Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => OOBE => : Alexander August 07, 2024, 12:50:05 AM
-
I was wondering if we could dialogue on the out-of-body experience, since it is one of the most essential topics when it comes to the questions of immortality and reincarnation.
I myself did not believe in them for years, thinking they were illusions of the brain, but I was heartened when Jeff began talking about these experiences, which I was able to aggregate with others I had read on the topic (William Buhlman and Bob Monroe).
If we read the suttas, it appears the Buddha experienced OOBEs based on his explanations of the different states of being (asura, deva, ghost, human, animal) and the spirit world. We also find allusions to them in St. Paul’s mention of “whether in the body or outside of it I do not know” and Mohammed’s spiritual “night journey.”
Some of the big questions might be:
1 How do we know the OOBE is a separation of consciousness from the body, and not just an experience limited to the brain (when alive)?
Recently I watched an interview with someone who experienced clinical death, and he claimed he experienced nothing, and I wonder why he has that experience when others report NDEs.
I have seen NDEs have become very seriously integrated into the scientific literature these days, which is a huge change, but I saw one statistic saying only 4% of those experiencing clinical death report them, which seems low.
2 Understanding the difference between the form-based worlds and the formless worlds.
That is, when out of body one can take on the image of the human you were in life, or become a singular point of awareness.
I was watching William Buhlman give a lecture to the Bob Monroe Foundation, and he explained the priority of going to the formless, invoking the Tibetan Book of the Dead as understanding this.
3 Understanding one’s fate in the post-death state.
A common answer to this is the idea of “like attracts like”?
I’ve learned surprisingly few NDErs report hell experiences, perhaps only 10%, despite all the fears of it that existed for centuries and were inculcated through systems like Catholicism. William Buhlman spoke of the fear of his father in dying, after growing up in such beliefs and having had to kill Japanese soldiers in World War II, which violated the commandment of “Thou shalt not kill.”
4 Understanding what compels reincarnation from the nonphysical state. What the purpose of human life is and why we chose (or were compelled?) to descend here.
There was one dialogue I had on this years ago: https://alexanderlorincz.com/index.php/dialogues/why-do-we-return
The often cited answer is to “learn.” William Buhlman in one of his presentations gave a kind of anti-Buddhist answer, and actually said it’s fine we return again and again because our true nature is immortal and we have eternity to explore the universe.
5 Related to that, what the purpose is of suffering.
I read one account of a soul of someone who had a chronic illness who was claimed to be brighter in the spirit world, and we all would like that to be the case, but at the same time so much of it feels futile and useless. (Having gone through plenty of it personally ;D.)
6 Whether it’s true we choose our parents before birth, as is claimed in some OOBE literature, and in Plato’s account of the Myth of Er.
7 What the lowest level of being with a spirit is, like an insect; how souls match with bodies; and the “logistics” of it?
My uncle gave a very nihilistic answer to this once when I was walking with him. He pointed to a rabbit and asked “How is the rabbit different from you?” Meaning it would be great if there was a soul, but we should conclude our consciousness is mechanical just as that of the rabbit’s is.
8 Whether there really are gods, like Shiva and Ganesha, in the spirit world; if there are ancient gods like Zeus and Hera; or if they are inventions of human imagination.
9 What the focus of religion should be on, given all this information.
One of the questions I had was whether Christ or the Buddha was the greater spiritual teacher. It seems certain spiritual masters, like Christ and John of the Cross, don’t include OOBEs in their teachings, so one wonders whether that would make them less effective teachers, or if it doesn’t impact their fate in the post-death world.
-
Over 50 years ago I started a daily meditation practice primarily as self-therapy. At the time there were few books on the subject, so I ended up reading books by the Christian mystics, Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross. I understood from their writing that meditation was expected to result in a positive experience, so that was my expectation. Within a few weeks I was experiencing positive phenomena, such as tactile vibrations.
