, relaxing deeply, stilling the mind, and attending to the charisms as you are doing. Then just do this session after session, day after day, year after year. Eventually the deeper states will open up to you; probably sooner than later.
Thank you for this advice, I have just applied it to my session today and I found myself just wandering the charisms, without trying to do anything. However, I found myself with a backache near my tailbone, so I might shift my practice to the bed instead of a yoga mat so that the blood can circulate properly.
As to why your heart seemed to beat faster, it reminds me of about 2 decades ago I had gotten to a deeper level of my meditations and thought that my heart was beating loudly and faster, and thought I was headed to a heart attack. In retrospect I realized that hearing one's heart beat is part of the hypersensitive stage, which typically comes after the 2nd jhana, and is required for attaining the charisms that are typical of the 3rd jhana.
Thank you for the clarification. I remember that I felt more peaceful after going through the hypersensitive stage. Does this mean that I have progressed past the 2nd in this case? Maybe I thought I was regressing when I was actually progressing.
One thing I find strange, is that in my session today, I find my mind so still, I think it might have been non-dual. I cannot seem to tell at that stage, as no thoughts float to the surface at all. It's almost like pure, blank awareness. At a certain point I felt a knife-like pain in my head, around my crown area.
In daily life, I have found a massive difference in my mind as compared to a few years ago before I practised meditation, where my mind could just remain in perfect silence for a very long time, as long as I did not intend my mind to "move". I notice what the Mahayanist buddhists call the "background awareness behind thoughts" and sometimes seem to reside there, such that thoughts do not pop out or bother me. When I reside here, I feel bliss mentally and physically.
I do not know however, if this is the right way for one to practice? From what I understand after reading the discourses, we should practice sati as part of the Eightfold Path, which involves introspection of thoughts and mind quality. But the problem is that sometimes I go into a non-dual state and thoughts surface very rarely. If I could describe it, it is a little like the gap between thoughts being extended and stretched. I would also feel tingling in my body as I do my daily work. I also tend to notice myself in unwholesome states like sluggishness or over-excitedness and try to allow the mind to settle into a more optimal state.
So far, I have not been able to replicate the same "fearful experience" a few months back, which caused me to lose sleep at night. I do not know if I have regressed. But I will continue to practice rigorously.
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Thank you for this advice, I have just applied it to my session today and I found myself just wandering the charisms, without trying to do anything. However, I found myself with a backache near my tailbone, so I might shift my practice to the bed instead of a yoga mat so that the blood can circulate properly.
part of learning to meditate deeply is learning how to sit for long periods of time, so the successful contemplative will work on his/her sitting position and equipment. I found sitting on a wool carpet with a wool blanket rolled and shoved under my butt works best. In the beginning we will need more equipment to make sitting comfortable, then we will need once our body gets used to sitting on the floor with crossed legs.
Thank you for the clarification. I remember that I felt more peaceful after going through the hypersensitive stage. Does this mean that I have progressed past the 2nd in this case? Maybe I thought I was regressing when I was actually progressing.
If your mind was still and you felt greater depth, and you passed through the hypersensitive phase, then it sounds like you made it to the 3rd jhana.
One thing I find strange, is that in my session today, I find my mind so still, I think it might have been non-dual. I cannot seem to tell at that stage, as no thoughts float to the surface at all. It's almost like pure, blank awareness. At a certain point I felt a knife-like pain in my head, around my crown area.
This sounds like the 3rd jhana; however, the "knife-like" pain in your head sounds organic and thus a coincidence. If every time you get to this depth you feel a "knife-like" pain in your head, then we will have to conclude it is a product of your meditation practice, and make some accommodation for it.
In daily life, I have found a massive difference in my mind as compared to a few years ago before I practised meditation, where my mind could just remain in perfect silence for a very long time, as long as I did not intend my mind to "move". I notice what the Mahayanist buddhists call the "background awareness behind thoughts" and sometimes seem to reside there, such that thoughts do not pop out or bother me. When I reside here, I feel bliss mentally and physically.
It sounds like you are skilled in the second jhana, and you should keep that up as a background level during your day, if you can.
I do not know however, if this is the right way for one to practice? From what I understand after reading the discourses, we should practice sati as part of the Eightfold Path, which involves introspection of thoughts and mind quality. But the problem is that sometimes I go into a non-dual state and thoughts surface very rarely. If I could describe it, it is a little like the gap between thoughts being extended and stretched. I would also feel tingling in my body as I do my daily work.
Practice comes before attainment. Once one has attainment, practice is no longer needed, other than to retain the attainment. So, when your mind is still, and you feel non-dual, then don't bother with practice, just maintain the attainment. The "tingling" in your body sounds like the tactile charism. If it is, then attend to that throughout the day.
I also tend to notice myself in unwholesome states like sluggishness or over-excitedness and try to allow the mind to settle into a more optimal state.
This is good mindful self-awareness, whereby when we find our mind in an unwholesome state, then we bring our awareness back to a wholesome state.
So far, I have not been able to replicate the same "fearful experience" a few months back, which caused me to lose sleep at night. I do not know if I have regressed. But I will continue to practice rigorously.
When we traverse into a deeper samadhi we can by frightened by the new depth. Once we get used to this level of greater depth in meditation, then we no longer are frightened by it. Good work. Keep it up.
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Today's session was very deep.
Firstly, I finally understood the difference between the thinking mind and the "essence" that drives these mental/sensory objects into being. Understanding the "I" of "I am X" helped me understand the purpose of attention.
I imagined it like having a shepherd to organize the movement of the sheep. When the sheep are organized, they can then be led out of the field. Then only after the sheep has departed (or that we no longer perceive it) can we see the green field behind the sheep. The green field is this "essence" that I cannot quite describe. Putting it into words places yet another layer above this non-duality.
I experienced the auditory charism with a much higher ringing than previously. It came to the point where my visual charism became so bright that despite having my eyes closed, I could see bright light from within. I also became very equanimous, to the point of not being able to feel my body. When there were noises outside, I could hear them, but I interpreted them as a sense object and did not participate in it.
I realized that when there is an object, it does not come to you. Instead, you go to it. So that is what it means by "drawing attention". When the door slams and there is a shockwave, it is my body and brain responding. By choosing to go it, I allow it to be attached. By choosing not to go with it, I let go of it and become non-dwelling and detached.
I also do not know why, but I felt inspired to express it as a poem (I am not very good in it, so forgive me):
Sheep led away by the shepherd
Revealed clear fields of brilliant green.
But if the sheep were many and scattered
the pure green will never be seen.
I feel that this might be the way to continue meditating. I am not very sure to which jhana I hit this time. I know that I felt a lot of bliss throughout my body. It was creeping around my face by the time I started to become less aware of the body. There was a lot of bliss especially in the upper part of my head, the crown area.
When I opened my eyes, a lot of time passed. It was as if I lost track of myself meditating or being "myself". I did sitting meditation as well, just to keep track. I started off with Anapanasati, using the breath as the object.
Soon after, I seemed to ride the phenomena. I was vaguely "knowing" that the breath was there, but I wasn't "concentrated" on it. It was like my awareness expanded and "retreated" to this attentive force behind the thoughts.
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Congratulations, bodhimind, it sounds like you arrived at a very solid, and classic, 3rd jhana. Keep it up.
Interesting that you found poetry as a way to express your state. Poetry might just be the best way to do so. This is why my first book was poetry.
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I like when people express the non-duel mind states with poetry and art. Although useful, I find when we use words to explain where consciousness can go it becomes too scientific, which can be limiting. Words not only limit the beauty and power of the experience, but in how someone relates to it.
When I was living on a meditation centre, I was drawn to the word jhana. I have no idea why, I was meditating and the voice said, go understand jhana. I went to their bookshelf and found the only book which had anything on jhana. It was written like a math book and no actual explaination was given, other than it was something only someone else like Gotama could experience. Yeah okay, I thought, and rolled my eyes. Too limiting.
I find being able to explain your experience in your own words becomes very meaningful. Adding in an addendum of how someone else explains it, like in the Sutta Pitaka or Interior Castle, only helps to strengthen your understanding and your explaination to others. Prior to reading the the defination of jhana in the suttas, I had this expereince I called "expanded awareness", where you move beyond your thoughts and you get more sensitive. The world becomes hollow, empty, sometimes your thoughts will just stop. Things get bigger, more intense on the inside. It's jhana/absorbtion, but just defined a different way.
If you do any more poetry, please post it on here. I would love to read it.
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Interesting that you found poetry as a way to express your state. Poetry might just be the best way to do so. This is why my first book was poetry.
Yes, it feels like describing it that way can express the meaning that I cannot write in descriptions.
When I was living on a meditation centre, I was drawn to the word jhana. I have no idea why, I was meditating and the voice said, go understand jhana. I went to their bookshelf and found the only book which had anything on jhana. It was written like a math book and no actual explaination was given, other than it was something only someone else like Gotama could experience. Yeah okay, I thought, and rolled my eyes. Too limiting.
I too, was drawn to the word "bliss". I do not know why, but all my usernames in the past somehow had a suffix or prefix of bliss, or some variant of the sort. It was as if I was subconsciously thinking of "bliss". I loved the word "blizzard" because it had "blizz" which sounded like "bliss". I just loved the idea of residing in bliss. When I first experienced bliss in meditation, I thought to myself... That was it! That was what I was searching for!
I will try to do more poetry and improve the way I express myself with it, but as you can see in my previous example, I am not the best poet haha.
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Another very deep session today.
As usual, I got into my meditation practice, starting with Anapanasati, as the auditory charism was not as bright, possibly to do with an overexcited mental state.
The poem I wrote came to mind again... So I got the shepherd (breath) to lead my thoughts (sheep) away. Immediately, I got into a tingling blissfulness (sukha?).
There was this point where I dipped in and out of torpor. And that I realized that my conscious mind was getting in the way. The conscious perception itself was blocking myself from surrendering completely. From then on, I let go of this sneaky, stubborn sheep and I went into a state of equanimity (the lush green field).
This time, the significant part was when there was a rush of blissfulness to the soles of my feet. This happened when I was in a non-dual state of "emptiness". I felt like light was shining from within, and it radiating outwards, as if I was a Sun. All my thoughts faded into this... corner, as if there were people speaking in a lounge in a low voice. My mind was bright and under my eyelids was bright.
The brightness is beyond description, and I felt very detached from my body. The only part where I felt disturbed by my body was when the rush of energy seemed to happened. It was as if someone opened the dam on a river and it flooded all the way down from my torso to my legs. I felt "popping", as if little bubbles were popping at the soles of my feet, but I suspect that it might have been capillaries that were obstructed due to poor maintenance of the body, and were now filling up with fresh blood.
When I got out of meditation, I felt a little dizzy, as if I was trying to get back in touch with my physical senses. It took me a while to get back my balance.
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I too, was drawn to the word "bliss". I do not know why, but all my usernames in the past somehow had a suffix or prefix of bliss, or some variant of the sort. It was as if I was subconsciously thinking of "bliss". I loved the word "blizzard" because it had "blizz" which sounded like "bliss". I just loved the idea of residing in bliss. When I first experienced bliss in meditation, I thought to myself... That was it! That was what I was searching for!
This is what Siddhartha Gautama said when he found jhana after a decade of leading a contempltive life that did not bare fruit.
When I got out of meditation, I felt a little dizzy, as if I was trying to get back in touch with my physical senses. It took me a while to get back my balance.
This sounds like the kinesthetic charism.
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I was reminded of a paint brush stroke, from one side, dense, to another side, subtle. It seems as if the whole world is in a spectrum of coarse things and subtle things. The subtler things, we cannot directly perceive through the six sense gates. The coarse things, we approximate, through our limited six sense gates. And of course, what is beyond subtle, we cannot even grasp with consciousness.
In fact, the only "real" things we can ever perceive are that of the four frames of references - the body, sensations, thoughts and mental qualities. By touching things outside, it is only our nerves being pricked and sending a message to the brain. In the end, all experience originates from within. As such, nothing outside can truly touch the inner, unless ignorance lends power and identity to it. As such, suffering is self-created and the only way out of it is rehabilitation until the deeper parts of the mind no longer create suffering for oneself.
I also realize that trying to be attached to the subtler things such as energy movements are still in a way, being attached to form. I don't know, but I feel like there is a point where logic no longer reaches and things become illogical. Logic governs into order. Without logic, things can naturally unravel into entropy. It feels like "clinging" tends to pull things together while "letting go" allows things to go in their natural cycles.
I find that the environment has a huge effect on my physical being. I recently flew from the winter cold of Australia to the tropical heat of Asia. I find that heat has risen from my liver and moved up to under my eyes. I feel my air passages clogged up with mucus. I intend to do more pranayama to clear the passages. My body is fatigued from travel, so I hope to catch some rest so that my psychosomatic state will be more optimal.
I also find that from my recent practice, I realize that everything that I experience is not the "self", and hence cannot really affect me until I give power to it. As such, I remain in a mindset of serenity while the outside continues to move. I feel pain, but my mind remains unmoved. I still feel frustration when the body is agitated physically, but my mind remains unmoved. The body remains mechanical, while the inside is blissfully at peace. Sometimes it feels as if hours has passed but it feels like just a few minutes to me. I've had episodes where I simply blinked my eye and then at least 5 minutes have flashed by.
I was thinking about family and bonds with people. It seems that all of these relationships are merely physical in nature. Since we are constantly searching for completion and fulfilment, we search for someone similar or even identical to us. Hence we identify with people who are similar in shape, genes, thoughts, ideology, etc. But if our memories were wiped, then there would be no emotion. It seems that it is thought about similarity that precedes such an emotion. If there is no memory, there is certainly no linkage whatsoever with our kin, other than gratitude for company in the physical realm.
We cannot project into a future simply by enlarging the past. Hence we should use awareness to see things as they are and not what we remember or expect them to be. However, it seems that education nowadays is based on memory work and rewards are given to people who break down things. When intellect rises, it seems that the heart has dried up. When a person dissects a painting, the original aesthetics of the painting disappear. It feels the same way for the divine. If I were to continue to cut it up logically, all I will see are more self-creations of confusion and will miss the point entirely.
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Hello Bodhimind
I was reading your post and searched the internet
and found this interesting video on the "Prison" we are
in, maybe it will be helpful.
https://www.youtube.com/user/daniela1771
Bless Valdy
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Thank you Valdy, for sharing that video. I watched it. It is certainly similar, it is just that I try to stay away from New-age explanations as they tend to become too simplistic and fantastical.
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I decided to add an 'anchor word' at the start of my practice. I chose to use the one recommended by Ajahn Lee (in one of the books shown in the GWV forum), and said "bud" for the inhalation and "dho"for the exhalation. What I find is that this allows the fifth consciousness (or conscious mind) to anchor to the sensation of the breath, as if it was dissolving into it. This allowed my thinking mind to synchronize with the pattern of breathing, leaving a space of fewer thoughts between the breaths.
When I did this, it allowed my mind to escape the normal drowsiness that can occur sometimes when I sat (where I will suddenly rouse out of the drowsiness and move into a clearer and aware state). I could tell that my mind was clearer and free of the hindrances. Hence, I then moved into the meditative state and rode on, keeping away from trying to control my body and breathing mechanism.
As I allowed my breathing to roam on its own, thoughts lessened as my breath lessened. Eventually, it reached a point of very feeble breath. This sometimes stopped completely. And when this happened, a burst of fresh vitality would rise within me. I cannot exactly pinpoint where it does, but it feels a bit like a solar flare that leaps upwards, giving a feeling of blissfulness that spreads through the body. Sometimes, this might end up with some itchiness, but as Jhanananda stated, staying through the length allows a different level of bliss/joy to be felt past it.
Of course, the charisms rise as well. The lights sometimes appear, as if they were some kind of interaction between the form elements. Sometimes they appear when I notice a shift in my mind. The ringing is quite constant. Now I find it strange that I only ever hear ringing but never bells or bird sounds as people talk about. The physical tingling is present since the start of rising in one-pointedness and can sometimes rise along with that radiating happiness that seems to be located around the chest to back area.
I can tell that there is some weird distance between this... "mental awareness" and my thoughts and body. When I meditate these few times, the distance grows so great that I simply reside in this awareness. I lose feelings of my body completely.
When I return to the world after absorption, I still feel a little dazed, as if control is seeping back through my body and nervous system.
Then it hits me a little hard... I suddenly feel very sensitive to my body. I can tell that some areas are a little.... painful? It is more of unpleasantness rather than pain. And all the different parts of my body are feeling in different ways. When I breathe in fresh, natural air, the body seems to calm a little.
When I drink a certain fluid, for example, coffee, it feels weird inside my body. As I walk around I can tell that weird feeling around my fingertips and especially sometimes around my scalp that can give rise to mini-orgasmic feelings. I think it might have been because I integrated sati with respect to the 32 body parts that this has allowed me to become more sensitive. Or perhaps it might have been the distance that I created between the body and the mental awareness... and when I returned from the deep experience it stands out far more.
Now when I interact with others, I am able to tell that my body is feeling a certain way. It seems that sometimes people react "emotionally" based on their own bodily suffering. I can sometimes feel irritated in body due to the heat of the weather, and I now realize that in the past, I would be interpreting this irritation of the body as frustration, and then using it as a basis for communication.
I reside in that awareness presently. I can tell that it is not affected until I decide it to be. I notice bodily agitations and mental agitations pass by like phenomena. If I am not keeping mindful watch on them, I tend to lose grip on the awareness and wrongly identify myself as these phenomena. By keeping a watch on them, I continuously understand that they are not "me" but simply forms of shifting elements within the five aggregates, whether coarse or subtle.
I don't know... but is it normal to be feeling these feelings? As if the body is constantly feeling burns... or perhaps discomfort and unpleasantness (if perceived)? It seems like I had a less sensitive mind before, and now I feel what has been going on in my body all along.
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This sounds like excellent mindful self-awareness.
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Hey.
I agree with how the New Age can explains things. I find they can explain things in some interesting ways, and you go, "Huh, how insightful". Other times, it is too narrow of a viewpoint, and lacks the awareness put on the entire mind, body, and beyond structure. Some of the people are not very enlightened, or do many activities that a heightened mind should be able to go pass, like drink and smoke. What the heck? Clearly all word and no substance.
I reside in that awareness presently. I can tell that it is not affected until I decide it to be. I notice bodily agitations and mental agitations pass by like phenomena. If I am not keeping mindful watch on them, I tend to lose grip on the awareness and wrongly identify myself as these phenomena. By keeping a watch on them, I continuously understand that they are not "me" but simply forms of shifting elements within the five aggregates, whether coarse or subtle.
This has always been a slippery slope for me. Although I agree absolutely in keeping mindful of the bodily and mental phenomena and not identifying with them, I find in practice going through my daily life this has been tested often. For example, someone steals from me and then lies about it. Not only do all the memories arise, but so does all the emotion and it's mental and bodily components. As much as I can stand back and not identify myself with it, staying one with the holy spirit, I find from experience I ultimate am staying too passive. Sure, I could eliminate certain people from my life and avoid those situations from arising, but there times you need to deal with a situation.
As much as I belief, experience, and have faith in not identifying oneself with the mind-body & constituents, I have found myself in situations where the holy spirit cannot help me. I would in compassion and fear of hurting another choose not to react. In the end, I was the one who got the shit end of the stick. Although, as a side note, there are many times I seemed to have such great luck in what I have received.
From my experience and work-in-progress viewpoint, I am starting to view the mind-body situation differently. Although I still choose to not identify with it, separated from who I am, it is still an out-pour and expression of what I am. I am starting to trust this process in a new way, even thought I am constantly going through situations find what the proper balance is between the two extremes.
I really do not know, but in each new situation I find I am going beyond what arises in the body and mental processes, and I may be choosing something completely different. In a way I could call it transcending the ego, all the limits I may have, and directing a new course.
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Hey.
I agree with how the New Age can explains things. I find they can explain things in some interesting ways, and you go, "Huh, how insightful". Other times, it is too narrow of a viewpoint, and lacks the awareness put on the entire mind, body, and beyond structure. Some of the people are not very enlightened, or do many activities that a heightened mind should be able to go pass, like drink and smoke. What the heck? Clearly all word and no substance.
Very true. Many of them also conduct psychological exercises in their heads and sometimes can be a work of imagination. I will not deny that some insights are also very similar to what we see in Buddhism, such as concepts of "karma", etc.
This has always been a slippery slope for me. Although I agree absolutely in keeping mindful of the bodily and mental phenomena and not identifying with them, I find in practice going through my daily life this has been tested often. For example, someone steals from me and then lies about it. Not only do all the memories arise, but so does all the emotion and it's mental and bodily components. As much as I can stand back and not identify myself with it, staying one with the holy spirit, I find from experience I ultimate am staying too passive. Sure, I could eliminate certain people from my life and avoid those situations from arising, but there times you need to deal with a situation.
As much as I belief, experience, and have faith in not identifying oneself with the mind-body & constituents, I have found myself in situations where the holy spirit cannot help me. I would in compassion and fear of hurting another choose not to react. In the end, I was the one who got the shit end of the stick. Although, as a side note, there are many times I seemed to have such great luck in what I have received.
From my experience and work-in-progress viewpoint, I am starting to view the mind-body situation differently. Although I still choose to not identify with it, separated from who I am, it is still an out-pour and expression of what I am. I am starting to trust this process in a new way, even thought I am constantly going through situations find what the proper balance is between the two extremes.
I really do not know, but in each new situation I find I am going beyond what arises in the body and mental processes, and I may be choosing something completely different. In a way I could call it transcending the ego, all the limits I may have, and directing a new course.
I can relate to what you mean about "staying too passive", because I also once had the viewpoint that you had to completely disengage with the world. But doing that seems a little impractical after a while, because as you said, matters that need to be dealt with are in the physical world sometimes. Actions need to be taken and it is not simply within the mental realm and the divine where we live in. I find that insights can surface and be applied to the world as well.
I now take a more "body as tool" viewpoint instead. I repeatedly introspected and found increasingly that my body is a conglomerate of the four elemental properties, earth (nails/bones/muscles), fire (kundalini/body warmth), water (hormones/nerves/blood) and wind (breath/prana). In a way, it is a technology of the world, an interface that the ego uses to exhibit its actions onto the world, or for the world to exhibit its effects upon you. So yes, I agree with what you mean about it being an "out-pour and expression of what I am". It is "perceived as mine" but not "I". I also feel as if there is some kind of 'mental glue' between physical body and the mental thoughts. I just cannot identify what it is.
I have not reached an advanced stage as you have, so perhaps my insights are still premature. They always seem to develop or change subtly as I gain new insights. I cannot understand what it means to 'transcend the ego', but I am aware that the ego is organizing a bunch of mental functions and making this whole experience "exclusive". I still do not have the insight of seeing the divine, nor have I reached the level of merging with the cosmos or immaterial attainments, so I will continue to strive for liberation, correcting my practice as much as I can for now.
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I now take a more "body as tool" viewpoint instead. I repeatedly introspected and found increasingly that my body is a conglomerate of the four elemental properties, earth (nails/bones/muscles), fire (kundalini/body warmth), water (hormones/nerves/blood) and wind (breath/prana). In a way, it is a technology of the world, an interface that the ego uses to exhibit its actions onto the world, or for the world to exhibit its effects upon you. So yes, I agree with what you mean about it being an "out-pour and expression of what I am". It is "perceived as mine" but not "I". I also feel as if there is some kind of 'mental glue' between physical body and the mental thoughts. I just cannot identify what it is.
Interesting. I never thought about it as the four separate elements before. I have always looked upon existence in four major ways: energy, emotions, the mind, and the body. I guess this aligns with the four elements.
I have not reached an advanced stage as you have, so perhaps my insights are still premature. They always seem to develop or change subtly as I gain new insights. I cannot understand what it means to 'transcend the ego', but I am aware that the ego is organizing a bunch of mental functions and making this whole experience "exclusive". I still do not have the insight of seeing the divine, nor have I reached the level of merging with the cosmos or immaterial attainments, so I will continue to strive for liberation, correcting my practice as much as I can for now.
Ah man, I am not at an advanced stage. To me, advanced is getting to the immaterial every night, with it being lucid and vivid all the time. This has been difficult for me to develop, because I find when the experiences gets intense, sometimes it feels like it fractures my soul. It is hard dealing with myself when it feels like there are ten different people in my head, when I know it is all just me in the end.
When I say transcending the ego, you probably know what I mean. For me, it is like I am seeing my body as many energetic structures and shapes, and they are all connected within each other. Inside the energy is our thoughts, and when you step back enough you can see it playing out right in front of you, just like in meditation or daily life. I find, when I am "transcending the ego" it is nothing more than seeing all the options internally available when faced with making a choice. I see the body and mental connections as only an internal energy, and the knowing and feeling become much stronger. Sometimes it feels like I am very out of my body and/or I don't exist. When making a choice in this transcended state, it is not within these energetic structures, it seems to come from somewhere else. Logic tells me it is only areas of the infinite subconscious I am not aware of. Faith could say it comes from some higher aspect of myself. I don't know.
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This session was a little strange.
I heavily emphasized relaxation this time. I found out that the more relaxed I was, a static like feeling spread throughout my body. I was able to feel my breath thin out until it reached the point of being very subtle. At that point, i started to feel my abdominal muscle contract in reflex. I felt some wave of joy rising within me and a warm-hot feeling spread across my back. I felt it rise up to the back of my neck... then suddenly my neck started to itch.
I remembered Jhanananda saying not to identify with the body, i repeatedly reflected on not being the body. I let it go. Then it spread to the top of my head.
I started to hear... wobbling sounds, as if there were vibrations in the air. At least i thought it was a helicopter's propeller... or the sound of birds flapping their wings. It went whoop whoop whoop - until it grew more and more intense.
I panicked a little as this was new to me, and i realized that when i moved out of that state, the wobbling sound seemed to fade away. I'm curious about what that hot flush across my back was... is it kundalini?
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It does sounds like waves of pleasure coursing through your body and reaching the state of clairaudience. It does sound strange about the sound. As it is not a classic signs. Equanimity is important. Fear is also an inhibiting factor in anyone's progress. It seems like you are advancing in your practice. Do update us and keep up the good work.
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Yes, bodhimind, deep relaxation is an important skill for those to develop who wish to develop deep meditation, so keep it up.
As for the sound, it is new to me as well, but that does not mean that it is not within the range of charisms; however, it suggests more of a helicopter nearby. If it keeps coming during your meditation sessions, and you find it intensifies during those sessions, then we shall have to accept it as a charism. Please do keep us posted on your findings, as we are all researchers here, not just research subjects.
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It seems like a one-off thing because I haven't experienced it since that day.
One thing I realized these days is that I tend to have somewhat of a static-electricity feeling around my whole body, particularly my hands. I bumped into a friend and he suddenly jumped back, clutching his hand, saying that he felt sharp pain from static. That was one, because another friend also felt it. The strange thing is that I did not rub my hands or been in a situation where I could build static electricity in my hands, so I have reason to think that it might have been my recent practices that caused it.
Also, I realized a problem I had with my practice. Since I was so focused on detachment from the physical body, I retreated and subconsciously drew myself inwards. Then I realized that to function in the physical world, I do have to construct "tools" or "conditions" to allow myself to act suitably through the body. I cannot be detached and act at the same time. I need to be involved with the whole process and stop trying to push any blame onto an "ego".
When I did this, I suddenly became more involved with life around, as if I was back to my childhood days. Everything seemed brighter, literally, it was as if there was some back-light in my eyes. When I stood in the train, I was sensitive to the swaying of the train, the minute rotation of the Earth and how everyone in the train seemed to be busy entertaining themselves in their minds. They were not truly living, but being engaged in fancy storytelling in their heads. As such, I felt as if they were creating their own troubles.
I realized that the access to blissfulness is already within, there is no need to seek pleasure outside. Nature cannot lie. Dishonesty is because it obscures the natural flow of nature, going against it. The mind tries to override nature, but it is clearly deluded. I suddenly see how the precept of not-lying falls in meaning with this principle of nature. I suddenly also identified this feeling of "extension" to be like metta-meditation which I once did. Lovingness radiates from the heart and becomes aware of beings around. I think I will keep up this mindful practice for a while.
Also, I realized that a lot of energy seems to go towards my digestion process when meditating. Perhaps i should regulate my diet with more stringent demands.
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It seems like a one-off thing because I haven't experienced it since that day.
There are a fair number of phenomena that arise during deep meditation, which are often not repeated. These can be explained by the person who has discovered deep meditation might become psychic. This at least has been my experience.
One thing I realized these days is that I tend to have somewhat of a static-electricity feeling around my whole body, particularly my hands.
The experience of the tactile charism can easily be interpreted as static electricity; however, I do not believe that there is an EMF component to it. I am quite certain it is completely non-physical.
I bumped into a friend and he suddenly jumped back, clutching his hand, saying that he felt sharp pain from static. That was one, because another friend also felt it. The strange thing is that I did not rub my hands or been in a situation where I could build static electricity in my hands, so I have reason to think that it might have been my recent practices that caused it.
This might be a coincidence, but worth noting for longer observation.
Also, I realized a problem I had with my practice. Since I was so focused on detachment from the physical body, I retreated and subconsciously drew myself inwards. Then I realized that to function in the physical world, I do have to construct "tools" or "conditions" to allow myself to act suitably through the body. I cannot be detached and act at the same time. I need to be involved with the whole process and stop trying to push any blame onto an "ego".
When I did this, I suddenly became more involved with life around, as if I was back to my childhood days. Everything seemed brighter, literally, it was as if there was some back-light in my eyes. When I stood in the train, I was sensitive to the swaying of the train, the minute rotation of the Earth and how everyone in the train seemed to be busy entertaining themselves in their minds. They were not truly living, but being engaged in fancy storytelling in their heads. As such, I felt as if they were creating their own troubles.
This is true. We call it here mindful-self awareness, which we believe is a central skill necessary to develop for deep meditation. So, there are no spaced-out bliss bunnies here.
I realized that the access to blissfulness is already within, there is no need to seek pleasure outside. Nature cannot lie. Dishonesty is because it obscures the natural flow of nature, going against it. The mind tries to override nature, but it is clearly deluded. I suddenly see how the precept of not-lying falls in meaning with this principle of nature.
Yes, I too find the various fruit of the attainment of deep meditation is "natural." This suggests that all of those who have not discovered deep meditation and its various fruit are most probably not living a natural life, but a deluded one.
I suddenly also identified this feeling of "extension" to be like metta-meditation which I once did. Lovingness radiates from the heart and becomes aware of beings around. I think I will keep up this mindful practice for a while.
As long as it pays off for you, then there is no reason to stop it.
Also, I realized that a lot of energy seems to go towards my digestion process when meditating. Perhaps i should regulate my diet with more stringent demands.
As soon as I stumbled upon the experience of deep meditation I began changing my diet. My goal was to no have my diet reduce my experience of deep meditation. So, it might take some time for you to experiment with your diet until you din something that works for you.
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When I did this, I suddenly became more involved with life around, as if I was back to my childhood days. Everything seemed brighter, literally, it was as if there was some back-light in my eyes. When I stood in the train, I was sensitive to the swaying of the train, the minute rotation of the Earth and how everyone in the train seemed to be busy entertaining themselves in their minds. They were not truly living, but being engaged in fancy storytelling in their heads. As such, I felt as if they were creating their own troubles.
Yeah man! This is the way to live!
I have noticed that there is various levels to this though. You can allow your mind to speak, even if you are in this state. When seeing the world as a child, your mind works like a child. It is very narrow focused and the attention is razor sharp on one thing. For example, if I am focused on a flower, my world is that flower. If I am focused on God in everything, then I see and feel God everywhere. If I am focusing on an insecurity, then my whole life is that insecurity.
However, you can still know something without having to think it further to the surface. I might explain this wrong the first time but it is otherwise very straight-forward. From my observation, the mind has a progression, from what I observe as the divine (consciousness), to the body including the five senses, mental perception/judgement, mental structures, beliefs & emotions, and then rationalization. Buddhism calls it the Five Aggregates, and it more or less falls into my observations and categorizations:
(Buddhism Five Aggregates commonly understood: Rupa (body), vedana (sensation), sañña (perception), sankara (mental formations), viññana (cognitinon)
This might be a little stoic of me, but I see great value in directing the mind while you are in various absorption states, or sometimes during meditation. For example, I KNOW that directing my mind towards seeing the Divine in everything will bring a powerful and positive experience. By the same token, directing my mind toward fear or evil will bring an equally powerful experience, albeit much more unpleasant. I do this by feeling my way to where I want to go. I allow myself to step back into the divine, then channel and direct where I would like to go.
Keep in mind, I am not describing something that can occur on the spot because I decree it so. It's more I allow the "I", the rational part of our mind, to step aside and allow the divine part of ourselves to steer course. It is still us in control, just a different part you need to surrender yourself too.
Also, I realized that a lot of energy seems to go towards my digestion process when meditating. Perhaps i should regulate my diet with more stringent demands.
I find a nice simple diet works best for me. Personally, I eat all four food groups, lightly spiced or bland. I find this system works for me and my body.
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Thank you so much all, for your replies, they are really helping to guide me on the right path. I am currently working on my diet.
I find that I have suddenly this awareness that what I eat and drink and breathe... Feels like solid, liquid and gas - Earth, water and air principles following into my body, rearranging themselves and becoming part of my body. I feel so much gratitude for it sustaining my loaned body so that I can continue my cultivation work. I now feel the preciousness of human life, and my intensity for spiritual seeking has increased sharply.
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I now understand that what I do not know, I do not know. Hence, it must only be by direct experience that I will be able to genuinely understand. By admitting that I do not know, I empty the mind of fantasy and preconceived notions, and allow myself to see things as they are, not what my afflictions and patterns want them to be like.
I've been practicing sati with reference to the four cornerstones for the whole day:
- Body: I walk mindfully, relax my muscles of subconscious tension mindfully, breathe mindfully, feel the moving static charisms across my body mindfully and the blissful, joyful feeling that seems to emanate from the chest area. I am also aware of this magnetic-like feeling that seemed to draw my hands together after a short meditation session.
- Sensations: I am aware that I try to classify things as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Hence, as I observe it, I now simply see it as what it is, and not what my previous compulsions and afflictions make them out to be. Coincidentally, it seems that this only happens when I try to classify it, when I do not live in the present and try to live in my mind.
- Thoughts: I only make thoughts when I need them. I understand intuitively that I am not the thoughts that arise. My mind is as clear as a lake, but with a few thoughts rising here and then. But I am aware when a thought rises in the mind. I label an ear-worm as an ear-worm.
- Mind qualities: This seems to be the one which I am not yet prepared for sati. I cannot understand how it is to understand inconstancy, etc. I am however, aware of the transiency and impermanence of the mental states. I try to reside in a clear mind state that is equanimous.
I understand that I am still bound by afflictions and am still subtly identified with the body, because I still link pain to suffering, and link pleasure to bliss. I am aware of it though, and am trying to disidentify from it.
I will try to use the five aggregates as a framework, but I am not very used to seeing it from that point of view, since I have been using the Anapanasati and Satipatthana suttas as frameworks.
Currently, I feel constantly blissed out. When I meditate, I often get kriyas. I felt myself swaying quite a bit. Also, I notice that sometimes I seem to "fall unconscious", then jerk back up and suddenly I'm in a much deeper state of absorption than before. As i meditate more, I then to become impervious to the physical body's sensations. I feel like I'm in this very .. empty kind of non-dual state, with no awareness of my body. The hum constantly rings throughout the day.
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I meditated before i slept and i suddenly went into absorption while sleeping. I felt like i spontaneously placed mt palms together and said "namo amitabha"... then i felt my whole body swirling. I was swirling but i was blind. I gave a leap of faith and i felt myself separate from the body. I knew i separated, but it didnt feel like i was in anywhere familiar as i couldn't open my eyes. Then i heard something say that to do it with faith. And i let go completely.
Then i felt myself in this space... with music playing softly in the background. It felt like i was lying down somewhere. Then i felt some kind of mental vision appearing where i could see where i was. It felt like an internal vision instead of looking through where my eyes would be.
Then i felt like my absorption was lapsing. Before i knew it, i was back in my bed, my body clasped in prayer and my legs in weird positions. My ears rang with a high pitched sound. I checked my clock.. 1.5 hour passed, but it felt like ages.
I was wondering... was that hallucination? Or was that a somewhat, bad but legit astral trip lol
One thing to note was that when i closed my eyes, i saw all kinds of strange symbols and patterns that i couldnt understand. It felt a bit like the other time when i saw faces.
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Yes, it's an OOBE. Great!!
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Sick man! Congratulations! :)
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Great experience, bodhimind!
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Thank you all for the encouragement and confirmation.
After I woke up and wrote the post, I went back to sleep, trying to go back into jhana again. I got to the point where I felt a fuzziness/tingling through my body, separate from my physical body. However, I felt like I was a little stuck as there was no separation. I remember doing some sort of backflip in my first try, and I was just spiralling out of control. It was a mess lol
Come to think of it, I remember the Buddha's description of it as being like a reed drawn out of a sheath/sword out of a scabbard, but it felt nothing like that. It was like I spun out of my body, it felt a little wild and out-of-control. I did feel the separation part though, it was like I instantly became "lighter".
One thing that confused me was I couldn't open my eyes. That made me feel like I was asleep but paralyzed in sleep. When out-of-body, is this normal? Are we supposed to look through internal vision instead of through the eyes? I can't help but think that it might have been a lucid dream instead, because I was missing the visual part of it.
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Currently, I feel constantly blissed out. When I meditate, I often get kriyas. I felt myself swaying quite a bit. Also, I notice that sometimes I seem to "fall unconscious", then jerk back up and suddenly I'm in a much deeper state of absorption than before. As i meditate more, I then to become impervious to the physical body's sensations. I feel like I'm in this very .. empty kind of non-dual state, with no awareness of my body. The hum constantly rings throughout the day.
These are all good indications of progress. A common experience of deep meditation is to feel tired, or dose off just before moving into a deeper state. I believe it is because the body and brain are used to associating deeper states with sleep, so as we explore deep meditation states we have to retrain the body and brain to accept awareness there. Another way of putting it, is as we explore deep meditation states we are pushing our awareness into deeper states, where we were not conscious before.
I meditated before i slept and i suddenly went into absorption while sleeping. I felt like i spontaneously placed mt palms together and said "namo amitabha"... then i felt my whole body swirling. I was swirling but i was blind. I gave a leap of faith and i felt myself separate from the body. I knew i separated, but it didnt feel like i was in anywhere familiar as i couldn't open my eyes. Then i heard something say that to do it with faith. And i let go completely.
Then i felt myself in this space... with music playing softly in the background. It felt like i was lying down somewhere. Then i felt some kind of mental vision appearing where i could see where i was. It felt like an internal vision instead of looking through where my eyes would be.
Then i felt like my absorption was lapsing. Before i knew it, i was back in my bed, my body clasped in prayer and my legs in weird positions. My ears rang with a high pitched sound. I checked my clock.. 1.5 hour passed, but it felt like ages.
I was wondering... was that hallucination? Or was that a somewhat, bad but legit astral trip lol
One thing to note was that when i closed my eyes, i saw all kinds of strange symbols and patterns that i couldnt understand. It felt a bit like the other time when i saw faces.
This was a classic OOBE. In the early stages of developing the skill to go OOBE we have to learn all over again not just how to move without a body, but, as you experienced, even how to see without eyes, and hear without ears. Congratulations on very good progress.
The spiraling, rotating, back-flipping, etc. are all ways by which one can leave the body, and are all common methods.
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I think it will take time for you to get used to it. Be consistent in your practice.
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These are all good indications of progress. A common experience of deep meditation is to feel tired, or dose off just before moving into a deeper state. I believe it is because the body and brain are used to associating deeper states with sleep, so as we explore deep meditation states we have to retrain the body and brain to accept awareness there. Another way of putting it, is as we explore deep meditation states we are pushing our awareness into deeper states, where we were not conscious before.
This was a classic OOBE. In the early stages of developing the skill to go OOBE we have to learn all over again not just how to move without a body, but, as you experienced, even how to see without eyes, and hear without ears. Congratulations on very good progress.
The spiraling, rotating, back-flipping, etc. are all ways by which one can leave the body, and are all common methods.
That makes a lot of sense... I will reflect on that.
Yes, it felt so weird to not be able to see through my flesh eyes... It is as if I had to 'imagine' something internally. Hearing strangely wasn't difficult. Perhaps it was because I am used to hearing the humming auditory charism, that I adapted quickly.
I think it will take time for you to get used to it. Be consistent in your practice.
Thank you, I think I will take a while too, haha.
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I felt extremely drained throughout the day after that projection, it was as if I lost a lot of vitality doing it. I was still able to feel blissful throughout the day though, and i believe that it helped with the recovery. I feel much better today.
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That makes a lot of sense... I will reflect on that.
Yes, it felt so weird to not be able to see through my flesh eyes... It is as if I had to 'imagine' something internally. Hearing strangely wasn't difficult. Perhaps it was because I am used to hearing the humming auditory charism, that I adapted quickly.
This suggests that if one were to spend more time in deep meditation using the various charisms as the object of meditation, then one will gain quick facility with the non-physical counter parts of our sensory array.
I felt extremely drained throughout the day after that projection, it was as if I lost a lot of vitality doing it. I was still able to feel blissful throughout the day though, and i believe that it helped with the recovery. I feel much better today.
This is atypical. Most people experience increased energy, inspiration, and wakefulness throughout the day following an OOBE. However, those who meditate deeply tend to have greater awareness of their body-mind complex, AKA self-awareness. This often times is interpreted by people who are less self-aware as hypochondria.
It is my firm conviction after decades of deep meditation experience that cultivating deep meditation requires a radical lifestyle change. This radical lifestyle change requires radical self-awareness, which requires deep meditation experience.
However, the herd will perceive those who make these radical lifestyle changes as eccentric.
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Yesterday, I was meditating with Anapanasati and I quickly reached this point where I was non-dual and I was sure that my breath stopped. I however, did not feel significant physical bliss in my sit. My mind was really quiet. I did feel a joy inside though, it was a slightly calm type of joy but it felt different from the very eruptive kind that I usually had. I didn't have any itch. I felt a little detached from physical sensations.
When I lay down to sleep right after the session, I suddenly felt myself wobbling and ending up in different positions in bed. I had a vision of myself following someone and I sat down to meditate. Then I flickered back and forth, from wobbling on my bed in awkward positions and meditating on that space. It was quite confusing. However, I was able to maintain lucidity for most of the dreams, although the memory of them faded away slightly quickly and I could scribble just a few notes into a dream journal that I've recently kept.