After 6 months of meditating at least twice a day, first thing and thing at night I had found in one of my many self-help books a recommendation to develop lucid dreaming, so I started those methods, which were Journaling my dreams and positive aforemention just as I lay in bed, "I will remember my dreams tonight." Within about a week I started having lucid dreams.
After a few weeks of lucid dreaming I had my first OOBE, which was sitting up and leaving my body behind, but I had not heard of anything like that then, so I was afraid I was becoming delusional. So, I went to visit an old lady who had rented a room from my mother 10 years earlier, and since my mother's mother had died this old lady had become my mother's surrogate mother. I told her what I was experiencing and that I was afraid that I was going insane.
She said, "Oh, dear. You are just having out of body experiences."
She gave me a series of lesson booklets from an organization called the Coptic Fellowship. I read them, then I read "Journeys Out of the Body" by William Monroe, then more books on the subject as well as meditation came out and I read them all. I also became interested in Buddhism and its Noble Eightfold Path. I decided to dedicate myself to following the Noble Eightfold Path as I understood it, which after 50 years seems like a very accurate and concise description of a contemplative life without all the excess baggage of religion.
It really didn't take me long to realize lucid dreaming and the OOBE are just a natural consequence of leading a dedicated contemplative life. It has been almost 5 decades since I have tried to go out of body. For me, it just happens when I go to sleep every night.
-
I find meditating upon my breath for an hour just before bed works great for me. When I meditate I shift my focus from the breath to the vibrations, sounds and lights that arise after my mind is still. After an hour of meditation then I lay in bed. There I return to observing my breath, and the vibrations, sounds and lights until my body falls asleep. Once my body falls asleep, then I go wherever I want in the Astral plane. This method has worked great for me for 50 years.
When I meditate upon my breath I just observe the physical sensation in my nostrils. I find it calming and leads easily to a still mind, then I just sit in meditation savoring that still mind. After some time observing my still mind I notice a ringing sound and a vibration, like energy, coursing through my body, so I observe the vibrations and sounds until my entire awareness is filled with the vibrations and sounds. Then my body seems to disappear. Time seems to stop, and I just sit there in that timeless vibrating space until a luminous sphere fills the center of my visual plane. I sit there enjoying the beauty of that luminous sphere for as long as it feels right. Then I go to bed and lie down on my back in a comfortable position and start back meditating upon my breath and find a still mind, then the vibrations and sounds, then the timelessness and loss of body-awareness, then the luminous sphere appears, at this point I enter it. It becomes a whirling kaleidoscope which I come out of into another domain on the Astral plane.
-
Dr Eben Alexander. No brain activity, but came back and described Heaven.
Eben Alexander III (born December 11, 1953) is an American neurosurgeon and author. His book Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife (2012) describes his near-death experience that happened in 2008 under medically-induced coma when treated for meningitis. He asserts that the coma resulted in brain death, that consciousness is not only a product of the brain and that this permits access to an afterlife.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Alexander_(author)
-
In his book:
Into the Magic Shop: A Neurosurgeon's Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart Paperback – February 14, 2017
by James R. Doty MD (Author)
Described experiencing OOBEs and NDEs.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/316170/into-the-magic-shop-by-james-doty-md/
-
Imagine Heaven: Near-Death Experiences, God's Promises, and the Exhilarating Future That Awaits You https://g.co/kgs/yBYcNr
The literature of the major religions has references to OOBEs:
The Pali Canon, DN-2
The Yoga Sutras
The Bible, Jacob's Ladder, Genesis 28:10–19
Jacob's Ladder (Biblical Hebrew: סֻלָּם יַעֲקֹב, romanized: Sūllām Ya'aqōv) is a ladder leading to heaven that was featured in a dream the biblical Patriarch Jacob had during his flight from his brother Esau in the Book of Genesis (chapter 28).
Genesis 28:10–19
Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)
The Fruits of the Contemplative Life
https://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/phala.htm
The Proto-Contemplative Life, Lucid Dreams and Out-of-Body Travel
https://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/protocontemplative.htm
-
Proof the OOBE is real and not just a mental projection.
One of my first Astral projections was to find some lost keys, which I found Out-of-Body, then once I had returned to my body I walked to where I found my keys Out-of-Body and they were right there. So, I know from direct experience that we can visit and move about the physical universe in our Astral body, but the Astral plane is also nonphysical.
-
These are great responses, and apologies for so many questions; but, it seemed we had never gone in-depth into this topic. And, I will be sure to try to preserve your answers to these powerful questions.
-
I am always lurking but thought I could contribute here. Here is a youtube video that I was recently watching on the topic of OOBE.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQjAIlFZWWc
It is one of three videos talking about the 'how-to' in OOBEs. In particular, they seem to have talked about the 'indirect method' which is similar to going into it in deep meditation, except that they are using the transition into REM sleep as a vessel to enter instead.
I've found the astral world to be extremely 'fluid' and subjective to even the smallest movement of thought, and found some of the descriptions in the video above to be rather accurate. Though I do think that jhana provides critical stability so that you do not 'snap out of the astral projection state' with fear, etc.
I also rememeber that once I had visited a distant family member's house (which I had never visited before), and I was able to describe to the exact detail the entire layout and furniture of the house (including how many storeys it had, and where the cupboards were placed, where the stairs were). But the funny thing was that it was the exact placement about 3 years before when I asked my relative about it. I wonder if the time aspect varies as well.
-
It is good to hear from you again, bodhimind, and thanks for contributing to this dialog. Most of the dialog on OOBEs in the astral traveling community that I read is similar to our dialog here; however, what I see in the OOBE community is they are all in a hurry to get Out-of-Body; whereas, for me and the Pali Canon saturation and suffusion through time spent in those pre-OOBE charisms is essentially jhana saturation, which I have found has significant transformational value, so this is why I emphasize the jhanas.
Regarding visiting locations in the material, yes, in my experience we can visit a place that we have never been to while Out-of-Body and describe its details fairly accurately, except we will also be aware of the spiritual dimension of that location, as well as its material history.
-
I want to post a relative dialog Jhanananda had during a group retreat. The descriptions in here really help me. It’s on the deathless and the out of body experience.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/dhammatalks/05-31-06.2.mp4
-
Thank you, rougeleader115. I look forward to any dialog that arises on this subject.
-
Imagine Heaven: Near-Death Experiences, God's Promises, and the Exhilarating Future That Awaits You https://g.co/kgs/yBYcNr
Interesting coincidence. I have a paper copy of this book somewhere in my house.
-
Cool, Tad, if you read it, then please let us know what you think of the book.
-
Jhanananda,
I finished reading most of that book. I enjoyed it.
I recently read an article about NDEs in Thailand. It is interesting how in Christian cultures quite many NDE stories involve meeting Jesus or God in the form of light. But in Thai NDE stories I noticed that people often men characters from Buddhist mythology such as Yama who was judging then. Unfortunately, so far Ive been able to find very little about Buddhist NDEs and it would be interesting to explore it more.
I wonder if belief system plays a big role in what reality the mind creates for the transition from this world to another world. What are your thoughts?
-
It is good to know, Tad, you finished reading the book, and thank you for your report and question. It is clear that cultural biases are used by the subjects who have NDEs and OOBEs; however, if we step back from the cultural interpretations we can see some strong similarities in these experiences, such as the god of death 'Yama' parallels the Christian devil; and the Buddha parallels the Christian Jesus. We should expect similar parallels in other religions and cultures.
-
Jhananda,
Good points. I think the most interesting common theme in NDEs is the light. It is interesting how the light can personalize itself even thought people generally describe it as formless and infinite. I also wonder if the light can be considered as the highest reality or if there is something even beyond it.