Perhaps I should try to focus more on the visual nimittas? I find that my control seems to be very scattered when I seem to move out of body. It is as if I do not have lucidity in control, but I am perfectly aware of what I am experiencing.
This time, I felt very invigorated and I woke up an hour before my alarm clock. My current practice through the day is to focus on the "no-self" of the five aggregates.
I have been cutting my diet down. I realize that eating too much can take a toll on my digestive system, and my mind seems to work much better when the stomach is empty.
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Yesterday, I was meditating with Anapanasati and I quickly reached this point where I was non-dual and I was sure that my breath stopped. I however, did not feel significant physical bliss in my sit. My mind was really quiet. I did feel a joy inside though, it was a slightly calm type of joy but it felt different from the very eruptive kind that I usually had. I didn't have any itch. I felt a little detached from physical sensations.
Non-dualism and the loss of breath-awareness is typical of the 4th jhana, so you might be getting there.
When I lay down to sleep right after the session, I suddenly felt myself wobbling and ending up in different positions in bed. I had a vision of myself following someone and I sat down to meditate. Then I flickered back and forth, from wobbling on my bed in awkward positions and meditating on that space. It was quite confusing. However, I was able to maintain lucidity for most of the dreams, although the memory of them faded away slightly quickly and I could scribble just a few notes into a dream journal that I've recently kept.
The perception of wobbling and ending up in different orientations in bed, as well as remaining lucid during the dream cycle, are classic early stages of the OOBE, which provides supporting evidence that you were in the 4th jhana during meditation.
Perhaps I should try to focus more on the visual nimittas?
All of the nimittas are critical, not just the visual nimitta.
I find that my control seems to be very scattered when I seem to move out of body. It is as if I do not have lucidity in control, but I am perfectly aware of what I am experiencing.
This time, I felt very invigorated and I woke up an hour before my alarm clock. My current practice through the day is to focus on the "no-self" of the five aggregates.
I have been cutting my diet down. I realize that eating too much can take a toll on my digestive system, and my mind seems to work much better when the stomach is empty.
It just takes skillful practice, practice and practice.
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I started college after break and didn't have as much time to post my sessions on the journal, but I still lurk around in the forum time to time. Just wanted to post a few reflections over my past sessions:
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Falling sick
I caught a flu as a result of a friend passing the virus to me, but I realized that the way to cope with this was to not identify with the body. I seemed to be quite clear about what the pain was, but it didn't seem to affect me as much. When the body was fatigued, I let it rest, but it didn't really generate any kind of "pain" towards me. I didn't classify it as anything, but just something that needed repair in the "guest-house". It came quite naturally and I haven't fallen sick for a few years, so this came as a strange surprise.
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Blissfulness
I've been rapidly getting very blissful and hot sensations in my palms and feet, sometimes as if they were burning. At certain points in my meditation, my breath would seem to stop, and an indescribable wave of ecstasy rises from within me, filling my whole body. It feels like so much energy is rushing through me - Almost like a tsunami of some sort. So much vigor... I can't seem to ride that intensity for long though, because it gets REALLY intense.
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Spatial feelings
When I get into deeper states, I often reach points where I no longer feel the body. At this point, I would have no awareness of my physical body, and it was as if I was "trapped" in physical matter. I didn't really "pop" out of my body. When I do pop out, it is normally in sleep where I do weird positions such as back-flipping out. My dreams are often lucid or half-lucid too.
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Changing exercise routines
I used to run to keep the lympatic system pumping toxins out, but now I'm switching to something that is less harsher on the knees - Jumping/jogging on a rebounder. I read in a research by NASA that it helps in building immune system function due to the g-force.
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Blissfulness
I've been rapidly getting very blissful and hot sensations in my palms and feet, sometimes as if they were burning. At certain points in my meditation, my breath would seem to stop, and an indescribable wave of ecstasy rises from within me, filling my whole body. It feels like so much energy is rushing through me - Almost like a tsunami of some sort. So much vigor... I can't seem to ride that intensity for long though, because it gets REALLY intense.
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Spatial feelings
When I get into deeper states, I often reach points where I no longer feel the body. At this point, I would have no awareness of my physical body, and it was as if I was "trapped" in physical matter. I didn't really "pop" out of my body. When I do pop out, it is normally in sleep where I do weird positions such as back-flipping out. My dreams are often lucid or half-lucid too.
Good to hear from you again, Bodhimind. Sorry to hear you were sick, but good to know that you are better. These are all good signs of deep meditation. The challenge for the mystic is to keep honing one's lifestyle, and contemplative practice to maximize the experience of deep meditation. So, good work, and keep going deeper.
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I'm starting to be a little confused...
I know that I am in a first-person's perspective... But sometimes when I go into deep states, I often go non-dual and lose even that feeling of first-person. Isn't this losing consciousness, similar to deep sleeping states? Or, is it required that we stay conscious throughout the deep state? Is good meditation one where you stay perfectly clear of what you are doing? Or do you fade in and out of this lucidity?
Sometimes I am subtly aware that I am in dreams or have left the body in sleep. However, I feel like I am powered by compulsions or certain suppressed mannerisms and repressions. I do not have much control over what I see or what happens to me. They are quite spontaneous and in the moment.
Now I'm starting to question what enlightenment really means... Some people say that it is the awakening to the dharmakaya that has always been there, union with the divine, etc. I still cannot fathom what it means, it feels as if there is a large gap between where I am and what the divine is.
From what I understand, we let the thought-stream cease so that the mind becomes clearer. So when we perceive a stimulus, it becomes a sharp juxtaposition to this unmanifest, non-dual mind. I can somewhat feel or instinctively know there is something there, but I cannot reach it.
Even when I follow the charisms, it feels as if these charisms are part of a certain sense that is birthed from this non-dual mind. I'm still stuck... I hope that I can progress in the immaterial samadhis after having strong jhana factors cultivated, and this might help me understand it experientially to a deeper degree.
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I'm starting to be a little confused...
I know that I am in a first-person's perspective... But sometimes when I go into deep states, I often go non-dual and lose even that feeling of first-person. Isn't this losing consciousness, similar to deep sleeping states? Or, is it required that we stay conscious throughout the deep state? Is good meditation one where you stay perfectly clear of what you are doing? Or do you fade in and out of this lucidity?
The loss of a sense of self is characteristic of the non-dual experience of deep meditation, and does not require loss of awareness. So, as long as you are aware, regardless of whether you have lost the other cognitive components, then you are correctly entering deep meditation states.
Sometimes I am subtly aware that I am in dreams or have left the body in sleep. However, I feel like I am powered by compulsions or certain suppressed mannerisms and repressions. I do not have much control over what I see or what happens to me. They are quite spontaneous and in the moment.
The more you master deep meditation, then the more you will be freed from your compulsions and suppressed mannerisms and repressions. This is called 'liberation' (vimokha).
Now I'm starting to question what enlightenment really means... Some people say that it is the awakening to the dharmakaya that has always been there, union with the divine, etc. I still cannot fathom what it means, it feels as if there is a large gap between where I am and what the divine is.
From what I understand, we let the thought-stream cease so that the mind becomes clearer. So when we perceive a stimulus, it becomes a sharp juxtaposition to this unmanifest, non-dual mind. I can somewhat feel or instinctively know there is something there, but I cannot reach it.
Even when I follow the charisms, it feels as if these charisms are part of a certain sense that is birthed from this non-dual mind. I'm still stuck... I hope that I can progress in the immaterial samadhis after having strong jhana factors cultivated, and this might help me understand it experientially to a deeper degree.
The first thing to get is to realize that no religion relies upon a cogent and logically sound philosophy, and relies heavily upon a deeply flawed translation of their own literature. All religions have a long history of marginalizing their mystics. Thus, mainstream religion relies upon lies, upon lies.
The unity experience is the 8th stage of samadhi, so one has to keep going deeper for that experience.
Along the way, we become more and more saturated with the signs of deep meditation (jhana-nimitta/charisms). At the third stage of deep meditation we develop equanimity. Equanimity is required for traversing all 8 stages of deep meditation. The more time you spend in deep meditation, the more equanimity one develops. So, just keep meditating deeply, and you will develop the skills you need to traverse all 8 stages of deep meditation. Once you have traverse all 8 stages of deep meditation you will be free, free, free from obsessions, compulsions, and addictions.
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Something strange happened today. It happened to be my birthday today for my physical incarnation, and I met another contemplative who had very similar experiences of bliss/joy through his kriya yoga meditations.
He told me about this video of a Western contemplative who awakened. His description was strikingly similar to what Jhanananda described, especially about Indra's Web, where he could see stars/constellations everywhere. He talked about the different realms and it seemed like he was genuinely enlightened. Here's the video, if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqYi-uM5uW4 . He starts talking about the enlightenment state around 16 minutes or so.
He describes what Jhanananda often calls being "raped by the divine". I found that particularly interesting. Just thought it might be a good watch for many others here on the forum.
I also realized that when I meet another contemplative who has had a state of attainment (from his description, my friend seems to be at least second jhana), I start to experience mini-orgasms within my body, a massive contentment and joy. It was so intense I had to stop for a while to let the joy saturate and ebb away.
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He told me about this video of a Western contemplative who awakened. His description was strikingly similar to what Jhanananda described, especially about Indra's Web, where he could see stars/constellations everywhere. He talked about the different realms and it seemed like he was genuinely enlightened. Here's the video, if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqYi-uM5uW4 . He starts talking about the enlightenment state around 16 minutes or so.
He describes what Jhanananda often calls being "raped by the divine". I found that particularly interesting. Just thought it might be a good watch for many others here on the forum.
Thank-you for the link Sat Shree - Buddha at the Gas Pump Interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqYi-uM5uW4). My first reaction is negative on the aspect that he had not lead a contemplative life, then had a "spontaneous, instant enlightenment." In my experience, and my case histories enlightenment is neither spontaneous nor instant. However, claims of "spontaneous, instant enlightenment" is typical of the fraud, and/or the well-meaning, but deluded devout.
By the way, the reference "Buddha At The Gas Pump" is surely a reference to Dan Millman's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Millman) book Way of the Peaceful Warrior (http://www.amazon.com/Way-Peaceful-Warrior-Changes-Lives/dp/1932073205/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8).
His inspirations are problematic as well:
Meher Baba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meher_Baba) was more about devotion and guru-worship, than deep meditation.
The hunger project (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunger_Project) was a project of Werner Erhard (http://Werner Erhard), who used all of the money donated to the project to end hunger, to purchase a race car and drive it on the racing circuit.
Conclusion:
It sounds like, while Sat Shree may have had a few genuine religious experiences, it is doubtful that he has sufficiently unpacked his belief systems, nor ever took up a rigorous, self-aware, contemplative life, nor developed a lifestyle that sustains genuine full spiritual awakening, to justify his claim that he is "enlightened."
When investigating any spiritual teacher's claims we always want to know what fruit that they have experienced, understand, and can teach. Core aspects of those fruit are freedom from addictive behaviors. Yes, he claims he has had some bliss, but does he understand the depth of bliss, joy and ecstasy, and a path to it?
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Happy solar return, Leo. :)
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Thank you for the analysis and clarification Jhanananda, I think I got too excited about him expressing his religious experiences that I forgot to judge one by his/her fruit.
Thank you Zack.
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Just wanted to record a pretty strange session today:
1. Sat in half-lotus and decided to start with the relaxation procedure I learnt in the Silva Method, just to mix things around a bit. I would have awareness at each part of my body, then breathe into it and relax that body-part. I went from crown to feet, then back up again. This made my body extremely free of agitations. Along the way I experienced quite a lot of kriya (referring to twitches).
2. Next, I found that just by relaxing, tactile and auditory charisms rose. I also felt like my body was rotating clockwise. So by paying attention to both the sound and the physical tingling, as well as the breath in the background, my mind became somewhat one-pointed and sustained. Bliss and joy rose. So I would assume I was in first jhana.
3. I then went into a non-dual state. I would assume this was equanimity? I am not too sure how to classify it.
4. Then came the strange part. My body started taking in air, then my chest expanded to its maximum length. At this point I was just riding along with what the body did, trying to stay detached. Then the breath stopped and my body felt like a vase of air. When this happened, my body started to get extremely hot. I felt something rise upwards, then a very, very warm sensation hung around my heart area, spreading slightly upwards to my neck. I did not feel itching of any sort - That usually happens when I felt strong heat, but this one was blissful in nature. I did not feel fear and my mind kept still throughout. It culminated at that intensity and remained there. I expected it to become too hot to bear, but this did not happen, it remained at a warm, but comfortable temperature.
5. When I got out of my meditation, I feel as if my body was very hot, and a strange bliss seems to permeate through my body, as if I got out of a hot bath. My palms were wet with sweat. My tongue seemed to have a very sweet saliva.
Extra Notes: If it is of any worth, just including that I keep my mind in wholesome states throughout the day and it is rare that I get any mood swings, just very pleasant bliss. I sometimes get very strong mini-orgasms when I am doing my daily tasks, and I have to stop for a while to let the intensity taper off. They usually are around my head area and sometimes in my upper torso. I am wondering if this is normal?
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Good work, Zack, this is all normal progress, so whatever you doing, it is working for you.
Note:
When you felt your body rotating you were on the verge of going OOBE. To go OOBE at this point would have been to go with the rotating sensation.
The sweet saliva is the olfactory charism.
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Hey Bodhimind,
The mini-orgasms you speak of I find ebb and flow for me. I know there are many days I could wake up and be in this orgasmic bliss, and spend the entire day like that. If the inner world shifts just slightly, I could see the divine in everything. I could look at someone who I find unpleasant and see God in them. I could turn my concentration inwards and see that God exists inside me. The same could be said of anything I turn my concentration towards while in that state.
I remember I used to turn my attention to certain questions when these experiences would happen, ie, Who am I? What am I? What is the nature of the universe? What is the universe contained within? This created very deep rooted and terrifying experiences. I am starting to get used to it. Relax.... relax...
I'll take note of that Jhanananda, to focus on the rotating sensation.
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Good work, Zack, this is all normal progress, so whatever you doing, it is working for you.
Note:
When you felt your body rotating you were on the verge of going OOBE. To go OOBE at this point would have been to go with the rotating sensation.
The sweet saliva is the olfactory charism.
Noted, I will ride the sensation if I experience it in future.
Hey Bodhimind,
The mini-orgasms you speak of I find ebb and flow for me. I know there are many days I could wake up and be in this orgasmic bliss, and spend the entire day like that. If the inner world shifts just slightly, I could see the divine in everything. I could look at someone who I find unpleasant and see God in them. I could turn my concentration inwards and see that God exists inside me. The same could be said of anything I turn my concentration towards while in that state.
I remember I used to turn my attention to certain questions when these experiences would happen, ie, Who am I? What am I? What is the nature of the universe? What is the universe contained within? This created very deep rooted and terrifying experiences. I am starting to get used to it. Relax.... relax...
I'll take note of that Jhanananda, to focus on the rotating sensation.
Exactly this. There is so much bliss. I find myself looking at people and also seeing how the Divine is within them, but yet these people are unable to realize that. I've also had the same experience of seeing the divine in people who have unpleasant behaviours. Yes... "who am I" really made me panic the first time I asked it, so much that I experienced a bit of a spiritual crisis.
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I've tried talking people into these experiences in non-Buddhist jargon and I find that repetition and patience is key. I continuously ask my circle of friends about their beliefs and slowly let them see the commonalities between these deep experiences I have and their religion. They are slowly starting to see how these structured religions are aberrant.
There are the people who are indoctrinated from birth to Christian thought of "join us or suffer in hell", there are the people who follow a religion but are open to others and also people who have a "universal religion" or rather different views such as believing in guardian angels.
I realized that the first is the hardest to talk to, for they quote the Bible or their pastor in whatever they say, and are quick to demote anything that you talk about. I do not generally try to push against their beliefs. I find a huge problem in the way how these pastors (or shepherds) lead their flock, as each pastor has their own interpretation of the Bible and and all of them do not agree with each other. They have no fruit and simply because they have taken a theology class, they acquired the right to preach. I tried to bring up the idea that the pastor is simply specialized in literature without having experience.
The others are much easier to talk to, they just require a bit of talking. I know a friend who recently started hearing auditory charisms.
Also, I wonder if it is possible for one to "spread" absorption states just by being in proximity? For example, when they are nearer to me, it feels as if they "tune in" and also experience slight charisms. I've managed to get them to feel the tingling and sometimes even the auditory.
On a side note, I find Catholic friends to be far easier to talk to regarding these experiences. One friend talked about his prayer practice with the rosary and how he used it to contemplate on his sins. I was thinking that he was in a way recognizing his own afflictions and dealing with them. I then asked him if he experienced rapture and he said "no", because it was a solemn procedure. In an attempt to help, I told him shifting away an unwholesome mental state (torpor as a result of the solemnity) can open one up to the blissful states. I think that if one is able to remember an experience where one felt loved, then it also can help, so I told him that. I do not know if I gave good advice, but I hope it helped.
My recent session:
Firstly, I anchored on the breath. Doing this, I withdrew from the senses and withdrew from unskillful mental qualities. Having done so, I breathed in and out, sensitive to piti and sukha. I let the body breathe on its own.
Having tingling risen in my palms, I anchored my attention to the tingling. I took note of the tension of the body and released them, taking note of the "right grip on the anchor". I also took note of the "horse-riding" metaphor. Having done so, the auditory charism rose.
I followed the tactile charism and the auditory charism was in the background. Mini-orgasms started happening within my body as the joy/bliss intensified greatly. My mind then went blank, but I was vaguely aware of mental images surfacing within my mind's eye. The orgasms grew, and then I reached a state of non-duality. I was aware of a loud, sudden sound in the background but it simply remained as a sound and did not jolt me.
I stayed with it for a while and reached a state of lighter tingling where I did not feel my body. I suspect that it might have been the manomaya, however, I was still not skilful enough to shed the body.
Another thing that I was aware of was how my neck to spine area would seem to automatically release tension and readjust itself. It felt like some energy was helping to readjust it. My head would then move along and tuck back, so that I was erect in spine.
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Was reading Jhanananda's journal entries (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Jhanananda-s_Journal/conversations/messages) and found them to be very enlightening. My heart goes out to what you've gone through. Also, I particularly liked this poem:
Hinduism and Buddhism
have a name for spiritual materialism
It is called nama rupa.
Which is ego identification
With the concepts and objects
Of religion.
Just throw the paper hats away
And go back to the wilderness,
Naked, where you came from,
And follow the way,
The truth and the life of
Freedom from identification.
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Also, I wonder if it is possible for one to "spread" absorption states just by being in proximity? For example, when they are nearer to me, it feels as if they "tune in" and also experience slight charisms. I've managed to get them to feel the tingling and sometimes even the auditory.
Yes, when a mystic meditates with others, then they have an opportunity to tap into the place where we go. This is why group meditation, and group meditation retreats are so valuable, because it can be truly life changing for those who have not tapped into the charisms yet.
My recent session:
Firstly, I anchored on the breath. Doing this, I withdrew from the senses and withdrew from unskillful mental qualities. Having done so, I breathed in and out, sensitive to piti and sukha. I let the body breathe on its own.
Having tingling risen in my palms, I anchored my attention to the tingling. I took note of the tension of the body and released them, taking note of the "right grip on the anchor". I also took note of the "horse-riding" metaphor. Having done so, the auditory charism rose.
I followed the tactile charism and the auditory charism was in the background. Mini-orgasms started happening within my body as the joy/bliss intensified greatly. My mind then went blank, but I was vaguely aware of mental images surfacing within my mind's eye. The orgasms grew, and then I reached a state of non-duality. I was aware of a loud, sudden sound in the background but it simply remained as a sound and did not jolt me.
I stayed with it for a while and reached a state of lighter tingling where I did not feel my body. I suspect that it might have been the manomaya, however, I was still not skilful enough to shed the body.
Another thing that I was aware of was how my neck to spine area would seem to automatically release tension and readjust itself. It felt like some energy was helping to readjust it. My head would then move along and tuck back, so that I was erect in spine.
Yes, this is good, skillful practice. No, it was not an OOBE (manomaya) yet. But, it does sound like the 4th jhana. For an OOBE (manomaya) to occur there must be no awareness of the external world, the body, etc., and it is hyper real (super conscious).
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Yes, this is good, skillful practice. No, it was not an OOBE (manomaya) yet. But, it does sound like the 4th jhana. For an OOBE (manomaya) to occur there must be no awareness of the external world, the body, etc., and it is hyper real (super conscious).
Thank you for the clarification, this makes a lot of sense.
I am slightly confused about something though, I remember hearing that shedding the body only happens in sleeping meditation. Or am I mistaken? It is possible for one to shed the body while in sitting? Or perhaps, is it more difficult to?
I remember an experience where i could not tell where my body was, because I lost all feelings of my body, it was as if my body was space, or like an empty container of some sort.
The only two times I had somewhat of an OOBE was when I meditated and went into sleep, and both times back-flipped out of the body (while lying down). Also, I do recall seeing a person in proximity before I left the body. Is there a possibility that there might be a being that helped me with it? Or was it simply because I reached the right state and left the body of my own volition? And the hyper-real thing I noticed was only in my auditory faculty where I could hear very pleasant music, but I was not used to having sight through my mind's eye, so I was blind through the experience.
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Thank you for the clarification, this makes a lot of sense.
I am slightly confused about something though, I remember hearing that shedding the body only happens in sleeping meditation. Or am I mistaken? It is possible for one to shed the body while in sitting? Or perhaps, is it more difficult to?
I remember an experience where i could not tell where my body was, because I lost all feelings of my body, it was as if my body was space, or like an empty container of some sort.
Generally it is true that one must be lying down to shed the body, because one can relax more deeply, when lying down, and once one leaves the body, then generally the body will just fall over when the host is gone. However, there are circumstances when one can enter very deep absorption states from a sitting position, such as from a powerful kundalini rush, because I have done this on many occasions. So, perhaps this was true for you as well. Nonetheless, the 4th jhana generally has very little awareness of the body and its surroundings associated with it.
One has to be the best judge of a subjective experience, because no one can objectively know precisely what another is doing subjectively. I only give general guidelines for one to determine one's own subjective states.
The only two times I had somewhat of an OOBE was when I meditated and went into sleep, and both times back-flipped out of the body (while lying down).
Yes, this is the general experience of the OOBE, with the exception of some people may roll out, or forward flip, or rotate disc-like. I have exited in all of these ways at one time or another.
Also, I do recall seeing a person in proximity before I left the body. Is there a possibility that there might be a being that helped me with it? Or was it simply because I reached the right state and left the body of my own volition?
Yes, people often report having a being present, who helps them out. They are often called 'guides.'
And the hyper-real thing I noticed was only in my auditory faculty where I could hear very pleasant music, but I was not used to having sight through my mind's eye, so I was blind through the experience.
Yes, we may not have all of our faculties functional when we go OOBE. When first learning to OOBE some people do not hear, and/or see, and/or cannot move.
Good work.
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Generally it is true that one must be lying down to shed the body, because one can relax more deeply, when lying down, and once one leaves the body, then generally the body will just fall over when the host is gone. However, there are circumstances when one can enter very deep absorption states from a sitting position, such as from a powerful kundalini rush, because I have done this on many occasions. So, perhaps this was true for you as well. Nonetheless, the 4th jhana generally has very little awareness of the body and its surroundings associated with it.
That clarifies things, thank you for explaining.
Yes, people often report having a being present, who helps them out. They are often called 'guides.'
Are these 'guides' attained mystics? Or are they perhaps just a deceased relative? Could it be an astral body of an existing person? Also, I was wondering if people can be pulled out of their bodies?
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I was reflecting on my life and leading a contemplative life. From what I understand, living a contemplative lifestyle is the definite path to liberation.
However, a part of me feels like I am moving along with societal norms. I am studying medicine and going to become a medical doctor. Another part of me feels like I want to experience a relationship with a woman. I recognize myself having some sort of craving for becoming close with a lady, although it has less to do with sexual craving, since I have found that the bliss of the jhanas is much greater than that of an orgasm.
In accordance to my actions, I would be expected to 'return the favor' to my parents, allow them to live a good life and then retire. They also expect me to be 'normal' - that is, to marry a woman and have a family with a job. I would also become a breadwinner of sorts, alongside with financial funding for my brother's education (he is at least a decade younger than me). With such a responsibility at hand, it is impossible for me to walk away into the woods (there aren't many in my hometown Singapore, but there are quite a few in Australia).
Part of me is telling myself: I'm only 23, I can't just leave worldly matters.
Is it enough for me, right now, to simply keep up with rigorous meditation (at least an hour or so everyday) - usually at night when everyone else has gone to sleep? From what i understand, when I get to a certain fruit, I will have to base my lifestyle around my contemplation. This would seem a particularly arduous task since the medical profession requires a very stringent schedule. I've been wrestling with this direction of my life for a long time.
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Are these 'guides' attained mystics? Or are they perhaps just a deceased relative? Could it be an astral body of an existing person? Also, I was wondering if people can be pulled out of their bodies?
Guides are generally advanced mystics who have gained control in the immaterial domains. They can help someone out of body, but only if the person is willing. If there is any resistance, then no.
I was reflecting on my life and leading a contemplative life. From what I understand, living a contemplative lifestyle is the definite path to liberation.
Yes, it is part of the righteousness that leads to emancipation.
However, a part of me feels like I am moving along with societal norms. I am studying medicine and going to become a medical doctor. Another part of me feels like I want to experience a relationship with a woman. I recognize myself having some sort of craving for becoming close with a lady, although it has less to do with sexual craving, since I have found that the bliss of the jhanas is much greater than that of an orgasm.
There is nothing wrong with the life of the householder, and a profession. If anything, the mendicant life is full of distractions. One just needs to live one's life as a rigorous, self-aware contemplative to make progress toward fruition.
In accordance to my actions, I would be expected to 'return the favor' to my parents, allow them to live a good life and then retire. They also expect me to be 'normal' - that is, to marry a woman and have a family with a job. I would also become a breadwinner of sorts, alongside with financial funding for my brother's education (he is at least a decade younger than me). With such a responsibility at hand, it is impossible for me to walk away into the woods (there aren't many in my hometown Singapore, but there are quite a few in Australia).
Part of me is telling myself: I'm only 23, I can't just leave worldly matters.
As a parent I want these things for my children as well. It is normal parenting. And, as I said above, there is no reason why one could not live a householder life, while still being a contemplative. After all, I spent 30 years as a householder: raising two children; spending 15 years at the university studying and doing research; and developing a career. So, you can to.
Is it enough for me, right now, to simply keep up with rigorous meditation (at least an hour or so everyday) - usually at night when everyone else has gone to sleep? From what i understand, when I get to a certain fruit, I will have to base my lifestyle around my contemplation. This would seem a particularly arduous task since the medical profession requires a very stringent schedule. I've been wrestling with this direction of my life for a long time.
The challenge for anyone who seeks enlightenment in this very lifetime to fit the contemplative life into whatever lifestyle one has to live. So, I started and ended every day with deep meditation, and when I returned from school and/or work, I also retreat into my meditation space. I believe it made me a better father, husband, employee, and professional. So, you can do it to, and your family and colleagues will find you better to get along with.
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As a parent I want these things for my children as well. It is normal parenting. And, as I said above, there is no reason why one could not live a householder life, while still being a contemplative. After all, I spent 30 years as a householder: raising two children; spending 15 years at the university studying and doing research; and developing a career. So, you can to.
The challenge for anyone who seeks enlightenment in this very lifetime to fit the contemplative life into whatever lifestyle one has to live. So, I started and ended every day with deep meditation, and when I returned from school and/or work, I also retreat into my meditation space. I believe it made me a better father, husband, employee, and professional. So, you can do it to, and your family and colleagues will find you better to get along with.
Thank you for clarifying this, my confusion has cleared a lot.
I was also wondering about sex and marriage. I've read the article (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/sex.htm) on the GWV a dozen times and I've been celibate for quite a while, not indulging in sexual thoughts since they are attachments to the flesh body. I've been wondering - Even though I see no need for sex, sex may be requested from my partner, should I be married. I feel like sex would be indulging in sense-pleasure and is opposite to what we do in the first jhana, which is to withdraw from sensory pleasure. How should a contemplative have sex without that sensory desire then?
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On a side note, I met with a contemplative friend who does kriya yoga to access the ecstasies. He used the entry of sound (focusing on the astral sound of the chakras) and said that it gave him full-body bliss. I could see the common points with jhana, where a one-pointed mind leads to the arising of bliss/joy in the first jhana.
Then we started discussing about Eckhart Tolle, who I remember Jhanon talked about when he wanted to write his book. I've just read his "Power of Now" and realized that he makes sense in saying that many people ruminate about the past and future. From my observation after reading his material, it seems like, to me at least, that "anxiety" relates to future thoughts and "torpor/sluggishness" relates to past thoughts. So his definition of "now" seems more like shifting away from unwholesomeness, and more like a "gateway" into experiencing the jhanas.
There was a part in the book which coincidentally talked about relationships, and it remarked that relationships were nearly almost dysfunctional, which corresponds to what Jhanananda once said about families. Coincidentally I was doing a reading on how families were formed from a biological perspective (Hamilton's Rule of cost/benefit), which pointed how the interactions leading to the formation of a family cluster were cohesively done to have the best way to "preserve" the genetic material of the individual in the future generations.
Perhaps one lesson I could learn is to improve myself, so that the relationship won't be 'addictive' but handled from an enlightened point of view. I realize that "love" is a social construct - people constitute it as external causes but it really is something we allow ourselves to feel... if I were to break it down, it's just like the state of bliss/joy. It's pleasantness...
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And an interesting verse from the Old Testament (Ecclesiastes) that seems to resonate with me now:
As everyone comes, so they depart,
and what do they gain,
since they toil for the wind?
All their days they eat in darkness,
with great frustration, affliction and anger..
Also, it seems to me that "Christ" is Atman while "God" is Brahman. Or did I perhaps get this wrong? Hence, to not believe in the Christ - means to not believe in the divine. Perhaps that is what the Christian context means. I feel that I can understand the meaning of "judgement" if it is interpreted this way.
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Thank you for clarifying this, my confusion has cleared a lot.
I was also wondering about sex and marriage. I've read the article (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/sex.htm) on the GWV a dozen times and I've been celibate for quite a while, not indulging in sexual thoughts since they are attachments to the flesh body. I've been wondering - Even though I see no need for sex, sex may be requested from my partner, should I be married. I feel like sex would be indulging in sense-pleasure and is opposite to what we do in the first jhana, which is to withdraw from sensory pleasure. How should a contemplative have sex without that sensory desire then?
Relationship for most people is hardly worth it, if sex, and reproduction, are not part of the relationship. So, one would expect that there would be some sex in a relationship.
On the other hand, relationships can lead to perdition. I know this from personal experience. So, it is better, if you feel you need relationship, to find a person with whom you can live with for the rest of your life. This would be someone who shares your value for developing the deep meditation experience, and has understood that the GWV has possibly the best handle on a lifestyle that leads there than any religion today.
On a side note, I met with a contemplative friend who does kriya yoga to access the ecstasies. He used the entry of sound (focusing on the astral sound of the chakras) and said that it gave him full-body bliss. I could see the common points with jhana, where a one-pointed mind leads to the arising of bliss/joy in the first jhana.
Then we started discussing about Eckhart Tolle, who I remember Jhanon talked about when he wanted to write his book. I've just read his "Power of Now" and realized that he makes sense in saying that many people ruminate about the past and future. From my observation after reading his material, it seems like, to me at least, that "anxiety" relates to future thoughts and "torpor/sluggishness" relates to past thoughts. So his definition of "now" seems more like shifting away from unwholesomeness, and more like a "gateway" into experiencing the jhanas.
Yes, there are many paths that lead to the first or second jhana, but none of these paths seem to recognize anything beyond the first or second jhana. The devout of every religion tend to end up in the first jhana, but absolutely reject the idea that there is anything beyond the first or second jhana.
There was a part in the book which coincidentally talked about relationships, and it remarked that relationships were nearly almost dysfunctional, which corresponds to what Jhanananda once said about families. Coincidentally I was doing a reading on how families were formed from a biological perspective (Hamilton's Rule of cost/benefit), which pointed how the interactions leading to the formation of a family cluster were cohesively done to have the best way to "preserve" the genetic material of the individual in the future generations.
As an anthropologist, and having married twice, and having fathered 3 children, I happen to find the whole reason why the nuclear family exists is successful reproduction in humans requires someone to take care of the child almost full-time during its protracted maturation. This could be done by a husband-wife team, or by a small village.
Perhaps one lesson I could learn is to improve myself, so that the relationship won't be 'addictive' but handled from an enlightened point of view. I realize that "love" is a social construct - people constitute it as external causes but it really is something we allow ourselves to feel... if I were to break it down, it's just like the state of bliss/joy. It's pleasantness...
What I observe around me in the culture at large is relationship is mostly driven by addiction of one form or another. So, I agree, one who works on him or her-self to 4th level mastery will be over addictive behavior, and be a good mate, spouse, father, etc. But, both partners in a relationship will need to be at that level, because, from my experience, having a relationship with someone who is not at 4th level mastery is likely to lead to perdition.
And an interesting verse from the Old Testament (Ecclesiastes) that seems to resonate with me now:
As everyone comes, so they depart,
and what do they gain,
since they toil for the wind?
All their days they eat in darkness,
with great frustration, affliction and anger..
Nice quote, which I believe everyone should keep in mind.
Also, it seems to me that "Christ" is Atman while "God" is Brahman. Or did I perhaps get this wrong? Hence, to not believe in the Christ - means to not believe in the divine. Perhaps that is what the Christian context means. I feel that I can understand the meaning of "judgement" if it is interpreted this way.
Well, if we were going to compare parallel concepts from one culture to the next, then I would say that avatar=Buddha=messiah=Christ.
Whereas, I would say Atman=soul.
Shakti=samadhi=Shekhinah=Holy Spirit.
And, Brahman=God.
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Relationship for most people is hardly worth it, if sex, and reproduction, are not part of the relationship. So, one would expect that there would be some sex in a relationship.
On the other hand, relationships can lead to perdition. I know this from personal experience. So, it is better, if you feel you need relationship, to find a person with whom you can live with for the rest of your life. This would be someone who shares your value for developing the deep meditation experience, and has understood that the GWV has possibly the best handle on a lifestyle that leads there than any religion today.
That makes a lot of sense. I see sex as a way for nature to maintain the genetic survival of the human animal. (This curiously brings up the various forms of reproduction like egg-born, womb-born, moisture-born, spontaneously-born - Do devas reproduce spontaneously? Do they even have a need for a birth mechanism like that?)
Unfortunately there are not many who take up mediation practice, nor meditate to similar depths as I do, nor experience the same things as I do, which can be frustrating as a relationship is often not based on such a criteria. Also, at my age, there are people who are very attached to ideas of romantic love, particularly perpetuated by the media. If I do commit into a relationship, I will be careful to find an equally self-aware life partner. From looking at relationships of both my age and older, it seems that relationships are filled with dramas, perpetual expectation meeting and as you said, it is a clinging or addiction of some sort - to feelings, thrills, anxiety, etc.
Yes, there are many paths that lead to the first or second jhana, but none of these paths seem to recognize anything beyond the first or second jhana. The devout of every religion tend to end up in the first jhana, but absolutely reject the idea that there is anything beyond the first or second jhana.
That is what I've noticed as well, especially since many people tend to equate the ayatana of infinite consciousness/space with a non-dual mind. This is especially extensive for Zen material. It confused me for a long time before I got into GWV material.
As an anthropologist, and having married twice, and having fathered 3 children, I happen to find the whole reason why the nuclear family exists is successful reproduction in humans requires someone to take care of the child almost full-time during its protracted maturation. This could be done by a husband-wife team, or by a small village.
Very interesting, because I've been doing a reading on altruistic behaviour or cooperative breeding, where allo-mothers tend to take care of offspring as a collaborative effort to increase their survival. I also find it curious how families in various species of animals tend to stay for much shorter periods than humans. It might be that the human animal has a longer dependency due to the very complex navigation they have to learn in "society".
What I observe around me in the culture at large is relationship is mostly driven by addiction of one form or another. So, I agree, one who works on him or her-self to 4th level mastery will be over addictive behavior, and be a good mate, spouse, father, etc. But, both partners in a relationship will need to be at that level, because, from my experience, having a relationship with someone who is not at 4th level mastery is likely to lead to perdition.
I will take note of that. As I intend to lead a contemplative lifestyle to follow in the footsteps of the Buddha and the sangha, I may either remain celibate/single or find a partner who shares in that ideal.
Well, if we were going to compare parallel concepts from one culture to the next, then I would say that avatar=Buddha=messiah=Christ.
Whereas, I would say Atman=soul.
Shakti=samadhi=Shekhinah=Holy Spirit.
And, Brahman=God.
Thank you for that, it clears things up.
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Just another blog entry.
One night back, I talked to a friend who expressed frustrations over people who were not self-aware. Having heard this, I immediately recognized it as a proto-contemplative view, since I used to have the same perspective and felt ever since I was 3, that people were walking zombies (I believe I had my mild dark night in that time, because I was not aware that I meditated and lucid-dreamt intensely in my childhood). He expressed very agreeable points. I agreed with him that people do not exercise caution over their speech, actions and thoughts, mainly because they are not self-aware. If they were, they would not be engaging in harsh talk, gossip, idle-talk, etc.
I also heard from a friend that her boyfriend recently got into the 'mindfulness' trend and suddenly switched around from an adamant atheist into someone with a review as such "all religions just have different costumes". Hearing that, perhaps the 'mindful' movement going around might have some form of benefit as an entry-point for people into deep-meditation. But it is only an entry-point, I wish more people exercised caution on the accuracy of their words.
I also recognized in interactions between people, that one side sometimes bears unrealistic expectations, thinking that the other side can "mind-read" him. When the expectation is not met, one becomes befallen with suffering. And the core reason why he even had that expectation was fuelled by habit, as well as a self-view. From this, I can see how removing our neuroses and addictions can help us be better in relationships. However sometimes, relationships with people can seem to steer in ways that you did not previously mean.
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Whenever I get the chance, I sit down to meditate. The frequency seems to increase, from once to twice to sometimes thrice. However, due to my hectic schedule, I can only have one session that last for an hour, before I go to sleep. I tend to have very intense dreams after that session, and see friends I know in various puzzling situations. Perhaps it reflects the craving and worries I still bear in my psyche, in a Jungian way.
Sometimes the joy can be accompanied with a little inner-crying. It feels beautiful and I find much comfort in it.
----
I was reflecting on the process of the Buddha's self-discovery. He had a very scientific mind, for he always tested things out to its eventual fruition, before he asked the question: "Does this lead to nibbana/cessation?" He mastered the samadhis of nothingness and no-perception-nor-non-perception, realized it was not cessation, then realized that the way is in jhana.
This also posed a strange question I have been thinking about: Doesn't this directly imply that it is possible that one reaches these two ayatana achievements without the jhanas, and hence bear no fruit of enlightenment?
If that is the case, then maybe it could indicate why some people interpret jhana as something without joy in the ayatanas. Maybe it is the source of variability in people who have some of these "still-mind" experiences.
On GWV, the 8th samadhi (or immaterial absorptions) is written to be fusion with God here (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/nondualistjhana.htm). Here is where I am a little puzzled and am trying to understand. From what I understand, the Buddha erroneously mastered the 8th samadhi under one of his teachers. Is this the same samadhi spoken of in the page here (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/nondualistjhana.htm)? Or is it maybe because the Buddha did not acquire the factors in jhana, and hence could not experience that ayatana in full?
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That makes a lot of sense. I see sex as a way for nature to maintain the genetic survival of the human animal. (This curiously brings up the various forms of reproduction like egg-born, womb-born, moisture-born, spontaneously-born - Do devas reproduce spontaneously? Do they even have a need for a birth mechanism like that?)
Reproduction is one of the prime directives of all organisms, so it is a powerful instinct for all species, including humans. On the other hand, since reproduction is purely about perpetuating a species, it therefore has nothing to do with the immaterial domains, so there is no reproduction there.
Unfortunately there are not many who take up mediation practice, nor meditate to similar depths as I do, nor experience the same things as I do, which can be frustrating as a relationship is often not based on such a criteria. Also, at my age, there are people who are very attached to ideas of romantic love, particularly perpetuated by the media. If I do commit into a relationship, I will be careful to find an equally self-aware life partner. From looking at relationships of both my age and older, it seems that relationships are filled with dramas, perpetual expectation meeting and as you said, it is a clinging or addiction of some sort - to feelings, thrills, anxiety, etc.
Agreed, there are definite problems with relationship undermining the contemplative life. At the time that I met both of my wives at different times, I met them at meditation retreats, which were organized by an organization that I felt valued meditation for the cultivation of mysticism, so I thought it was a good environment to meet a mate. Unfortunately in both cases these women were only attending that organization to meet a mate, who would be disciplined, but were not disciplined themselves. In both cases they were able to carry on the charade long enough to get married and get pregnant.
Even though the organization on the surface was dedicated to meditation for the cultivation of mysticism; nonetheless, the guru was only interested in enriching himself, and the organization was only interested in recognizing the guru as one who had attained, but whom only was a good actor, and was otherwise seducing the wives of his disciples and stockpiling gold. So, it was just one big fraud; therefore I now access individuals and organizations using the phrase, "we know a tree by its fruit.
That is what I've noticed as well, especially since many people tend to equate the ayatana of infinite consciousness/space with a non-dual mind. This is especially extensive for Zen material. It confused me for a long time before I got into GWV material.
Yes, we always have to follow the other adage, "buyer beware."
Very interesting, because I've been doing a reading on altruistic behaviour or cooperative breeding, where allo-mothers tend to take care of offspring as a collaborative effort to increase their survival. I also find it curious how families in various species of animals tend to stay for much shorter periods than humans. It might be that the human animal has a longer dependency due to the very complex navigation they have to learn in "society".
Yes, I agree on all of your points. Human reproduction and development is most probably better done on the level of a small village, where everyone participates in the protracted training and maturation of the child. This allows for more breaks to be taken by the parents, and child, so that they are not forced into isolation behind closed doors. I imagine this kind of reproduction and training of children could be quite wholesomely done in a coed contemplative community. I have been working on this concept for the last 15 years, but there has not been enough participation in the idea to bring it to fruition.
I will take note of that. As I intend to lead a contemplative lifestyle to follow in the footsteps of the Buddha and the sangha, I may either remain celibate/single or find a partner who shares in that ideal.
If you stick to this plan, then I see no reason why it would lead to anything other than liberation for you, and anyone you may be in relationship with. My case histories show there are as many women with attainment as men. The problem is we are all spread out thinly, and almost never meet. This is in part why I have been encouraging retreat attendance.
Just another blog entry.
One night back, I talked to a friend who expressed frustrations over people who were not self-aware. Having heard this, I immediately recognized it as a proto-contemplative view, since I used to have the same perspective and felt ever since I was 3, that people were walking zombies (I believe I had my mild dark night in that time, because I was not aware that I meditated and lucid-dreamt intensely in my childhood). He expressed very agreeable points. I agreed with him that people do not exercise caution over their speech, actions and thoughts, mainly because they are not self-aware. If they were, they would not be engaging in harsh talk, gossip, idle-talk, etc.
I also heard from a friend that her boyfriend recently got into the 'mindfulness' trend and suddenly switched around from an adamant atheist into someone with a review as such "all religions just have different costumes". Hearing that, perhaps the 'mindful' movement going around might have some form of benefit as an entry-point for people into deep-meditation. But it is only an entry-point, I wish more people exercised caution on the accuracy of their words.
I also recognized in interactions between people, that one side sometimes bears unrealistic expectations, thinking that the other side can "mind-read" him. When the expectation is not met, one becomes befallen with suffering. And the core reason why he even had that expectation was fuelled by habit, as well as a self-view. From this, I can see how removing our neuroses and addictions can help us be better in relationships. However sometimes, relationships with people can seem to steer in ways that you did not previously mean.
Yes, I value atheism for its critique of organized religion, and see it as a developmental path that could lead to mysticism, but too often people do not take the criticism of organized religion deep enough to arrive at the contemplative life.
Those who do arrive at the contemplative life generally represent people who have unpacked the religion of their culture enough to realize that the contemplative life might just be part of the "righteousness" that is discussed in the Bible and Gospels. Unfortunately, just because someone has scraped below the surface of the cultural belief systems, and begun to practice meditation, does not mean that they are going to engage enough in meditation and cultural criticism to arrive at fruition. Thus, the only people who have had any success with meditation are those who accidentally bump into the mystical states, and found out that almost no meditation teacher today understands deep meditation, then they have to search enough to find the GWV archives and/or this forum.
Whenever I get the chance, I sit down to meditate. The frequency seems to increase, from once to twice to sometimes thrice. However, due to my hectic schedule, I can only have one session that last for an hour, before I go to sleep. I tend to have very intense dreams after that session, and see friends I know in various puzzling situations. Perhaps it reflects the craving and worries I still bear in my psyche, in a Jungian way.
We start out with filling our free time with meditation, whenever we can, and it often ends up, as you described. As for lucid dreaming about friends, I explain this using the Jungian concept of the "collective unconscious," in which dreamers are dreaming in a collective way, and we who take up a skillful contemplative life begin to become lucid in the dream space, and end up becoming aware of the collective unconscious and thus the shared dream-time of our friends and family.
Sometimes the joy can be accompanied with a little inner-crying. It feels beautiful and I find much comfort in it.
Weeping is a part of becoming a mystic, but it is almost exclusively expressed in Christian mysticism.
I was reflecting on the process of the Buddha's self-discovery. He had a very scientific mind, for he always tested things out to its eventual fruition, before he asked the question: "Does this lead to nibbana/cessation?" He mastered the samadhis of nothingness and no-perception-nor-non-perception, realized it was not cessation, then realized that the way is in jhana.
I agree. This critical testing of philosophies and contemplative practices is a characteristic of all genuine mystics; however, it is not always expressed that way in the literature that is associated with all mystics.
This also posed a strange question I have been thinking about: Doesn't this directly imply that it is possible that one reaches these two ayatana achievements without the jhanas, and hence bear no fruit of enlightenment?
If that is the case, then maybe it could indicate why some people interpret jhana as something without joy in the ayatanas. Maybe it is the source of variability in people who have some of these "still-mind" experiences.
If we consider that the 4 ayatanas are all OOBEs, then we can see that some mystics get hung-up in the fantastic world of the OOBE, and never find liberation, because they overlook the cognitive developmental phase of the 4 jhanas.
On GWV, the 8th samadhi (or immaterial absorptions) is written to be fusion with God here (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/nondualistjhana.htm). Here is where I am a little puzzled and am trying to understand. From what I understand, the Buddha erroneously mastered the 8th samadhi under one of his teachers. Is this the same samadhi spoken of in the page here (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/nondualistjhana.htm)? Or is it maybe because the Buddha did not acquire the factors in jhana, and hence could not experience that ayatana in full?
If I recall correctly, in the two suttas that describe Siddhartha Gautama's journey to enlightenment (MN-26 (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/tipitaka/sutta/majjhima/mn026-tb0.html) and MN-36 (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/mahaasaccakasutta.htm)) you will see that the 8th samadhi was not something that he had developed but the 5th through the 7th. The problem of missing this can be due to translation error, where most of the translators never practiced meditation, or at least never developed the art of deep meditation.
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Thank you for the clarification, I appreciate it.
Reproduction is one of the prime directives of all organisms, so it is a powerful instinct for all species, including humans. On the other hand, since reproduction is purely about perpetuating a species, it therefore has nothing to do with the immaterial domains, so there is no reproduction there.
This makes sense.
Agreed, there are definite problems with relationship undermining the contemplative life. At the time that I met both of my wives at different times, I met them at meditation retreats, which were organized by an organization that I felt valued meditation for the cultivation of mysticism, so I thought it was a good environment to meet a mate. Unfortunately in both cases these women were only attending that organization to meet a mate, who would be disciplined, but were not disciplined themselves. In both cases they were able to carry on the charade long enough to get married and get pregnant.
Even though the organization on the surface was dedicated to meditation for the cultivation of mysticism; nonetheless, the guru was only interested in enriching himself, and the organization was only interested in recognizing the guru as one who had attained, but whom only was a good actor, and was otherwise seducing the wives of his disciples and stockpiling gold. So, it was just one big fraud; therefore I now access individuals and organizations using the phrase, "we know a tree by its fruit.
Yes, I now try to stay away from idol-like organizations and organized 'religion' until I can be sure that one has the fruits of attainment.
Yes, I agree on all of your points. Human reproduction and development is most probably better done on the level of a small village, where everyone participates in the protracted training and maturation of the child. This allows for more breaks to be taken by the parents, and child, so that they are not forced into isolation behind closed doors. I imagine this kind of reproduction and training of children could be quite wholesomely done in a coed contemplative community. I have been working on this concept for the last 15 years, but there has not been enough participation in the idea to bring it to fruition.
I am curious, how would this village work? It sounds like a pleasant community to live within.
If you stick to this plan, then I see no reason why it would lead to anything other than liberation for you, and anyone you may be in relationship with. My case histories show there are as many women with attainment as men. The problem is we are all spread out thinly, and almost never meet. This is in part why I have been encouraging retreat attendance.
That makes sense. I would love to attend a retreat with everyone else, but perhaps it is my life's conditions that have not allowed me to do so.
We start out with filling our free time with meditation, whenever we can, and it often ends up, as you described. As for lucid dreaming about friends, I explain this using the Jungian concept of the "collective unconscious," in which dreamers are dreaming in a collective way, and we who take up a skillful contemplative life begin to become lucid in the dream space, and end up becoming aware of the collective unconscious and thus the shared dream-time of our friends and family.
Oh, that makes more sense now. Since everyone goes to the dream space at the same time, would be it safe to say that it is likely that we all access this collective unconscious at the same time as well? How does dream space differ from the physical space/astral space?
If we consider that the 4 ayatanas are all OOBEs, then we can see that some mystics get hung-up in the fantastic world of the OOBE, and never find liberation, because they overlook the cognitive developmental phase of the 4 jhanas.
If I recall correctly, in the two suttas that describe Siddhartha Gautama's journey to enlightenment (MN-26 (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/tipitaka/sutta/majjhima/mn026-tb0.html) and MN-36 (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/mahaasaccakasutta.htm)) you will see that the 8th samadhi was not something that he had developed but the 5th through the 7th. The problem of missing this can be due to translation error, where most of the translators never practiced meditation, or at least never developed the art of deep meditation.
Opps, I think it might have been error on my part. Is it safe to say that the 8th is the last absorption? Or is the "9th" nirvana?
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I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but it seems that kundalini has an equivalent in Christianity, known as the fire of love or "incendium amoris", written by Richard Rolle (link to excerpts (http://people.bu.edu/dklepper/RN413/rolle.html)).
"I have wondered more than I can tell," Rolle says, "when first I felt my heart grow warm, and glow with no imaginary, but with a real, and as it were, sensible flame. So I marvelled, when that flame first burst forth in my soul, and was in unwonted peace, through the unexpectedness of this abundance. . . . . For I had not reckoned taht such a warmth could happen to any man in this exile. . . . . . for even as a finger, placed in the fire, is clothed with heat which it feels, so the soul, kindled in this manner, as I have told, is sensible of the most real heat; but now fiercer and greater, now less, even as the frailty of the flesh allows...
As far as my study of Scripture goes, I have found that to love Christ above all else will involve three things: warmth and song and sweetness. And these three, as I know from personal experience, cannot exist for long without there being great quiet.....
In these three things (which are the sign of love in its most perfect form) the utmost perfection of the Christian religion is undoubtedly found.....
I call it fervour when the mind is truly ablaze with eternal love, and the heart similarly feels itself burning with a love that is not imaginary but real. For a heart set on fire produces a feeling of fiery love.
I call it song when there is in the soul, overflowing and ardent, a sweet feeling of heavenly praise; when thought turns into song; when the mind is in thrall to sweetest harmony.
This twofold awareness is not achieved by doing nothing, but through the utmost devotion; and from these two there springs the third, for unspeakable sweetness is present too. Fervour and song bring marvellous delight to a soul, just as they themselves can be the product of very great sweetness.
...still I lack those things which show the Beloved to the one who longs for him. And this wounds me, and fills me with longing, but gives no ease at all; rather it increases it, because with my growing love my longing increases too.... Love it is that tortures me, love that delights me. It tortures, because what is loved so much is not immediately granted me; yet it delights, because it refreshes me with hope, and infuses indescribable comfort through its very heat.
For a mighty longing develops when there is in the soul through its joy and love the song of songs, and the fierce heat produces further sweet delight. For now one likes to think that death is life. For the flower that this thought nourishes can never die, but the splendour which all the while is growing in the lover, and which seems so wonderful, makes of death and music one thing....
Also, some interesting quotes:
If any man could achieve both lives at once, the contemplative and the active, and sustain and fulfil them, he would be great indeed. He would maintain a ministry with his body, and at the same time experience within himself the song of heaven, absorbed in melody and the joy of everlasting love. I do not know if anybody has ever done this: it seems to me impossible to do both at once. We must not reckon Christ in this respect as an ordinary man, nor his blessed Mother as an ordinary woman. For Christ did not have wandering thoughts, nor did he contemplate in the way that saints in this life commonly do. He did not need to work at it as we need, because from the moment of his conception he saw God.
It was beautifully written - despite this being a translation.
Also, I reflected on Sam talked about in his "physical transformation" thread and realized that Catholicism talks about "bodily incorruptibility" where corpses do not go through rigor mortis or decay. I know Yogananda, Tsong Khapa, St Catherine of Genoa and St. Francis have full-body "relics", so perhaps they might have gone through that physical transformation.
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Hello friends and fellow contemplatives,
I hope to get an update on my practice and life experiences up soon. I have some questions of my own, but I wanted to get on here and say thank you to bohdimind, Alexander, Michel, and whoever else has been posting questions lately and investigating these states and spiritual texts. You all ask such similar questions that I would ask myself, and this makes me feel I am among like minded individuals, something I do not have in my daily life.
Rougeleader
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I am curious, how would this village work? It sounds like a pleasant community to live within.
That sounds like a topic for a lengthy discussion under another thread, but I imagine that the community would be egalitarian.
Since everyone goes to the dream space at the same time, would be it safe to say that it is likely that we all access this collective unconscious at the same time as well? How does dream space differ from the physical space/astral space?
The immaterial domains are not restricted to linear time, so someone could be in a different time zone than another, and yet still experience each other in a lucid dream time or OOBE.
Is it safe to say that the 8th is the last absorption? Or is the "9th" nirvana?
In the suttas, there are just 8 stages of samadhi. The 9th stages is liberation, which is the product of shedding the obsessions from negotiating the 8 stages of samadhi.
I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but it seems that kundalini has an equivalent in Christianity, known as the fire of love or "incendium amoris", written by Richard Rolle (link to excerpts (http://people.bu.edu/dklepper/RN413/rolle.html)).
The experience of a powerful energy rushing up the spine has been referred to with different terms in different religions at different times. It has been called 'divine rape' in Christian literature. It has also been called the 'holy spirit' etc. In Hinduism, it has been referred to as 'shakti,' 'virya,' ad 'kundalini.'
Also, I reflected on Sam talked about in his "physical transformation" thread and realized that Catholicism talks about "bodily incorruptibility" where corpses do not go through rigor mortis or decay. I know Yogananda, Tsong Khapa, St Catherine of Genoa and St. Francis have full-body "relics", so perhaps they might have gone through that physical transformation.
If we look outside of Christianity we find very well preserved bodies, which were not the body of a saint. It just got well preserved due to the right conditions. Also, if we look at Tibetan Buddhism they consider it sacred when there is nothing left of the body. So, which is it, incorruptibility or complete dissolution? I do not buy either. Let us just focus open one thing. We know a tree by its fruits, but let us not obsess over the dead, and learn to become mystics our self.
Good to read a message from you Rougeleader. I hope you are well and making progress.
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These are great quotes. I have experienced what he says many times. They are not references to kundalini, but the inner heat which can be felt after opening the heart. The Asian equivalent would be opening the heart chakra.
For now one likes to think that death is life.
For I had not reckoned that such a warmth could happen to any man in this exile...
These are great passages. The way he writes is so elegant. It's shocking he uses the same words I do. To live in exile, and choose death over life, are the way to make progress on the spiritual path.
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These are great passages. The way he writes is so elegant. It's shocking he uses the same words I do. To live in exile, and choose death over life, are the way to make progress on the spiritual path
How interesting you say. My friend said last night to live with death is to be more spiritually in-tune. I was shocked at her working and thought, yeah how true.
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That sounds like a topic for a lengthy discussion under another thread, but I imagine that the community would be egalitarian.
Possibly accommodating for the various differences in people as well? Since not everyone is born in the same way. I think that will only be possible in a mystic community. There is also a question of corruption, although I find that more likely in a bureaucracy that controls allocation of provisions.
If we look outside of Christianity we find very well preserved bodies, which were not the body of a saint. It just got well preserved due to the right conditions. Also, if we look at Tibetan Buddhism they consider it sacred when there is nothing left of the body. So, which is it, incorruptibility or complete dissolution? I do not buy either. Let us just focus open one thing. We know a tree by its fruits, but let us not obsess over the dead, and learn to become mystics our self.
Thank you Jhanananda, for the reminder to not get side-tracked.
These are great quotes. I have experienced what he says many times. They are not references to kundalini, but the inner heat which can be felt after opening the heart. The Asian equivalent would be opening the heart chakra.
For now one likes to think that death is life.
For I had not reckoned that such a warmth could happen to any man in this exile...
These are great passages. The way he writes is so elegant. It's shocking he uses the same words I do. To live in exile, and choose death over life, are the way to make progress on the spiritual path.
Now that you mention it, that makes more sense. I found his expression beautiful too.
I also found that repeatedly facing the fact that one is impermanent and will die anyway was one of the keys to helping me let go... (especially the Kayagati-sati Sutta's description of comparing corpses and the current body). Perhaps I have not reached that insight yet... but I hope to understand why one would want to live in exile. Is it because one does not want to become well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society (in the words of Krishnamurti)?
How interesting you say. My friend said last night to live with death is to be more spiritually in-tune. I was shocked at her working and thought, yeah how true.
Hmm... perhaps it is because we grasp at becoming that we feel much pain. I agree with looking at death, but a question just popped in my head...
In DN 2, the Samannaphala Sutta, one of the wrong views was Annihilation (by Ajita). He believed that in death, everything breaks up and there is complete annihilation. I was wondering... When we contemplate death, how should we view it? Since the Buddha talks about in the Kayagata-sati Sutta as such:
"Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, and hawks, by dogs, hyenas, and various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh and blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions -- here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a chest bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies that experience to this very body, 'This body, too will die and decay: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.'
Do we see death as simply the end of a physical body - and not the "annihilation of existence"?
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How interesting you say. My friend said last night to live with death is to be more spiritually in-tune. I was shocked at her working and thought, yeah how true.
Hmm... perhaps it is because we grasp at becoming that we feel much pain. I agree with looking at death, but a question just popped in my head...
In DN 2, the Samannaphala Sutta, one of the wrong views was Annihilation (by Ajita). He believed that in death, everything breaks up and there is complete annihilation. I was wondering... When we contemplate death, how should we view it? Since the Buddha talks about in the Kayagata-sati Sutta as such:
"Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, and hawks, by dogs, hyenas, and various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh and blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions -- here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a chest bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies that experience to this very body, 'This body, too will die and decay: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.'
Do we see death as simply the end of a physical body - and not the "annihilation of existence"?
I believe, bodhimind, you are speaking of DN-1, not 2.
I find the point of DN-1 is all belief systems are speculative, so one can never know the truth of a belief system, without becoming a mystic, traveling out of body, space and time to verify any of the belief systems.
However, in my experience of traveling out of body, through space and time I found, while the body is impermanent and will eventually die; nonetheless, that which can travel out of body, through space and time, lives on, and never dies. This, I believe is what was referred to in the suttas as the deathless (amatta) (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,1055.0.html), and I also believe it is precisely the 'eternal life' (aiōnios αἰώνιος eternal, zōē ζωὴ life) (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,1055.0.html) that is referred to in the Gospels.
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I believe, bodhimind, you are speaking of DN-1, not 2.
I find the point of DN-1 is all belief systems are speculative, so one can never know the truth of a belief system, without becoming a mystic, traveling out of body, space and time to verify any of the belief systems.
However, in my experience of traveling out of body, through space and time I found, while the body is impermanent and will eventually die; nonetheless, that which can travel out of body, through space and time, lives on, and never dies. This, I believe is what was referred to in the suttas as the deathless (amatta), and I also believe it is precisely the 'eternal life' (aiōnios αἰώνιος eternal, zōē ζωὴ life) that is referred to in the Gospels.
Thank you for shedding light on that. I was wondering, how does "anatta" work with this? From modern commentary (which might be wrong), it is about 'no self'... Does this mean that when you shed the layers of the ego and reach the deathless, that is not considered 'self' since it is already union with the Divine?
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I am getting intense shivers of joy as well as mini-orgasms. I feel that when I keep my posture straight and relaxed, it never feels to bring a wave of pure orgasm from my back up my neck and into my head area. I am usually not meditating when this happens. This orgasm permeates the whole day and I rarely feel tired, although I can still feel fatigue of my body (I don't know if this makes sense...)
I was pondering about the meaning of love too. I know it is not limerence or hormone-driven sensations. Perhaps it is the act of surrendering, which brings about bliss and hence is called 'love'. Or perhaps it is about union or yoga, since everything seems connected.
I feel a tiny pressure against my forehead. Also, I do not know if it is some kind of illusion, but sometimes within the ringing charism I seem to imagine some kind of mantra in the background.... like a vast voice with "aum".
Also, I see the various scattered colors of light reflecting off dust in the air... and the surroundings look very vibrant or is tinted by this rainbow-colored static. Maybe it is visual snow.
I tried a different practice... I rotated a little in my swivel chair, then pull my legs up to meditate, so that I can recognize the feel of "spinning" or "rotation". Even though the chair stopped, I felt like 'something' was still rotating or moving. I wonder if this is a good way to understand more about the manomaya? Or is this perhaps just a mind-trick?
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Thank you for shedding light on that. I was wondering, how does "anatta" work with this? From modern commentary (which might be wrong), it is about 'no self'... Does this mean that when you shed the layers of the ego and reach the deathless, that is not considered 'self' since it is already union with the Divine?
While I can see how it can be confusing, it is important to keep in mind that deathless (amatta) (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,1055.0.html) is not anatta (no-self). These are two separate terms, that are only related, because when one arrives at deathless (amatta) (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,1055.0.html), one has also arrived at anatta (no-self).
I am getting intense shivers of joy as well as mini-orgasms. I feel that when I keep my posture straight and relaxed, it never feels to bring a wave of pure orgasm from my back up my neck and into my head area. I am usually not meditating when this happens. This orgasm permeates the whole day and I rarely feel tired, although I can still feel fatigue of my body (I don't know if this makes sense...)
Congratulations you have successfully given rise to the kundalini (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/board,6.0.html), which is also understood as 'energy' and is called 'virya' in the suttas.
I was pondering about the meaning of love too. I know it is not limerence or hormone-driven sensations. Perhaps it is the act of surrendering, which brings about bliss and hence is called 'love'. Or perhaps it is about union or yoga, since everything seems connected.
Yes, I agree, the universal love that one who meditates deeply feels, might be the 'bliss' that is described by most mystics. It also suggests that the term 'love' used in the Gospels, might just be this feeling of universal love that is also called 'bliss.'
I feel a tiny pressure against my forehead. Also, I do not know if it is some kind of illusion, but sometimes within the ringing charism I seem to imagine some kind of mantra in the background.... like a vast voice with "aum".
The pressure in the forehead of one who meditates deeply is the opening of the third eye, which is also known as the 7th chakra.
Also, I see the various scattered colors of light reflecting off dust in the air... and the surroundings look very vibrant or is tinted by this rainbow-colored static. Maybe it is visual snow.
If it is purely optical in nature, as you have described it, then it is not a charism; however, some mystics describe a luminosity that life takes on when one learns to meditate deeply. This is a charism.
I tried a different practice... I rotated a little in my swivel chair, then pull my legs up to meditate, so that I can recognize the feel of "spinning" or "rotation". Even though the chair stopped, I felt like 'something' was still rotating or moving. I wonder if this is a good way to understand more about the manomaya? Or is this perhaps just a mind-trick?
Perhaps it will work for you, and others.
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The pressure on my forehead goes on and off...
Also I've been getting quite intense dreams (half-lucid like)...
Today I woke up two times in the middle of my dreams.
The first time was a very intense electric shock that bolted through my body. It came together with a vision where I touched a power source and it sent this strong pulse through my body. I bolted awake, then when I looked upwards into where my "third eye" could be, I saw the same visions of very clear images.
I could not read the writing. It looked a little like "rune language"... A little like Germanic runes. I had no prior exposure to this and had to look it up on google based on suspicion, similar to the sanskrit I saw in a kaleidoscope like spectral in a previous vision (a few months ago). Then I tried to change the images that surfaced up and they dissolved into a blur-like sphere.
I am not aware of what happened next as I seem to have lost the memory... or perhaps fell unconscious again.
The second was when I started crying and woke up, after hearing a sentence from someone who could have been a father to me (he felt like a father) and it was so real. It went something like "you have to change yourself first before trying to change the world".
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The pressure on my forehead goes on and off...
In the beginning for most of us mystics the charisms will go off and on randomly until we consistently deepen the depth of our meditation experience.
Also I've been getting quite intense dreams (half-lucid like)...
Today I woke up two times in the middle of my dreams.
We can expect that for one who consistently meditates to depth.
The first time was a very intense electric shock that bolted through my body. It came together with a vision where I touched a power source and it sent this strong pulse through my body.
In my experience one can indeed experience very powerful kundalini rises during a "dream" as you described. Often the mind attempts to interpret that experience as in something that one might be familiar with, such as: a burn or an electrical shock.
I bolted awake, then when I looked upwards into where my "third eye" could be, I saw the same visions of very clear images.
I could not read the writing. It looked a little like "rune language"... A little like Germanic runes. I had no prior exposure to this and had to look it up on google based on suspicion, similar to the sanskrit
I too have had many lucid dreams and OOBEs since I was a teenager that contained various written languages, such as Sanskrit. Interestingly I would often be able to read it in the dream/OOBE, but not be able to do so in the waking state.
I saw in a kaleidoscope like spectral in a previous vision (a few months ago). Then I tried to change the images that surfaced up and they dissolved into a blur-like sphere.
I found the spheroids, and kaleidoscopes and also tunnels of light generally were on either side of an OOBE, either as I am lifting out, or returning to the body.
The second was when I started crying and woke up, after hearing a sentence from someone who could have been a father to me (he felt like a father) and it was so real. It went something like "you have to change yourself first before trying to change the world".
Yes, I too have had many lucid dreams and OOBEs where I met a wise person and/or father or mother figure who imparted wisdom to me. Often these lucid dreams and OOBEs would end with deep sobbing.
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In my experience one can indeed experience very powerful kundalini rises during a "dream" as you described. Often the mind attempts to interpret that experience as in something that one might be familiar with, such as: a burn or an electrical shock.
That might explain why my body felt jolted, yet as if it was filled with vigor. It felt a bit like I was zapped by an electrical shock throughout my body, perhaps up my spine to my crown. I do not know if this is of any significance, but I touched the battery-like thing in my dream with my right hand. Then the shock was instantaneous.
I too have had many lucid dreams and OOBEs since I was a teenager that contained various written languages, such as Sanskrit. Interestingly I would often be able to read it in the dream/OOBE, but not be able to do so in the waking state.
That is strange... perhaps I was too affected by the shock that all I could relate to were the images flashing. Maybe I need to be more lucid and absorbed to be able to understand what they meant. Is this memory that surfaced from the collective unconscious perhaps? Or would it indicate prior exposure in a past life?
I found the spheroids, and kaleidoscopes and also tunnels of light generally were on either side of an OOBE, either as I am lifting out, or returning to the body.
That explains it! I think I might have been returning to my body. Now that I recall, perhaps the jolt came along with myself snapping back into my body, which explains why I felt a sudden weight increase.
Yes, I too have had many lucid dreams and OOBEs where I met a wise person and/or father or mother figure who imparted wisdom to me. Often these lucid dreams and OOBEs would end with deep sobbing.
Yes, it is strange though, because I recently learnt this lesson perhaps a year ago. Recurring themes seem to appear in a person's life... is it true?
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I was pondering over the concept of amatta, and realized that if there is no-self... Then where do all the individualities come from? If there is no-self, wouldn't it be that all beings came from this same Deathless? And also, wouldn't this mean that everyone is one and the same? Like, I am meeting myself, talking to myself, seeing myself everywhere... It is as if the whole cosmos was a hall of mirrors, and everything is reflected in different manners, but the source is the same... And just like how a system in physics returns to a net balance in energy, it might also seem that all the many conditions moving around in the cosmos are all about bringing a certain balance.
Also, I have been consistently trying to do lying-down meditation instead of "giving up to unconsciousness" in sleep. I find that part of when I slept in the past, I tend to allow myself to become 'unconscious' and knock myself out, so that I can go into the deep sleep process. When this happens, I am never lucid. When I did lying-down meditation, I did not manage to rise out of my body. However, it gave rise to intense dreams. It gives me the impression as if I was treading water, and my face was rising out of the water (lucidity) and then falling back down as I drown (in unconsciousness).
I was wondering, how the sleep cycles reconcile with our trips into the dream spaces. According to observations in studies, we get visions/dream experiences when we hit the REM phase, noted by rapid eye movement. Sleep paralysis holds the body down so that we don't thrash around in dreams. Then after a while, we go back into the non-REM phase. The funny thing is that sleep revolves in between REM and non-REM phases. I was wondering if this also means that we leave and re-enter the dream space multiple times during the span of a night's rest. One thing that was curious was that my eyes were obviously not flickering around when I had those spectral-like kaleidoscopes. Perhaps I returned back to my body at that point. I looked upwards and it seemed as if the place where the 'third eye' is said to be feels like a mental screen.
Pardon me for going on and on again with so many questions... I find myself so restless as my whole mind thinking about these experiences. I have been thinking of this for the whole day.
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Is this memory that surfaced from the collective unconscious perhaps? Or would it indicate prior exposure in a past life?
In my case it was recollection of previous lifetimes. Perhaps it was in your case as well.
Yes, it is strange though, because I recently learnt this lesson perhaps a year ago. Recurring themes seem to appear in a person's life... is it true?
Yes, as long as there is something to be learned, then those lessons are often repeated as long as we need them.
I was pondering over the concept of amatta, and realized that if there is no-self... Then where do all the individualities come from? If there is no-self, wouldn't it be that all beings came from this same Deathless? And also, wouldn't this mean that everyone is one and the same? Like, I am meeting myself, talking to myself, seeing myself everywhere... It is as if the whole cosmos was a hall of mirrors, and everything is reflected in different manners, but the source is the same... And just like how a system in physics returns to a net balance in energy, it might also seem that all the many conditions moving around in the cosmos are all about bringing a certain balance.
The problem here is I have never met a Buddhist priest or meditation teacher who understood meditation, nor samadhi; which would explain why none of them seem to understand anatta. Anatta is a term that refers to the non-dual experience of deep meditation, which Buddhist priests and meditation teachers never seem to experience. All 8 stages of samadhi are relative experiences of non-dualism. When one has fully traversed the 8 stages of samadhi, then one has arrived at the deathless, which is fully non-dual, or devoid of a sense of self.
Also, I have been consistently trying to do lying-down meditation instead of "giving up to unconsciousness" in sleep. I find that part of when I slept in the past, I tend to allow myself to become 'unconscious' and knock myself out, so that I can go into the deep sleep process. When this happens, I am never lucid. When I did lying-down meditation, I did not manage to rise out of my body. However, it gave rise to intense dreams. It gives me the impression as if I was treading water, and my face was rising out of the water (lucidity) and then falling back down as I drown (in unconsciousness).
This is a pretty good metaphor. The deeper you meditate on a consistent basis then more lucid your sleep state will be.
I was wondering, how the sleep cycles reconcile with our trips into the dream spaces. According to observations in studies, we get visions/dream experiences when we hit the REM phase, noted by rapid eye movement. Sleep paralysis holds the body down so that we don't thrash around in dreams. Then after a while, we go back into the non-REM phase. The funny thing is that sleep revolves in between REM and non-REM phases. I was wondering if this also means that we leave and re-enter the dream space multiple times during the span of a night's rest. One thing that was curious was that my eyes were obviously not flickering around when I had those spectral-like kaleidoscopes. Perhaps I returned back to my body at that point. I looked upwards and it seemed as if the place where the 'third eye' is said to be feels like a mental screen.
Pardon me for going on and on again with so many questions... I find myself so restless as my whole mind thinking about these experiences. I have been thinking of this for the whole day.
The problem with making any comparisons between sleep, and/or the experience of deep meditation; and research into meditation and the experience of deep meditation, is no researcher has ever studied anyone who meditates deeply, so we have to just ignore that research until we can conduct that research ourselves on the subjects who have learned to meditate deeply.
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Also, I have been consistently trying to do lying-down meditation instead of "giving up to unconsciousness" in sleep. I find that part of when I slept in the past, I tend to allow myself to become 'unconscious' and knock myself out, so that I can go into the deep sleep process. When this happens, I am never lucid. When I did lying-down meditation, I did not manage to rise out of my body. However, it gave rise to intense dreams. It gives me the impression as if I was treading water, and my face was rising out of the water (lucidity) and then falling back down as I drown (in unconsciousness).
I was wondering, how the sleep cycles reconcile with our trips into the dream spaces. According to observations in studies, we get visions/dream experiences when we hit the REM phase, noted by rapid eye movement. Sleep paralysis holds the body down so that we don't thrash around in dreams. Then after a while, we go back into the non-REM phase. The funny thing is that sleep revolves in between REM and non-REM phases. I was wondering if this also means that we leave and re-enter the dream space multiple times during the span of a night's rest. One thing that was curious was that my eyes were obviously not flickering around when I had those spectral-like kaleidoscopes. Perhaps I returned back to my body at that point. I looked upwards and it seemed as if the place where the 'third eye' is said to be feels like a mental screen.
I have noticed that same thing, there is a part of my conscious mind which is scared to go deep into the sleep process. When you hit the transition when you lose track of your body it can get very scary. You try to move your arm and it is not possible. Sensations feel like they vibrate higher, and you feel those sharp electrical pulses. Sounds are the same way. If I don't stay aware deep in the sleep cycle, and just stay aware in the higher sleep cycles, then my thoughts and dreams can be very random, and my time usually goes to centring myself to increase my clarity of consciousness. Lately, I have spent more time actually contemplating what arises in my sleep, however, I find I do not go as deep with my awareness. I am not sure if this is lack of experience OR is a trade-off one makes. Could share your thoughts on this Jeffery? Is it possible to use your mind deep in your sleep cycle with more experience?
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It depends, Jay, on how you use the term 'mind.' If you use the term 'mind' in the sense of awareness, then as long as one meditates deeply, then awareness will follow one into the depths of sleep, and into altered realities.
If, on the other hand, you you use the term 'mind' in the sense of the cognitive processes, of thinking, reasoning, interpreting the senses, etc., then, no, one does not use the cognitive processes, of thinking, reasoning, sensor interpretation, when one is in deep meditation states, especially not in the immaterial states. So, one has to learn to shed the cognitive processes, while deepening one's conscious-awareness.
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It depends, Jay, on how you use the term 'mind.' If you use the term 'mind' in the sense of awareness, then as long as one meditates deeply, then awareness will follow one into the depths of sleep, and into altered realities.
If, on the other hand, you you use the term 'mind' in the sense of the cognitive processes, of thinking, reasoning, interpreting the senses, etc., then, no, one does not use the cognitive processes, of thinking, reasoning, sensor interpretation, when one is in deep meditation states, especially not in the immaterial states. So, one has to learn to shed the cognitive processes, while deepening one's conscious-awareness.
Thank you for clarifying. I was also confused with the usage of 'mind'.
I know that in some schools of yogacara, they call it the Eight consciousnesses. 1-6 are the six sense spheres, 7 is the self-grasping consciousness (or manas) and 8 is the memory/storehouse consciousness. I have no experience whatsoever with this classification so please don't take my word for it...
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A friend asked me a curious question. He was talking with a shaman who claimed to remember his past life as what he calls a higher-dimensional being (I believe we call them devas?). His practice includes a contemplative lifestyle and frequent OOBEs into the immaterial realms without the need for psychoactive drugs, but I did not hear of any other fruits because I do not know the shaman personally. The shaman also said that he chose his life-theme and rebirthed in order to experience a worldly life, which is to "learn a particular lesson". He claims that trying to 'get out' may be opposing the will of what animates the individual. He also claims that the beings prophets talk to are simply 'enormous energies' looking like deities. Is it because even as a deva/higher dimensional entity, you still have a craving to complete a certain worldly desire, resulting in rebirth? I also remember in the suttas that devas are not seeking liberation as they rarely suffer in these planes.
This is the part where I am confused. Interdependent origination described by the Buddha in DN 15 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html) said that ignorance/craving was the root of suffering (leading to birth, etc). I have no experience whatsoever with the immaterial realms, so I was wondering if you could correct my understanding here.
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I do not want to speculate but simply base my own views on what I experience.
Today I felt myself go into a very depressive mood. I felt like there was a hole, an emptiness within me. I was quite dissatisfied. Perhaps my mindfulness lapsed. What I did was simply go back to the cushion and seek solace in the jhana-nimittas. I find the auditory ringing soothing at times. Also, I find that my vision becomes very bright, such that I can hardly make out the forms of things in the room. Then the blissfulness returned. Perhaps the way to go through such periods is to constantly seek solace in this energy.
Last night again, I tried to keep my awareness up as I moved into sleep. I found, just as jay talked about above, that a part of me seemed to switch off when I went deeper. I would be knocked unconscious and then wake up. I would still remember the dreams I have. Will continue to work at this.
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I know that in some schools of yogacara, they call it the Eight consciousnesses. 1-6 are the six sense spheres, 7 is the self-grasping consciousness (or manas) and 8 is the memory/storehouse consciousness. I have no experience whatsoever with this classification so please don't take my word for it...
Every school of mystics has its own language of gnosis; howver, just because a school of clergy has an elaborate language of gnosis does not mean they are mystics, or know what they are talking about. Theravadan Buddhism is an example of that. So buyer beware.
A friend asked me a curious question. He was talking with a shaman who claimed to remember his past life as what he calls a higher-dimensional being (I believe we call them devas?). His practice includes a contemplative lifestyle and frequent OOBEs into the immaterial realms without the need for psychoactive drugs, but I did not hear of any other fruits because I do not know the shaman personally. The shaman also said that he chose his life-theme and rebirthed in order to experience a worldly life, which is to "learn a particular lesson". He claims that trying to 'get out' may be opposing the will of what animates the individual. He also claims that the beings prophets talk to are simply 'enormous energies' looking like deities. Is it because even as a deva/higher dimensional entity, you still have a craving to complete a certain worldly desire, resulting in rebirth? I also remember in the suttas that devas are not seeking liberation as they rarely suffer in these planes.
This is the part where I am confused. Interdependent origination described by the Buddha in DN 15 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html) said that ignorance/craving was the root of suffering (leading to birth, etc). I have no experience whatsoever with the immaterial realms, so I was wondering if you could correct my understanding here.
It sounds like this shaman might have some genuine attainment; however, he is correct, if one has not become fully liberated, then one will eventually come back to complete the awakening process. Some mystics are fully liberated, but keep coming back to help others get fully liberated.
Today I felt myself go into a very depressive mood. I felt like there was a hole, an emptiness within me. I was quite dissatisfied. Perhaps my mindfulness lapsed. What I did was simply go back to the cushion and seek solace in the jhana-nimittas. I find the auditory ringing soothing at times. Also, I find that my vision becomes very bright, such that I can hardly make out the forms of things in the room. Then the blissfulness returned. Perhaps the way to go through such periods is to constantly seek solace in this energy.
Yes, this is how a fruitful contemplative life works.
Last night again, I tried to keep my awareness up as I moved into sleep. I found, just as jay talked about above, that a part of me seemed to switch off when I went deeper. I would be knocked unconscious and then wake up. I would still remember the dreams I have. Will continue to work at this.
Yes, this is how it works as we progress to deeper states. Eventually we our awareness will be unbroken.
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My current routine is...
- Definitely a meditation session of about 1+ hours, maybe to 2.
- Qigong (chunyi lin - I use his instructions since he has fruits [all the siddhis])
- Constant mindfulness of my body/sensations/mental states/thoughts
I do not know if this is a side-effect, but I realized that after the Qigong exercises, my eyesight seemed to become much sharper. I wear glasses, but for a short while I was able to look with very sharp vision without them. This has happened quite a few times. A few things I realized while doing the Qigong was that the slow-mode kundalini was moving faster or more noticeably. Somehow the exercises helped to make the bliss more intense and the orgasms came back. I no longer feel the depressive mood I had 2 days ago.
Also... do the jhana-nimittas come from the chakras? I seem to have this feeling that I'm hearing the shimmering sound about an inch behind the center of my eyebrows. It also sometimes separates into a slightly lower "hum" and rarely a whooping sound.
Another thing I realized was that I felt very refreshed and seemed to move into this flow with life. Nothing seemed to perturb me, I was passing through, as if everything and everyone around me were seaweed, and I was a nonchalant little fish being happy by myself (lol). This state also seemed very useful for my college work, since I was going through many assignments with tight deadlines and I did not feel the slightest stress. Everytime I felt my mental acuity drop and torpor settle in, I would do a bit of standing meditation and the bliss starts to move again, making me feel very wakeful. I'm very grateful of having known how to tap into such a resource.
Also, I'm still working on building lucidity in my dreams. The lucidity comes on and off. At times I appear half-lucid, but as compared to 1-2 years ago, I am remembering a lot more of my dreams now. I also realized that I was somehow subconsciously rejecting myself from inner or outer vision. This might explain why my first OOBE was "blind". I tried to recall how I saw the kaleidoscopic visions and realized that it was on this "mental screen" within my mind. It seems that if I look there mentally, then I can see light forms. I will need to investigate more.
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My current routine is...
- Definitely a meditation session of about 1+ hours, maybe to 2.
- Qigong (chunyi lin - I use his instructions since he has fruits [all the siddhis])
- Constant mindfulness of my body/sensations/mental states/thoughts
I do not know if this is a side-effect, but I realized that after the Qigong exercises, my eyesight seemed to become much sharper. I wear glasses, but for a short while I was able to look with very sharp vision without them. This has happened quite a few times. A few things I realized while doing the Qigong was that the slow-mode kundalini was moving faster or more noticeably. Somehow the exercises helped to make the bliss more intense and the orgasms came back. I no longer feel the depressive mood I had 2 days ago.
I find the various forms of slow movement Chinese martial arts do for me similar energy activation to what the standing and walking Buddhist meditation methods do. However, I also find the need to memorize and execute a particular martial arts form from memory impedes my access to the charisms.
Also, I once had a friend who was an ophthalmologist, and he used meditation, and eye exercises to improve the vision of his patience. He once said to me that he found an individual's vision can improve significantly just from learning to relax deeply. He did not know this, but deep relaxation is a key aspect of deep meditation, so it is reasonable to consider that your eyesight improves from relaxing deeply during deep meditation; however, that improvement may not be lasting until you can sustain that depth of relaxation in every moment.
Also... do the jhana-nimittas come from the chakras? I seem to have this feeling that I'm hearing the shimmering sound about an inch behind the center of my eyebrows. It also sometimes separates into a slightly lower "hum" and rarely a whooping sound.
I find the charkas are not the source of the charismatic phenomena that I experience, but part of the multi-sensory experience of the charisms.
Another thing I realized was that I felt very refreshed and seemed to move into this flow with life. Nothing seemed to perturb me, I was passing through, as if everything and everyone around me were seaweed, and I was a nonchalant little fish being happy by myself (lol). This state also seemed very useful for my college work, since I was going through many assignments with tight deadlines and I did not feel the slightest stress. Everytime I felt my mental acuity drop and torpor settle in, I would do a bit of standing meditation and the bliss starts to move again, making me feel very wakeful. I'm very grateful of having known how to tap into such a resource.