-
Thank you, Tad, for posing your interesting question. Certainly light is a key feature described by mystics. In my experience of the 7th stage of samma-samadhi the anthropomorphic representation of beings disappears and all beings become just points of light and love.
-
So where is the Buddha, Jeff? Is he still “reachable” as an individual, or is he in some incomprehensible state?
What about Christ? And if Jesus is so important for millions of people, how does he meet so many in the afterlife ;D!
-
Jhanananda,
Thanks for replies and sharing experiences.
Alexander,
Good question. I am also looking forward to Jhananda's response
A Theravada monk told me that while Buddha is no longer in this universe, his energy is here until this world cycle is over. So it is possible to tap into Buddha's energy by contemplation. Maybe something similar happens in the afterlife that beings are able to see energies of various spiritual masters?
-
So where is the Buddha, Jeff? Is he still “reachable” as an individual, or is he in some incomprehensible state?
What about Christ? And if Jesus is so important for millions of people, how does he meet so many in the afterlife ;D!
The ancient enlightened beings from the deep past still exist. I know this because I have had numerous dialogs with many of them including Siddhartha Gautama and Yeshua ben David, and many others who have not entered the historic record.
-
The ancient enlightened beings from the deep past still exist. I know this because I have had numerous dialogs with many of them including Siddhartha Gautama and Yeshua ben David, and many others who have not entered the historic record.
That is really amazing. What was the essence of what each wanted to communicate? Did the Buddha and Christ emphasize different things?
What do you make of the “God” question? Is “God” a formless impersonal divine Source like the Indians believe?
From William Buhlman’s account, it sounds like the spirit world is a thought-responsive reality. If it is, why do we reincarnate? (So, the OOB people say the purpose of life is *learning through suffering,* which is the opposite of Buddhism which teaches that we want to stop reincarnating to avoid suffering.)
How integrated are the knowledges of our different lifetimes in the post-death state? Are we able to make sense of how all our experiences caused us to grow or evolve? Is it true we “grow” in some way as a result of each life?
-
That is really amazing. What was the essence of what each wanted to communicate? Did the Buddha and Christ emphasize different things?
In my experience of "communicating" in the spirit world is it is a non-verbal exchange of information, which is often times vast including the entire content of the entirety of all of their lifetimes.
What do you make of the “God” question? Is “God” a formless impersonal divine Source like the Indians believe?
The 8ths stage of samma-samadhi, in my experience, is what a mystic would experience as "god." And, "God" in my experience is the entirety of beings, which would be the "heavenly host" in a biblical context. And, at the level of the 8ths stage of samma-samadhi we become all of that in oneness.
From William Buhlman’s account, it sounds like the spirit world is a thought-responsive reality. If it is, why do we reincarnate? (So, the OOB people say the purpose of life is *learning through suffering,* which is the opposite of Buddhism which teaches that we want to stop reincarnating to avoid suffering.)
I haven't read William Buhlman, but I don't buy the spirit world is a "thought-responsive reality," or that we *learning through suffering.* Whereas, the Four Noble Truths is a far more descriptive explanation of suffering and why we reincarnate.
In my experience the various stages of the spirit world is they are all domains of delusion until we unit in unity in the 8th stage. In my experience thought comes to an end long before leaving the body.
How integrated are the knowledges of our different lifetimes in the post-death state? Are we able to make sense of how all our experiences caused us to grow or evolve? Is it true we “grow” in some way as a result of each life?
For most beings the lower spirit world, where most beings go after death, is very close and parallel to the material plane, so most spirit beings are deeply delusional, and learn nothing from lifetime to lifetime. It is only by leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life that cultivates the 8 stages of samma-samadhi that we "progress" to greater depths to higher domains.
-
Excellent questions by Alexander and very interesting replies by Jhanananda. Thanks to both.
One additional question - is the reality that you call God trying to communicate to beings in some way and help them awaken? For example, according to Buddhist texts every world cycle has a Buddha. Is not that some sort of a divine principle that Buddha's appear?