Yes, I found this too when I was a student at the university; however, I also found greater depth in meditation when I left the stressful world and went into retreat in the wilderness.
Also, I'm still working on building lucidity in my dreams. The lucidity comes on and off. At times I appear half-lucid, but as compared to 1-2 years ago, I am remembering a lot more of my dreams now. I also realized that I was somehow subconsciously rejecting myself from inner or outer vision. This might explain why my first OOBE was "blind". I tried to recall how I saw the kaleidoscopic visions and realized that it was on this "mental screen" within my mind. It seems that if I look there mentally, then I can see light forms. I will need to investigate more.
Our lucidity in the sleep state improves as we develop the deep meditation experience.
Yes, I agree on your findings of learning to see while in an OOBE.
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I find the various forms of slow movement Chinese martial arts do for me similar energy activation to what the standing and walking Buddhist meditation methods do. However, I also find the need to memorize and execute a particular martial arts form from memory impedes my access to the charisms.
Also, I once had a friend who was an ophthalmologist, and he used meditation, and eye exercises to improve the vision of his patience. He once said to me that he found an individual's vision can improve significantly just from learning to relax deeply. He did not know this, but deep relaxation is a key aspect of deep meditation, so it is reasonable to consider that your eyesight improves from relaxing deeply during deep meditation; however, that improvement may not be lasting until you can sustain that depth of relaxation in every moment.
True! Perhaps relaxation causes the various muscles pulling on the eye to relax and hence make it less oblique (for myopia) and it helps the eye refocus. One problem is that when I get out of deep meditation, objects often becomes defocused because of a bright tint I have illuminating my field of vision...
I find the charkas are not the source of the charismatic phenomena that I experience, but part of the multi-sensory experience of the charisms.
Oh, I think I might have misinterpreted that. Would it be that the chakras are the swirling sensations in the tactile charism?
Yes, I found this too when I was a student at the university; however, I also found greater depth in meditation when I left the stressful world and went into retreat in the wilderness.
I will definitely set aside a time for me to meditate in nature, away from the stress and drama of society.
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Today, I tried healing on a friend who had a shoulder ache. I went into jhana and I felt the tactile charisms as tingling. I then directed lovingness towards the area that was painful, imagining that there was a blockage that broke up and then was pulled out of the body. I then replenished the area with more lovingness. My friend then commented that her pain seemed to subside nearly completely. So I am completely convinced in the healing power innate within us. I hope I can develop this skill to a higher extent so that I can be an effective doctor.
I remember somewhere that it was mentioned that it was possible to do long-distance healing... I am curious to how that works? Would I need to be able to OOB to deliver a long-distance healing?
My routine has extended so far:
1. 1-2 hours of moving meditation
2. 1-2 hours of sitting meditation
3. Lying down meditation while going to sleep (~30 minutes)
I always lose my consciousness when I fall to sleep, however. I suddenly realized that it was very similar to "torpor" as a factor of meditation hindrance. Since torpor involves losing awareness, energy and dullness, it seemed like everytime we go to sleep in the "normal way", it is in fact letting torpor grow so much that it knocks our awareness away.
Then while I am in a dream, I momentarily gain some awareness while in the dream space, and it ebbs and flows. Is that what is happening? That we shift in and out of awareness, just like in normal meditation? If that is the case, it seems to me that there is really no difference in waking times and sleeping times - It should be possible to meditate continuously.
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Today, I tried healing on a friend who had a shoulder ache. I went into jhana and I felt the tactile charisms as tingling. I then directed lovingness towards the area that was painful, imagining that there was a blockage that broke up and then was pulled out of the body. I then replenished the area with more lovingness. My friend then commented that her pain seemed to subside nearly completely. So I am completely convinced in the healing power innate within us. I hope I can develop this skill to a higher extent so that I can be an effective doctor.
This is roughly my method of healing. I would enter jhana as deep as I could go, then I used my hands as a medium for conducting the charisms that I felt in my body into the body of my patient. I found it works better if the patient enters jhana as well. This does not necessarily require training for the patient, just the ability to relax deeply during the session. This requires no talking during the session.
A few days ago a homeless woman here, who is quite new-age offered to give me a Reiki treatment. She talked constantly through the session, so there was little depth in her treatment.
I spoke to her on other occasions about meditation practice, and the experience of depth in meditation. From our conversation it was clear that she had never experienced depth in meditation, so there would be no depth in her energy work.
I remember somewhere that it was mentioned that it was possible to do long-distance healing... I am curious to how that works? Would I need to be able to OOB to deliver a long-distance healing?
Not necessarily. You can do healing via remote viewing. What does bring depth to remote healing is the ability to acquire, and maintain, depth (jhana) during the session.
My routine has extended so far:
1. 1-2 hours of moving meditation
2. 1-2 hours of sitting meditation
3. Lying down meditation while going to sleep (~30 minutes)
Sounds like a lifestyle that will bear much fruit.
I always lose my consciousness when I fall to sleep, however. I suddenly realized that it was very similar to "torpor" as a factor of meditation hindrance. Since torpor involves losing awareness, energy and dullness, it seemed like everytime we go to sleep in the "normal way", it is in fact letting torpor grow so much that it knocks our awareness away.
Then while I am in a dream, I momentarily gain some awareness while in the dream space, and it ebbs and flows. Is that what is happening? That we shift in and out of awareness, just like in normal meditation? If that is the case, it seems to me that there is really no difference in waking times and sleeping times - It should be possible to meditate continuously.
Yes, in the beginning we oscillate in awareness. As we progress our awareness become stable, then we go deeper. Yes, I agree, losing awareness, energy and dullness, is torpor.
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Today, I tried healing on a friend who had a shoulder ache. I went into jhana and I felt the tactile charisms as tingling. I then directed lovingness towards the area that was painful, imagining that there was a blockage that broke up and then was pulled out of the body. I then replenished the area with more lovingness. My friend then commented that her pain seemed to subside nearly completely. So I am completely convinced in the healing power innate within us. I hope I can develop this skill to a higher extent so that I can be an effective doctor.
I never knew you were into energy healing! How cool. How long have you been doing this? What brought your interest into this?
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This is roughly my method of healing. I would enter jhana as deep as I could go, then I used my hands as a medium for conducting the charisms that I felt in my body into the body of my patient. I found it works better if the patient enters jhana as well. This does not necessarily require training for the patient, just the ability to relax deeply during the session. This requires no talking during the session.
A few days ago a homeless woman here, who is quite new-age offered to give me a Reiki treatment. She talked constantly through the session, so there was little depth in her treatment.
I spoke to her on other occasions about meditation practice, and the experience of depth in meditation. From our conversation it was clear that she had never experienced depth in meditation, so there would be no depth in her energy work.
Yes, i found that talking also seemed to diminish the effects. Also, when I did it on a female, she was more sensitive to feeling it rather than a male. I do not know why, but only the female that I've tried it on could actually feel the places where my hand was hovering over (at least a few inches away since I do not want the body temperature to affect it). The males seemed quite 'body-numb'.
Not necessarily. You can do healing via remote viewing. What does bring depth to remote healing is the ability to acquire, and maintain, depth (jhana) during the session.
That makes sense, I will try it.
Yes, in the beginning we oscillate in awareness. As we progress our awareness become stable, then we go deeper. Yes, I agree, losing awareness, energy and dullness, is torpor.
That makes a lot of sense. It seems that torpor is also linked to the fatigue of the body. Or perhaps the willingness of the mind to go along with that loss of awareness.
I never knew you were into energy healing! How cool. How long have you been doing this? What brought your interest into this?
I first started when I got into jhana, going into a jhanic state and doing a massage on my father who was sore and tired after a day's walking. I found that when I tried to do some healing, he remarked that his blood started flowing and his pain seemed to diminish more quickly. That was when I first realized that it might be possible.
Well, I was very interested in healing other people, since my own career is becoming a physician. I never saw the various "fields" of medicine as separate from each other. I always felt that separating herbal and modern treatment was unneeded, since they were all taken into the body, so the principles that govern them are always the same. So I tried to learn other fields like healing, traditional eastern medicine, Aryuveda and alternative medicine. I guess you could say that I got interested in it because I felt drawn towards it and that it would be relevant in making me a better physician.
I however, see how inconsiderate humans can be, especially in the pharmaceutical industry. For example, this article (http://ringoffireradio.com/2015/09/pharmaceutical-ceo-says-he-is-glad-he-raised-price-on-13-aids-medicine-to-750-will-do-it-again/) shows how truly wicked people can become because of money-mindedness. News like this makes me lose faith in people regaining their sense of humanity.
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I first started when I got into jhana, going into a jhanic state and doing a massage on my father who was sore and tired after a day's walking. I found that when I tried to do some healing, he remarked that his blood started flowing and his pain seemed to diminish more quickly. That was when I first realized that it might be possible.
Well, I was very interested in healing other people, since my own career is becoming a physician. I never saw the various "fields" of medicine as separate from each other. I always felt that separating herbal and modern treatment was unneeded, since they were all taken into the body, so the principles that govern them are always the same. So I tried to learn other fields like healing, traditional eastern medicine, Aryuveda and alternative medicine. I guess you could say that I got interested in it because I felt drawn towards it and that it would be relevant in making me a better physician.
I found it natural to combine deep meditation with healing work. Funny, yesterday the Reike practitioner who worked on me asked me for a treatment, so I gave it to her. She told me today that she had significant improvement, and asked for another treatment tomorrow. Another person overheard the Reike practitioner say that she had had significant improvement, so this second person requested a treatment, so I worked on her today.
I however, see how inconsiderate humans can be, especially in the pharmaceutical industry. For example, this article (http://ringoffireradio.com/2015/09/pharmaceutical-ceo-says-he-is-glad-he-raised-price-on-13-aids-medicine-to-750-will-do-it-again/) shows how truly wicked people can become because of money-mindedness. News like this makes me lose faith in people regaining their sense of humanity.
This is why greed is a sin.
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I had a stomachache after meditation yesterday, my stomach was cold and I felt quite uncomfortable. It felt as if something was off-balanced within. So I tried to make my body below the navel hot and body above the navel cooler, and it helped to alleviate the pain quite a bit.
I got a really intense dream last night. I met a group of people who I did not know, except for this female. So because I wanted to test a theory (I explain below), I reached out and hugged her. When that happened, it felt as if my heart erupted with a massive energy that gave me a non-sexual orgasm upwards. The energy went upwards. It felt as if the energy itself was love, because it felt like it was so generous and giving, it was a little like joy in first jhana, just multiplied many times over.
While it seemed like an orgasm, I noticed that if one has an orgasm from the sexual organs, the feeling seems to travel from the bottom of the perineum upwards. But in this case, it came directly from the heart and surged upwards, and I went into a state of non-duality within the dream where I couldn't perceive anything. Even after waking up, I can feel the heart being so wide open, so expansive, as if there was this radiating love streaming out. I don't know how to describe it, it feels like something cool down my throat.
My theory was that two people hug physically because they want to bring their hearts as close as possible to each other. Perhaps it is in that way where two people are able to share their love in a physical way. I just never thought that it would be that volatile and explosive in the way I tried. Perhaps this is why a simple physical action such as a hug can induce oxytocin hormonal action and why kids who receive a lot of hugging tend to grow up with fewer health problems in adulthood.
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I've continued trying to heal a friend. He had a stiff neck and could not turn to his right. I then went into jhana (trying not to talk and also asking my friend to not talk as well), and tried to radiate love into the area. After about 15 to 20 minutes, I managed to get him to turn more than 60 degrees. Although there was still a movement limitation, there strangely was no pain left.
I am still trying to do remote-viewing healing. However, I am not able to at will, remote-view, since they are rather spontaneous in my experience. Or do you mean that I can just imagine the person in my mind's eye and perform the healing? If so, I tend to do that a lot when I do a bit of metta meditation to get myself into a loving state before meditation (I imagine beings throughout the planet temporarily ceasing action & thought and going into a wholesome, meditative state for a moment).
My current routine continues, I find that the 11-1pm or 11-1am period seems to be one of the most productive for me, since it is normally the time where my stomach does not have much food. Perhaps a slight hunger is ideal. I do know from past meditations that having too much of a hunger promotes a bad mental state however.
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I had a stomachache after meditation yesterday, my stomach was cold and I felt quite uncomfortable. It felt as if something was off-balanced within. So I tried to make my body below the navel hot and body above the navel cooler, and it helped to alleviate the pain quite a bit.
I got a really intense dream last night. I met a group of people who I did not know, except for this female. So because I wanted to test a theory (I explain below), I reached out and hugged her. When that happened, it felt as if my heart erupted with a massive energy that gave me a non-sexual orgasm upwards. The energy went upwards. It felt as if the energy itself was love, because it felt like it was so generous and giving, it was a little like joy in first jhana, just multiplied many times over.
While it seemed like an orgasm, I noticed that if one has an orgasm from the sexual organs, the feeling seems to travel from the bottom of the perineum upwards. But in this case, it came directly from the heart and surged upwards, and I went into a state of non-duality within the dream where I couldn't perceive anything. Even after waking up, I can feel the heart being so wide open, so expansive, as if there was this radiating love streaming out. I don't know how to describe it, it feels like something cool down my throat.
My theory was that two people hug physically because they want to bring their hearts as close as possible to each other. Perhaps it is in that way where two people are able to share their love in a physical way. I just never thought that it would be that volatile and explosive in the way I tried. Perhaps this is why a simple physical action such as a hug can induce oxytocin hormonal action and why kids who receive a lot of hugging tend to grow up with fewer health problems in adulthood.
Some of the OOBE books describe this phenomena. I have experienced it many times. One can "embrace" and transmit love on many of the levels of the immaterial dimensions. I have done this on the individual level as well as on the galactic level. Of course on the galactic level it is far more powerful, and blissful, an experience than on the individual level.
I've continued trying to heal a friend. He had a stiff neck and could not turn to his right. I then went into jhana (trying not to talk and also asking my friend to not talk as well), and tried to radiate love into the area. After about 15 to 20 minutes, I managed to get him to turn more than 60 degrees. Although there was still a movement limitation, there strangely was no pain left.
I am still trying to do remote-viewing healing. However, I am not able to at will, remote-view, since they are rather spontaneous in my experience. Or do you mean that I can just imagine the person in my mind's eye and perform the healing? If so, I tend to do that a lot when I do a bit of metta meditation to get myself into a loving state before meditation (I imagine beings throughout the planet temporarily ceasing action & thought and going into a wholesome, meditative state for a moment).
My current routine continues, I find that the 11-1pm or 11-1am period seems to be one of the most productive for me, since it is normally the time where my stomach does not have much food. Perhaps a slight hunger is ideal. I do know from past meditations that having too much of a hunger promotes a bad mental state however.
When one has arrived at the depth of the 3rd to the 4th level of depth in meditation one can simply project one's vision to another space/time location, and observe, or even heal remotely. it sounds like you can do this, if you so choose.
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When one has arrived at the depth of the 3rd to the 4th level of depth in meditation one can simply project one's vision to another space/time location, and observe, or even heal remotely. it sounds like you can do this, if you so choose.
You mean do this at will? I never seem able to do this at will, more of I let go of control and it is as if another part of me does the work. If I observe that part, then I suppose I get a part of control through simple awareness and feeling, but it flows different than the mind. Maybe in the future as my practice deepens, and as I do more retreats, this will open up more.
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I never seem able to do this at will, more of I let go of control and it is as if another part of me does the work. If I observe that part, then I suppose I get a part of control through simple awareness and feeling, but it flows different than the mind. Maybe in the future as my practice deepens, and as I do more retreats, this will open up more.
This is correct.
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I am truly sickened by the inflation of human ego, especially in the field of science. It seems that science has shifted towards a quest for utilization instead of knowledge, fuelled by monetary interests. I almost vomited seeing the dead rat fetuses in a lab class, still perfectly preserved in their rat wombs. Apparently it was considered ethical to remove these fetuses before they were 'big' enough. To me, they had the 5 sense organs intact and had every sign of being a live being. Another one that really got me irked was how they killed the lab rats by twisting their necks (cervical dislocation). I swear to myself that if I am ever forced to kill a being for the sake of science, I will rather quit the field and find a more humane livelihood.
What gives one the right to end a life for another? Even now, while I used to just clap mosquitoes or step on ants, I no longer do them because I recognize the life inside all of them. I feel life buzzing around in nature. It feels like maybe, humans have been stifled in cement walls for too long.
I am seeing signs of greed everywhere. But perhaps this greed is a misdirected effort. From what I understand, greed is a desire, a drive, to fulfil oneself. But since they indulge in transient wants and are driven about by their own physiology, habits and thought patterns, they can never be satisfied. Instead, if one shifts that effort towards enlightenment, this end of suffering will not be impermanent.
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Yesterday, I realized that my emotional state moved along with other people. Seeing that anxiety rose in me, I told myself - I see it, therefore it has no power over me. In that way, I allowed the 'anxious energy' to dissipate. I then shifted my heart towards that of joy and listened for the auditory charism.
It seems that no matter how much one stays in jhana, if mindfulness is not kept 24 hours, there is always the possibility for "Mara" to come in from the 6 sense doors. Therefore, I must remind myself that these things may be mine, but are not me.
It sometimes feels like even every single task around me is like a grain of sand floating past. Or perhaps waves that rise and fall away. Ebbs and flows. Birth and death. Nothing is ever constant. It also makes me wonder why we live a physical life at all, since everything is smoke and mirrors.
Without pleasure there is no pain, and without pain there is no pleasure. If I recall in a sutta, the Buddha said that one must see pleasure as stressful, and pain as an arrow. (Even neutral feelings, I think?)
The so-called karma affect how we act, speak and think - But if these things are also produced from transient conditions, then even karma itself is baseless. Only the "I am" seems to be there. But for the sole purpose of interacting with the world, we need to abide by its laws. Am I misunderstanding something though?
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I am truly sickened by the inflation of human ego, especially in the field of science. It seems that science has shifted towards a quest for utilization instead of knowledge, fuelled by monetary interests. I almost vomited seeing the dead rat fetuses in a lab class, still perfectly preserved in their rat wombs. Apparently it was considered ethical to remove these fetuses before they were 'big' enough. To me, they had the 5 sense organs intact and had every sign of being a live being. Another one that really got me irked was how they killed the lab rats by twisting their necks (cervical dislocation). I swear to myself that if I am ever forced to kill a being for the sake of science, I will rather quit the field and find a more humane livelihood.
What gives one the right to end a life for another? Even now, while I used to just clap mosquitoes or step on ants, I no longer do them because I recognize the life inside all of them. I feel life buzzing around in nature.
While I readily swat mosquitoes, and flies, not just because they are an annoyance, but they are also a disease vector; nonetheless, I agree with you regarding to avoiding harm to other creatures, even as "lowly" as the ant. My experience of biology class was similar to yours, and so was my reaction, so after my first biology class I chose another career path.
It feels like maybe, humans have been stifled in cement walls for too long.
I am seeing signs of greed everywhere. But perhaps this greed is a misdirected effort. From what I understand, greed is a desire, a drive, to fulfil oneself. But since they indulge in transient wants and are driven about by their own physiology, habits and thought patterns, they can never be satisfied. Instead, if one shifts that effort towards enlightenment, this end of suffering will not be impermanent.
Interesting rant that you are on. I find myself often in the same place. I have spent some time reflecting upon why humans think it is right to rape and pillage (literally or figuratively) their way through life. It seems to me that it mostly goes to the fact that humans are aggressive predators, and the prime directive for any species is to secure a food resource, then defend it, then go out and find a mate, and defend it.
As we negotiate the levels of depth in meditation we will overcome this species oriented biological imperative.
Yesterday, I realized that my emotional state moved along with other people. Seeing that anxiety rose in me, I told myself - I see it, therefore it has no power over me. In that way, I allowed the 'anxious energy' to dissipate. I then shifted my heart towards that of joy and listened for the auditory charism.
This is how I engage in a mindful contemplative life, and it has born fruit for me, so it should bear fruit for others.
It seems that no matter how much one stays in jhana, if mindfulness is not kept 24 hours, there is always the possibility for "Mara" to come in from the 6 sense doors. Therefore, I must remind myself that these things may be mine, but are not me.
I too have found this to be true.
It sometimes feels like even every single task around me is like a grain of sand floating past. Or perhaps waves that rise and fall away. Ebbs and flows. Birth and death. Nothing is ever constant. It also makes me wonder why we live a physical life at all, since everything is smoke and mirrors.
Without pleasure there is no pain, and without pain there is no pleasure. If I recall in a sutta, the Buddha said that one must see pleasure as stressful, and pain as an arrow. (Even neutral feelings, I think?)
The so-called karma affect how we act, speak and think - But if these things are also produced from transient conditions, then even karma itself is baseless. Only the "I am" seems to be there. But for the sole purpose of interacting with the world, we need to abide by its laws. Am I misunderstanding something though?
Yes, I agree, the more I find myself in the immaterial domains, then the more life seems like nothing but "smoke and mirrors" as you put it. It is a delusion. The Indic religions use the term "Mara" for this delusion. However, the mendicant walks away from the "laws" of man and nature.
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Interesting rant that you are on. I find myself often in the same place. I have spent some time reflecting upon why humans think it is right to rape and pillage (literally or figuratively) their way through life. It seems to me that it mostly goes to the fact that humans are aggressive predators, and the prime directive for any species is to secure a food resource, then defend it, then go out and find a mate, and defend it.
As we negotiate the levels of depth in meditation we will overcome this species oriented biological imperative.
That's very interesting. I was having classes on biological evolutionary ecology where they talked about how nearly all instincts have an evolutionary basis to increase "fitness" so that the species can continue its genetic lineage. And it seems really strange how it is all based off the template of DNA. Perhaps the human animal is coded in that way, as if one were a robot. And if we aren't more awake, we tend to move along with this programming.
In the mythology of Hercules, they say he is half-divine and half-animal (half-mortal/half-immortal), perhaps they were also referring to this. Just a small suspicion, but I suspect that the twelve labours of Hercules represent some form of spiritual progress towards fruit. Hercules ends with becoming immortal.
Yes, I agree, the more I find myself in the immaterial domains, then the more life seems like nothing but "smoke and mirrors" as you put it. It is a delusion. The Indic religions use the term "Mara" for this delusion. However, the mendicant walks away from the "laws" of man and nature.
It becomes more bewildering as to why a physical life even comes about... I feel that lives are so short. In a flash, the years past and whatever we do in between just vanish and the habits, cravings, graspings all continue on to the next life if one did not attain any fruit. I'm starting to understand why one would move away from participation in this (mad) world and put all focus in not having a rebirth. Who knows whether one will see the dharma again in the next life?
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Yesterday night, I had a few instances of OOBE. I meditated to perhaps third/fourth jhana, where I felt expansiveness and loss of perception of the body. However, the OOBE only happened when I went to bed right after the session.
This time, I immediately noticed the screeching ringing in both ears when I suddenly projected outwards. I could even see. It was the same case where I simply used my will and poof, I'm out. I did not backflip this time.
I projected once, then I found that I tended to go back into my body. So I projected again, and then I soon found myself in my body again. I kept doing this for a while. However, I lost the battle to torpor and fell unconscious to sleep. I should have got up after those experiences to write down a record of what happened, because now my memories are fogged up after the sleep. It seems as if the body tries to cover up memories of what happened... probably why we forget things after waking up.
How did I project? I'll try to piece in some memory fragments here, hopefully I can piece it together and remember how I did it again. It was weird, because firstly I no longer had sensations of my physical body (I think it is key because it describes fourth jhana). Then it was simply a matter of willing myself out. Then I felt my limbs (or astral body limbs) float upwards... It also seemed as if I could see these hands float without my eyes open. I felt my whole body float up, as if I was tied to a helium balloon by the hands.
I believe that I still need a lot of training in the using of this other body, however. I tried to project myself towards people that I knew. I also tried whisking over to Jhanananda to see if it would work (lol). Nothing seemed to happen though. I was just focusing on the photo, maybe I had to will myself to teleport/fly? However, what I could do, mostly, was change myself from a horizontal to a more vertical position. I felt so strange navigating in this body... almost as if I was swimming with my mind (is that a right way to describe?)
How do you retain length of being in the OOBE? I seem to have only short periods of being out of the body, before I snap back into my body and try again.
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Just another record of my practice...
- I found moving meditation an extremely effective way to keep torpor down while going into jhana quite quickly. I will be permanently keeping it in my daily routine. Letting go into the tranquil mind and keeping down cognitive activity was one way I found to let me "ride" the bliss and energy movements on.
- I also realized that perhaps the reason why people were cognitive - was to break existing patterns and then the aim after all that cognitive ability is still to ride on with the divine.
- I included morning sessions of about 1.5 hours every morning and realized that it gave me an impeccable calm, as well as energy moving about my body. I feel very refreshed and ecstatic and this permeates to the rest of my day. I find that it rids me of the need for caffeine.
- I am finally able to hear 'rushing water' as an auditory charism, while it previously appeared as a high-pitched ringing sound for me.
- I found group meditations to significantly increase the depth of absorption rather quickly. This seemed to happen over Skype as well, to a smaller degree. It was amazing, how the energy of group meditations was so powerful - I felt the bliss literally pouring and spreading throughout my body and I went into non-duality within estimatedly, 15-20 minutes...
- I started fasting to a small degree and I find that when meditating on an empty stomach (though not too hungry), it seemed to allow the bliss to stay and become more prominent.
- Another problem was that if I took in 'junk food' like Tim Tams, I would immediately notice a discomfort in my body, appearing in several places after the gut.
- I am better able to keep mindfulness on the sensations. I now clearly see 'joy' in the first jhana as something that 'spikes' and fades away into a different quality.
- I am still working on maintaining lucidity in my sleep. It seems to be a rather difficult task for me. I will work on my dream recall first, before being able to maintain lucidity in my dream cycle. I do get occasional dreams where I get a high degree of lucidity, but I cannot seem to maintain it. Perhaps this is linked to mindfulness, so I must work harder.
- I also did some Qigong, as per Sam's advice, and I feel very refreshed and healthy, it's as if I have an internal reserve of energy.
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Thanks, bodhimind, for posting this.
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It sounds like bodhimind is finding a lifestyle that has fruitful results. I hope he keeps it up.
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I suddenly realized what I was stuck at...
It was weird because I had a flashback to when I was a child, sitting in the car. I realized I could switch from subconscious to conscious control of my breath, but not my heartbeat. When doing this, I was afraid that if I stopped using my mind to start my breaths, then I would not breathe and die. Then I decided to just leave it - at that point I remembered an intense question, "Who am I?" And at this point I somehow thought that I had forgotten something. While closing my eyes I saw a bright orb/light. (I suddenly realized that this might be the transitory orb that Jhanananda was talking about all along.)
So this means that at that time, I somehow already practised mindfulness of my breath, as well as with other aspects of my body, but mainly the breath. And having that want to remember what I was drove me into that orb-like vision.
I now understand why as a child I suddenly quit all "addictions" - dropping activities like computer use, playing games, TV shows, foods - I also understand why I was severely depressed and nearly nihilistic at that point of time. I also realize that the young me had a really deep insight but somehow this knowledge was lost as I navigated my juvenile period. Now having this sharp recall, I suddenly understand the anapanasati sutta and mahasatipatthana sutta...
Yesterday, I lay down in meditation and had a few insights that helped:
- The mind is often messy and turbulent/multi-pointed if mindfulness is not kept, so the first thing is normally to stabilize the mental-state by focusing on something specific, such as the breath. With fewer things fighting for attention, the mind starts to calm down and rest.
- I find that it does not mean discerning the "length" of the breath, but simply placing the attention on the breath as long as it is there. So what worked for me was simply attending to the breath when it is there, until either inhalation or exhalation ends. I did not pay particular attention to the cognitive details of how long or short it was.
- Having established the stabilization of attention, mindfulness of body is also established. I did a body scan and started from my toes up. Imagining melting away my body into peaceful relaxedness helped a lot. I used exhalation to remove a lot of tension in the body while correcting my posture. This is probably what "being sensitive and calming bodily agitation" meant.
- By perceiving the body as a third-person observer, I knew of the impermanence of the body and as a shell.
- Then from this relaxation came a very faint joyous, peaceful and luxuriant sensation. This must be what "being sensitive to bliss and joy" meant in the second mindfulness reference. It started off as something cooling, then when "spreading" or "saturating" it felt like "bath powder being kneaded with water, again and again"
- I simply was mindful of the spreading, of the cooling, of the arising of the relaxing quality that was perceived as pleasant. Joy rose. I also experienced fading of the discomfort that was perceived as unpleasant. However, I could not really perceive anything that was "neutral".
- At this point it felt like my body was whirling, sinking, moving - it was more of an internal sensation, rather than a physical sensation. It felt similar to falling into a deep sleep.
- Then the stream of images appeared. Faint faces - mostly hypnagogic images coming from a background of blackness. I localized this to be not at the eyelids nor upwards, but as if it came from something behind the eyes (projecting forwards on a mental screen). I remembered how it was like to dream and this alllowed me to see the images more clearly.
- At this point the stupor increased.
- Perhaps this was the third cornerstone. I then worked on the mind, being sensitive to mental agitations, which were the random thoughts and images that came out. I then tried to calm them down, as if it was a top losing its speed.
- I felt that when I focused on the mind stream, I lost awareness of my entire body, as if I "zoomed into" the mental aspect.
- I also found that if I tried to "enlarge" that small picture of the mind stream such that it feels up the entire mental screen, it makes the turbulence even stronger than before.
- There was a very bright light that flashed at some point.
- However, I am still unable to lucidly detach from the body. I will continue to work on it.
There is a part in the anapana sutta that I still cannot relate to my experience, so I was hoping someone could clarify it:
[8] One trains oneself to breathe in calming mental agitation, and to breathe out calming mental agitation.
"[9] One trains oneself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind.
[10] One trains oneself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind.
[11] One trains oneself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind.
[12] One trains oneself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind.
"[13] One trains oneself to breathe in (mindful of) inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy.
[14] One trains oneself to breathe in mindful of dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out mindful of dispassion.
[15] One trains oneself to breathe in mindful of cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation (emptiness).
[16] One trains oneself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment.
I seem to do well until the mental agitation part. From that part onward it gets a little unrelatable. Or perhaps I already did "dispassion/fading" unknowingly? It did feel as if I was moving into emptiness. Does "relinquishment" relate to the OBE?
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I suddenly realized what I was stuck at...
It was weird because I had a flashback to when I was a child, sitting in the car. I realized I could switch from subconscious to conscious control of my breath, but not my heartbeat. When doing this, I was afraid that if I stopped using my mind to start my breaths, then I would not breathe and die. Then I decided to just leave it - at that point I remembered an intense question, "Who am I?" And at this point I somehow thought that I had forgotten something. While closing my eyes I saw a bright orb/light. (I suddenly realized that this might be the transitory orb that Jhanananda was talking about all along.)
My experience with this was much like a collision. My entire environment changed, but only for an instant, to that of sheer luminosity and brilliance. It happened much in the way you described, but a little different. My question was not "Who am I?" but "Where am I from?". Also, I was an adult.
As to the embolden, I've read accounts, and have had similar experiences with this. One might be surprised to know that in the deepest in-body meditation experience, this threshold becomes apparent. I believe ones body literally stops breathing, thus allowing you to become separated from it. You obviously do not die, but become released from the body. The body just puts itself on auto-pilot while you're gone.
I now understand why as a child I suddenly quit all "addictions" - dropping activities like computer use, playing games, TV shows, foods - I also understand why I was severely depressed and nearly nihilistic at that point of time. I also realize that the young me had a really deep insight but somehow this knowledge was lost as I navigated my juvenile period. Now having this sharp recall, I suddenly understand the anapanasati sutta and mahasatipatthana sutta...
I also became quite nihilistic after this experience, without the rejection of religion. I also dropped everything. A year or so after the experience, with the assistance of other unsettling things, I dropped the idea of religion, only to regain it after realizing that I could not remove myself from the charisms. This also served to dissolve any remaining doubts that still lingered about validity. Thankfully, the charisms did not leave me, as this world would be much different without them.
- Then the stream of images appeared. Faint faces - mostly hypnagogic images coming from a background of blackness. I localized this to be not at the eyelids nor upwards, but as if it came from something behind the eyes (projecting forwards on a mental screen). I remembered how it was like to dream and this alllowed me to see the images more clearly.
- At this point the stupor increased.
- Perhaps this was the third cornerstone. I then worked on the mind, being sensitive to mental agitations, which were the random thoughts and images that came out. I then tried to calm them down, as if it was a top losing its speed.
- I felt that when I focused on the mind stream, I lost awareness of my entire body, as if I "zoomed into" the mental aspect.
- I also found that if I tried to "enlarge" that small picture of the mind stream such that it feels up the entire mental screen, it makes the turbulence even stronger than before.
- There was a very bright light that flashed at some point.
- However, I am still unable to lucidly detach from the body. I will continue to work on it.
You're describing a "teetering" of the second and third jhanas. I experience this at times as well. With me, I become anxious or afraid. I've found while resting in the visual field that you can actually move energy to the third-eye area and gain some clarity there-in. However, this will not help you in progressing in the session. It is better to only "observe" what is there, and not grasp at it. Move your awareness to tactile sensation elsewhere until it has fully engulfed the body. Eventually, as you follow the tactile sensation, and you do not grasp at it, you'll gain a complete awareness of your body, including the visual field.
There is a part in the anapana sutta that I still cannot relate to my experience, so I was hoping someone could clarify it:
[8] One trains oneself to breathe in calming mental agitation, and to breathe out calming mental agitation.
"[9] One trains oneself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind.
[10] One trains oneself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind.
[11] One trains oneself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind.
[12] One trains oneself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind.
"[13] One trains oneself to breathe in (mindful of) inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy.
[14] One trains oneself to breathe in mindful of dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out mindful of dispassion.
[15] One trains oneself to breathe in mindful of cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation (emptiness).
[16] One trains oneself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment.
I seem to do well until the mental agitation part. From that part onward it gets a little unrelatable. Or perhaps I already did "dispassion/fading" unknowingly? It did feel as if I was moving into emptiness. Does "relinquishment" relate to the OBE?
Find the relation between the two. One trains oneself to breathe in "air", and to breathe out "air". Simplify. The goal is only to recognize what it is.
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You have made very good progress, bodhimind, and your experiences in your childhood show that you are most probably a reincarnated mystic. You will figure it out just fine.
Cal has made great progress as well. Thank-you for helping out. Soon, with mystics like you two, I will not be needed here any more.
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Thank you for those kind words. I hope I can progress well.
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I am getting orgasms across my body continuously. It seems to move around the back of my neck and head, spreading to my shoulders. They move to my hands. Then to my heart area. It is as if I am showering in a cool spring water. Sometimes they localize around the right side of my body. I can then see an increased blood flow to the right side of my body, such as an increase in redness. They do not bring any general health problems so I feel ok.
This especially happens when: (1) I pay attention to charisms... (2) I hear a certain beautiful music... (3) I eat certain types of food... I am not sure why it happens that way. Perhaps I just became more sensitive to blissfulness, if that is possible. Also, they seem to move along meridians...
I also found that I do not react as negatively to things. I was in the lift when there was a power outage and the whole lift shut down suddenly with a violent jerk. I pressed the bell and waited for a response. But seeing that it was dark and there was nothing else I could do, I decided to just meditate on the floor. The lift maintenance man was quite surprised to see how non-reacting I was when he cranked the door open after twenty to thirty minutes... I simply bided him a thank you and walked away.
Today's meditation brought a strange feeling. I felt as if my body was as soft as a baby. The posture was quite stable and it felt as if I had no bones. Vibrations was fast to come.
It feels as if the physical body is some kind of observatory robot, where I can only sit inside a command center and watch the feedback on the monitors as to what is going on outside. I see sensations, perceptions, mental "patterns" and sensory data flickering around... but they just aren't the "me". Or actually.. there isn't even a "me" to watch, because that thing is on the screen too. Just writing this down because that's sometimes how I perceive it...
I'm getting very sharp intuitions nowadays. It comes as a confirmed thought. Just for an example, I would watch a dice roll, and then I just somehow knew in my head that it would be a 4. Or perhaps it would be that I would say phrases before my friends say them, and they would look at me with a surprised expression (or I would say the exact same thing as them at the exact same time). Or I can get answers for things when I just trust my "inner self"... I don't know what to call this.
I seem to be more sensitive to this... electromagnetic-looking waves/pattern within light. I don't think it's anything supernatural, just an increased sensitivity to what is normally not perceived. I also see a cloud-like layer around people, which might be light reflecting off their bodies, or perhaps from water vapour evaporating from their skin/hair.
Whenever I get the chance now, I will stand still and work on the four cornerstones of mindfulness. It is easy to think in the way: Body, senses, state, mental objects.
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Thank you for those kind words. I hope I can progress well.
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I am getting orgasms across my body continuously. It seems to move around the back of my neck and head, spreading to my shoulders. They move to my hands. Then to my heart area. It is as if I am showering in a cool spring water. Sometimes they localize around the right side of my body. I can then see an increased blood flow to the right side of my body, such as an increase in redness. They do not bring any general health problems so I feel ok.
This is the tactile charism.
This especially happens when: (1) I pay attention to charisms... (2) I hear a certain beautiful music... (3) I eat certain types of food... I am not sure why it happens that way. Perhaps I just became more sensitive to blissfulness, if that is possible. Also, they seem to move along meridians...
Yes, when we lead a righteous lifestyle, then we have the charisms with us all of the time. Yes, we become sensitive to the charisms after a while. Yes, I too found the 'energy' does seem to move along the acupuncture meridians, so I am convinced that those who developed the acupuncture meridian system were most probably mystics, like us here.
I also found that I do not react as negatively to things. I was in the lift when there was a power outage and the whole lift shut down suddenly with a violent jerk. I pressed the bell and waited for a response. But seeing that it was dark and there was nothing else I could do, I decided to just meditate on the floor. The lift maintenance man was quite surprised to see how non-reacting I was when he cranked the door open after twenty to thirty minutes... I simply bided him a thank you and walked away.
Yes, those who learn to meditate deeply develop various superior fruit of attainment, such as equanimity, as you described.
Today's meditation brought a strange feeling. I felt as if my body was as soft as a baby. The posture was quite stable and it felt as if I had no bones. Vibrations was fast to come.
Yes, the body will feel like that when one learns to meditate deeply. And, deep meditation requires learning to relax deeply.
It feels as if the physical body is some kind of observatory robot, where I can only sit inside a command center and watch the feedback on the monitors as to what is going on outside. I see sensations, perceptions, mental "patterns" and sensory data flickering around... but they just aren't the "me". Or actually.. there isn't even a "me" to watch, because that thing is on the screen too. Just writing this down because that's sometimes how I perceive it...
Yes, deep meditation tends to be experienced non-dual.
I'm getting very sharp intuitions nowadays. It comes as a confirmed thought. Just for an example, I would watch a dice roll, and then I just somehow knew in my head that it would be a 4. Or perhaps it would be that I would say phrases before my friends say them, and they would look at me with a surprised expression (or I would say the exact same thing as them at the exact same time). Or I can get answers for things when I just trust my "inner self"... I don't know what to call this.
This is called 'insight.' Insight is one of the superior fruit of attainment that is commonly experienced by those who learn to meditate deeply.
I seem to be more sensitive to this... electromagnetic-looking waves/pattern within light. I don't think it's anything supernatural, just an increased sensitivity to what is normally not perceived. I also see a cloud-like layer around people, which might be light reflecting off their bodies, or perhaps from water vapour evaporating from their skin/hair.
This is the charism of light/
Whenever I get the chance now, I will stand still and work on the four cornerstones of mindfulness. It is easy to think in the way: Body, senses, state, mental objects.
This is good practice. It explains why you are making such good progress.
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It sometimes feels as if the whole body is breathing. When I breathe in, it's as if air goes through the skin. When I breathe out, the air goes out of the skin. Of course it can't be air, but perhaps it is energy of some sort. I often wondered what the Buddha said about "stopping the air going in and out of the ears" but perhaps this is what he means? I remember that when he did that, he experienced pains in his version of the dark night.
I am starting to see faint colours around people. From what I understand, clairvoyants say that one is able to diagnose the health of a person by these sights. I also get very uneasy around people with what I intuitively feel as "dark" or greyish. Are these real or just illusions?
Also, I feel that if I focus on the four chakras, I get "top-heavy" and 'floaty'. Then I need to do a bit of qi-gong to 'ground' myself using the navel chakra or lower dan-tien. I was thinking of getting a yoga mat that has grounding so that I can stay contact with the ground as much as possible.
I feel that when I try to heal someone, then my heart chakra seems to radiate with joy. I read up on a martial arts document and it says that the navel chakra stores vitality and the heart chakra is used to 'customize' the energy, which then comes out from the palms. I wonder if this is true? The only thing I know about it from here is that it is associated with first jhana, which is consistent with the joy and lightness that I feel.
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Just something interesting... I was reading the "Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot.
It says that all of the universe is a projected hologram. This is an actual theory derived from Hawking's black hole theory and what it says is that any information amount can be calculated if one is to observe simply the surface area of the boundary of the object.
So when something calls into a black hole, its information becomes encoded within the boundary instead of being lost, which was what Stephen Hawking previously thought.
In other words, a 3D universe can be encoded in something of much lower dimensionality, such as a 2D universe. A shadow can encode an entire 3D universe - its outside, its inside, its in-betweens. Also, just like a hologram, each tiny fragment of the hologram contains information about the entire hologram - the microcosm reflects the entire macrocosm. In another word to say it... we are one with the universe but simply because of informational distinctions, we appear separate, just like how whirlpools and eddies seem to be separate from the river, even though they are the same body of water.
They're calling it the Unified Field - where all forms of possibilities exist - things people know, don't know, or haven't thought of - Archetypes from the universal consciousness, etc.
Another brain researcher says that the physical brain only serves to translate quantum soup waves into a holographic projection that we call a sensory experience. Memories are not stored in the brain but within these interference patterns that the activity of neurons cause.
So basically they have reached this point where they know the physical aspect of things do not explain anything about consciousness. Of course some of the scientists are unwilling to project it in that way and are very discomforted by the very thought of it. The holographic theory is essentially saying that reality is like a projected dream - and lucid dreams or OBEs or synchronicities or past-lives are also projections from this implicate order.
David Bohm, a protege of Einstein, pushes for the holographic theory and there are many scientists from all kinds of disciplines who are taking support of this idea.