-
Excellent questions by Alexander and very interesting replies by Jhanananda. Thanks to both.
One additional question - is the reality that you call God trying to communicate to beings in some way and help them awaken? For example, according to Buddhist texts every world cycle has a Buddha. Is not that some sort of a divine principle that Buddha's appear?
This is a good question. From my experience Out-of-Body the world cycle "Buddha" is a reincarnation of the planetary deity, who is the overseer of this planet, and is in direct contact with all other planetary deities throughout the universe. And, to be clear, the "world cycles" follow the Milankovitch cycles, specifically the precession of the solstice. This also follows the movement of dominant empires, such as the movement from the age of Aries to the age of Pisces and now Aquarius.
Also, the "world cycle Buddha" is followed by angels/jinns/devas who are close associates in "orbit" around this planet. However, through attrition because the material world is so full of cruelty, abuse, and trauma, not many of these angels/jinns/devas who are close associates of the "world cycle Buddha" will be survive long enough to assist the "world cycle Buddha" in his or her work on the planet.
-
This is a good question. From my experience Out-of-Body the world cycle "Buddha" is a reincarnation of the planetary deity, who is the overseer of this planet, and is in direct contact with all other planetary deities throughout the universe. And, to be clear, the "world cycles" follow the Milankovitch cycles, specifically the precession of the solstice. This also follows the movement of dominant empires, such as the movement from the age of Aries to the age of Pisces and now Aquarius.
Also, the "world cycle Buddha" is followed by angels/jinns/devas who are close associates in "orbit" around this planet. However, through attrition because the material world is so full of cruelty, abuse, and trauma, not many of these angels/jinns/devas who are close associates of the "world cycle Buddha" will be survive long enough to assist the "world cycle Buddha" in his or her work on the planet.
I know you have alluded to these sorts of “higher-supernatural” matters before. Is it possible to unpack these ideas, since you seem to be the only source for this info? If true, it would be invaluable to make that kind of esoteric knowledge available. Though it does make me think partly of Gurdjieff’s writings in Beelzebub’s Tales, I haven’t encountered it in other OOB writers before.
So would you agree with the following:
Does each planet have a “deity”?
Who is earth’s “deity”? The Buddha?
Does this mean non-earth planets have nonphysical beings on them?
What determines the lifespan of an angel, if it is a nonphysical being?
What is the angel’s fate at the end of its lifespan - human rebirth and amnesia?
If the devas are present how do they help us? Why don’t they try to intervene and help us more when we most need them?
Gurdjieff said the whole cosmos was evolving and earth was a branch of the “ray of creation.” He said the physical world was the most difficult part to live in of the evolving cosmos. When you speak on these matters it makes me think of this area of his teaching. Is this your experience?
Why do other OOB writers not learn these sorts of matters?
Re: planetary deities,
Where does Christ fit in?
Is there any value in a life of suffering in the “imitation of Christ”?
I also wanted to inquire into what you learned about the life of Christ when you met him?
Re: William Buhlman,
Buhlman explains some spiritual worlds to be solid “consensus realities” and others to be protean and “thought-responsive,” like the “deities who delight in creation” in Buddhism. Has this been your experience?
Buhlman suggests we want to go to the formless worlds in death, so we no longer have a human or pseudophysical form in the afterlife, is this your experience?
-
Thank you, Alexander, for asking your questions.
OOBE questions answered
Does each planet have a “deity”?
Yes, each planet has a deity
Who is earth’s “deity”? The Buddha?
The planetary deities are beyond name and form (nama rupa). They have no name and no form, but when they incarnate then they take a form and are given or take a name.
Does this mean non-earth planets have nonphysical beings on them?
While life surely takes different forms on different planets and ages; nonetheless. In my experience every planet and every star has a overlord deity.
What determines the lifespan of an angel, if it is a nonphysical being?