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It sometimes feels as if the whole body is breathing. When I breathe in, it's as if air goes through the skin. When I breathe out, the air goes out of the skin. Of course it can't be air, but perhaps it is energy of some sort. I often wondered what the Buddha said about "stopping the air going in and out of the ears" but perhaps this is what he means? I remember that when he did that, he experienced pains in his version of the dark night.
When attempting to understand ancient religious literature it is useful to keep in mind that the authors of those books had a different world-view than we do. For them the universe was made up of 4-5 elements; so the "air" passing through Siddhartha Gatuama's ears was, I believe, a reference to the sound charism, which he would have interpreted as coming from one of the 4-5 elements, which in this case would have been the element of air.
I am starting to see faint colours around people. From what I understand, clairvoyants say that one is able to diagnose the health of a person by these sights. I also get very uneasy around people with what I intuitively feel as "dark" or greyish. Are these real or just illusions?
Considering that your reports suggest that you have discovered how to meditate deeply, and the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala) are various paranormal abilities that are the product of deep meditation, then I believe it is reasonable to consider that you are indeed experiencing the visual charism. In my case, and my case histories the visual charism often results in seeing chakras and auras.
Also, I feel that if I focus on the four chakras, I get "top-heavy" and 'floaty'. Then I need to do a bit of qi-gong to 'ground' myself using the navel chakra or lower dan-tien. I was thinking of getting a yoga mat that has grounding so that I can stay contact with the ground as much as possible.
I have found walking meditation and tai chi lead to feeling balanced, which is often associated with the term 'grounded' verses the feeling of 'spaciness' which I believe is associated with the kinesthetic charism, which people often find difficult to negotiate.
I feel that when I try to heal someone, then my heart chakra seems to radiate with joy. I read up on a martial arts document and it says that the navel chakra stores vitality and the heart chakra is used to 'customize' the energy, which then comes out from the palms. I wonder if this is true? The only thing I know about it from here is that it is associated with first jhana, which is consistent with the joy and lightness that I feel.
I never found much use in the lower three chakras in healing of deep meditation. However, I have found that when I do healing work a feeling of love and energy seems to originate in my heart chakra and move out my hands to the subject being healed.
Just something interesting... I was reading the "Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot.
It says that all of the universe is a projected hologram. This is an actual theory derived from Hawking's black hole theory and what it says is that any information amount can be calculated if one is to observe simply the surface area of the boundary of the object.
So when something calls into a black hole, its information becomes encoded within the boundary instead of being lost, which was what Stephen Hawking previously thought.
In other words, a 3D universe can be encoded in something of much lower dimensionality, such as a 2D universe. A shadow can encode an entire 3D universe - its outside, its inside, its in-betweens. Also, just like a hologram, each tiny fragment of the hologram contains information about the entire hologram - the microcosm reflects the entire macrocosm. In another word to say it... we are one with the universe but simply because of informational distinctions, we appear separate, just like how whirlpools and eddies seem to be separate from the river, even though they are the same body of water.
They're calling it the Unified Field - where all forms of possibilities exist - things people know, don't know, or haven't thought of - Archetypes from the universal consciousness, etc.
Another brain researcher says that the physical brain only serves to translate quantum soup waves into a holographic projection that we call a sensory experience. Memories are not stored in the brain but within these interference patterns that the activity of neurons cause.
So basically they have reached this point where they know the physical aspect of things do not explain anything about consciousness. Of course some of the scientists are unwilling to project it in that way and are very discomforted by the very thought of it. The holographic theory is essentially saying that reality is like a projected dream - and lucid dreams or OBEs or synchronicities or past-lives are also projections from this implicate order.
David Bohm, a protege of Einstein, pushes for the holographic theory and there are many scientists from all kinds of disciplines who are taking support of this idea.
Michael Talbot, Steven Hawkins, Einstein, David Bohm et al, have not demonstrated that they were or are mystics, so their hypotheses generally do not take into account a purely spiritual (AKA non-physical) universe.
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When attempting to understand ancient religious literature it is useful to keep in mind that the authors of those books had a different world-view than we do. For them the universe was made up of 4-5 elements; so the "air" passing through Siddhartha Gatuama's ears was, I believe, a reference to the sound charism, which he would have interpreted as coming from one of the 4-5 elements, which in this case would have been the element of air.
Very interesting, now that I think about it, that understanding was also present in Egyptian history where they believed that air entered the orifices such as the ears and followed through what they called the mtw. It seems that they might have also used 'air' in that context, but I am not sure.
Considering that your reports suggest that you have discovered how to meditate deeply, and the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala) are various paranormal abilities that are the product of deep meditation, then I believe it is reasonable to consider that you are indeed experiencing the visual charism. In my case, and my case histories the visual charism often results in seeing chakras and auras.
Thank you for the clarification. I do not yet see chakras but I sometimes see faint outlines and electromagnetic patterns, so I hope I will experience it more when I go deeper.
I have found walking meditation and tai chi lead to feeling balanced, which is often associated with the term 'grounded' verses the feeling of 'spaciness' which I believe is associated with the kinesthetic charism, which people often find difficult to negotiate.
Thank you, I will definitely put walking meditation as part of my regimen, so that I can ground myself better.
Michael Talbot, Steven Hawkins, Einstein, David Bohm et al, have not demonstrated that they were or are mystics, so their hypotheses generally do not take into account a purely spiritual (AKA non-physical) universe.
Thank you for the clarification. Upon further reading, they do not seem to fully understand the mechanics as well.
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I noticed that Buddhist literature did not really talk much about the auditory charism and I happened to stumble on this yoga document that said the following quotes on the inner sound:
nâda: “Sound; tone, vibration.”
Metaphysically, the mystic sounds of
the Eternal, of which the highest is
the transcendent, Soundless Sound,
Paranâda, the first vibration from
which creation emanates. Paranâda
is so pure and subtle that it cannot be identified to
the denser regions of the mind. From Paranâda comes
Pranava, Aum, and further evolutes of nâda. These are
experienced by the meditator as the nâdanâ∂î sakti,
“energy current of sound,” heard pulsing through the
nerve system as a steady high-pitched hum, much
like a tambura, an electrical transformer, a swarm of
bees or a sruti box. Listening to the inner sounds is a
contemplative practice called nâda upâsanâ, “worship
through sound,” nâda anusandhâna, “cultivation of
inner sound,” or nâda yoga “union through sound.”
Subtle variations of the nâdanâ∂î sakti represent the
psychic wavelengths of established guru lineages of
many Indian religions. Nâda also refers to other psychic
sounds heard during deep meditation, including
those resembling various musical instruments.
The auditory charism I experience is somewhat like they described, as an electrical transformer from the center of the head. When attending to it, it sends blissful and orgasm-like sensations throughout my body.
In this book, it seems that they call it nada.
Just a few more quotes:
The seventh merger is into the nâda-nâ∂î sakti, that unrelenting sound
heard as an inexplainable “eee,” of a thousand vînâs being played simultaneously
by Vînâdhâra, another form of Lord Siva, the maker of sound, the
composer of the symphony. The nâda is traced to its source, deep within
the within, the city of a thousand lights and sounds, for sound is light and
light is sound in this sphere of Sat chid ânanda, all-pervasive oneness with
all form, the Self flowing through the mind, untouched by it, yet sustaining
it in a mightily mysterious way.
Those of you who hear the nâda, it’s the
same inner sound, morning, noon and night, 365 days a year. The light
that lights your thoughts, 365 days a year, twenty-four hours a day, is the
same. It lights up your dreams also. And the energy of your body—all
coming from Siva.
Give up consciousness which is seeing and registering that
which has been seen. Become the sound, nâda; just be and merge into the
Ultimate Quiet.
Listening to the nâda, as it is called in Sanskrit,
or nâda-nâ∂î sakti, brings the threshold of bliss and shows that the
balance of all karmas has been attained. Listening to the nâda and tracing
it into its source carries the seeker’s awareness to the brink of the Absolute.
Many sincere seekers wonder why they cannot hear “eeeeee,” the nâda, during
their meditation, whereas others not only hear it during meditation but
during the day when talking, shopping or just meandering through the
garden. This is to say, it is there when awareness enters that area of the
mind. The mind has to be made empty. That means resolving all unresolved
conflicts within the subconscious. The striving to hear the nâda
will bring up unresolved issues. They may plague the conscious mind
until resolved. At first you might disregard them and feel they will go away
as abruptly as they came. But later, when they persist, and the major one
is deception—yes, we can even deceive ourselves—we are inwardly forced
to face up to, admit our secrets and make amends. When deception goes,
the nâda comes. When the subconscious is heavy, the nâda and the brilliant
colors it radiates fade. Failure on the path puts the nâda out of range
of the inner ear of the soul. ¶The mystical nâda, it’s a medley of sounds,
and each sound which is there has a color, but may be covered, as is the
light of the mind of the soul, the clear white light. It is covered, but not
permanently. Admittance of the mistakes, the experience of repentance
and the performance of penance, called prâ yas chitta, lay the foundation
for a reconciliation that will release the force of lower nature into the
higher and uncloud the veil that hid the inner light, that hid the nâda—
that incomprehensible high-pitched “eee,” sounding within the head, that
incomparable source of inner security, contentment and outpouring of
love. When you hear the nâda, endeavor to project it in love’s outpouring
to all those who are in your orbit of communication. They will feel the
blessings when your divine love is projected through your nâda into their
nâda. This is the height of selfless consciousness, universal love, a constant,
mystical outpouring and experience of oneness. The sushumnâ is nâda
and more. Nâda sakti is. It just is.
Those who receive ÍSva’s grace are liberated from the
ego-binding impurity called ânava. Transcending the
states of bindu–light and nâda–sound, they become
as Prânava Aum and merge in pure Íiva. Verily, this is
the pristine state. --- Tirumantiram 2233
^ This seems to refer to the visual charism as well...
clairaudience: “Clear-hearing.” Psychic or divine hearing,
divyasravana. The ability to hear the inner currents
of the nervous system, the Aum and other mystic
tones. Hearing in one’s mind the words of inner-plane
beings or earthly beings not physically present. Also,
hearing the nâdanâ∂î sakti through the day or while in
meditation. See: clairvoyance, extrasensory, ESP, nâda,
nâda nâ∂î sakti.
paranâda: ¥¿≤ŸÆ “Transcendent sound, tone or vibration.”
Metaphysically, the highest mystic sounds of
the Eternal, the transcendent or Soundless Sound, the
first vibration from which creation emanates. From
Paranâda comes Pranava Aum and further evolutes
of nâda. See: Aum, nâda.
This seems to tie in quite nicely with the GWV's view that dibba-sota / divine hearing is related to the auditory charism.
I do not know much about the writers of the book, but it was offered for free on their site as a pdf here: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/media/books/merging-with-siva/merging-with-siva.pdf At first glance, they seem to have pretty joyous faces (http://www.himalayanacademy.com/monastery/meet-the-monks). However, they have lineages, so I am not too sure about that.
I am strictly only interested in what they wrote in the book though, since it seems to show some insight into the auditory charism. I might look into it more to see what they have to say about the visual charism... Just wanted to know the views of the GWV on their accuracy before I dig deeper.
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Thank-you, bodhimind, for posting the quotes and download link for the book, Merging with Íiva, Hinduism’s Contemporary Metaphysics was first published by Himalayan Academy in 1998. (http://www.himalayanacademy.com/media/books/merging-with-siva/merging-with-siva.pdf) Interesting quotes. It sounds like one or more of these yogis might actually have direct experience with the sound charism. But, I do keep in mind, "we know a tree by its fruit." So, if they only have one fruit of attainment, then why? Because, most people get more than one fruit, if they have gotten any at all, as we see here in our small community.
Very interesting, now that I think about it, that understanding was also present in Egyptian history where they believed that air entered the orifices such as the ears and followed through what they called the mtw. It seems that they might have also used 'air' in that context, but I am not sure.
Yes, most ancient peoples in EurAsia had the concept of 4 to 5 elements, and air was one of them. In fact the 5 element theory in Europe has only been in disuse for a few centuries.
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Record of my past few meditations...
The blissful energy burns away the deepest roots, but the ego tries to hold on, saying things like "This is you! It will burn you away!" But then I realize that the thoughts were never me - and I let the golden light rinse it away. It's as if they had some reactionary mind of their own, as residual energies, as blockages, or whatever they are. The energy intensifies and burns, my tail-bone burns, under my eyes I see an expanse of brightness. I hope this carries me into the OBE soon.
Truly, if I see the illusions, then they can no longer affect me. But I need to see them first - that is where my mindfulness is crucial. They latch onto every possible thing - it is truly the case where attachment or clinging brings onto suffering.
All I can do is continuously surrender to it, again and again. So many layers. I let go of one, and it appears again. Or it reveals something deeper.
The auditory and visual charisms are so loud and bright nowadays... I just need to saturate in that energy. I find that when I keep my spine as straight as possible, the bliss spreads more evenly.
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Bodhimind, you are making very good progress. Yes, the charisms become more intense as we approach the OOBE. Yes, keeping the spine erect does indeed intensify the experience of deep meditation. Yes, submitting, letting go and surrendering to the deep meditation experience makes it much more deep, much more profound. Yes, our identity is tied up in all of the layers of the self; but as we go deeper into the meditation experience, the more we shed those layers of self, which requires letting go.
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Good work bodhimind, I enjoy reading your progress. My own meditations are unfortunately dry, saturated with endless effort, conflict, and boredom with very little bliss, joy, or energy to surrender to. What practice have you been following? Each week I've been trying something new, but I'm accepting the fact that my current practice/lifestyle is as impeccable as it can be.
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Bodhimind, you are making very good progress. Yes, the charisms become more intense as we approach the OOBE. Yes, keeping the spine erect does indeed intensify the experience of deep meditation. Yes, submitting, letting go and surrendering to the deep meditation experience makes it much more deep, much more profound. Yes, our identity is tied up in all of the layers of the self; but as we go deeper into the meditation experience, the more we shed those layers of self, which requires letting go.
Thank you for the clear explanation... The blissfulness can be so intense, and it feels like it will only get even more intense...
Good work bodhimind, I enjoy reading your progress. My own meditations are unfortunately dry, saturated with endless effort, conflict, and boredom with very little bliss, joy, or energy to surrender to. What practice have you been following? Each week I've been trying something new, but I'm accepting the fact that my current practice/lifestyle is as impeccable as it can be.
I enjoy reading what you post too. I feel like bliss started to open up for me when I separated the negativity and the things that are not-self from the Divine which is full of ecstasy. Afterall, nirvana is literally the end of suffering - so it can't possibly include anything about misery or those intense emotions that rise out of nowhere... When I started recognizing that the high-pitched sounds were that of the Divine, I submitted to it, I gave in to it and the bliss naturally intensified throughout my body.
Although this might not be entirely accurate, the way I imaged it is as if I had a line of chakras above my head extending way out into the infinity of the universe... There is the Divine, which is way, way out there. Then at each chakra down from the Divine (or perhaps gods of different planes) the energy from the Divine halves... so when it gets to the crown chakra, it feels like a connection to spirit. I also felt connected to the earth, or mother earth, who I feel is why we say Shakti rises from below upwards to reunite with Shiva.
Perhaps it has to do with the internal reverence, or perhaps the simply gratitude that I feel... I remember a GWV member (I think it was jay) who told me that he did not need to do any 'technique' but just follow his bliss. So I tried to do that... at first my heart had a gaping hole - then it was my throat... then it went up and up, as if was shakti trying to move up and up and up, healing and opening the chakras at each level... And I felt that each opening also corresponded loosely to the jhanas, just as Jhanananda described in the GWV video.
And posture really helped me too. I realized there was this point, if you adjusted your spine by rocking forward and backwards, where the tailbone starts to buzz. Then if you open your heart/chest and pull the shoulders back a little... and pull the back of the head backwards, as if the top of the head is tied to a string... Then the energy fills the heart area and the back of the head.
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Those stupid illusions. When I meditate they come in droves, never ending. The bulk of my own meditation time is calming and realizing that they can be loved and observed. After some time, an infinite darkness can come over me, its in that moment of surrender that a fear of an OOBE can bring me back to consciousness. Perhaps you are knocking on the door of the OOBE right now Bodhimind.
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I remember a GWV member (I think it was jay) who told me that he did not need to do any 'technique' but just follow his bliss.
I was going to suggest something similar to this -- the idea being that, in meditation, we are body-scanning for some little manifestation of pleasant sensation, and then we shift our meditation object to the pleasant sensation. We may need to lose it and find it a few times, or it may shift locations and/or morph, but the idea is to follow the pleasant sensation just as we had previously followed the breath. I believe that jhana/samadhi is an extension of a perfect Intelligence that knows precisely how to navigate our individual complexes of resistance, and eventually the small pleasant sensation will blossom into bliss, joy and ecstasy that follows patterns well-expressed on this forum. There is a lot of letting-go that happens along the way, including our notions of what jhana/samadhi is "supposed" to feel like....
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Perhaps it has to do with the internal reverence, or perhaps the simply gratitude that I feel... I remember a GWV member (I think it was jay) who told me that he did not need to do any 'technique' but just follow his bliss. So I tried to do that... at first my heart had a gaping hole - then it was my throat... then it went up and up, as if was shakti trying to move up and up and up, healing and opening the chakras at each level... And I felt that each opening also corresponded loosely to the jhanas, just as Jhanananda described in the GWV video.
And posture really helped me too. I realized there was this point, if you adjusted your spine by rocking forward and backwards, where the tailbone starts to buzz. Then if you open your heart/chest and pull the shoulders back a little... and pull the back of the head backwards, as if the top of the head is tied to a string... Then the energy fills the heart area and the back of the head.
I was going to suggest something similar to this -- the idea being that, in meditation, we are body-scanning for some little manifestation of pleasant sensation, and then we shift our meditation object to the pleasant sensation. We may need to lose it and find it a few times, or it may shift locations and/or morph, but the idea is to follow the pleasant sensation just as we had previously followed the breath. I believe that jhana/samadhi is an extension of a perfect Intelligence that knows precisely how to navigate our individual complexes of resistance, and eventually the small pleasant sensation will blossom into bliss, joy and ecstasy that follows patterns well-expressed on this forum. There is a lot of letting-go that happens along the way, including our notions of what jhana/samadhi is "supposed" to feel like....
You both have it figured out. Very good.
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Those stupid illusions. When I meditate they come in droves, never ending. The bulk of my own meditation time is calming and realizing that they can be loved and observed. After some time, an infinite darkness can come over me, its in that moment of surrender that a fear of an OOBE can bring me back to consciousness. Perhaps you are knocking on the door of the OOBE right now Bodhimind.
I hope so, I hope so. I will increase my meditation time, and perhaps that is what is hindering me. :)
I feel sometimes... as if these illusions are thought-forms, shrouded by a black cloud. As if it was an angel that was masked in darkness, and removing the cloud allows it to be healed and free. But perhaps it is just part of my imaginative delusion haha. I don't know why... but I feel as if we're running in a simulator - or like a computer - just like The Matrix. What do I know though, until I get deeper so I don't have misguided speculations... haha
I was going to suggest something similar to this -- the idea being that, in meditation, we are body-scanning for some little manifestation of pleasant sensation, and then we shift our meditation object to the pleasant sensation. We may need to lose it and find it a few times, or it may shift locations and/or morph, but the idea is to follow the pleasant sensation just as we had previously followed the breath. I believe that jhana/samadhi is an extension of a perfect Intelligence that knows precisely how to navigate our individual complexes of resistance, and eventually the small pleasant sensation will blossom into bliss, joy and ecstasy that follows patterns well-expressed on this forum. There is a lot of letting-go that happens along the way, including our notions of what jhana/samadhi is "supposed" to feel like....
Thank you Michael, I couldn't have put it in clearer words than you have. It is strange that I accidentally 'stumbled' upon this but completely forgot about it in the past. I believe it was the kinesthetic charism (huge dizziness) that yanked me out in fear. I remember searching for guidance on that experience and the only one I heard about was the 'avoid premature kundalini' crowd.
I also increasingly believe that it is part of a beautiful, hyper intelligence... It's as if I step into transformers that unlock the blissfulness in different grades, going up and up and up. Each time it's as if I get closer to the bon-fire (eg. as I get closer, I smell the ash, I see more of the flame, I feel more of the heat).
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Those stupid illusions. When I meditate they come in droves, never ending. The bulk of my own meditation time is calming and realizing that they can be loved and observed. After some time, an infinite darkness can come over me, its in that moment of surrender that a fear of an OOBE can bring me back to consciousness. Perhaps you are knocking on the door of the OOBE right now Bodhimind.
I hope so, I hope so. I will increase my meditation time, and perhaps that is what is hindering me. :)
I feel sometimes... as if these illusions are thought-forms, shrouded by a black cloud. As if it was an angel that was masked in darkness, and removing the cloud allows it to be healed and free. But perhaps it is just part of my imaginative delusion haha. I don't know why... but I feel as if we're running in a simulator - or like a computer - just like The Matrix. What do I know though, until I get deeper so I don't have misguided speculations... haha
Well, I've noticed different types of them. Sometimes I am viewing somebody here on earth. They could be doing any variety of activity. Other times its some spike headed fuck with the intention of scaring me. There are others that may even look back at me. I do feel that all of them are thought forms, that they are real, somewhere, and probably live some sort of life.
I feel that all the layers of jhana are shrouded by a black cloud. That as we proceed through them, a curtain is lifted. These attachments or fetters, I see them as demons. They are the black cloud, and in meditation, in surrender, a hole is opened in them and light comes through. I picture this as some fucker with his hand over my face, and light can come between its fingers. I've come to this through viewing the visual field in meditation as if it were my own eyes. There are times that I can relinquish the body, and its these times that I see it this way. There are other times that more curtains might be dropped, such as my most recent meditation.
We do live in a "matrix". ^.^
As far as time spent in meditation, just ride with the experiences. There was this one sit that I was meditating for nearly 2 hours, but then there are others that are 30mins-1hour. Sometimes I just fall asleep. Just go with the flow man.
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Well, I've noticed different types of them. Sometimes I am viewing somebody here on earth. They could be doing any variety of activity. Other times its some spike headed fuck with the intention of scaring me. There are others that may even look back at me. I do feel that all of them are thought forms, that they are real, somewhere, and probably live some sort of life.
In reference to my post under In search of understanding (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,768.msg7575.html#new), as we begin to experience the various depths of meditation we begin to experience the various charisms. It just so happens that these charisms originate in the spiritual realm. The spiritual realm also abounds with spiritual beings, some of which are benevolent, some are neither harmful, nor helpful; and others are down right evil.
Generally as we negotiate the layers of the 8 stages of depth in meditation we become more and more aware of the spiritual realms. Here we become aware of the 3 types of spiritual beings. It is the more malevolent ones that get our attention most, because they mean to do harm to all.
The solution is not to pay them any attention, and keep going deeper. As we shed the layers of the self, we become more benevolent, so we become transparent to the malevolent entities, so they do not see us, and we do not see them, unless we need to.
I feel that all the layers of jhana are shrouded by a black cloud. That as we proceed through them, a curtain is lifted. These attachments or fetters, I see them as demons. They are the black cloud, and in meditation, in surrender, a hole is opened in them and light comes through. I picture this as some fucker with his hand over my face, and light can come between its fingers. I've come to this through viewing the visual field in meditation as if it were my own eyes. There are times that I can relinquish the body, and its these times that I see it this way. There are other times that more curtains might be dropped, such as my most recent meditation.
We do live in a "matrix". ^.^
True the immaterial domains are very matrix-like. When we shed all of the layers of the self, then we unplug from the "matrix."
We can see how those who begin to experience the spiritual dimensions will encounter spirits of all three kinds. We can also see how organized religion has demonized deep meditation, and out of their fear of deep meditation they have also demonized the mystics who cultivate the deep meditation experience.
Thus, there is almost never someone we can discuss these phenomena with, and thus organized religion has no answer for these experiences. It also takes tremendous courage to negotiate the 8 layers of the deep meditation experience, because one has to develop the necessary level of equanimity to encounter legions of demons, and not be frightened by them.
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Perhaps that is why they call it the Makyo's cave - because people face their demons and cannot navigate them properly.
This is reminiscent of a quote from the Sufi mystic Mirza Khan, Ansari:
To the sinful and vicious, I may appear to be evil. But to the good—beneficent am I.
And this quote from the Latin Carmina Burana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Burana):
Parum centum sex nummate
so durant, ubi immoderate
bibunt omnes sine meta,
quamvis bibant mente leta.
Sic nos rodunt omnes gentes
et sic erimus egentes.
Qui nos rodunt, confundantur
et cum iustis non scribantur.
Possible Translation:
However much they drink,
we are the ones everyone scorn on,
and thus we are destitute.
May those who slander us be cursed,
and their names not written in the book of the righteous.
It does sound like a huge grievance against those who crucify or marginalize the mystics...
Now that I think about it... The main character in The Matrix was continuously chased/blocked/attacked/suppressed by Agent Smith - who was present in every other person within the simulation. Perhaps it was talking about this. Also strange how it was written using the philosophy of Plato's Cave.
I will need to strive more in equanimity. Perhaps it is about not being concerned with the 'content' but just staying within the 'context', the "I" who sees. When no thought arises, there can't possibly be fear, because there is no sorting between pleasure and pain. But I feel that there might be a depth to this... Habit energies tend to pull me into fear whenever the unknown happens. Perhaps it is wrong self-identification that is the problem.
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Now that I think about it... The main character in The Matrix was continuously chased/blocked/attacked/suppressed by Agent Smith - who was present in every other person within the simulation. Perhaps it was talking about this. Also strange how it was written using the philosophy of Plato's Cave.
I will need to strive more in equanimity. Perhaps it is about not being concerned with the 'content' but just staying within the 'context', the "I" who sees. When no thought arises, there can't possibly be fear, because there is no sorting between pleasure and pain. But I feel that there might be a depth to this... Habit energies tend to pull me into fear whenever the unknown happens. Perhaps it is wrong self-identification that is the problem.
For sure, agent smith is everywhere lol. But hey man, context is important, and you're correct in self-identification with the spirit, and not the body. Sorry for my un-filtered response, I'm not trying to scare anybody. The important thing about these fuckers is so far in my experience the worst they have done is scared the shit out of me, or in directly challenging, they have made me pretty uncomfortable. No lasting damage. They are a joke, and the last couple of days, I've taken them for rides. You have control at some point, and that was something I've been missing for awhile. The biggest mistake that I ever made was letting them dictate anything. So in the earlier meditation when I could see them as a passing image, if I allowed fear of them, I could regress. Laugh at them, they are funny.
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Perhaps that is why they call it the Makyo's cave - because people face their demons and cannot navigate them properly.
To the sinful and vicious, I may appear to be evil. But to the good—beneficent am I.
I agree with this.
It does sound like a huge grievance against those who crucify or marginalize the mystics...
Yes, and their fear is irrational.
Now that I think about it... The main character in The Matrix was continuously chased/blocked/attacked/suppressed by Agent Smith - who was present in every other person within the simulation. Perhaps it was talking about this. Also strange how it was written using the philosophy of Plato's Cave.
Yes, I liked the movie for precisely this reason, but I found few got it.
I will need to strive more in equanimity. Perhaps it is about not being concerned with the 'content' but just staying within the 'context', the "I" who sees. When no thought arises, there can't possibly be fear, because there is no sorting between pleasure and pain. But I feel that there might be a depth to this... Habit energies tend to pull me into fear whenever the unknown happens. Perhaps it is wrong self-identification that is the problem.
This is well said. So, through daily practice of deep meditation we overcome the habits of the mind.
For sure, agent smith is everywhere lol. But hey man, context is important, and you're correct in self-identification with the spirit, and not the body. Sorry for my un-filtered response, I'm not trying to scare anybody. The important thing about these fuckers is so far in my experience the worst they have done is scared the shit out of me, or in directly challenging, they have made me pretty uncomfortable. No lasting damage. They are a joke, and the last couple of days, I've taken them for rides. You have control at some point, and that was something I've been missing for awhile. The biggest mistake that I ever made was letting them dictate anything. So in the earlier meditation when I could see them as a passing image, if I allowed fear of them, I could regress. Laugh at them, they are funny.
Correct. The demons can do nothing to us, but frighten us. If we do not let them frighten us, then they are powerless. When in OOBE all we need do is fly up and away from the demons, because they are held in the lower realms through their craving and covetousness.
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They are a joke, and the last couple of days, I've taken them for rides. You have control at some point, and that was something I've been missing for awhile. The biggest mistake that I ever made was letting them dictate anything. So in the earlier meditation when I could see them as a passing image, if I allowed fear of them, I could regress. Laugh at them, they are funny.
I'm going to keep that one in mind haha.
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I suddenly realized exactly why Lao-Tzu was always depicted to be riding a donkey/water buffalo. Below shows the Christ riding a donkey as well haha. I have no idea why Lao-Tzu is always sitting backwards on it though. I guess it might have meant the body, just like how St. Francis called his "Brother Donkey" lol
(http://www.taoistiching.org/image/image157.jpg)
Interesting, Lao-Tzu comes by two other names: Li-Er (personal name) and Bo-Yang (courtesy name). According to this page (http://palani.org/bhogar-biography.htm), Siddha Bhoganāthar transmigrated into the body of a deceased Chinese male and then went by the name "Bo-Yang" (sounds similar to Bogam). Apparently he was versed in Jnana Yoga, which also explains how logical the teachings of Lao-Tzu were in the Tao Te Ching. Bo-Yang is supposed to mean "bliss", which represents the kundalini.
Don't know if the history is true, since it sounds a little fantastic, but it's just a little interesting that the kundalini yoga practices migrated from both ends of the Himalayas - one to India and the other to China. If it's true, that could explain why Taoism was so ingrained in the chinese culture before Buddhism spread into it in the 2nd century.
I'm confused though. If there were so many enlightened masters before the Buddha (3102 BC), why did Gautama need to turn the dharma-wheel (560-80 BC)? He did say that he was the first, if I am not wrong? Or maybe I got the timeline reversed?
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A friend also told me about how using earthing mats improved his health significantly, especially his gastrointestinal problems. The only problem is how expensive some of these mats can be, so I would rather go barefoot on the earth.
Going to increase my intensity to 3 hours and see if I can go deeper.
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I suddenly realized exactly why Lao-Tzu was always depicted to be riding a donkey/water buffalo. Below shows the Christ riding a donkey as well haha. I have no idea why Lao-Tzu is always sitting backwards on it though. I guess it might have meant the body, just like how St. Francis called his "Brother Donkey" lol
The donkey and water buffalo are the conveyance of the peasant. Sitting backwards shows the buffalo does the driving while Lao Tsu, being a stand in for the spirit, does not attend to the world, but attends to awareness/spirit.
Don't know if the history is true, since it sounds a little fantastic, but it's just a little interesting that the kundalini yoga practices migrated from both ends of the Himalayas - one to India and the other to China. If it's true, that could explain why Taoism was so ingrained in the chinese culture before Buddhism spread into it in the 2nd century.
It is the opinion of historians that Lao Tsu and Siddhartha Gautama were roughly contemporaneous. It also simply took time for Buddhism to move from India to China. Along the way it passed through Persia, then traveled to China on the silk road.
I'm confused though. If there were so many enlightened masters before the Buddha (3102 BC), why did Gautama need to turn the dharma-wheel (560-80 BC)? He did say that he was the first, if I am not wrong? Or maybe I got the timeline reversed?
Every religion corrupts the teachings of the enlightened mystics, so new mystics have to come along and pull wisdom (dhamma wheel) out of the gutter where the priests of mainstream religion put it.
A friend also told me about how using earthing mats improved his health significantly, especially his gastrointestinal problems. The only problem is how expensive some of these mats can be, so I would rather go barefoot on the earth.
In recent years I conducted extensive experiments with grounding and shielding. I found grounding, or shielding, alone did nothing to improve my health; however, I found implementing both grounding and shielding at the same time did. I also found it was more useful at night while I slept, and less useful through the day. You can find some of my experiments under Electromagnetic radiation and health (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,697.0.html) and also under Space weather and health (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,942.0.html).
If you are only interested in grounding equipment, then you can search Google for "ESD" or ElectroStatic device. The electronic industry requires grounding of technicians when they are working with electronics, and the equipment for this has been in place for decades, so competition has driven down the price, and should be quite affordable. If you check the above two links, then you will find links for ESD equipment.
Going to increase my intensity to 3 hours and see if I can go deeper.
Good work.
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The donkey and water buffalo are the conveyance of the peasant. Sitting backwards shows the buffalo does the driving while Lao Tsu, being a stand in for the spirit, does not attend to the world, but attends to awareness/spirit.
Now that makes more sense! Haha, thank you for clarifying this.
Every religion corrupts the teachings of the enlightened mystics, so new mystics have to come along and pull wisdom (dhamma wheel) out of the gutter where the priests of mainstream religion put it.
That makes sense, thank you.
In recent years I conducted extensive experiments with grounding and shielding. I found grounding, or shielding, alone did nothing to improve my health; however, I found implementing both grounding and shielding at the same time did. I also found it was more useful at night while I slept, and less useful through the day. You can find some of my experiments under Electromagnetic radiation and health (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,697.0.html) and also under Space weather and health (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,942.0.html).
If you are only interested in grounding equipment, then you can search Google for "ESD" or ElectroStatic device. The electronic industry requires grounding of technicians when they are working with electronics, and the equipment for this has been in place for decades, so competition has driven down the price, and should be quite affordable. If you check the above two links, then you will find links for ESD equipment.
Thank you for the resources, I will definitely check it out.
Would you recommend an antistatic wrist band, or simply a mat, for example? Also, from what I understand, grounding also occurs on electrical appliances. Would it not be possible to link a wire directly from the metallic surface of an existing appliance? Or perhaps a water pipe connected to the ground? I am in no way an electrician, maybe I need to read up more on it.
Is there a reason why both must be done together? Shielding is from EMF, while grounding is the dispelling of charges in the body, right? Would it be a good hypothesis to say that EMF causes the build-up of charges in the body?
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I was thinking about what Jhanananda said in this post (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,1107.msg7592.html#msg7592)about collective delusions. Does this actually mean that every single thing that we could ever experience, either in the lowest planes of the astral plane, in dreams, and even all the way up to the Brahma realms, are all collective delusions? Does this also mean that this very reality right now is also a collective delusion?
I'm trying to understand this experientially. If I watch the four cornerstones of mindfulness, it appears that these things appear out of nowhere and disappear to nowhere. If I were to grasp at the present, it would simply be an impression while the moment has already slipped into the past. But throughout, in the "empty block" between future and past, between thoughts and phenomena, before things arise, there has always been this awareness. Does this mean that any thing this awareness is aware, or "unconsciously aware" of, is delusion, hence the word Maya comprising everything else that is not nibbana?
Therefore, lucid dreams - astral projections - remote viewing - or even just perception of reality through the five sense contacts, are just collective delusions? It is a collectively generated matrix?
From what I understand, there are also collective "archetypes" as Jung expressed. So would it be that all beings have collectively contributed to this thought-form? Would it be what people call an Egregore (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore) ?
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Another point was the concept of Shaktipat that I came across while reading some things about kundalini yoga. From what I read, it says that sages emit a "field" around them. So if one does not restrain the field, it can cause all kinds of emotional reactions from people around them, causing them to be offended, emotional, etc. I read of people bursting into tears, becoming moved, or even angry at the mystic. Or in other words, 'accelerating' one's karma/habit energies (as if they were going through the Dark Night??). Do you think this is true?
The reason why I even brought this up was because of my experience in group meditation. I know that if one is able to achieve jhana, then somehow, as if we were swinging metronomes, then everyone else rises up to that depth of meditation. So perhaps it is possible that we influence others around us when we keep ourselves in jhana throughout the day (which in this case, they called shaktipat). If this is true, is there a way we can prevent such a thing from happening? I mean, we certainly don't want people around us to go into emotional bouts while they are completely unaware of how to understand what is happening...
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Would you recommend an antistatic wrist band, or simply a mat, for example? Also, from what I understand, grounding also occurs on electrical appliances. Would it not be possible to link a wire directly from the metallic surface of an existing appliance? Or perhaps a water pipe connected to the ground? I am in no way an electrician, maybe I need to read up more on it.
It depends upon what is easiest, and most effective, to implement. If you check the links then you will find lots of ideas there.
Is there a reason why both must be done together? Shielding is from EMF, while grounding is the dispelling of charges in the body, right? Would it be a good hypothesis to say that EMF causes the build-up of charges in the body?
In electronics grounding without shielding is completely ineffective. The same is true for biophysiological EMF fields.
I was thinking about what Jhanananda said in this post (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,1107.msg7592.html#msg7592)about collective delusions. Does this actually mean that every single thing that we could ever experience, either in the lowest planes of the astral plane, in dreams, and even all the way up to the Brahma realms, are all collective delusions? Does this also mean that this very reality right now is also a collective delusion?
Yes, and no. The higher we go in the immaterial domains, the less delusion, and the more blissful the experience; nonetheless, it is still a delusion.
In the material world, we only control it through effort. Most people are deeply delusional, so their efforts at modifying the world result in continued delusion. However, when trees fall in the forest they make a sound, even if no one hears it. When an asteroid impacts the earth, it makes a crater, and a sound, and may kill animals and plants and people.
I'm trying to understand this experientially. If I watch the four cornerstones of mindfulness, it appears that these things appear out of nowhere and disappear to nowhere. If I were to grasp at the present, it would simply be an impression while the moment has already slipped into the past. But throughout, in the "empty block" between future and past, between thoughts and phenomena, before things arise, there has always been this awareness. Does this mean that any thing this awareness is aware, or "unconsciously aware" of, is delusion, hence the word Maya comprising everything else that is not nibbana?
Therefore, lucid dreams - astral projections - remote viewing - or even just perception of reality through the five sense contacts, are just collective delusions? It is a collectively generated matrix?
From what I understand, there are also collective "archetypes" as Jung expressed. So would it be that all beings have collectively contributed to this thought-form? Would it be what people call an Egregore (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore) ?
When the mind is still, and we withdraw into awareness alone, then there is no past or future and there is no delusion.
Another point was the concept of Shaktipat that I came across while reading some things about kundalini yoga. From what I read, it says that sages emit a "field" around them. So if one does not restrain the field, it can cause all kinds of emotional reactions from people around them, causing them to be offended, emotional, etc. I read of people bursting into tears, becoming moved, or even angry at the mystic. Or in other words, 'accelerating' one's karma/habit energies (as if they were going through the Dark Night??). Do you think this is true?
Most of this comes from Muktananda, who had a hydraulic bed that he used for seducing women. So, since we know a tree by its fruit, then he bore rotten fruit.
The reason why I even brought this up was because of my experience in group meditation. I know that if one is able to achieve jhana, then somehow, as if we were swinging metronomes, then everyone else rises up to that depth of meditation. So perhaps it is possible that we influence others around us when we keep ourselves in jhana throughout the day (which in this case, they called shaktipat). If this is true, is there a way we can prevent such a thing from happening? I mean, we certainly don't want people around us to go into emotional bouts while they are completely unaware of how to understand what is happening...
Yes, and I have used this field of charisms for healing others. So, one who meditates deeply could be a very effective healer, and could make a modest living doing so. Also, group meditations, and meditation retreats are very effective for this reason.
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I was thinking about what Jhanananda said in this post (http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,1107.msg7592.html#msg7592)about collective delusions. Does this actually mean that every single thing that we could ever experience, either in the lowest planes of the astral plane, in dreams, and even all the way up to the Brahma realms, are all collective delusions? Does this also mean that this very reality right now is also a collective delusion?
Yes, and no. The higher we go in the immaterial domains, the less delusion, and the more blissful the experience; nonetheless, it is still a delusion.
In the material world, we only control it through effort. Most people are deeply delusional, so their efforts at modifying the world result in continued delusion. However, when trees fall in the forest they make a sound, even of no one hears it. When an asteroid impacts the earth, it makes a crater, and a sound, and may kill animals and plants and people.
That reality is still reality, even if not perceived...
Another point was the concept of Shaktipat that I came across while reading some things about kundalini yoga. From what I read, it says that sages emit a "field" around them. So if one does not restrain the field, it can cause all kinds of emotional reactions from people around them, causing them to be offended, emotional, etc. I read of people bursting into tears, becoming moved, or even angry at the mystic. Or in other words, 'accelerating' one's karma/habit energies (as if they were going through the Dark Night??). Do you think this is true?
Most of this comes from Muktananda, who had a hydraulic bed that he used for seducing women. So, since we know a tree by its fruit, then he bore rotten fruit.
LOL
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I read up on the hydraulic bed and that was hilarious. It is quite troubling that so many yogi "teachers" are sprouting virtuous words but yet succumbing to lust behind-the-scenes, even going as far as claiming it to be "sexual tantra". I seriously wonder which part of hell this could belong to - it doesn't feel far away from rape.
---
A friend of mine (devout Mahayana practitioner who meditates quite rigorously) shared with me the following, and I thought it was interesting how they described the 'demons' - Apparently it's a quote from the Surangama Sutra:
The Buddha said: "You must all understand that there is no difference between the universal mind of the twelve types of beings birthed in the worlds of suffering and illusion and that of the Buddhas of the ten directions. However, because of distorted thinking, people become ignorant and greedy, and ignorance and greed become universal. Therefore, the original, absolute void is ceaselessly transformed into illusion, and thus the world is created. In reality, this very earth came into being from the stubborn and erroneous thinking of the unenlightened. You must know that voidness is created in your own mind like a wisp of cloud against a clear sky; how much more so the worlds within this void. If just one among you realizes your true nature and reverts to the original source, then the whole void is obliterated. Would not all the nations of this void be shaken and shattered?
"When you practice dhyana and samadhi, all the bodhisattvas and great arhats, whose mind-essences are in perfect accord, remain unmoved, but the king of the demons, together with the ghosts, spirits, and lesser heavens witness the spontaneous collapse of their palaces, and the whole earth is shattered. All the creatures of land, sea, and air are startled. The worldly man labors in darkness and feels no change, whereas the hosts of demons, who have acquired the five supernatural powers but have not yet extinguished their passions, are still attached to the troubles of this world. How can they allow you to destroy their dwellings? This is why when you enter the state of samadhi, the ghosts and spirits, Deva Mara, and monsters and demons swarm about to harass you.
"However, do not be concerned about the maras' rage, for they are afflicted with the passions of the world, while you enjoy wonderful bliss. They can no more touch you than wind can blow out light or a knife can cut water; you are like boiling water and they are like solid ice. As the warm air draws near, the ice is soon melted. Though they rely on their supernatural powers, these are merely external and can only succeed in destroying you through your own internal five skandhas--form, sensation, conception, volition, and consciousness. If you are deluded, they will take advantage of you. When you are established in dhyana, enlightened and free of delusion, what harm can the maras do to you? When your skandhas are wiped out, and you enter a state of perfect clarity, then all evils are but dark vapors. As light overcomes darkness, they will perish as soon as they approach you. How could they dare to disturb your samadhi?
I found it interesting because I was pondering over the collective illusion and happened to read this as well. The last line I bolded also seems to suggest that traits from jhana such as equanimity are required to navigate through it - Also found the "light overcomes darkness" part uncannily similar to how Cal described it.
---
Another resource I picked up was "The Mind Illuminated (http://www.amazon.com/The-Mind-Illuminated-Meditation-Integrating/dp/0990847705)", written by Culadasa. One thing to note is that it uses the Abhidharma, which I know that the GWV does not acknowledge as an accurate/authentic/legit source. The second thing I found quite disturbing while reading it was the translation of "samadhi" as "stable attention". I cringed quite a bit whenever I read that.
However, I give it merit in the way they described samatha and vipassana as a fruits gained from continuous practice. The book also emphasized the attainment of bliss, joy, tranquility and equanimity, which also leads to insight, which he calls "experiential insight".
The second thing that was great was how they emphasized skilfulness by employing mindfulness throughout the day. They did this slightly differently, however - using an "intention" to move back to the one-pointed attention. It would have been great if they used the four cornerstones of mindfulness to categorize the various phenomena. Also, they then said that these jhana factors can perfuse into daily life, and with more training, one becomes "unsurpassable".
A few interesting concepts they had - especially - was the concept of direct and peripheral awareness (Or foreground/background, in my understanding).
It was written by a neuroscientist, which also suggests that the understanding is limited to the functions of the brain and not beyond. However, I saw a chapter on the conscious/unconscious mind, so perhaps I am wrong - I will attempt to finish the chapter and repost a continuation of the review.
---
Practice has been going steadily as normal. I am finding that I tend to not dip into "sluggish" phases as much, and most of my meditation sessions are filled with an opened sensation in my chest and throat, along with that blissful energy that circulates in my body. I find that this blissfulness also moves along with my breath, which is very curious.
I find that if I focus on "external activities", it seems to feel as if my energies dissipate outwards. When I attend to the comfort of the charisms, it feels like a "withdrawal from the six senses", and it also feels as if my "batteries" recharge.
I have been seeing some kind of strobing light for the past few meditations, and I was wondering if this is a normal visual charism, since most of it that I have experienced before was more of a luminescence or a shining light in the heart/coming from the crown etc.
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Ya man, theyre a bunch of fuckers.
This sutta is extremely interesting and I will read it. I am curious what these 12 types of beings are. It also adds some reinforcement to some thoughts Ive been having lately as to why the world is the way it is, why it is led in the direction that it moves, as well as how the collective delusion is maintained. I've felt myself influenced externally for a long time and as I've seen it more intimately, more frequently, some pieces start to fall into place; this sutta helps with that, thank you for sharing it.
That golden strobe light is exactly what I spoke of when I described the sun bursting through the clouds. It can form shapes, or dance, but most prominently it can form a Kasina. I've come to recognize this golden as the first light, however, as it can become much more brilliant as well as more encompassing. Jhananda told me that his entire vision is light...what an amazing experience that would be. Be aware of the chakra that is "active" as you view the visual field and this golden light appears. In my experience, you dont have to leave the body to glimpse higher realms, as a matter of fact, traveling into the golden light, with fuckers attached, is one way ive felt their burden lifted from me. I notice this when the thir-eye chakra is extremely pronounced, almost painfully, in a deep meditative state.
Cheers Bodhimind
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I read up on the hydraulic bed and that was hilarious. It is quite troubling that so many yogi "teachers" are sprouting virtuous words but yet succumbing to lust behind-the-scenes, even going as far as claiming it to be "sexual tantra". I seriously wonder which part of hell this could belong to - it doesn't feel far away from rape.
We just need to keep in mind that "we know a tree by its fruit." And, when we see corrupt religious leaders are more common than truly enlightened teachers who do manifest the fruit of the contemplative life, then we know that we are in hell.
A friend of mine (devout Mahayana practitioner who meditates quite rigorously) shared with me the following, and I thought it was interesting how they described the 'demons' - Apparently it's a quote from the Surangama Sutra:
The Buddha said: "You must all understand that there is no difference between the universal mind of the twelve types of beings birthed in the worlds of suffering and illusion and that of the Buddhas of the ten directions. However, because of distorted thinking, people become ignorant and greedy, and ignorance and greed become universal. Therefore, the original, absolute void is ceaselessly transformed into illusion, and thus the world is created. In reality, this very earth came into being from the stubborn and erroneous thinking of the unenlightened. You must know that voidness is created in your own mind like a wisp of cloud against a clear sky; how much more so the worlds within this void. If just one among you realizes your true nature and reverts to the original source, then the whole void is obliterated. Would not all the nations of this void be shaken and shattered?
"When you practice dhyana and samadhi, all the bodhisattvas and great arhats, whose mind-essences are in perfect accord, remain unmoved, but the king of the demons, together with the ghosts, spirits, and lesser heavens witness the spontaneous collapse of their palaces, and the whole earth is shattered. All the creatures of land, sea, and air are startled. The worldly man labors in darkness and feels no change, whereas the hosts of demons, who have acquired the five supernatural powers but have not yet extinguished their passions, are still attached to the troubles of this world. How can they allow you to destroy their dwellings? This is why when you enter the state of samadhi, the ghosts and spirits, Deva Mara, and monsters and demons swarm about to harass you.
"However, do not be concerned about the maras' rage, for they are afflicted with the passions of the world, while you enjoy wonderful bliss. They can no more touch you than wind can blow out light or a knife can cut water; you are like boiling water and they are like solid ice. As the warm air draws near, the ice is soon melted. Though they rely on their supernatural powers, these are merely external and can only succeed in destroying you through your own internal five skandhas--form, sensation, conception, volition, and consciousness. If you are deluded, they will take advantage of you. When you are established in dhyana, enlightened and free of delusion, what harm can the maras do to you? When your skandhas are wiped out, and you enter a state of perfect clarity, then all evils are but dark vapors. As light overcomes darkness, they will perish as soon as they approach you. How could they dare to disturb your samadhi?
This sutra does provide a context for the spiritual crisis; and I have found it is true that when we drop our delusions in deep meditation, the demons from all directions are threatened; however, I found no evidence to suggest that the physical universe we cease to exist if all humans became enlightened.
I found it interesting because I was pondering over the collective illusion and happened to read this as well. The last line I bolded also seems to suggest that traits from jhana such as equanimity are required to navigate through it - Also found the "light overcomes darkness" part uncannily similar to how Cal described it.
Yes, in Mahayana Buddhism, the term 'dhyana' is an erroneous Sanskrit translation of the Pali term 'jhana.' Knowing this we can place the sutta into the context of this forum dialog.
Another resource I picked up was "The Mind Illuminated (http://www.amazon.com/The-Mind-Illuminated-Meditation-Integrating/dp/0990847705)", written by Culadasa. One thing to note is that it uses the Abhidharma, which I know that the GWV does not acknowledge as an accurate/authentic/legit source. The second thing I found quite disturbing while reading it was the translation of "samadhi" as "stable attention". I cringed quite a bit whenever I read that.
However, I give it merit in the way they described samatha and vipassana as a fruits gained from continuous practice. The book also emphasized the attainment of bliss, joy, tranquility and equanimity, which also leads to insight, which he calls "experiential insight".
The second thing that was great was how they emphasized skilfulness by employing mindfulness throughout the day. They did this slightly differently, however - using an "intention" to move back to the one-pointed attention. It would have been great if they used the four cornerstones of mindfulness to categorize the various phenomena. Also, they then said that these jhana factors can perfuse into daily life, and with more training, one becomes "unsurpassable".
A few interesting concepts they had - especially - was the concept of direct and peripheral awareness (Or foreground/background, in my understanding).
It was written by a neuroscientist, which also suggests that the understanding is limited to the functions of the brain and not beyond. However, I saw a chapter on the conscious/unconscious mind, so perhaps I am wrong - I will attempt to finish the chapter and repost a continuation of the review.
Yes, I am not surprised that you would have a problem with the writing of Culadasa. He joined my earlier Yahoo forum and made quite a bit of effort to assassinate my character there; then after I banned him, he started his own forum, which basically defined jhana in terms of creative visualization. Then a few years later I found myself at Diamond Mountain Buddhist center in South-eastern, AZ, and there a sizable group drove to the Dragoons to meditate and study with Culadasa. I went along to meet him, and as a lark. I figured he would be very threatened by me showing up at his home. He used the opportunity to assassinate my character again. He also demonstrate no understanding of the other superior fruit of attainment. So, I would not recommend his book for anyone who wants to understand deep meditation or jhana.
Practice has been going steadily as normal. I am finding that I tend to not dip into "sluggish" phases as much, and most of my meditation sessions are filled with an opened sensation in my chest and throat, along with that blissful energy that circulates in my body. I find that this blissfulness also moves along with my breath, which is very curious.
I find that if I focus on "external activities", it seems to feel as if my energies dissipate outwards. When I attend to the comfort of the charisms, it feels like a "withdrawal from the six senses", and it also feels as if my "batteries" recharge.
I have been seeing some kind of strobing light for the past few meditations, and I was wondering if this is a normal visual charism, since most of it that I have experienced before was more of a luminescence or a shining light in the heart/coming from the crown etc.
Yes, flashes of light are common manifestations of the charisms (jhana-nimitta). It sounds like you are making excellent progress.
...I am curious what these 12 types of beings are.
I beleive that this is an Astrological reference.
...That golden strobe light is exactly what I spoke of when I described the sun bursting through the clouds. It can form shapes, or dance, but most prominently it can form a Kasina. I've come to recognize this golden as the first light, however, as it can become much more brilliant as well as more encompassing. Jhananda told me that his entire vision is light...what an amazing experience that would be. Be aware of the chakra that is "active" as you view the visual field and this golden light appears. In my experience, you dont have to leave the body to glimpse higher realms, as a matter of fact, traveling into the golden light, with fuckers attached, is one way ive felt their burden lifted from me. I notice this when the thir-eye chakra is extremely pronounced, almost painfully, in a deep meditative state.
Cheers Bodhimind
The spherical light of various colors, which is known as a 'kasina' in the suttas, is the opening to the immaterial domains. It is a tunnel of light that we can leave the body in an OOBE, and at death, to enter the immaterial domains. It thus lies just after the 4th jhana and just prior to the 5th samadhi.
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Ya man, theyre a bunch of fuckers.
This sutta is extremely interesting and I will read it. I am curious what these 12 types of beings are. It also adds some reinforcement to some thoughts Ive been having lately as to why the world is the way it is, why it is led in the direction that it moves, as well as how the collective delusion is maintained. I've felt myself influenced externally for a long time and as I've seen it more intimately, more frequently, some pieces start to fall into place; this sutta helps with that, thank you for sharing it.
That golden strobe light is exactly what I spoke of when I described the sun bursting through the clouds. It can form shapes, or dance, but most prominently it can form a Kasina. I've come to recognize this golden as the first light, however, as it can become much more brilliant as well as more encompassing. Jhananda told me that his entire vision is light...what an amazing experience that would be. Be aware of the chakra that is "active" as you view the visual field and this golden light appears. In my experience, you dont have to leave the body to glimpse higher realms, as a matter of fact, traveling into the golden light, with fuckers attached, is one way ive felt their burden lifted from me. I notice this when the thir-eye chakra is extremely pronounced, almost painfully, in a deep meditative state.
Cheers Bodhimind
You're welcome. It might be possible that the suttas are fabricated and not the original words of the Buddha, or that it might have been inserted by mystics along the path. Or perhaps it might have been botched by translators too.
I also wonder what it would be like to see light even if you close your eyes, that's pretty amazing. I feel that my third-eye might not be completely open, although I do receive intuitive insights. Perhaps I am not focusing on the right space. It's hard to phrase the question, but where exactly do you look when you have the visual charisms? From my memory, when I experienced the kaleidoscopic vision, it was as if my eyes were rolled upwards and the vision was as if it was 'internally projected' on a mental screen. I say this because even when I had my first OBE, I felt that I often lacked the ability to see clearly and was "blind".
For me, the strobing light comes faintly and it becomes especially prominent if I open my eyes. Not sure if it is the same one as you mention though.
Yes, I am not surprised that you would have a problem with the writing of Culadasa. He joined my earlier Yahoo forum and made quite a bit of effort to assassinate my character there; then after I banned him, he started his own forum, which basically defined jhana in terms of creative visualization. Then a few years later I found myself at Diamond Mountain Buddhist center in South-eastern, AZ, and there a sizable group drove to the Dragoons to meditate and study with Culadasa. I went along to meet him, and as a lark. I figured he would be very threatened by me showing up at his home. He used the opportunity to assassinate my character again. He also demonstrate no understanding of the other superior fruit of attainment. So, I would not recommend his book for anyone who wants to understand deep meditation or jhana.
Thank you for the clarification. I guess I will stop reading his book then. I felt that it was far too cognitive and restrained to neuroscientific concepts.
Yes, flashes of light are common manifestations of the charisms (jhana-nimitta). It sounds like you are making excellent progress.
I hope so, because I feel that when it comes to visual-charisms, I tend to be a little 'blinder'. I can feel the tingling and the auditory as if it was day and night, but the visual-charisms for me tend to be a hit or miss, where sometimes I perceive an internal bright light, or sometimes it is completely dull, and only when I open my eyes do I see a strobing bright light.
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Just one more thing to add that I forgot in my previous post:
I've been feeling "mini-explosions" throughout my body and was wondering if it was typical phenomena. They feel as if they are balloons being popped. Just a while ago, I got into a meditative state and then my knee just popped, as if there was "cracking" sound. Then a few days ago, I had popping occur right in the middle of my head. It was quite sudden so it felt a little shocking.
I was thinking that it might have to do with blood vessels suddenly opening and letting blood fill, but it is strange in the sense that the sound seemed to happen inside my head. Is it a charism of some sort, or a typical phenomena, or do I need to get my health checked haha.
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Hahaha I like the way you think Bodhimind. You ask the right, and challenging question.
Ya man, theyre a bunch of fuckers.
This sutta is extremely interesting and I will read it. I am curious what these 12 types of beings are. It also adds some reinforcement to some thoughts Ive been having lately as to why the world is the way it is, why it is led in the direction that it moves, as well as how the collective delusion is maintained. I've felt myself influenced externally for a long time and as I've seen it more intimately, more frequently, some pieces start to fall into place; this sutta helps with that, thank you for sharing it.
That golden strobe light is exactly what I spoke of when I described the sun bursting through the clouds. It can form shapes, or dance, but most prominently it can form a Kasina. I've come to recognize this golden as the first light, however, as it can become much more brilliant as well as more encompassing. Jhananda told me that his entire vision is light...what an amazing experience that would be. Be aware of the chakra that is "active" as you view the visual field and this golden light appears. In my experience, you dont have to leave the body to glimpse higher realms, as a matter of fact, traveling into the golden light, with fuckers attached, is one way ive felt their burden lifted from me. I notice this when the thir-eye chakra is extremely pronounced, almost painfully, in a deep meditative state.
Cheers Bodhimind
You're welcome. It might be possible that the suttas are fabricated and not the original words of the Buddha, or that it might have been inserted by mystics along the path. Or perhaps it might have been botched by translators too.
I think most all of the Suttas have been botched in translation, but the meanings are there, if we look close enough. What we lose in translation is correct adjective; which could change the meaning all-together. Sometimes relying on discernment and intuitive insight (that inner feeling or voice) helps us with seeing what was meant to be seen in them.
But, I know them not to be fabricated; not because I've read them, (there are many that I have not) but that there are many I can relate to a personal experience. Outside of cosmology and descriptions of the highest planes; theres always some part within the Sutta that can resonate from within.
What I appreciate most about the Suttas is they are progressive. So when I encounter something in them that I have not experienced yet, the Suttas themselves still provide a base of progression; both in what could be expected and to where I might be within a particular progression.
Now this one is tricky but, I dont think it matters so much if they are indeed the words of the Buddha himself; only that the experiences described within them resonate true. One difficulty that I would have with some descriptions within coming from a student or another mystic, is the depth, accuracy, and clarity in which the Suttas themselves are able to describe the religious experience. Who ever wrote them, or rather, whoever understood the meaning intended to be conveyed, truly had an immensely intimate understanding of...well...everything.
Many times I have found the Suttas to be metaphorical and requiring some depth of inspection. So for those able to discern, we may find the meaning within them. I'm pretty sure that most of what is written was never intended to be taken at face-value. So as to the above, I do not understand the full meaning, but I do recognize a place within the progression, and that there may be more to the spectrum than I have seen.
I also wonder what it would be like to see light even if you close your eyes, that's pretty amazing. I feel that my third-eye might not be completely open, although I do receive intuitive insights. Perhaps I am not focusing on the right space. It's hard to phrase the question, but where exactly do you look when you have the visual charisms? From my memory, when I experienced the kaleidoscopic vision, it was as if my eyes were rolled upwards and the vision was as if it was 'internally projected' on a mental screen. I say this because even when I had my first OBE, I felt that I often lacked the ability to see clearly and was "blind".
For me, the strobing light comes faintly and it becomes especially prominent if I open my eyes. Not sure if it is the same one as you mention though.
With me, it can depend on a number of things; depth of meditation, "concentration", the level in which I am committed to surrender etc. If I am completely withdrawn, absolutely just had enough with everything, I will close my eye and see a golden light almost immediately. In these times, I will look to the light.
Other times it becomes progressive, and I may not see a golden light until some time into a meditation sit. I can no longer say what level of depth this occurs in because it seems the levels just blurr together anymore; but I can say that it will arise. In the meantime, you can attend to the visual charism in the static snow of the visual field.
However, with me, I only do this if the meditation moves to the third-eye. I know it has moved there when I feel it open; a pressure above the center of the brow, center for-head. When I do attend the visual charism, it feels as if lenses are in front of both eyes and as "intention" is sustained in expanding view, these lenses can roll towards the respective temple on either side of the head.
Theres quite a few things I havent figured out; but I have experienced applying intention to "piercing the darkness", and the golden light appearing. This was done by first applying intention to seeing through the third-eye. It's hard to explain, but basically I do what happens when the third-eye opens in meditation. I know the point prominently, though, so I'm not sure how well that will work for you. But, if you're able to move energy in your body, focus it center forhead and "look beyond" what is there, expand. I do this with my eyes physically closed. You probably wont see anything by doing this initially, but it should at the very least push the third-eye open for you.
I've also experienced this "blindness". I used to ask Jhananada about this alot. It does get clearer, and there really isnt anything you can do to help it right now other than returning to meditation. I found that as the third-eye would flare more in meditation, the clearer "seeing" became. Ya know, it's almost ironic that I was excited and asking questions about opening the third-eye because, it was blurry and unclear when I did see things, to finding that once it was open, it is now my physical eyes that struggle in this regard haha.
Yes, I am not surprised that you would have a problem with the writing of Culadasa. He joined my earlier Yahoo forum and made quite a bit of effort to assassinate my character there; then after I banned him, he started his own forum, which basically defined jhana in terms of creative visualization. Then a few years later I found myself at Diamond Mountain Buddhist center in South-eastern, AZ, and there a sizable group drove to the Dragoons to meditate and study with Culadasa. I went along to meet him, and as a lark. I figured he would be very threatened by me showing up at his home. He used the opportunity to assassinate my character again. He also demonstrate no understanding of the other superior fruit of attainment. So, I would not recommend his book for anyone who wants to understand deep meditation or jhana.
Thank you for the clarification. I guess I will stop reading his book then. I felt that it was far too cognitive and restrained to neuroscientific concepts.
Yes, flashes of light are common manifestations of the charisms (jhana-nimitta). It sounds like you are making excellent progress.
I hope so, because I feel that when it comes to visual-charisms, I tend to be a little 'blinder'. I can feel the tingling and the auditory as if it was day and night, but the visual-charisms for me tend to be a hit or miss, where sometimes I perceive an internal bright light, or sometimes it is completely dull, and only when I open my eyes do I see a strobing bright light.
I tend to not open my eyes much during a meditation sit unless it is one that is in the dark. Daylight I've found to be somewhat of a distraction if I do.
But, the way youre describing this "strobing light" makes me think of the annihilating light. It comes with me in deep meditation sits, at the deepest surrender, just before the OOBE. It's where I can go unconscious before leaving the body. A bright light comes from the right to left and freaking deletes me, hits the "off switch". I am unsure if this is what you were meaning, though.
This thought leaves me thinking about how crazy that moment is, the visual field will vibrate, the blue fire melts away the fabric of whatever the hell it is...deleted...awake, immersed, feeling.
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Just one more thing to add that I forgot in my previous post:
I've been feeling "mini-explosions" throughout my body and was wondering if it was typical phenomena. They feel as if they are balloons being popped. Just a while ago, I got into a meditative state and then my knee just popped, as if there was "cracking" sound. Then a few days ago, I had popping occur right in the middle of my head. It was quite sudden so it felt a little shocking.
I was thinking that it might have to do with blood vessels suddenly opening and letting blood fill, but it is strange in the sense that the sound seemed to happen inside my head. Is it a charism of some sort, or a typical phenomena, or do I need to get my health checked haha.
I experience this "mini-explosion" in the middle of the head, during meditation, as well. I always thought it was the sinus opening, but I do not know for sure. I do know that it happens every meditation sit, and is like you described it.
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I also wonder what it would be like to see light even if you close your eyes, that's pretty amazing. I feel that my third-eye might not be completely open, although I do receive intuitive insights. Perhaps I am not focusing on the right space. It's hard to phrase the question, but where exactly do you look when you have the visual charisms?
A mystic attends to the light charism, so just attend to the light, not the shadow.
I've been feeling "mini-explosions" throughout my body and was wondering if it was typical phenomena. They feel as if they are balloons being popped. Just a while ago, I got into a meditative state and then my knee just popped, as if there was "cracking" sound. Then a few days ago, I had popping occur right in the middle of my head. It was quite sudden so it felt a little shocking.
I was thinking that it might have to do with blood vessels suddenly opening and letting blood fill, but it is strange in the sense that the sound seemed to happen inside my head. Is it a charism of some sort, or a typical phenomena, or do I need to get my health checked haha.
This is interesting phenomena that you describe. It can either be small kundalini bursts, or spontaneous movements, which tend to occur when we learn to relax deeply, and learning to relax deeply is a skill those who meditate deeply develop.
I think most all of the Suttas have been botched in translation, but the meanings are there, if we look close enough. What we lose in translation is correct adjective; which could change the meaning all-together. Sometimes relying on discernment and intuitive insight (that inner feeling or voice) helps us with seeing what was meant to be seen in them.
This is how it works for me.
Now this one is tricky but, I dont think it matters so much if they are indeed the words of the Buddha himself; only that the experiences described within them resonate true. One difficulty that I would have with some descriptions within coming from a student or another mystic, is the depth, accuracy, and clarity in which the Suttas themselves are able to describe the religious experience. Who ever wrote them, or rather, whoever understood the meaning intended to be conveyed, truly had an immensely intimate understanding of...well...everything.
I agree.
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Now this one is tricky but, I dont think it matters so much if they are indeed the words of the Buddha himself; only that the experiences described within them resonate true. One difficulty that I would have with some descriptions within coming from a student or another mystic, is the depth, accuracy, and clarity in which the Suttas themselves are able to describe the religious experience. Who ever wrote them, or rather, whoever understood the meaning intended to be conveyed, truly had an immensely intimate understanding of...well...everything.
Many times I have found the Suttas to be metaphorical and requiring some depth of inspection. So for those able to discern, we may find the meaning within them. I'm pretty sure that most of what is written was never intended to be taken at face-value. So as to the above, I do not understand the full meaning, but I do recognize a place within the progression, and that there may be more to the spectrum than I have seen.
Very true, thank you for that.
With me, it can depend on a number of things; depth of meditation, "concentration", the level in which I am committed to surrender etc. If I am completely withdrawn, absolutely just had enough with everything, I will close my eye and see a golden light almost immediately. In these times, I will look to the light.
Other times it becomes progressive, and I may not see a golden light until some time into a meditation sit. I can no longer say what level of depth this occurs in because it seems the levels just blurr together anymore; but I can say that it will arise. In the meantime, you can attend to the visual charism in the static snow of the visual field.
However, with me, I only do this if the meditation moves to the third-eye. I know it has moved there when I feel it open; a pressure above the center of the brow, center for-head. When I do attend the visual charism, it feels as if lenses are in front of both eyes and as "intention" is sustained in expanding view, these lenses can roll towards the respective temple on either side of the head.
Theres quite a few things I havent figured out; but I have experienced applying intention to "piercing the darkness", and the golden light appearing. This was done by first applying intention to seeing through the third-eye. It's hard to explain, but basically I do what happens when the third-eye opens in meditation. I know the point prominently, though, so I'm not sure how well that will work for you. But, if you're able to move energy in your body, focus it center forhead and "look beyond" what is there, expand. I do this with my eyes physically closed. You probably wont see anything by doing this initially, but it should at the very least push the third-eye open for you.
I've also experienced this "blindness". I used to ask Jhananada about this alot. It does get clearer, and there really isnt anything you can do to help it right now other than returning to meditation. I found that as the third-eye would flare more in meditation, the clearer "seeing" became. Ya know, it's almost ironic that I was excited and asking questions about opening the third-eye because, it was blurry and unclear when I did see things, to finding that once it was open, it is now my physical eyes that struggle in this regard haha.
Good to know this is a common problem! haha
I'm starting to find the difference between how I perceive a dream through my internal vision and my flesh eyes, but I'm still trying to differentiate it. I realize it is when my eyes are slightly turned upwards, just like you said, but I am not aware of how much. It feels a little like a withdrawing away so that it becomes a purely mental image... as if there was a projected screen way behind the eyes.
I tend to not open my eyes much during a meditation sit unless it is one that is in the dark. Daylight I've found to be somewhat of a distraction if I do.
But, the way youre describing this "strobing light" makes me think of the annihilating light. It comes with me in deep meditation sits, at the deepest surrender, just before the OOBE. It's where I can go unconscious before leaving the body. A bright light comes from the right to left and freaking deletes me, hits the "off switch". I am unsure if this is what you were meaning, though.
This thought leaves me thinking about how crazy that moment is, the visual field will vibrate, the blue fire melts away the fabric of whatever the hell it is...deleted...awake, immersed, feeling.
Haha I don't think I've reached that depth yet.
I experience this "mini-explosion" in the middle of the head, during meditation, as well. I always thought it was the sinus opening, but I do not know for sure. I do know that it happens every meditation sit, and is like you described it.
Okay, I thought I burst a vessel or something haha, it can be quite freaky when it happens to the physical body and is not a mental event.
A mystic attends to the light charism, so just attend to the light, not the shadow.
Thank you for this, I realize that it also seems to manifest, as if it was a reflection of my mental state.
This is interesting phenomena that you describe. It can either be small kundalini bursts, or spontaneous movements, which tend to occur when we learn to relax deeply, and learning to relax deeply is a skill those who meditate deeply develop.
Hmm, yes it does feel a little similar to some of the spontaneous kriya movements.
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I increasingly find that "mindfulness of the body" seems to refer to understanding the body as non-self, and hence if applied in meditation, being withdrawn away from the 5 sensory gates. I tried doing a variation of an old meditation I did, contemplating the body as a corpse with flesh rotting away, leaving away the bones. I think it was a Tibetan technique, where I would then invoke metta by joyfully giving away my flesh. Then using that mental state I move into a blissful state and go on from there.
I'm starting to understand the link between breath and mind. The breath seems to have 3 components: In, gap and out. The gap feels like it is when the mind is most silent. It is also when the blissfulness seems to be at, and then eventually it extends to throughout the breath, until I am solely aware of the bliss behind the breath and not the physical breath itself. If I attend to the blissful sensations, I find that my heart opens up as if there was a huge hole and I see light in this area. I also don't know if this is correct or not, but I find that if I try to feel the experience using my heart, instead of trying to cognize the whole thing within my "brain", I naturally give rise to tranquility and so on.
I read through the old advice in my thread and found a good reminder... to stop all doing and ride it on. The more I try to do, the more grasping I have. So I'm just going to shift myself continuously towards the light, the wholesome states, the positive things, the bliss, etc.
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I increasingly find that "mindfulness of the body" seems to refer to understanding the body as non-self, and hence if applied in meditation, being withdrawn away from the 5 sensory gates. I tried doing a variation of an old meditation I did, contemplating the body as a corpse with flesh rotting away, leaving away the bones. I think it was a Tibetan technique, where I would then invoke metta by joyfully giving away my flesh. Then using that mental state I move into a blissful state and go on from there.
This actually comes from the Pali Canon and predates Tibetan Buddhism by about 1500 years.
I read through the old advice in my thread and found a good reminder... to stop all doing and ride it on. The more I try to do, the more grasping I have. So I'm just going to shift myself continuously towards the light, the wholesome states, the positive things, the bliss, etc.
It sounds like you are having direct experience with a successful model.
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I increasingly find that "mindfulness of the body" seems to refer to understanding the body as non-self, and hence if applied in meditation, being withdrawn away from the 5 sensory gates. I tried doing a variation of an old meditation I did, contemplating the body as a corpse with flesh rotting away, leaving away the bones. I think it was a Tibetan technique, where I would then invoke metta by joyfully giving away my flesh. Then using that mental state I move into a blissful state and go on from there.
This actually comes from the Pali Canon and predates Tibetan Buddhism by about 1500 years.
It's such a great metaphor, if we actually think about it. What happens in that state? When one "joyfully gives away the flesh"? How quickly the aura can just come over you... I also choose to remind myself that "I am not this body". I've found it to be most effective in surrender.
Now this one is tricky but, I dont think it matters so much if they are indeed the words of the Buddha himself; only that the experiences described within them resonate true. One difficulty that I would have with some descriptions within coming from a student or another mystic, is the depth, accuracy, and clarity in which the Suttas themselves are able to describe the religious experience. Who ever wrote them, or rather, whoever understood the meaning intended to be conveyed, truly had an immensely intimate understanding of...well...everything.
Many times I have found the Suttas to be metaphorical and requiring some depth of inspection. So for those able to discern, we may find the meaning within them. I'm pretty sure that most of what is written was never intended to be taken at face-value. So as to the above, I do not understand the full meaning, but I do recognize a place within the progression, and that there may be more to the spectrum than I have seen.
Very true, thank you for that.
No problem at all ;D It is so helpful to give these matters serious thought, and these discussions have been a great medium for that.
With me, it can depend on a number of things; depth of meditation, "concentration", the level in which I am committed to surrender etc. If I am completely withdrawn, absolutely just had enough with everything, I will close my eye and see a golden light almost immediately. In these times, I will look to the light.
Other times it becomes progressive, and I may not see a golden light until some time into a meditation sit. I can no longer say what level of depth this occurs in because it seems the levels just blurr together anymore; but I can say that it will arise. In the meantime, you can attend to the visual charism in the static snow of the visual field.
However, with me, I only do this if the meditation moves to the third-eye. I know it has moved there when I feel it open; a pressure above the center of the brow, center for-head. When I do attend the visual charism, it feels as if lenses are in front of both eyes and as "intention" is sustained in expanding view, these lenses can roll towards the respective temple on either side of the head.
Theres quite a few things I havent figured out; but I have experienced applying intention to "piercing the darkness", and the golden light appearing. This was done by first applying intention to seeing through the third-eye. It's hard to explain, but basically I do what happens when the third-eye opens in meditation. I know the point prominently, though, so I'm not sure how well that will work for you. But, if you're able to move energy in your body, focus it center forhead and "look beyond" what is there, expand. I do this with my eyes physically closed. You probably wont see anything by doing this initially, but it should at the very least push the third-eye open for you.
I've also experienced this "blindness". I used to ask Jhananada about this alot. It does get clearer, and there really isnt anything you can do to help it right now other than returning to meditation. I found that as the third-eye would flare more in meditation, the clearer "seeing" became. Ya know, it's almost ironic that I was excited and asking questions about opening the third-eye because, it was blurry and unclear when I did see things, to finding that once it was open, it is now my physical eyes that struggle in this regard haha.
Good to know this is a common problem! haha
I'm starting to find the difference between how I perceive a dream through my internal vision and my flesh eyes, but I'm still trying to differentiate it. I realize it is when my eyes are slightly turned upwards, just like you said, but I am not aware of how much. It feels a little like a withdrawing away so that it becomes a purely mental image... as if there was a projected screen way behind the eyes.
This is a good way of looking at it. Another way that I have understood it is like that of a movie theater screen. The screen itself is very large, and if seated to close to it, it becomes hard to actually perceive it in its entirety. So, like I do with my physical eyes in this scenario, I lean back, and expand my vision.
There is a difference in my own perception from yours, as I've never really seen it as looking inwards, but rather looking very far outwards. Perhaps the GWV might give some clarity to this?
I tend to not open my eyes much during a meditation sit unless it is one that is in the dark. Daylight I've found to be somewhat of a distraction if I do.
But, the way youre describing this "strobing light" makes me think of the annihilating light. It comes with me in deep meditation sits, at the deepest surrender, just before the OOBE. It's where I can go unconscious before leaving the body. A bright light comes from the right to left and freaking deletes me, hits the "off switch". I am unsure if this is what you were meaning, though.
This thought leaves me thinking about how crazy that moment is, the visual field will vibrate, the blue fire melts away the fabric of whatever the hell it is...deleted...awake, immersed, feeling.
Haha I don't think I've reached that depth yet.
I've also thought to ask others about this, as I don't know at all what it is, or why it happens.
I experience this "mini-explosion" in the middle of the head, during meditation, as well. I always thought it was the sinus opening, but I do not know for sure. I do know that it happens every meditation sit, and is like you described it.
Okay, I thought I burst a vessel or something haha, it can be quite freaky when it happens to the physical body and is not a mental event.
I don't really know what this is either haha, only that it can happen.
A mystic attends to the light charism, so just attend to the light, not the shadow.
Thank you for this, I realize that it also seems to manifest, as if it was a reflection of my mental state.
This is interesting phenomena that you describe. It can either be small kundalini bursts, or spontaneous movements, which tend to occur when we learn to relax deeply, and learning to relax deeply is a skill those who meditate deeply develop.
Hmm, yes it does feel a little similar to some of the spontaneous kriya movements.
It may indeed be kriya, as it is somewhat similar. I guess a noticeable difference though would be that this "pop" will only happen once, where when kriya is being spontaneous, the same muscle may spaz out repeatedly.
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Bodhimind, I noticed something else that may be in connection with the "balloon popping" experience we talked about before. It comes around the third jhana, it seems as though some kind of secretion happens with me from the roof of the mouth and travels down the throat. It becomes extremely difficult to not swallow as there is a choking sensation, or burning, or something associated with it? Might this be something you experience as well? I only note this because while it is easy to re-establish the sit afterwards, it has tended to be un-avoidable in ignoring. Its semi painful. Oh I forgot to say, when it happens, it seem like there is this endless amount of saliva that forms haha. Weird, I know.
I also noted something else recently. You know how the Buddha has described being aware of internal organs and their functions, movements etc? Well as I lay in meditation before bed i became aware of a constant sound in one ear, like something consistently ruffleing my pillow case. I directed awareness to it to find that it was my pulse. As I maintained focus, I found that I was able to follow the entire pulse from the heart, to near the ear, and through the face. Not only could I feel it, I could see it as a visual image in my mind. Just found that interesting =).
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Bodhimind, I noticed something else that may be in connection with the "balloon popping" experience we talked about before. It comes around the third jhana, it seems as though some kind of secretion happens with me from the roof of the mouth and travels down the throat. It becomes extremely difficult to not swallow as there is a choking sensation, or burning, or something associated with it? Might this be something you experience as well? I only note this because while it is easy to re-establish the sit afterwards, it has tended to be un-avoidable in ignoring. Its semi painful. Oh I forgot to say, when it happens, it seem like there is this endless amount of saliva that forms haha. Weird, I know.
I also noted something else recently. You know how the Buddha has described being aware of internal organs and their functions, movements etc? Well as I lay in meditation before bed i became aware of a constant sound in one ear, like something consistently ruffleing my pillow case. I directed awareness to it to find that it was my pulse. As I maintained focus, I found that I was able to follow the entire pulse from the heart, to near the ear, and through the face. Not only could I feel it, I could see it as a visual image in my mind. Just found that interesting =).
I seem to have that "cool liquid" down the back of the throat as well. There's not much burning for mine though, so I am not sure if that is what you talk about. It feels like I need to swallow it, but then again if I leave it alone, it simply feels as if something cool is flowing at the back of my throat. I think this might be "ambrosia". Some yogi claim it to be the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) overflowing from the spine into the throat.
Once a doctor asked me if I was able to feel my own heartbeat and I said yes. Apparently 'normal people' aren't supposed to feel the heartbeat. Maybe we have simply just extended and trained our awareness to capture more of it.... I don't know haha. I've never felt it to the extent you do yet, though.
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I read on the GWV site that Jhanananda found "Clarifying the Natural State" by Dhagpo Tashi Namgyal to be valuable (rarely for a Vajra text), therefore I bought it to read more about it.
I recently had a heartbreaking experience with another contemplative, and I suddenly realized how "autonomous" the entire subconscious can be. The heart aches even though I clear my mind consciously. The joy and bliss rises, but along with it comes a sad pain that recognizes how impermanent all things are.
It actually aches physically, showing me how the mind and body intrinsically linked. I'm simply trying to observe how it goes, to see what it feels like, to watch how my perception contributes to it. Perhaps it is the reaping of a karmic seed from a past connection. I continuously turn myself away from the future and the past - to quit reminiscing, ruminating and expecting. Simply abiding in the present, being satisfied, grateful, and finding the bliss.
It still comes with that tinge though. Do you happen to have any experience with dealing with this? It is so true that attachment is the very source of suffering. It tells me that my cultivation is insufficient - my mindfulness was not guarding well - it had allowed my mind to fall into despair.
I also find that loving comes with a vulnerability, which also denotes a kind of letting go. Loving is not done, but what is left behind when all doing is let go. When we try to lie, steal or kill, we hinder the true expression.
I kind of understand what Lao Tzu means by:
"High virtue is not virtuous
Therefore it has virtue
Low virtue never loses virtue
Therefore it has no virtue
High virtue takes no contrived action
And acts without agenda
Low virtue takes contrived action
And acts with agenda
High benevolence takes contrived action
And acts without agenda
High righteousness takes contrived action
And acts with agenda
High etiquette takes contrived action
And upon encountering no response
Uses arms to pull others"
Isn't it because when we "try to be virtuous", that is already doing? It is not exactly a true expression that is birthed from letting go and listening to one's intuition. To give, without the thinking of giving - just like the nature of the sun is to shine, the nature of the trees to provide shade, the nature of all things to do what they do without "thinking" about it.
I can only hope it subsides, meanwhile I shall work on my mindfulness.
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I recently had a heartbreaking experience with another contemplative, and I suddenly realized how "autonomous" the entire subconscious can be. The heart aches even though I clear my mind consciously. The joy and bliss rises, but along with it comes a sad pain that recognizes how impermanent all things are.
It actually aches physically, showing me how the mind and body intrinsically linked. I'm simply trying to observe how it goes, to see what it feels like, to watch how my perception contributes to it. Perhaps it is the reaping of a karmic seed from a past connection. I continuously turn myself away from the future and the past - to quit reminiscing, ruminating and expecting. Simply abiding in the present, being satisfied, grateful, and finding the bliss.
It still comes with that tinge though. Do you happen to have any experience with dealing with this? It is so true that attachment is the very source of suffering. It tells me that my cultivation is insufficient - my mindfulness was not guarding well - it had allowed my mind to fall into despair.
We are still very prone to experiencing emotion, possibly even more so if we look at empathetic traits. The point that we can observe them tells us this much. Contrary to insufficient cultivation, I believe you have cultivated it precisely how you should. Not too long ago we talked about how even though a person may be enlightened, they still feel.
You said this person was also a contemplative? Perhaps there is a way to rationalize the situation by attempting to view the root of the problem? I feel like you have a good handle on the situation, so you'll know whats best in this regard.
Most friends might advise that when going through a tough time to do anything you could to distract yourself from it. However, this presents a unique sort of obstacle for a contemplative, as we tend to be aware of everything, and thus that sting is felt much more keenly. I have been married for a number of years, and with any marriage it has had it's ups and downs. There are times that my wife can get to me in the worst of ways, and it's these times that my heart will also physically ache. But for me, it has also provided a concrete reason for refuge. However, there are days I absolutely cannot meditate deeply due to being unable to find peace, and contentment. Love is certainly a doubled edge-sword, much like the charisms. I believe all we can do is observe it for it's beauty and endure it for it's pain.
A friend of mine said not too long ago that "Expectations are premeditated resentments". In a physical sense, I believe love to be composed primarily of expectation of reciprocation. I hate to dull it down in that way, as while going through the motions, it can be amazing. But, there really is no trick to a heart-ache, sadly. Time is the only thing I know that can cure them; one just becomes numb to the pain. But, never forget that you've got all that you need partner. It's all about someone else deserving it.
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Bodhimind, I noticed something else that may be in connection with the "balloon popping" experience we talked about before. It comes around the third jhana, it seems as though some kind of secretion happens with me from the roof of the mouth and travels down the throat. It becomes extremely difficult to not swallow as there is a choking sensation, or burning, or something associated with it? Might this be something you experience as well? I only note this because while it is easy to re-establish the sit afterwards, it has tended to be un-avoidable in ignoring. Its semi painful. Oh I forgot to say, when it happens, it seem like there is this endless amount of saliva that forms haha. Weird, I know.
I seem to have that "cool liquid" down the back of the throat as well. There's not much burning for mine though, so I am not sure if that is what you talk about. It feels like I need to swallow it, but then again if I leave it alone, it simply feels as if something cool is flowing at the back of my throat. I think this might be "ambrosia". Some yogi claim it to be the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) overflowing from the spine into the throat.