Angels have eternal life because they are beyond material form, so they do not have a form that dies; however, when they take form, then that form is subject to genetics and events.
What is the angel’s fate at the end of its lifespan - human rebirth and amnesia?
Angels are eternal.
If the devas are present how do they help us? Why don’t they try to intervene and help us more when we most need them?
Angels and other spirit beings are all around us all of the time. We subsist in an ocean of spirit. They are always ready to help us, but they cannot modify the material world without taking birth. Sometimes they do. When angels take birth they are often demonized. When they are not, the we call them mystics. For us to acquire the aide of the angels/devas we need to learn to meditate deeply by following a righteous lifestyle, which is precisely defined by the Noble Eightfold Path.
No, evolution takes place in biology. There is no evolution in the spirit world, other than individuals learning to lead a righteous life and learning to meditate deeply, and to master the OBOE, so that they don’t have to come back to hell.
The other OBOE writers don’t write about the greater depths of the spirit world because they all reside in the lower astral which is close to the material realm.
Siddhartha Gautama and Yeshua ben David were incarnations of the planetary deity.
I don’t see any value in promoting suffering, especially when suffering is a characteristic of this domain.
The Jesus that has been hyper-marketed by the western Christian church is mostly fiction. Dump the miracles, because miracles are job security for a pretentious and hypocritical priesthood and the ruling class.
I will agree with Buhlman on one topic, at death we want to leave this world behind and never come back, because this is hell. We do that by letting go of the material world and embrace the formless domains of the spirit world.
-
Thank you, Jeff, for the very amazing responses to this important topic.
If you’re comfortable, and it doesn’t fatigue you, I’d like to continue asking/unpacking more of these questions.
So, from what I’ve read, it appears the spirit world is infinite, far vaster than the physical cosmos. The inhabitants of it take on all different forms, such as fairies or fey folk or nature spirits (there is a chapter of Bob Monroe’s book describing this), to celestial halls like Valhalla with beautiful cities, to even “extraterrestrial” pseudo-technological worlds as well (the latter not being my preferred place, if it exists… ;D). The Buddha also describes sex heavens with gods and nymphs, and other worlds with devas who “delight in creation,” which I always interpreted as the “thought responsive” worlds Buhlman alluded to. As a painter and writer I always found that one of the most interesting possibilities, myself. Has this wide variety of worlds been your experience?
Perhaps an odd question: given there are technological worlds, could a computer work in the spirit world? I read once about the “astral university district” where atheist souls go in death. Do they recognize they are deceased there? Do they have an “Internet” and play “local-area network” computer games with each other there? I was thinking of someone who would ask, “What is heaven without World of Warcraft?”
The other idea I have gotten from my readings, is there is an approximate hierarchy based on the jhanas, where the positive spiritual worlds are broken up by jhana 1, 2, 3, and 4, and then the very high worlds are broken up by jhana 5, 6, 7, and 8. The big difference between these is 1-4 are “form based,” for example having a human form, and 5-8 are formless, for example being a singular point of consciousness in a transcendent domain. Is this generally how it works?
In regard to devas - my conclusion is we are all actually devas once we leave the body, and that it is simply a matter of belief, knowledge, and delusion that manages us in the post-death state. So a regular person, though they have the same spiritual power of an angel, we call simply a “spirit” due to a lack of knowledge. A psychologically or spiritually ill person, we call a “ghost.” An ill-meaning and worldly person, we call a “demon.” Would you agree with this?
Previously we articulated most people’s post-death fate is a product of “like attracts like,” that the malicious, greedy, and materialistic get attracted to a similar domain, while the wise, benevolent, and transcendental get attracted to a similar domain. For instance I think of Dante who placed Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle in a similar domain, a similar-to-Earth “heaven” of the Elysian Fields. Has this been your experience?
“Angels are eternal.”
Exactly. That would be my conclusion also. So I have a few questions from this statement:
1 Would the danger thus arise in incarnation, where an angel coming to Earth develops amnesia, and has to face a life in the harsh physical world?