This could be a charismatic phenomena that is commonly reported in Indic religious literature. One of the terms I have heard is "amrita," which means 'nectar.' This would be a manifestation of the gastronomic charisms.
It could also just be post nasal drip. So, see where it goes.
I also noted something else recently. You know how the Buddha has described being aware of internal organs and their functions, movements etc? Well as I lay in meditation before bed i became aware of a constant sound in one ear, like something consistently ruffleing my pillow case. I directed awareness to it to find that it was my pulse. As I maintained focus, I found that I was able to follow the entire pulse from the heart, to near the ear, and through the face. Not only could I feel it, I could see it as a visual image in my mind. Just found that interesting =).
Once a doctor asked me if I was able to feel my own heartbeat and I said yes. Apparently 'normal people' aren't supposed to feel the heartbeat. Maybe we have simply just extended and trained our awareness to capture more of it.... I don't know haha. I've never felt it to the extent you do yet, though.
Yes, when I arrived at hearing the sound charism 24/7 it was preceded by hearing my heart and pulse beating loudly. At first I thought I was having a heart attack. I realized later that this is an aspect of the hypersensitivity that a mystic goes through on his/her journey through the charisms.
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You said this person was also a contemplative? Perhaps there is a way to rationalize the situation by attempting to view the root of the problem? I feel like you have a good handle on the situation, so you'll know whats best in this regard.
Most friends might advise that when going through a tough time to do anything you could to distract yourself from it. However, this presents a unique sort of obstacle for a contemplative, as we tend to be aware of everything, and thus that sting is felt much more keenly. I have been married for a number of years, and with any marriage it has had it's ups and downs. There are times that my wife can get to me in the worst of ways, and it's these times that my heart will also physically ache. But for me, it has also provided a concrete reason for refuge. However, there are days I absolutely cannot meditate deeply due to being unable to find peace, and contentment. Love is certainly a doubled edge-sword, much like the charisms. I believe all we can do is observe it for it's beauty and endure it for it's pain.
A friend of mine said not too long ago that "Expectations are premeditated resentments". In a physical sense, I believe love to be composed primarily of expectation of reciprocation. I hate to dull it down in that way, as while going through the motions, it can be amazing. But, there really is no trick to a heart-ache, sadly. Time is the only thing I know that can cure them; one just becomes numb to the pain. But, never forget that you've got all that you need partner. It's all about someone else deserving it.
I've tried, but I guess she has not internalized that emotions are not part of her. I read in a Taoist text that females had a stronger attachment to emotion as compared to males, who had a stronger attachment to lust. For now, I've been discussing with her the nature of retreating backwards away from sensory pleasure, to become more attuned to the four foundations of mindfulness. I'll have to see where it goes, and keep my ruminations out of the way.
I agree with that... I've become extremely aware of my body and that I feel the pain a little too intensely. One moment the heart feels like it has a gaping hole, then the next moment it feels as if it was being seared. Then sometimes I would feel as if my entire skin was burning... Sometimes I would feel my organs were heating up... Sometimes I feel the sweat oozing out of my pores... It's a little overwhelming sometimes and I try very hard to keep identity detached from the body. I think loving has allowed me to bare my heart more... it actually feels quite similar to the joy that arises in the first jhana.
I agree with you about reciprocation too. Often, I think that one partner does something with an expectation of reciprocation. And if the reciprocation doesn't come, the expectation drives pain and suffering. It's at its root... a form of craving. I'm trying to apply that practically... to seek bliss WITHIN, instead of attributing it to something outside. It's all too easy to succumb to that...
This could be a charismatic phenomena that is commonly reported in Indic religious literature. One of the terms I have heard is "amrita," which means 'nectar.' This would be a manifestation of the gastronomic charisms.
It could also just be post nasal drip. So, see where it goes.
One of my Hindu friends says he experiences this on a very frequent basis, while doing the Kechari mudra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khecar%C4%AB_mudr%C4%81) (tongue into nasal cavity). And he experiences full-body bliss and tingling too. So I think it might really be a charism. I was wondering if you knew anything about kechari mudra?
Yes, when I arrived at hearing the sound charism 24/7 it was preceded by hearing my heart and pulse beating loudly. At first I thought I was having a heart attack. I realized later that this is an aspect of the hypersensitivity that a mystic goes through on his/her journey through the charisms.
Sometimes this hypersensitivity can seem chaotic to me... I guess i need to learn how to maintain equanimity and seek solace in the charisms more deeply...
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These past few weeks have taught me quite a bit on how we tend to have subconscious thoughts that elude the conscious mind... and that the subconscious part of the mind can exert a very real effect on the body and mind. For example, although I may think of detachment, that is only surface-level, because I need to dive deep in and I suddenly realize that a bunch of attachments have sprouted up within. I'm not sure if I'm making sense here, but I feel like a puppet being driven by strings that I cannot see - and I need to be able to dive into these things and see them.
Lately I've been feeling very sensitive to the environment. For example, I've been leaving my concrete flat to walk in parks and forested areas as much as possible... to walk to places with lakes... To simply just be active around nature. I feel it to be extremely stifling within concrete walls. I want to breathe the fresh air, to feel the bare earth with my feet...
And I feel like in random periods of the day, I would get this feeling of "wind" entering my skin, as if I was a frog. Sometimes it can burn a little, sometimes it can feel very, very cooling. Sometimes I can feel mini-orgasms in localized body-parts. Just that other day, I had a full-blown orgasm in my entire left hand, which was extremely weird. I was wondering if this is also some kind of charism. I seem to get it randomly... neck areas, back, legs, especially the crown...
When I actively try to shift towards metta, away from unwholesome states, my heart feels like a ball of light, a bit like a mini-sun. But when I experience things like mini-heartbreaks, the heart feels as if it was squashed like a sponge. I also feel tremendous sadness sometimes when I am unable to get my message across to people.
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... I've become extremely aware of my body and that I feel the pain a little too intensely. One moment the heart feels like it has a gaping hole, then the next moment it feels as if it was being seared. Then sometimes I would feel as if my entire skin was burning... Sometimes I would feel my organs were heating up... Sometimes I feel the sweat oozing out of my pores... It's a little overwhelming sometimes and I try very hard to keep identity detached from the body.
During the period of my experience of the hypersensitive phase of the spiritual crisis I experienced much of what you described above. I found when I read the literature of other mystics, such as Teresa of Avila, they reported similar experiences. It can be quite difficult to get through this phase. If one were to go to a psychiatrist they would conclude that we have become delusional and need heavy medication, so in western culture most people in this phase just get heavily medicated, and thus never make it past this phase.
I think loving has allowed me to bare my heart more... it actually feels quite similar to the joy that arises in the first jhana.
Yes, I found the experience of bliss and joy is much like the experience of love; however, it is all too easy to go from love object to love object when one enters this phase and thus never pass through it. So, it takes quite some determination to stick with the sacred as one's object, and to avoid human relationships.
I agree with you about reciprocation too. Often, I think that one partner does something with an expectation of reciprocation. And if the reciprocation doesn't come, the expectation drives pain and suffering. It's at its root... a form of craving. I'm trying to apply that practically... to seek bliss WITHIN, instead of attributing it to something outside. It's all too easy to succumb to that...
This is a noble effort, and takes much determination, because romantic love is just so seductive a delusion.
One of my Hindu friends says he experiences this on a very frequent basis, while doing the Kechari mudra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khecar%C4%AB_mudr%C4%81) (tongue into nasal cavity). And he experiences full-body bliss and tingling too. So I think it might really be a charism. I was wondering if you knew anything about kechari mudra?
Yes, I am familiar with the kechari mudra, and many many other techniques. I keep trying to remind people that once the mind is still, and the charisms arise, one needs no technique other than to attend to the charisms with a still mind 24-7.
Sometimes this hypersensitivity can seem chaotic to me... I guess i need to learn how to maintain equanimity and seek solace in the charisms more deeply...
Yes.
These past few weeks have taught me quite a bit on how we tend to have subconscious thoughts that elude the conscious mind... and that the subconscious part of the mind can exert a very real effect on the body and mind. For example, although I may think of detachment, that is only surface-level, because I need to dive deep in and I suddenly realize that a bunch of attachments have sprouted up within. I'm not sure if I'm making sense here, but I feel like a puppet being driven by strings that I cannot see - and I need to be able to dive into these things and see them.
This is why we must ever be vigilant in self-awareness, and maintaining a still mind and fully aware of the charisms.
Lately I've been feeling very sensitive to the environment. For example, I've been leaving my concrete flat to walk in parks and forested areas as much as possible... to walk to places with lakes... To simply just be active around nature. I feel it to be extremely stifling within concrete walls. I want to breathe the fresh air, to feel the bare earth with my feet...
This is why I have chosen to live in nature as much as possible for the last 16 years.
And I feel like in random periods of the day, I would get this feeling of "wind" entering my skin, as if I was a frog. Sometimes it can burn a little, sometimes it can feel very, very cooling. Sometimes I can feel mini-orgasms in localized body-parts. Just that other day, I had a full-blown orgasm in my entire left hand, which was extremely weird. I was wondering if this is also some kind of charism. I seem to get it randomly... neck areas, back, legs, especially the crown...
These are the charisms. We mystics just turn our mind to them, and attend to them fully.
When I actively try to shift towards metta, away from unwholesome states, my heart feels like a ball of light, a bit like a mini-sun. But when I experience things like mini-heartbreaks, the heart feels as if it was squashed like a sponge. I also feel tremendous sadness sometimes when I am unable to get my message across to people.
Yes, when we attend to the world, then we feel the misery of the world; whereas, when we attend to the charisms we feel the bliss. So, just attend to the charisms. When misery arises, then turn your mind to the chairsms however you can.
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Recently I've realized that I am able to enter the non-dual state more quickly when I let go and surrender the 'boundary' of the body. It feels as if my body disappears and I'm merged with infinity. Then the intense heat comes again and I stop breathing for a while. Light fills my vision and my entire frame has a subtle tingling suffused with joy. I've also learnt that I've always been going about it in an outside-in manner. The "inside-out" approach, which is to feel and not try to do anything or think about it, seems to help me feel the charisms to a more intense degree.
I find intuition stronger than before. I get images in my head before they happen (such as a person talking to me, what activities the person is doing... etc). My friend asked me, "How do you know?!" I really have no idea. It's as if it's just there. It's there all along. In that moment, I just know. Would this be intuition?
I find my heart more vulnerable than ever. I cry sometimes when I see how others have suffered, particularly when I see what patients have gone through in my medical rotations. Then I wonder - what is the difference between empathy and sympathy? Empathy defined in some fields say it is about knowing what the other has gone through and continuing with a compassionate act to help out, while sympathy is simply feeling the same but not bothering to do anything about it.
Also, am I right to say that the collective unconscious is literally the collection of unconscious thoughtforms... perhaps what Carl Jung calls the universal archetypes?
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Recently I've realized that I am able to enter the non-dual state more quickly when I let go and surrender the 'boundary' of the body. It feels as if my body disappears and I'm merged with infinity. Then the intense heat comes again and I stop breathing for a while. Light fills my vision and my entire frame has a subtle tingling suffused with joy. I've also learnt that I've always been going about it in an outside-in manner. The "inside-out" approach, which is to feel and not try to do anything or think about it, seems to help me feel the charisms to a more intense degree.
It seems that you have been practising qi-gong which would have a faster progress. The intense heat is the result of qi-gong.
I find my heart more vulnerable than ever. I cry sometimes when I see how others have suffered, particularly when I see what patients have gone through in my medical rotations. Then I wonder - what is the difference between empathy and sympathy? Empathy defined in some fields say it is about knowing what the other has gone through and continuing with a compassionate act to help out, while sympathy is simply feeling the same but not bothering to do anything about it.
This seems like you are progressing very well. Most real mystic would go through that compassionate phase. I still cry now and then. Keep up the good work
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Recently I've realized that I am able to enter the non-dual state more quickly when I let go and surrender the 'boundary' of the body. It feels as if my body disappears and I'm merged with infinity. Then the intense heat comes again and I stop breathing for a while. Light fills my vision and my entire frame has a subtle tingling suffused with joy. I've also learnt that I've always been going about it in an outside-in manner. The "inside-out" approach, which is to feel and not try to do anything or think about it, seems to help me feel the charisms to a more intense degree.
It sounds like you are making progress, as the loss of a sense of self, and even the sense of a body, and the awareness of the non-physical phenomena that we call 'charism,' are characteristic of deep meditation states. As Sam stated, the heat, which he calls 'Qi,' and Hinduism tends to call 'kundalini' and Christianity tends to call 'holy spirit,' is a product of leading a contemplative life.
I find intuition stronger than before. I get images in my head before they happen (such as a person talking to me, what activities the person is doing... etc). My friend asked me, "How do you know?!" I really have no idea. It's as if it's just there. It's there all along. In that moment, I just know. Would this be intuition?
Intuition is one of the superior fruit of leading a contemplative life, so it is proof that your contemplative life is baring fruit.
I find my heart more vulnerable than ever. I cry sometimes when I see how others have suffered, particularly when I see what patients have gone through in my medical rotations. Then I wonder - what is the difference between empathy and sympathy? Empathy defined in some fields say it is about knowing what the other has gone through and continuing with a compassionate act to help out, while sympathy is simply feeling the same but not bothering to do anything about it.
I agree with Sam, sympathy and empathy and compassion are all the product of leading a fruitful contemplative life.
Also, am I right to say that the collective unconscious is literally the collection of unconscious thoughtforms... perhaps what Carl Jung calls the universal archetypes?
Yes, and no. I do not buy into the whole package of Carl Jung's hypotheses; however, I find when I am out of body there is certainly groups of beings who have a shared delusion that causes them to congregate in the immaterial domains, and if you violate their collective delusion, then they will rise up against you as if you are an intruder and attack you with tremendous violence.
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I find my heart more vulnerable than ever. I cry sometimes when I see how others have suffered, particularly when I see what patients have gone through in my medical rotations. Then I wonder - what is the difference between empathy and sympathy? Empathy defined in some fields say it is about knowing what the other has gone through and continuing with a compassionate act to help out, while sympathy is simply feeling the same but not bothering to do anything about it.
This is a very interesting thought, Bpdhimind. In the past, and I suppose without a great deal of thought, I always considered empathy to be the thoughts, feelings, or intentions of another to be known by me, without them meaning to tell them. Where-as sympathy was afforded after ones perception of an event was given and I have attempted to relate.
But I suppose they walk in tandem, where empathy is the "desire" to notice, and sympathy is the "desire" to relate. Hmm, interesting thought indeed.
It's good to hear from you Bodhimind. =)
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It seems that you have been practising qi-gong which would have a faster progress. The intense heat is the result of qi-gong.
Yes, I've been practising it alongside meditation. Haha
Yes, and no. I do not buy into the whole package of Carl Jung's hypotheses; however, I find when I am out of body there is certainly groups of beings who have a shared delusion that causes them to congregate in the immaterial domains, and if you violate their collective delusion, then they will rise up against you as if you are an intruder and attack you with tremendous violence.
That is strange indeed... Is there a reason why they might share a collective delusion?
This is a very interesting thought, Bpdhimind. In the past, and I suppose without a great deal of thought, I always considered empathy to be the thoughts, feelings, or intentions of another to be known by me, without them meaning to tell them. Where-as sympathy was afforded after ones perception of an event was given and I have attempted to relate.
But I suppose they walk in tandem, where empathy is the "desire" to notice, and sympathy is the "desire" to relate. Hmm, interesting thought indeed.
It's good to hear from you Bodhimind. =)
Haha I should try to post here more. I really like how you put empathy as noticing and sympathy as relating, it does make sense. I know one of the divine abodes is 'sympathetic joy', so I was wondering what exactly this meant, because I tend to just have a higher emphasis on loving-kindness/metta.
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That is strange indeed... Is there a reason why they might share a collective delusion?
People with similar delusions, and beliefs will be propelled into similar layers of the immaterial domains (AKA collective unconscious.) An example of this is the devout of mainstream religion subscribe to a common collective delusion. Curiously, it means that devout Muslim, Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus, etc. are likely to congregate in the same layer of the immaterial domains; where the cultural differences between one devout religious belief system, verses another, become just individual filters (AKA rose colored glasses) through which the individual perceives that layer of the immaterial domain, such that devout Muslim, Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus, who hate each other on the material domain, are likely to cohabitate on the immaterial domain without perceiving those differences.
Haha I should try to post here more.
It helps others negotiate the strange world of the charisms when we discuss our journey through them. So, it is useful for others to post here.
I really like how you put empathy as noticing and sympathy as relating, it does make sense. I know one of the divine abodes is 'sympathetic joy', so I was wondering what exactly this meant, because I tend to just have a higher emphasis on loving-kindness/metta.
I believe that bodhimind is using these terms more precisely; whereas, observing the feelings of others is more related to intuition, which the psychiatric community dismisses as delusion, because they do not accept anyone can actually observe the feelings of others.
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People with similar delusions, and beliefs will be propelled into similar layers of the immaterial domains (AKA collective unconscious.) An example of this is the devout of mainstream religion subscribe to a common collective delusion. Curiously, it means that devout Muslim, Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus, etc. are likely to congregate in the same layer of the immaterial domains; where the cultural differences between one devout religious belief system, verses another, become just individual filters (AKA rose colored glasses) through which the individual perceives that layer of the immaterial domain, such that devout Muslim, Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus, who hate each other on the material domain, are likely to cohabitate without perceiving those differences.
Thank you for the explanation, that makes a lot of sense.
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I think I have finally gotten a slight handle over how to view internal visions. I feel like I have to completely retreat from the sense of seeing and produce a mental picture, as if I took the backseat in a cinema instead of sitting in the front.
In a recent session, I saw a vision of Avalokitesvara/male Kuan Yin who turned into this huge orb of light that felt like a sun. I could feel the warmth and a brilliant golden light shone into my heart area. I felt immensely loved. I felt as if this sun was in the center of the universe. I'm not sure why I thought that way. After that I felt like the light expanded and I became one with the light, expanding past my body. There was a lot of bliss and I felt very equanimous. I could hear the auditory charisms. I'm not exactly sure what jhana this was, but I felt like I could meditate forever.
A mystic friend recently told me about how he started seeing "glitches in the matrix". He can read the energetic imprint/vibes of what people write or say and tell the overall feeling of the person. Do you find it to be true? Also, he is able to see the auras of people in color - such that he can see who has an intensely opened brow chakra, etc. He does follow a daily routine of intensely long meditation sits (currently in a retreat), that's why I believe him.
I personally find that I can sometimes see bluish color or whitish color patterns in the air, especially after a meditation session. As if everything is connected by some kind of grid... But they seem to radiate somewhat from the tips of my fingers. I can see a bubble of color around the heads of some people, but they're mostly whitish... grey even. I also feel drained when I'm around a lot of people... I don't really know why. I have this slight feeling of how people are feeling and their vibes... For example one person might be smiling but I can feel this dank heaviness, or another would be repulsive, etc.
I find a contemplation of death of my own body to be one of the staple practices I'm doing along with qigong, breath/kasina meditation and walking/standing meditation...
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I think I have finally gotten a slight handle over how to view internal visions. I feel like I have to completely retreat from the sense of seeing and produce a mental picture, as if I took the backseat in a cinema instead of sitting in the front.
I see no need to "produce a mental picture," when the path to deeper meditation states starts with stilling the mind; however, I can see how mental projection can lead to deeper states, when at some point we let go of the mental projection. Here the mental projection just becomes a meditation object, which is let go of at the 2nd jhana.
In a recent session, I saw a vision of Avalokitesvara/male Kuan Yin who turned into this huge orb of light that felt like a sun. I could feel the warmth and a brilliant golden light shone into my heart area. I felt immensely loved. I felt as if this sun was in the center of the universe. I'm not sure why I thought that way. After that I felt like the light expanded and I became one with the light, expanding past my body. There was a lot of bliss and I felt very equanimous. I could hear the auditory charisms. I'm not exactly sure what jhana this was, but I felt like I could meditate forever.
Certainly to feel immense love is what bliss is all about, and bliss is a factor of deep meditation (jhana). Feeling as if you could meditate forever is a characteristic of the 4th stage of deep meditation; and the brilliant golden light is also called a 'kasina' and is a characteristic of moving from the 4th stage of deep meditation to the fifth.
A mystic friend recently told me about how he started seeing "glitches in the matrix". He can read the energetic imprint/vibes of what people write or say and tell the overall feeling of the person. Do you find it to be true? Also, he is able to see the auras of people in color - such that he can see who has an intensely opened brow chakra, etc. He does follow a daily routine of intensely long meditation sits (currently in a retreat), that's why I believe him.
Certainly deep meditation developed a number of the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala) for me, and the case histories here show it is true for others. So, I see no reason why your friend could not be experiencing these phenomena. We can only know a tree by its fruit, which includes the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala), as well as freedom from addiction and neuroses.
I saw my first chakras and auras back in 1973. After about a year of deep meditation practice I took to doing aura readings to support myself; however, I found people do not generally want the truth. Instead they tend to pay a lot for some fantastic fiction. So, I gave up the readings, and found another livelihood.
I personally find that I can sometimes see bluish color or whitish color patterns in the air, especially after a meditation session. As if everything is connected by some kind of grid... But they seem to radiate somewhat from the tips of my fingers. I can see a bubble of color around the heads of some people, but they're mostly whitish... grey even.
This sounds like seeing auras and chakras. I found seeing auras and chakras is a characteristic of the visual charism.
I also feel drained when I'm around a lot of people... I don't really know why. I have this slight feeling of how people are feeling and their vibes... For example one person might be smiling but I can feel this dank heaviness, or another would be repulsive, etc.
Yes, most people are more identified with the lower planes, and so can be a drain for a mystic. This is why many mystics go off into the wilderness to preserve their sanity.
I find a contemplation of death of my own body to be one of the staple practices I'm doing along with qigong, breath/kasina meditation and walking/standing meditation...
I too have done these practices, and found them fruitful, so I am not surprised that you too find them fruitful.
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Glad for you bodhimind. You have improved tremendously. Keep it up.
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I was wondering about this...
Avalokitesvara or Kuan Yin is said to have been enlightened through the use of the "sound without sound", then it suddenly occurred to me that he/she might be talking about the auditory charism.
For example, in this Mahayana sutra (though I understand its lack of validity as compared to the Pali canon):
"I now submit to the World Honoured One
That all Buddhas in this world appear
To teach the most appropriate method
Which consists in using pervasive sound.
The state of Samadhi can be Realized by means of hearing.
Thus was Avalokiteśvara freed from suffering.
Hail to the Regarder of sound
Who, during aeons countless as Ganges' sand,
Entered as many Buddha lands to win
The power and comfort of his independence,
And bestow fearlessness upon all living beings.
O you who (have achieved) the sound profound,
The seer of sound, of sound the purifier,
Who, unfailing as the sound of ocean tides,
saves all beings in the world make them secure,
ensure their liberation and attainment of eternity.
Reverently I declare to the Tathagata what Avalokitesvara said:
When one dwells in quietude,
Rolls of drums from ten directions
Simultaneously are heard,
So hearing is complete and perfect,
The eyes cannot pierce a screen,
But neither can mouth nor nose,
Body only feels when it is touched.
Mind's thoughts are confused and unconnected,
(But) voice whether near or far, at all times can be heard.
The five other organs are not perfect,
But hearing really is pervasive.
The presence or absence of sound and voice
Is registered by ear as 'is' or 'is not'.
Absence of sound means nothing heard,
Not hearing devoid of nature.
Absence of sound is not the end of hearing,
And sound when present is not its beginning.
The faculty of hearing, beyond creation
And annihilation, truly is permanent
Even when isolated thoughts in a dream arise,
Though the thinking process stops, hearing does not end,
For the faculty of hearing is beyond
All thought, beyond both mind and body.
In this Saha world
Teaching is by voice.
Living beings who cognize not hearing's nature,
Follow sound to continue transmigrating.
Though Ananda memorized all that he had heard,
he could not avoid perverted thoughts.
This is to fall into samsara by clinging to sound;
Whilst reality is won against the worldly stream.
Listen, Ananda, listen closely,
In the name of Buddha I proclaim The Vajra King of Enlightenment,
The inconceivable understanding that illusions Are unreal,
the true Samadhi that begets all Buddhas.
You may hear of esoteric methods From Buddhas countless as the dust,
But if you cannot eradicate Desire, to hear much causes errors.
To hear your very Self, why not turn backward
That faculty employed to hear Buddha's words,
Hearing is not of itself, But owes its name to sound.
Freed from sound by turning hearing backwards,
What do you call that which is disengaged
When one sense organ has to its source returned,
All the six senses thereby are liberated.
Seeing and hearing are like optical illusions,
Just as all three worlds resemble flowers in the sky.
With hearing disengaged, the illusory organ vanishes;
With objects eradicated, perfectly pure is Bodhi
In utter purity, the bright light pervades all,
With its shining stillness enfolding the great void.
All worldly things, when closely looked at,
Are but illusions seen in dreams.
Dream-like was the Matatigi maiden: How could she keep your body with her?
Like a clever showman
Presenting a puppet play,
Though movements are many,
There is but one controller.
When that control is stopped,
Figures show no nature.
Likewise are the six organs,
Derived from one alaya
Which divides into six unions.
If one of these returns to source,
All six functions are ended.
With all infection ended,
Bodhi is then realized.
Any defiling remnant requires further study,
Whereas full enlightenment is the Tathagata.
Ananda and all you who listen here,
Should inward turn your faculty
The Enlightened and World Honoured One Has asked about the best expedients
For those in the Dharma ending age
Who wish from samsara to escape In their search for Nirvana's heart.
It is best to contemplate on worldly sound:
All other methods are expedients
Used by Buddha in particular cases
To keep disciples from occasional trouble.
They are not good for indiscriminate practice
By men of different types.
I salute the Tathagata Store
Which is beyond the worldly stream.
Blessed be coming generations
So that they have (abiding) faith In this easy expedient .
'Tis good for teaching ‚Ananda
And those of the Dharma ending age
Who should use the hearing organ
Which surpasses all others
And with the True Mind accords."
And other sources someone recommended me that I plan to look through:
- http://www.cultureunplugged.com/play/7845/Union-of-Sound-and-Emptiness
- http://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/inner-listening/
I find so much solace taking refuge in that unstruck sound charism, it brings joyful shivers.
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I was wondering about this...
Avalokitesvara or Kuan Yin is said to have been enlightened through the use of the "sound without sound", then it suddenly occurred to me that he/she might be talking about the auditory charism.
For example, in this Mahayana sutra (though I understand its lack of validity as compared to the Pali canon):
Yes, it is indeed possible that Avalokitesvara (aka Kuan Yin) had been enlightened through the use of the "sound without sound," which surely seems to be talking about the auditory charism. Or, someone else who invoked Avalokitesvara (aka Kuan Yin), and wrote the sutra in question using pseudepigraphy.
"I now submit to the World Honoured One
That all Buddhas in this world appear
To teach the most appropriate method
This will surely be true of any genuinely enlightened person who would otherwise be called a 'Buddha.' This would include all of the major mystics, whom I quote from regularly: Siddhartha Gautama, Patanjali, Jesus, Rumi, Kabir, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, and so many others. We know a tree by its fruit, and that fruit is the superior fruit of attainment, called 'maha-phala' in the suttas.
Which consists in using pervasive sound.
The state of Samadhi can be Realized by means of hearing.
Yes, or course, but we must keep in mind that there are many charisms (aka superior fruit (maha-phala)).
Thus was Avalokiteśvara freed from suffering.
Being freed from suffering is one of the defining qualities of one who is enlightened.
O you who (have achieved) the sound profound,
The seer of sound, of sound the purifier,
Who, unfailing as the sound of ocean tides,
saves all beings in the world make them secure,
ensure their liberation and attainment of eternity.
In my experience, and in our case histories we find the charism of sound can sound at limes like the waves of the ocean, or flowing water, or a water fall, or rain.
Reverently I declare to the Tathagata what Avalokitesvara said:
When one dwells in quietude,
Rolls of drums from ten directions
Simultaneously are heard,
So hearing is complete and perfect,
Yes, in my experience, and the GWV case histories, the stilling of the mind is the gateway to the charisms, and the charismatic sound is one of those charisms, and at times it can also sound like roaring water falls, or Rolls of drums, which can seem to come from all directions, or from inside the center of our head.
Absence of sound means nothing heard,
Not hearing devoid of nature.
Absence of sound is not the end of hearing,
And sound when present is not its beginning.
The faculty of hearing, beyond creation
And annihilation, truly is permanent
Even when isolated thoughts in a dream arise,
Though the thinking process stops, hearing does not end,
For the faculty of hearing is beyond
All thought, beyond both mind and body.
Another way of saying this is the charismatic sensations are not the product of sensory stimulation.
And other sources someone recommended me that I plan to look through:
- Union of Sound and Emptiness (http://www.cultureunplugged.com/play/7845/Union-of-Sound-and-Emptiness)
- Inner Listening (http://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/inner-listening/) by Ajahn Amaro
I find so much solace taking refuge in that unstruck sound charism, it brings joyful shivers.
Joyful shivers certainly can be a manifestation of the states of deep meditation, which are called, "jhana" in the suttas.
Perhaps the video and book might be a clear description of the sound charism, which is experienced in deep meditation (jhana). However, we have to keep in mind that "we know a tree by its fruit." So, does this video and book represent all of the charisms or just one? And are the authors known for recognizing the attainments of others? If not, then we have to question the validity of their movies and books; because, too often priests of the religions of the world are just interested in securing a money-stream for themselves, and could care less for the attainments of others. A truly enlightened one validates the attainments (maha-phala) of other contemplatives.
So, we must ask ourselves, "how has Ajahn Amaro, or the priest in the video, participated in the community of people who meditate deeply today?" For instance, "Have they become friends of the GWV?"
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Just a bit of insight for me...
I've always had a sense of "presence"... of Spirit... and we seem to have habituated ourselves to bind to the four references of mindfulness of thoughts, feelings, body and mind, as if it was a drug or a hypnosis. I was deluded to think that our 5 senses and our ever-changing states were the "I"...
I now see how allowing identification as self to the four cornerstones is a form of hypnosis and how turning away from them towards spirit is retraining and breaking the habit of delusion - therefore why the Noble Eightfold Path is a continuous lifestyle until death. The key is not in its intellectual understanding but the training of turning towards spirit continuously.
Remaining in spirit feels vibrant with joy. Nothing else is needed, nothing else can be found within it, it is the root of all things that we see, feel, hear, perceive or know. There's not even an "it" because in it everything is forgotten. There's no name, no characteristic, even the word "void" fails to describe it utterly.
Therefore, to be detached means to reside within the presence and not be entangled along with the consistently shifting impermanence of what is perceived. To be diligent and "strive on", is to continuously turn away from the things that snag on and strengthen fetters and become one with spirit.
Whatever we see right now is akin to like a dream, because when the body dies, the presence, the intelligence does not, as the root of everything else...
The key of not dwelling and letting go, is in fact a turning towards of spirit. A reversal of the hypnosis of identification towards the false self... Which culminates in the root of this intelligence that permeates through everything. There is no "self", or rather, not in the sense of "perceiving" a self...
This habit of clinging from ignorance seems to be what had caused a continuous rebirth...
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Very good insight, Bodhimind. And, this "habit of clinging" is the craving and covetousness that the mystics of the past referred to, which according to the 4 Noble Truths is the cause of "suffering" (dhukkha).
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So if we stop this craving... will there no longer be rebirth?
On a separate note, I realize more and more... that people I talk to continue to identify themselves from being the body. They think they are their names, or whatever they have constructed within their minds. I try to help them see but sometimes I'm met with their huge skepticism, so I then give up.
I feel like nothing else in life matters anymore. I just need to get done with this life. And I wish to cut my fetters. But first I need to finish my worldly responsibilities.
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On a separate note, I realize more and more... that people I talk to continue to identify themselves from being the body. They think they are their names, or whatever they have constructed within their minds. I try to help them see but sometimes I'm met with their huge skepticism, so I then give up.
I feel like nothing else in life matters anymore. I just need to get done with this life. And I wish to cut my fetters. But first I need to finish my worldly responsibilities.
Ugh I have fallen into the same gutter. Purpose in my life has dwindled to just living my bodies sentence and trying to be kind and loving to those with hearts sensitive enough to feel the pain of living here. Otherwise I'm just trying to dive as deep in the immaterial as I can before I die. It is still very hard at times to even stay a part of this world, suicide looms over me often. But I come back to "I'm going to die anyway" and the only way to possibly not come back to this life involves me living and meditating.
Best wishes bodhimind,
Rougeleader
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So if we stop this craving... will there no longer be rebirth?
Well, that is the hypothesis at work in Buddhism and Hinduism; however, that does not explain why I am here. After all, if my previous lifetime recollects are true, then I have been a mystic with significant attainment in many lifetimes prior to this one.
I propose that the genuine mystics of the world come back for the benefit of others, which makes life in a body no less miserable.
On a separate note, I realize more and more... that people I talk to continue to identify themselves from being the body. They think they are their names, or whatever they have constructed within their minds. I try to help them see but sometimes I'm met with their huge skepticism, so I then give up.
I feel like nothing else in life matters anymore. I just need to get done with this life. And I wish to cut my fetters. But first I need to finish my worldly responsibilities.
Yes, bodhimind and rougeleader115, life sucks and then you die, regardless of how much attainment that one has. However, one who does not suffer from clinging, craving, attachment, and covetousness, does not dwell upon the misery of life. A true mystic will keep the mind still in every moment, except when it is needed as a pocket calculator. Otherwise one keeps one's attention upon the charisms, which make this miserable life not just tolerable, but blissful.
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I'm starting to think that...Sol = our Sun might be what the old referred to as the Soul.
Could it be that all the stars in the universe are a reflection of this one... thing? Or perhaps that all things in existence are within this One? I don't know why but I feel as if there are greater and greater stars, as if they were entities or groups of existences... Am I deluded? haha
I'm starting to feel like my head has this constant shower... except that it's not water but this very powerful blissfulness... it comes from the crown and then slowly goes downwards.
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It sounds like your contemplative life is paying off.
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Is life just a passing memory? Past lives are just another memory, so will this life. They're all just the same things happening again and again. I don't understand why we have to go through the same thing again and again.
I nowadays simply seek solace in the blissfulness of spirit. It fills with me with huge calm. The outside world is like a stormy ocean, but my inner self struggles to keep still like a submarine fighting its currents.
Nowadays, I am no longer motivated by the vice of lust - I see no point in it and would much rather dwell in the bliss of the jhanas, however, my partner tends to want it, and I do it out of compassion. I feel like it takes out a chunk of me and makes me feel 'heavy'.
I am tired of all the dividing out there. My identity, my pride, my rights, my equality, my this, my that... My god, it feels like a mad-house out there, with everyone trying to grab more "identity" for themselves. These days you can see all kinds of pride parades going around - homosexual rights, ginger rights, women's rights, etc. What foolishness. Can't they see that the more they exclude, the more they exacerbate the problem? If only they could just turn inwards into themselves and find spirit within, what a better world this would be. It's starting to feel like wishful thinking, because a huge chunk of them can't even understand what it means to still the monkey-mind for a bit.
I love nature a lot. If I could, I could sit out there in a mountain for ages without going back into "civilization". I would rather have the company of the wild animals than wild humans.
It hurts me when I see how modern civilization destroys nature and the Earth. Countries building dams that destroy eco-systems, even global-warming itself causing worldwide issues for all the poor beings, etc. And all humans care about is just "my this, my that". And to rise against their ideologies only bring problems, because there are so many of them, and only one of you. You get ostracized for being an "abnormality", simply because you see the world differently from them.
Well, if this life is just a dream, sometimes I wonder if I care too much about something that I'd only see for a few more years. Should I care about the contents of an illusion?
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Is life just a passing memory? Past lives are just another memory, so will this life. They're all just the same things happening again and again. I don't understand why we have to go through the same thing again and again.
We keep having to repeat the same nonsense until we learn the lesson.
I nowadays simply seek solace in the blissfulness of spirit. It fills with me with huge calm. The outside world is like a stormy ocean, but my inner self struggles to keep still like a submarine fighting its currents.
Nowadays, I am no longer motivated by the vice of lust - I see no point in it and would much rather dwell in the bliss of the jhanas, however, my partner tends to want it, and I do it out of compassion. I feel like it takes out a chunk of me and makes me feel 'heavy'.
I am tired of all the dividing out there. My identity, my pride, my rights, my equality, my this, my that... My god, it feels like a mad-house out there, with everyone trying to grab more "identity" for themselves. These days you can see all kinds of pride parades going around - homosexual rights, ginger rights, women's rights, etc. What foolishness. Can't they see that the more they exclude, the more they exacerbate the problem? If only they could just turn inwards into themselves and find spirit within, what a better world this would be. It's starting to feel like wishful thinking, because a huge chunk of them can't even understand what it means to still the monkey-mind for a bit.
I love nature a lot. If I could, I could sit out there in a mountain for ages without going back into "civilization". I would rather have the company of the wild animals than wild humans.
It hurts me when I see how modern civilization destroys nature and the Earth. Countries building dams that destroy eco-systems, even global-warming itself causing worldwide issues for all the poor beings, etc. And all humans care about is just "my this, my that". And to rise against their ideologies only bring problems, because there are so many of them, and only one of you. You get ostracized for being an "abnormality", simply because you see the world differently from them.
Well, if this life is just a dream, sometimes I wonder if I care too much about something that I'd only see for a few more years. Should I care about the contents of an illusion?
It sounds like you are making excellent progress in your meditation practice.
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Hello Bodhimind,
I'm a newbie so bear with me. I began my meditation career in a crisis. I felt trapped in my life and with no way out. To me, nirvana was extinction and the solution, but I knew I was incapable of ever understanding the Buddha's teachings. I decided to turn towards the existence I hated and embrace it with love. It was like being in a house consumed by flames and the only way out was to move into the fire. I decided to love and empathize with everything, to try and see things from their points of view. I felt like a child cuddling with rattlesnakes. I began to feel alive again. I dabbled in Samadhi without knowing it. I thought I was goofing off. I kept at it and felt like I was being baptized by the holy spirit. In a moment of rigorous investigation I saw the world as a mental projection and the aspects of nature that make up the world are innocent. I believe that this innocence is what the Buddha called Nirvana. If we don't tell the world its bad then it isn't. This is a really tall order for us because we are really hardwired to opinionate. The Buddha's path will lead us to a familiar place from childhood. It was quite a surprise to me.
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...I decided to love and empathize with everything, to try and see things from their points of view. I felt like a child cuddling with rattlesnakes. I began to feel alive again. I dabbled in Samadhi without knowing it. I thought I was goofing off. I kept at it and felt like I was being baptized by the holy spirit. In a moment of rigorous investigation I saw the world as a mental projection and the aspects of nature that make up the world are innocent...
You were being "baptized by the holy spirit." Congratulations. Now, just keep it going.
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Is the collective consciousness/knowing the intuitive stream?
I recently heard of an experience of channeling a message that brought tears to a stranger's eyes, which apparently came from her father. It's so strange, so strange...
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Also, I recently befriended another mystic who told me about how he would have sights of futuristic technological things while going into deeper absorption states. He doesn't experience joy, but he experiences strong vibrations throughout his body. He told me that someone he knew said: Past the cognition aggregate, beings had abilities to create worlds through their minds. Is that true? I have the impression that that would be "Brahma" instead of true annihilation.
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Is the collective consciousness/knowing the intuitive stream?
I recently heard of an experience of channeling a message that brought tears to a stranger's eyes, which apparently came from her father. It's so strange, so strange...
It has been my experience that developing awareness of the "collective consciousness" is a product of developing the art and skill of deep meditation.
Also, I recently befriended another mystic who told me about how he would have sights of futuristic technological things while going into deeper absorption states. He doesn't experience joy, but he experiences strong vibrations throughout his body. He told me that someone he knew said: Past the cognition aggregate, beings had abilities to create worlds through their minds. Is that true? I have the impression that that would be "Brahma" instead of true annihilation.
Experiencing "strong vibrations" throughout the body during meditation is evidence of deep meditation. Often we experience many phenomena during deep meditation. These phenomena become blissful, when we accept that these experiences are the product of communing directly with the spiritual dimension.
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Does anyone else find that certain mantras invoke feelings of joy within themselves too? I find that when I hear some mantras, such as "om mani padme hum", it seems to bring out that familiar blissfulness I experience when I go into jhana. Shivers and orgasms up my spine and throughout my body. Or maybe because I've become more 'sensitive'?
I find that I'm able to "feel" the vibes of people... Like if they're having really negative moods, I can feel them... Or if someone is in poor health, I can feel that 'heaviness'... I like the vibes of some people, and then they turn out to be people who follow their joyfulness/bliss, regardless of whatever religion they are in.
I realize that all there is right now is a projection. So if i think of a past, that's a projection from current data - so is the future. They're all projections of mind to go 'somewhere'. If I'm doing anything else but just remaining in the blissfulness of the present, I'm projecting something and trying to "be" something.
As long as I stay silent and stop grasping to anything - no notion of self, no notion of this or that, no perception of pain or pleasure, no dwelling on this or that state... just nothing... then I find myself helplessly bathing in the bliss of spirit and anchored in that light. I feel like there's nothing else I want to do sometimes, but just remain right there, because there is no greater bliss than being spirit.
All of these life's activities... I don't understand... Do I need to finish them? Is that what karma is... a momentum of previous actions? Or a momentum of the conditions that nature has... evolving patterns of cause and effect?
It's so uncanny how spirit works through all of us and in this projection of an 'individuality', it's more like a hologram...
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Does anyone else find that certain mantras invoke feelings of joy within themselves too? I find that when I hear some mantras, such as "om mani padme hum", it seems to bring out that familiar blissfulness I experience when I go into jhana. Shivers and orgasms up my spine and throughout my body. Or maybe because I've become more 'sensitive'?
Often we find religious paraphernalia, activities, places and concepts trigger blissful feelings; and we recognize here those blissful feelings are the first jhana. It is my premise that it is not the paraphernalia, activities, places concepts that are the trigger for blissful feelings, but what we bring to the experience that is that trigger.
So, if we find being in a temple, or thinking of a religious concept, or engaging in a religious activity makes us feel blissful feelings, then it is what we bring to that experience in an emotional response. This is what I call "investing the religious experience." It is useful to do so, or otherwise the many strange phenomena that is associated with the 8 stages of the religious experience become nothing more than a collection of strange and odd phenomena.
I find that I'm able to "feel" the vibes of people... Like if they're having really negative moods, I can feel them... Or if someone is in poor health, I can feel that 'heaviness'... I like the vibes of some people, and then they turn out to be people who follow their joyfulness/bliss, regardless of whatever religion they are in.
This is part of the insight that people acquire from developing deep meditation.
I realize that all there is right now is a projection. So if i think of a past, that's a projection from current data - so is the future. They're all projections of mind to go 'somewhere'. If I'm doing anything else but just remaining in the blissfulness of the present, I'm projecting something and trying to "be" something.
As long as I stay silent and stop grasping to anything - no notion of self, no notion of this or that, no perception of pain or pleasure, no dwelling on this or that state... just nothing... then I find myself helplessly bathing in the bliss of spirit and anchored in that light. I feel like there's nothing else I want to do sometimes, but just remain right there, because there is no greater bliss than being spirit.
Yes, living in the present, with a still mind, is bringing mindful self-awareness to the contemplative life in every moment. We here find doing so results in saturation in the samadhi state, which results in liberation from our neuroses, and addictions.
All of these life's activities... I don't understand... Do I need to finish them? Is that what karma is... a momentum of previous actions? Or a momentum of the conditions that nature has... evolving patterns of cause and effect?
It's so uncanny how spirit works through all of us and in this projection of an 'individuality', it's more like a hologram...
It is true that the sense of self begins to diminish as we develop deep meditation, and allow it to saturate our life.
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I have certain association that used to bring me up to pure rapture. Others have also reported to me about music that they like that brings it up as well. The mantra, music and others are basically empty but the association itself that brings the joy.
When you reached the sensitive stage, that is what I call the empathy stage, sometimes can get overloaded as it's been reported by Naman. I tend to avoid people because of that.
I realize that all there is right now is a projection. So if i think of a past, that's a projection from current data - so is the future. They're all projections of mind to go 'somewhere'. If I'm doing anything else but just remaining in the blissfulness of the present, I'm projecting something and trying to "be" something.
Don't think too much about it, everything will be clear in time.
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Thank you for all the advice, been keeping up at my practice.
When I breathe, I feel as if every single cell is breathing itself. I notice now that when I take a breath in, it doesn't feel simply that the breath enters the nostril and then floods into the lower torso. Instead, it feels as if the breath is entering through the various pores of the body. Every single cell seems to have its own 'knowingness'.
The "knowing" isn't from the brain, it is non-local and omnipresent. So each cell seems aware of its own breath, just as I am aware of my own breath. But the breath itself is just a tool to watch, so that the mental chatter dies away and goes into communion with the breath.
The joy comes together with the breath, filling up the body through the breath. Sometimes it goes all the way to the soles of the feet, sometimes to the toes, sometimes only halfway, etc. As the waves intensify, the bliss spread to the entire body.
Eventually the sense of the body itself completely disappears. :)
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Congratulations, bodhimind, it sounds like you are making excellent progress into the 3rd to 4th jhana.
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I realized a trend is that whenever I get into the deep state of utter bliss, my breath always thins out to nearly being imperceptible. I feel as if my skin is 'sucking in' air (like a frog), and my navel becomes warm. The joy radiates from the heart and extends outwards to fill the entire body, and it feels connected with the breath itself. The bliss also extends along with it and the tingling intensifies, until it's seen as 'coarse' and then there is a shift into a mind without surfacing thoughts (tranquility), where then again there is another shift into equanimity where external noises no longer affect me (or can't be heard), and then lastly the body-sense disappears, and there is no longer an aversion or clinging, and everything is just let go of. I don't feel my body, but the light orb nimitta doesn't seem to stay.
I find it strange, because when I shift my focus down, the auditory charism seems to dull, while if I shift it upwards, the charism seems to intensify, which makes me wonder if it is somehow associated with the head area. I know the ringing leads to the light though, or the 'star' nimitta. Which makes me wonder... the suttas say that the Buddha got enlightened when he saw the 'morning star'. Is it possible that he literally saw this nimitta? Or maybe I'm thinking too much.
Also, I realised that some practitioners of "vipasanya" (or more accurately sati) go into the dark night of the soul, and I was thinking - is it because they did not develop the bliss of the jhanas to counteract the unwholesome state? Or would you still go through it even if you have the jhanas? I ask because my own dark night seemed a little minimal, I only had just one sleepless night with tons of visions of people/luminous charism/etc. Maybe I haven't reached the real dark night?
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I realized a trend is that whenever I get into the deep state of utter bliss, my breath always thins out to nearly being imperceptible. I feel as if my skin is 'sucking in' air (like a frog), and my navel becomes warm. The joy radiates from the heart and extends outwards to fill the entire body, and it feels connected with the breath itself. The bliss also extends along with it and the tingling intensifies, until it's seen as 'coarse' and then there is a shift into a mind without surfacing thoughts (tranquility), where then again there is another shift into equanimity where external noises no longer affect me (or can't be heard), and then lastly the body-sense disappears, and there is no longer an aversion or clinging, and everything is just let go of. I don't feel my body, but the light orb nimitta doesn't seem to stay.
This all suggests that you are meditating consistently at the level of the 4th jhana.
I find it strange, because when I shift my focus down, the auditory charism seems to dull, while if I shift it upwards, the charism seems to intensify, which makes me wonder if it is somehow associated with the head area.
I find there is definitely an orientation of up for deeper levels of bliss, joy and ecstasy. We could map it like this on the chakra list. This suggests that if one is going to have an orientation toward one's focus during meditation, then it should be up. And, it has been indeed for me.
I know the ringing leads to the light though, or the 'star' nimitta. Which makes me wonder... the suttas say that the Buddha got enlightened when he saw the 'morning star'. Is it possible that he literally saw this nimitta? Or maybe I'm thinking too much.
I do not recall a reference to the 'morning star' in any sutta that describes Siddhartha Gautama's night of enlightenment (MN26 & 36). However, the light orb aka light nimitta, could be called the 'morning star.' I just do not recall the suttas making this connection.
Also, I realised that some practitioners of "vipasanya" (or more accurately sati) go into the dark night of the soul, and I was thinking - is it because they did not develop the bliss of the jhanas to counteract the unwholesome state? Or would you still go through it even if you have the jhanas? I ask because my own dark night seemed a little minimal, I only had just one sleepless night with tons of visions of people/luminous charism/etc. Maybe I haven't reached the real dark night?
In my experience there are many spiritual crises. Some people may not have them. The bliss factor may account for the difference. It seems reasonable.
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I have been experimenting with the auditory charism...
I realized that it is like a 'black void'... Firstly, whatever sounds that come to us just disappear, as if it was absorbed by a sponge. Whatever curses, compliments, slanders, etc - they appear the same - just sounds that disappear on reaching the 'hearer'.
I discern that it is loud or soft, ill-intended or well-intended, in a certain pitch, near or far, etc. But the form of the sound itself doesn't really matter, since they all get 'absorbed' and disappear.
Then eventually it becomes deeper - the sounds outside disappear and we enter absorption. Then the sounds of the blood moving, heart-beating, grinding of the organs appear.
Then the sounds of the galaxy and the universe appear.
And all along there is this high-pitched sound that follows.
The key I found, and pondered so long... was how to ride the sound like a horse, or 'dance with it' as Jhanananda said. I realized it was not straining to try to focus on it or place a location on it. Instead, it was like... letting ourselves 'merge' with the sound - hearer and the heard merges. Eventually we no longer hear the outside sounds, nor the inside sounds - perhaps the charism left, that seems to come like ocean tides and waves.
But there is still the subtle sense of self...
Because there was a progression, the self felt like it needed to establish a presence. But then there is no 'self' to actually grasp hold of, simply because there is no reaction - pure equanimity and non-dualness. Neither self nor non-self - it was neither here or there or in-between.
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Congratulations, Bodhimind. It sounds like you are progressing into equanimity just fine.
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As someone who hears sounds while meditating this was very useful.
Jefferey was the first person who suggested that when I hear things, I should drop the breath and focus on the white noise. This has made meditation much more pleasant and easier.
It's nice to hear what the next stages will be. Very encouraging.
Thanks much, Bodhimind. Your contributions have been quite helpful. I'm going to continue to study your last post.
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Latest through anapana-sati.
I've just realised that sati does not mean focusing or 'attention', but more of a form of peripheral awareness. The absorption that occurs is not on the 'breath' itself, which comes and goes, gives birth and dies, but what which is always there - the deathless awareness that is not part of cognition itself. This awareness is not 'absorbed' on anything... I feel as if it was absorbed on itself, if that makes any sense... and everything else is seen as 'coarse'.
Pure equanimity, with no sense of body. I felt immense energy enter my body, but strangely I could not feel the boundaries of the flesh-body either. It was just filling and filling, as if I was receiving blessings, or the visitation of the Holy Spirit. That has to be real baptism, not the made-up water-bathing ritual Christians convince themselves is.
It was very strange, because I no longer had to go through all that itching, hypersensitivity stuff in Jhana 2. It was smooth and extremely immense. My breath seemed to become as faint as if I was breathing light itself, with no sense of tactile breath, but I couldn't help noticing that my body seemed to have this 'pumping' action before the sense of it completely disappeared later on.
This was so powerful that even 15 minutes was enough for me to get entirely absorbed within it. I feel as if I were to surrender completely I would cry in a beautiful way.
All of these things that come and go aren't it... They're all transformations of the mind. When the mind shifts perception by even a little bit, one tiny thought can completely change the entire perception-field.
I had a half-lucid dream where I was inside a dark realm, filled with darkness and blackness. I remembered that Jhanananda simply said that we had to turn towards the light, and so I did. It was extremely strange, because I just uttered mentally a word "Jesus christ" and his 'figure' manifested with a brilliant light, completely obscuring the entire realm and my perception was replaced with one with an expanse of brilliant light. Coincidentally, that was on Easter Night, and I had no idea what Easter meant until I researched later, so perhaps I might have been in touch with the collective consciousness, or this is one of those synchronicities. I chuckled a little, because he appeared just like the pictures of what I've seen of him, so it is quite clear that these images are formed inside my mind and my mind is what constructs these images, interpreting the phenomena with a certain story.
So i definitely notice that these mental-sankharas... or mental karmic-formations... are kind of like impressions within the subconscious mind, itching to come up at you during periods where lucidity is dimmed. When I sleep and do not maintain lucidity, the mind goes into auto-pilot mode, letting these mental energies go reckless.
I also realised that this is the source of the mental 'dark-night'. The mind is going into dullness and not filled with the brahmaviharas that let it be 'energised' or 'bright' (aka lucid enough). The dark night occurs because the subconscious tendencies are allowed to go wild due to the lack of lucidity. We are cultivating the lucid, bright, clear aspect of the mind, and not the dream-like unconscious... therefore the Buddha taught us to skilfully abide in wholesome mind states over unwholesomeness. AND... also why conduct is so important.
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Latest through anapana-sati.
I've just realised that sati does not mean focusing or 'attention', but more of a form of peripheral awareness. The absorption that occurs is not on the 'breath' itself, which comes and goes, gives birth and dies, but what which is always there - the deathless awareness that is not part of cognition itself. This awareness is not 'absorbed' on anything... I feel as if it was absorbed on itself, if that makes any sense... and everything else is seen as 'coarse'.
I agree with this. What we are doing when we practice meditation that leads to depth is we are developing bare awareness; or consciousness without an object.
Pure equanimity, with no sense of body. I felt immense energy enter my body, but strangely I could not feel the boundaries of the flesh-body either. It was just filling and filling, as if I was receiving blessings, or the visitation of the Holy Spirit. That has to be real baptism, not the made-up water-bathing ritual Christians convince themselves is.
I agree here. One of the characteristics of depth in meditation is the arising of energy.
It was very strange, because I no longer had to go through all that itching, hypersensitivity stuff in Jhana 2. It was smooth and extremely immense. My breath seemed to become as faint as if I was breathing light itself, with no sense of tactile breath, but I couldn't help noticing that my body seemed to have this 'pumping' action before the sense of it completely disappeared later on.
This was so powerful that even 15 minutes was enough for me to get entirely absorbed within it. I feel as if I were to surrender completely I would cry in a beautiful way.
This is the experience of deep meditation, which Siddharta Gautama called "jhana."
All of these things that come and go aren't it... They're all transformations of the mind. When the mind shifts perception by even a little bit, one tiny thought can completely change the entire perception-field.
I had a half-lucid dream where I was inside a dark realm, filled with darkness and blackness. I remembered that Jhanananda simply said that we had to turn towards the light, and so I did. It was extremely strange, because I just uttered mentally a word "Jesus christ" and his 'figure' manifested with a brilliant light, completely obscuring the entire realm and my perception was replaced with one with an expanse of brilliant light. Coincidentally, that was on Easter Night, and I had no idea what Easter meant until I researched later, so perhaps I might have been in touch with the collective consciousness, or this is one of those synchronicities.
This is right on.
I chuckled a little, because he appeared just like the pictures of what I've seen of him, so it is quite clear that these images are formed inside my mind and my mind is what constructs these images, interpreting the phenomena with a certain story.
So i definitely notice that these mental-sankharas... or mental karmic-formations... are kind of like impressions within the subconscious mind, itching to come up at you during periods where lucidity is dimmed. When I sleep and do not maintain lucidity, the mind goes into auto-pilot mode, letting these mental energies go reckless.
To be more precise the collective unconscious is many layers of collective delusion, which are shared by a group of people. We can traverse them, if we are free of delusion.
I also realised that this is the source of the mental 'dark-night'. The mind is going into dullness and not filled with the brahmaviharas that let it be 'energised' or 'bright' (aka lucid enough). The dark night occurs because the subconscious tendencies are allowed to go wild due to the lack of lucidity. We are cultivating the lucid, bright, clear aspect of the mind, and not the dream-like unconscious... therefore the Buddha taught us to skilfully abide in wholesome mind states over unwholesomeness. AND... also why conduct is so important.
I agree.
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Thank you for your continued advice, I appreciate it.
To be more precise the collective unconscious is many layers of collective delusion, which are shared by a group of people. We can traverse them, if we are free of delusion.
I was wondering... are these memory-dumps from people's daily activities, and the karma that they have accumulated over countless lifetimes? For example, if people killed in the name of a God in the past, this collective delusion would cause a pretty Hellish experience. Would some people experience this delusion, while others do not?
Also... assuming that this current life in a flesh-body is just another perspective within perception, and that is just a 'less volatile' version of a dream, disappearing away in memory just like that of past-lives, then is it the case that there is really no 'state' to pass into, because what that perceives is already Deathless? Would nibbana simply mean the ending of clinging onto a "mental-stream", going into voidness?
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Thank you for your continued advice, I appreciate it.
You are welcome
To be more precise the collective unconscious is many layers of collective delusion, which are shared by a group of people. We can traverse them, if we are free of delusion.
I was wondering... are these memory-dumps from people's daily activities, and the karma that they have accumulated over countless lifetimes? For example, if people killed in the name of a God in the past, this collective delusion would cause a pretty Hellish experience. Would some people experience this delusion, while others do not?
I agree with all of this. It is ust a matter of perspective.
Also... assuming that this current life in a flesh-body is just another perspective within perception, and that is just a 'less volatile' version of a dream, disappearing away in memory just like that of past-lives, then is it the case that there is really no 'state' to pass into, because what that perceives is already Deathless? Would nibbana simply mean the ending of clinging onto a "mental-stream", going into voidness?
These are different topics.
It is my understanding that the 'Deathless' is the same as the eternal life of Jesus; however, the respective religions have made this all something very different. One who has arrived at the Deathless/eternal life occurs for one who has mastered the OOBE to the point that there is no unconscious state.
Whereas, nibanna is not an unconscious state, nor a stateless existence. Nibanna is what one has when one has overcome craving at its root.
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I wish to revise my understanding of samskara/sankhara.
Firstly, I believe we lose the body's samskara (both physical and energies) and purify the Skandha of Form in the first and second jhana. Secondly, I believe we lose the mental samskara and purify the Skandha of Perception in the third and fourth jhana.
Samskara is possibly just memory, encoded in different forms. If I do a bodily action, it can be stored as memory in chemical reactions, energy, in other organisms, in the environment around me, etc. Every action has a chain-effect which is basically memory that is stored and converted into other forms unfathomable.
It seems like the goal of Buddhism is to loosen fetters, neuroses and addictions, which is akin to removing samskara, or memories that are habitual.
1. Kamupanana - desire clinging
2. Ditthupadana - ideation clinging
3. Silabbatupadana - ritual clinging
4. Attavadupadana - self clinging
It seems like the only method is like a no-method, by stopping clinging and resting, eventually letting go more and more. But preceding the letting go comes identification at deeper levels. For example, if I identify pattern-formation inside my mind towards certain stimuli, such as nama-rupa or other links of dependent origination, then these things serve as sign-posts to reverse-engineer back to the root of ignorance.
Very strange however. Since the goal is to lose 'memory' or samskara, why is the fruit the attaining of memory of past-lives, for example? It is a strange paradox, but perhaps the recovery of past-lives is not 'losing the memory', but becoming lucid of what has always been there, but has its momentum to pass.
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I wish to revise my understanding of samskara/sankhara.
Firstly, I believe we lose the body's samskara (both physical and energies) and purify the Skandha of Form in the first and second jhana. Secondly, I believe we lose the mental samskara and purify the Skandha of Perception in the third and fourth jhana.
Samskara is possibly just memory, encoded in different forms. If I do a bodily action, it can be stored as memory in chemical reactions, energy, in other organisms, in the environment around me, etc. Every action has a chain-effect which is basically memory that is stored and converted into other forms unfathomable.
It seems like the goal of Buddhism is to loosen fetters, neuroses and addictions, which is akin to removing samskara, or memories that are habitual.
1. Kamupanana - desire clinging
2. Ditthupadana - ideation clinging
3. Silabbatupadana - ritual clinging
4. Attavadupadana - self clinging
This seems reasonable. So, we can conclude, "thou shalt not crave, cling, or covet.
It seems like the only method is like a no-method, by stopping clinging and resting, eventually letting go more and more. But preceding the letting go comes identification at deeper levels. For example, if I identify pattern-formation inside my mind towards certain stimuli, such as nama-rupa or other links of dependent origination, then these things serve as sign-posts to reverse-engineer back to the root of ignorance.
Yes, it is simple, do not: crave, cling, or covet; however, if it were that simple, then most people would be enlightened. This is why we need a Noble Eightfold Path, which is simply a discription of a fruitful contemplative life.
Very strange however. Since the goal is to lose 'memory' or samskara, why is the fruit the attaining of memory of past-lives, for example? It is a strange paradox, but perhaps the recovery of past-lives is not 'losing the memory', but becoming lucid of what has always been there, but has its momentum to pass.
This is where simplification gets us into trouble. It is about overcoming our: craving, cling, and covetousness; not about forgetting, or otherwise sufferers of Alzheimer's would be enlightened.
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Today I learnt that stating observations or personal experiences that conflict with what a person wishes to believe in will undoubtedly cause them anger, despite it being the logical thing to do. I was called arrogant, overconfident, egotistical when I had absolutely no hint of malice and intention behind what I said - just a mere wish to state facts.
I think back to the guidelines of Right Speech and feel that the Buddha was absolutely right - choosing the right TIME to speak, and whether the individual is WILLING to hear, is also part of that virtue...
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I have found the same response from followers of mainstream Buddhism, and Christianity.
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Just like realizing a dream is a dream within a dream, hence becoming 'lucider' in a dream, I have realized that in lucid-dreaming we are not really becoming 'lucid', but switching identities from that of the 'dream-body' to the memory of the 'flesh-body'. Therefore, when we wake up, we come back to this identity of the flesh-body and believe that the dream-body was fake, unreal and an illusion.
However, when we are dreaming, the dream-body does feel like the dream-body and there seems to be no other reality. In the same way, I feel that perhaps the idea is to lose the sense of self in both the dream-body or the flesh-body, and hence go into 'lucid-living' where no identity is attached to.
I have a question that I was wondering about.
The Buddha described humans as being inside the Desire realm (kama-loka).
Then he also described the Material realm (rupa-loka).
Lastly he described the Immaterial realm (arupa-loka).
I know that the jhanas correspond to the Material realm, as referenced to this sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.123.than.html). This is all the way to fourth jhana, as seen in the same sutta.
Then we have the Immaterial realm, which is supposedly corresponding to the Ayatanas. I would also assume that this overlaps with the dream-space as well.
My question is - We humans have a body. So why is it that we can have a flesh-body that is composed of form, which is supposedly rupa? And also we experience great psychological joy and bodily blissfulness that corresponds with rupa.
If this is so, then why is it that humans are inside the kama-loka and not the rupa-loka? Is there a different meaning for the word rupa other than the simplistic meaning of form?
Also, when we sleep, we can also have a 'dream-body'. We can also have an astral body when we project out of body with the manomaya. This is obviously immaterial, so why is it that humans are not in the arupa-loka either? What is the hidden meaning of these three classifications that I do not see? Or is it just confusion?
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My question is - We humans have a body. So why is it that we can have a flesh-body that is composed of form, which is supposedly rupa? And also we experience great psychological joy and bodily blissfulness that corresponds with rupa.
Because we are both matter (rupa) and spirit (arupa).
If this is so, then why is it that humans are inside the kama-loka and not the rupa-loka? Is there a different meaning for the word rupa other than the simplistic meaning of form?
Because, when we are in the material body, then we are in the rupa-loka. When we are driven by action and reaction, then we are in the kama-loka; whether we are in body or spirit.
Also, when we sleep, we can also have a 'dream-body'. We can also have an astral body when we project out of body with the manomaya. This is obviously immaterial, so why is it that humans are not in the arupa-loka either? What is the hidden meaning of these three classifications that I do not see? Or is it just confusion?
When we are out of body we can still be moving on the material plane (rupa-loca), or we can be moving in the immaterial domain (arupa loca).
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Having researched more, it seems that there are two kinds of path for Kundalini:
Water path & Fire path.
Fire path rises, starting from the latent energy in the coccyx, moving upwards to the crown. Water path on the other hand, descends from cosmic-energy downwards into the crown and moves all the way down, awakening the kundalini.
I chanced upon Sri Aurobindo's synthesis of yoga here: https://auromere.wordpress.com/transformation/descent-experience/ It's a pretty good article in my opinion.
Also, his full book here: http://surasa.net/aurobindo/synthesis/
I realised that I did experience an electrifying jolt coming upwards through the entire spine. However, the one that started it all and brought me my second 'dark night' was when bright light descended from the crown and seemed to wipe my sense of body 'clean', if that's a good analogy to use.
I have also had the chance of finding this other mystic who regularly goes out of body, awakens kundalini through fire-path and teaches the jhanas - however, he hails from a different tradition. He claims to be from a tantric teaching similar to Kashmir Shaivisim, influenced by Mishra and directly related to the lineage of Shivananda-natha.
I was indeed wondering if Jhanananda would like to meet this accomplished mystic as well haha, that would be pretty interesting.
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I do not make such a dist9inction in the "kundalini" experience, but it would be interesting to meet any genuine mystic.
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After much experimentation with various methods, I realized that the fastest way is really still through the auditory jhana-nimitta, aka the sound of the ocean of chi, of silence, or the Divine. I realized the esoteric basis of this is discussed about within Taoist and Chan Buddhism texts, where they say that the listening faculty is turned inwards and because the ear-sense is linked to the "ocean of chi". Sight is linked to the spirit, which I take to be the luminous screen and lights that surface in jhana.
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In my experience, it does not matter which charism (jhana-nimitta) one attends to; however, attending to a charism definitely aides in depth in meditation.
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In my experience, it does not matter which charism (jhana-nimitta) one attends to; however, attending to a charism definitely aides in depth in meditation.
Thank you as always for elucidating my points, I always appreciate it. I have also found that these charisms move towards a 'single field', so the light-field increases when the ringing increases, and so on. Typically the 'meditation technique' does not make much of a difference, as long as it gets one to that 'state of mind' conducive for arising joy.
I am still struggling with sustaining deep states of jhana, but there is at no point where my whole body does not feel bliss. I have found the blissfulness to increase while doing certain chi-gong exercises, with tribute to dearly-missed Sam (a year since October 14, 2016). I do not know exactly how it works, but it seems to me that certain postures/choreographies can induce a certain state of mind that gives rise to this peacefulness.
The charisms are a wonderful support, and I find that continuously returning to them releases the neuroticism, addictions and compulsions, and instead provides a rich source of loving-kindness and compassion for others. It is almost like the Divine is loving through me, oh wonderful, wonderful Mother!
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The charisms are a wonderful support, and I find that continuously returning to them releases the neuroticism, addictions and compulsions, and instead provides a rich source of loving-kindness and compassion for others. It is almost like the Divine is loving through me, oh wonderful, wonderful Mother!
Yes, I fully agree with your summary, and have found it to be true.
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I've been finding my way back and am increasing my contemplative practice again from the spare time I have. It is increasingly clear that contemplative practice is highly dependent on how much time is put into practice. Exploring around within Buddhist circles, Dzogchen and Mahamudra seem to only teach "Right Understanding", similar to Advaita, whereas Right Samadhi/absorption becomes a question. So far, the least-distorted one that I've seen is a particular Ch'an practice which heavily emphasizes the development of Samma-Samadhi leading straight into liberation.
The non-dual mind of the third jhana is taken to be the ultimate by many people out there, they become so stuck in this that they cannot fathom a non-duality beyond that. Another problem is that hallucinations from psychedelics have become an increasing trend in the world, with even some monks choosing to embrace them. What a worrying trend. While it does start people on the seeking journey, it also becomes problematic rehab. The clarity is what should be embraced, the divine charisms, not the neurosis.
When they start speaking of non-dual mind, immediately they cannot hide their samadhi attainments, it reveals them, and Jhanananda's quote comes to mind... "A tree is known by its fruit." I take a look at a lot of 'academic' monks out there in videos and immediately see how fidgety they are. They philosophize so much on the ultimate nature of mind but their attainments do not seem to reflect them. Their lotus position is not seasoned enough and their knee stays way up there. It seems to be very true that this is a dharma-ending age, and that the true dharma has been covered up by so much noise and new-age rubbish.
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I've been finding my way back and am increasing my contemplative practice again from the spare time I have. It is increasingly clear that contemplative practice is highly dependent on how much time is put into practice. Exploring around within Buddhist circles, Dzogchen and Mahamudra seem to only teach "Right Understanding", similar to Advaita, whereas Right Samadhi/absorption becomes a question. So far, the least-distorted one that I've seen is a particular Ch'an practice which heavily emphasizes the development of Samma-Samadhi leading straight into liberation.
It is good to hear from you again, bodhimind. I am glad to read that you are turning up your practice. I would like to know more about the particular Ch'an practice that you mentioned. Do you have a source for it?
The non-dual mind of the third jhana is taken to be the ultimate by many people out there, they become so stuck in this that they cannot fathom a non-duality beyond that. Another problem is that hallucinations from psychedelics have become an increasing trend in the world, with even some monks choosing to embrace them. What a worrying trend. While it does start people on the seeking journey, it also becomes problematic rehab. The clarity is what should be embraced, the divine charisms, not the neurosis..
people often stop a short distance along the Samadhi path, thinking there is no more, but, as we have seen here, there is much, much more to be realized.
When they start speaking of non-dual mind, immediately they cannot hide their samadhi attainments, it reveals them, and Jhanananda's quote comes to mind... "A tree is known by its fruit." I take a look at a lot of 'academic' monks out there in videos and immediately see how fidgety they are. They philosophize so much on the ultimate nature of mind but their attainments do not seem to reflect them. Their lotus position is not seasoned enough and their knee stays way up there. It seems to be very true that this is a dharma-ending age, and that the true dharma has been covered up by so much noise and new-age rubbish.
Yes, I agree with you. So, it is up to us all to revive the true dhamma.
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Hi Jhanananda, apologize for the late reply - I'm not too concerned about that Ch'an practice, it's not that accurate imo. Hope you are well.
Currently dwelling in that non-dualistic single field beyond concepts, 24/7 when possible. Just so much tingling and bliss, so much love. Requiring almost a complete letting go of any resistance, complete releasing and leap of faith. I see how the deceptive mind is like a shape-shifter, jumping into things, interpreting things at a frightening level - I almost see how the 'fearfulness' I had which prevented me from going further (which you described as a toe dipping into ice cold water) was nothing real.
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It sounds like you are doing very well. Keep up letting go, and going deeper. The bliss and the tingles say you are going deeper. Very good.
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Yesterday night, I spontaneously woke up half-lucid and experienced the strangest thing:
My sense of "me" was not anywhere. Almost felt like it was one big field where everything was just 'me'. No matter how I searched, from the top of my body to the bottom, to my sight, to the sounds I heard (with the ringing charism), it was like one completely vibrating symphony. I could not find my sense of self anywhere, but yet it was as if me was everywhere. However, this only lasted while my body was immobile - when I started to move, I felt the 'conceptualizations' arise again and start to discern the self-vs-outside. Therefore I stopped moving and simply stayed in this hyper-aware state.
That was really weird and reminded me of a recent experience where I felt my heart burst forth light and merge with the entire universe around me, such that it was just one entire expanse of white light - again usually a dream experience in sleep straight after meditation. Which is weird, because I always get these experiences during sleep, instead of while I am in meditation (where I do experience charisms).
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Very good to hear about your progress bodhimind! It seems we are at similar experiences during meditation and dreaming. Wishing you the best. I have been trying to get a moment to update with my new experiences, but after starting a new job 2 months ago, it has been very difficult to even manage typing everything up. Very exhausted, but the charisms blast so strong all day i feel like i am being blessed by god. I feel like an angel just feeling this much love and bliss. But enough of that, i just wanted to say im glad that you have gotten this far and continue to share your experiences.
Best Wishes
Rougeleader
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Yesterday night, I spontaneously woke up half-lucid and experienced the strangest thing:
My sense of "me" was not anywhere. Almost felt like it was one big field where everything was just 'me'. No matter how I searched, from the top of my body to the bottom, to my sight, to the sounds I heard (with the ringing charism), it was like one completely vibrating symphony. I could not find my sense of self anywhere, but yet it was as if me was everywhere. However, this only lasted while my body was immobile - when I started to move, I felt the 'conceptualizations' arise again and start to discern the self-vs-outside. Therefore I stopped moving and simply stayed in this hyper-aware state.
You and rougeleader115 are doing very well. Now the challenge is to see if you can keep the charisms and the loss of self throughout the day.
That was really weird and reminded me of a recent experience where I felt my heart burst forth light and merge with the entire universe around me, such that it was just one entire expanse of white light - again usually a dream experience in sleep straight after meditation. Which is weird, because I always get these experiences during sleep, instead of while I am in meditation (where I do experience charisms).
This is an excellent description of the opening of the heart chakra. Now move up to opening the throat chakra.
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Thank you, gentlemen, for the very interesting posts. :)
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Just something I found which sounds similar to the auditory charism...
https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/
I turn it up to 14000 Hz +.
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A short blog about current practice.
I've found a difference between "striving without understanding" and "striving with understanding".
The former is like throwing a pie onto a wall and hoping that some of it sticks for the long-term, which of course doesn't. So there is active striving, more and more, until one point it is 'too much striving' for the person and he gives up.
The latter is like gravity. The understanding makes the striving effortless. Also, it is as if there is no other viable path but going down this path. The path is clear and the gravity pulls you towards it, making sure and definite progress.
I've found myself shifting towards the latter more and more. The understanding of anicca, dukkha and anatta are so essential that I may even describe it as the requisites for the path. The dropping away of wrong views (as in Bramajala sutta (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.01.0.bodh.html) or Maha Chattarisaka Sutta (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html) ) are even more essential. Without them, there cannot be any progress.
Along the path, the indicators that you are doing something right is the blissfulness that arises is translated as "unworldly joy" (reference is the Niramisa Sutta (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.031.nypo.html) or Sujato's translation alongside Pali (https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato)). Entering the jhanas gives 'unworldly joy' and release from the taints of hatred/greed/delusion are 'greater unworldly joy'. The three grades as follows:
1. sāmisā pīti = material joy
2. nirāmisā pīti = spiritual joy from jhana <---- The indicator
3. nirāmisā nirāmisatarā pīti = greater spiritual joy from release of taints
Striving with actual insight into reality shifts the entire thing. The path is so solid and clear, and it can only be done with the removal of the asavas.
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Thank-you, Bodhimind, for posting another interesting blog entry. Lately I have been using the metaphor that we are a soul in a biological creature's body. When we meditate deeply we become in contact with the spirit. When we are in deep meditation, then we experience charisms, and it is those charisms that tell us we are now in contact with spirit. The "other worldly bliss," that you mentioned, is defined by those charisms. When we experience this "other worldly bliss" then we know that we are "striving" correctly, because we should never forget that "We know a tree by its fruit," and the fruit that we are discussing is that "other worldly bliss."
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Thank-you, Bodhimind, for posting another interesting blog entry. Lately I have been using the metaphor that we are a soul in a biological creature's body. When we meditate deeply we become in contact with the spirit. When we are in deep meditation, then we experience charisms, and it is those charisms that tell us we are now in contact with spirit. The "other worldly bliss," that you mentioned, is defined by those charisms. When we experience this "other worldly bliss" then we know that we are "striving" correctly, because we should never forget that "We know a tree by its fruit," and the fruit that we are discussing is that "other worldly bliss."
Thank you for that wonderful metaphor Jhanananda, reminds me of some traditions calling humans "half-animal and half-spirit".
Also from MN93 (Assalāyanasutta):
"The descent into the
womb takes place through the junction of these three [conditions]:
there is a union of mother and father, the mother is in season and
the gandhabba is present."
I assume the gandhabba refers to the manomayakaya (mind-made body) also called the soul, the silvery/white body that leaves the body like a snake shedding its skin (as described in the Samannaphala Sutta).
I've actually met someone who described his out-of-body travels after following the teachings of the Buddha (Pali Canon) from Sri Lanka. He told of his experience of leaving his body and corresponds it with the Abhidhamma. He describes it as follows:
The "hadaya vatthu" is the place where thoughts arise in the manomayakaya, which overlaps the physical heart of the flesh body. The manomayakaya leaves the body at death and searches around for a new body.
He was able to see the manomayakaya which was like a sheet of white paper like what we see in X-rays, resembling a comet. It is translucent and white, with eyes and ears. The manomayakaya is a replica of the body - upon death, the body becomes as dead as a log. It is slightly illuminated and pulsatile. There are also differences between animal and human manomayakayas. While meditating in Jhana in Bodhgaya, he was able to see the manomayakayas of everyone else in Jhana.
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I don’t know if I have mentioned this before bodhimind, but I have always been impressed by the uniqueness and clarity of your thought. :) To me, it seems absolutely clear you are an example of what they call in mysticism a “deified” man: and if not, certainly someone of great moral, emotional, and intellectual excellence.
Jeff’s post reminds me of an OOB account I read recently. It was about a son whose father died. This sent him into a deep depression. One night he had an extremely vivid dream. He dreamed he was in the cemetery at his father’s grave. Suddenly his father appeared next to him. The father reached down (while the son was in his gloom) and pulled his shirt up - and when he did so it revealed a big “S” (like Superman) underneath.
I quite like this story as it has a distinctly modern feel to it. Yet it is also expressing an important truth. That our real nature is not this limited, fallible, deluded creature. But, something very different. :)
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I don’t know if I have mentioned this before bodhimind, but I have always been impressed by the uniqueness and clarity of your thought. :) To me, it seems absolutely clear you are an example of what they call in mysticism a “deified” man: and if not, certainly someone of great moral, emotional, and intellectual excellence.
Jeff’s post reminds me of an OOB account I read recently. It was about a son whose father died. This sent him into a deep depression. One night he had an extremely vivid dream. He dreamed he was in the cemetery at his father’s grave. Suddenly his father appeared next to him. The father reached down (while the son was in his gloom) and pulled his shirt up - and when he did so it revealed a big “S” (like Superman) underneath.
I quite like this story as it has a distinctly modern feel to it. Yet it is also expressing an important truth. That our real nature is not this limited, fallible, deluded creature. But, something very different. :)
You are too kind Alexander, thank you for your kind comments. This flesh body (and brain) is going to die in any way... so I'm not going to attach that much importance to what these conditions are. :)
Spirit is so inconceivable, yet She takes care of us.
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Name and Form
Today I was contemplating about how useless it was for words to attempt to describe reality. It was like using a hand to grab some sand, and foolishly thinking that with this hand, I have already grasped the desert itself. We do this so much with an illusion-like ability to name things.
We say the apple is so and so - Red, Crunchy, Size of my hand, Round...
Yet it cannot ever capture the real essence of the Apple. Intuitively, there is something even simpler, even before words. The apple itself is not the "concept of apple", not this limited idea of what we superimpose upon things in our reality. It is inconceivable, non-graspable, and insatiable.
But yet we continue to grasp onto things in this reality.
The eye is like an immense ocean, unable to be filled with sights. The ears, tongue, nose, body and intellect are equally insatiable, unable to ever be satisfied with sounds, tastes, smells, sensations and thoughts. Yet we stubbornly cling onto them. Instead, if we turn to Spirit - it is already complete in Herself - We don't need to grasp the non-graspable. Acknowledging this insatiability, we understand, we 'give up' the futile struggle, and this very surrendering is like a prayer to Spirit.
The world is filled with madness. Everyday, I see people who can't understand how from birth, they have always tried to "obtain something", not knowing that they are already complete with Spirit. They fail to obtain things, they lose what they've obtained and plunge into suffering. But yet, they foolishly do not see that the very method is wrong for attaining any form of relief/satisfaction. They pick up what has failed, retrying again and again and again... Until time runs out.
Looking at an apple, a dad may love an apple. His mind is filled with habits of desire for the apple. On the other hand, a child would look at the same apple and his mind may be filled with habits of aversion for the apple.
Same apple, same object, same things in the world → But different responses because of not understanding the Dharma.
Likewise, we are so ready to grasp notions of ourselves. We think we are this limited form of body, feelings, thoughts and mental qualities. Just like the apple, we can never truly grasp their essences. This is because we are going about it the wrong way. Instead of 'giving it up' into Spirit, these 'names and forms' have become our crutch to stubbornly attach into this world.
The futility of grasping sounds leads me to the auditory charisms. The futility of grasping any part of experience leads me to the charisms. I truly hope one day that I may finally leave these hellish planes for good.
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Yes, Bodhimind, the gandhabba refers to the manomayakaya (mind-made body).
What I see around me is people becoming attached to things, instead of immersing themselves in spirit.
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I was reading Alexander's post here:
Your post encourages me to resume my practice. I was doing long sits as well recently, but to no avail. I confess I get quite discouraged. I often read the posts on here about people's ecstasies and I think to myself, "why do these experiences not happen to me?" Then I sit there for hours motionless, in the same state of consciousness as the waking state, and end up feeling like a fool. "Nothing is happening," I think, "there is no bliss or joy or energy..." I think I have to rededicate myself - expect nothing to happen - but just do it straight through for a full 30 days.
Just wanted to give a short response on my blog. I think the best way to think about it is that we are continuously disconnecting ourselves from Spirit. If we let go, we are naturally reunited with Spirit. Therefore, we need to identify the ways we are separating ourselves from Spirit. We often indulge in the animal-side of man, investing deeply in this flesh-body and hence the concept of 'spatial existence' and when we let go, we don't truly let go.
I remember when I used to sit long without any results too.
I find the best portal for me is "experience-stuff". One of the best portals for me is thought. When thought arises, we become hyper-aware of it happening. But instead of paying attention to the thought content, try to feel and sense the energy of the thought and what it is made out of. Suddenly, we become aware of this sense of a transparent-like, holographic-like energy that seems to form a thought. The paradox is that when we follow the "thought-stuff" instead of its contents, we actually disengage from the stories of the mind and start to pay attention to what is really happening right now, like what Eckhart Tolle calls the 'power of now'.
As we sit there, simply just watching thoughts arise and bubble away, I don't just focus on the nothingness, but I focus on the entire experience without rejecting it. Almost like a dance of energy. And you're not separate from the dance, you're just being one with this 'experience-stuff'. As we examine more deeply this 'experience-stuff', suddenly the other senses start to "unlock" too.
The next easiest sense for me is really the tactile sensations. If you find the sensation, you also start to realize that we impute ideas of space and time over just pure sensation. For example, if I feel tingling, how do I know "where" and "how intense" it is? It is just tingling - and before even a name, that pure experience of tingling. Slowly we then start to find that this entire field of tactile sensations happens 'nowhere', not 'inside a body'. It is also made of the same 'experience-stuff'. Then as we go on, sound is the next easiest for me, especially when the auditory charism arises. In a sense, it is almost as if awareness has become less fragmented. After sound, sight - but I don't really pay much attention to that because the senses start to converge into a singular field of "pure consciousness stuff". The 'one eye' or 'one taste' or 'one sense'.
So when I sit, it is not just an experience of a 'body'. It is the experience of sight, sound, taste, smell, touch and thoughts, as if it was made of a "pure experience material" - I hesitate to really call it anything, even 'energy', maybe spirit would be a nice word. That which breathes life into experience in a dance. So as the practice goes on, strangely, it doesn't become 'blankness' - instead it becomes dynamic presencing of everything - full of life and the charisms.
I remember when I had that spontaneous light bursting forth from the heart, I could not locate my body, just one expanse of white light. But it wasn't that I couldn't locate it - it took effort. So it was almost like I needed effort to impute a thought in, to "find my body", to "define the edges". Kind of like post-jhana and you get out of a deep state and it takes a while to recalibrate.
About accessing this 'now' (which is later gone beyond), I guess it is like the sense of combining these approaches:
1. having the perception of things not even "rising" completely and passing away as soon as they arise, hence every effort we strive for in the world of sensory pleasure falls to naught - that acknowledgement is renunciation imo. (Girimananda sutta has a good list (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.than.html) of "perceptions")
2. being completely immersed in experiencing, be it paying attention to the charisms or meditation object, away from indulging in thoughts
3. not falling prey to thought content and its stories
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Thank you, Bodhimind, for the interesting thoughts. I will try to apply them. I have also had a problem with my lungs recently, which has disrupted my practice, though hopefully they are getting better now. I will see if I can recommit this month. I do indeed often feel like I am sitting there like a fool for hour after hour. It would be nice to not experience this for once. :)