2 In death are you able to recall your previous lifetimes and existences, including angelic ones, and remember any previous spiritual attainment (even if, say, the world sent you astray on a worldly path)?
3 And I just want to reconcile an angel’s immortality with this statement: “However, through attrition because the material world is so full of cruelty, abuse, and trauma, not many of these angels/jinns/devas who are close associates of the "world cycle Buddha" will be survive long enough to assist the "world cycle Buddha" in his or her work on the planet.” — Are you referring to when these devas descend to Earth? Or that the devas cease working on helping alleviate human suffering and go elsewhere in the spirit world?
-
Thank you, Jeff, for the very amazing responses to this important topic.
If you’re comfortable, and it doesn’t fatigue you, I’d like to continue asking/unpacking more of these questions.
So, from what I’ve read, it appears the spirit world is infinite, far vaster than the physical cosmos. The inhabitants of it take on all different forms, such as fairies or fey folk or nature spirits (there is a chapter of Bob Monroe’s book describing this), to celestial halls like Valhalla with beautiful cities, to even “extraterrestrial” pseudo-technological worlds as well (the latter not being my preferred place, if it exists… ;D). The Buddha also describes sex heavens with gods and nymphs, and other worlds with devas who “delight in creation,” which I always interpreted as the “thought responsive” worlds Buhlman alluded to. As a painter and writer I always found that one of the most interesting possibilities, myself. Has this wide variety of worlds been your experience?
Yes, in my experience the nonphysical domains are infinite, and in my experience so is the physical world, so I don't buy into creationism, nor big-bangism. There is an infinite variety of experiences one can have once out-of-body; however, as long as one is engaging with anthropomorphs, then one is in the lower domains. When one is interacting with conscious, self-aware points of light and love, then one has risen to the higher domains.
Perhaps an odd question: given there are technological worlds, could a computer work in the spirit world? I read once about the “astral university district” where atheist souls go in death. Do they recognize they are deceased there? Do they have an “Internet” and play “local-area network” computer games with each other there? I was thinking of someone who would ask, “What is heaven without World of Warcraft?”
As I said, the non-physical world is infinite which means there are an infinite variety of experiences one can have, but it is all in the lower domains.
The other idea I have gotten from my readings, is there is an approximate hierarchy based on the jhanas, where the positive spiritual worlds are broken up by jhana 1, 2, 3, and 4, and then the very high worlds are broken up by jhana 5, 6, 7, and 8. The big difference between these is 1-4 are “form based,” for example having a human form, and 5-8 are formless, for example being a singular point of consciousness in a transcendent domain. Is this generally how it works?
Yes, but the 5th stage of depth in samma-samadhi is just the lower astral domains where one still embraces a kind of physical body.
In regard to devas - my conclusion is we are all actually devas once we leave the body, and that it is simply a matter of belief, knowledge, and delusion that manages us in the post-death state. So a regular person, though they have the same spiritual power of an angel, we call simply a “spirit” due to a lack of knowledge. A psychologically or spiritually ill person, we call a “ghost.” An ill-meaning and worldly person, we call a “demon.” Would you agree with this?
In my experience this is hell, which means most of the beings we encounter are demons, so when most people die they remain in the lower realms. Whereas, those who learn to meditate deeply are likely to ascend to higher domains after death, which means they will be an angel/deva after death.
Previously we articulated most people’s post-death fate is a product of “like attracts like,” that the malicious, greedy, and materialistic get attracted to a similar domain, while the wise, benevolent, and transcendental get attracted to a similar domain. For instance I think of Dante who placed Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle in a similar domain, a similar-to-Earth “heaven” of the Elysian Fields. Has this been your experience?
Yes, I agree, this has been my experience.
“Angels are eternal.”
Exactly. That would be my conclusion also. So I have a few questions from this statement:
1 Would the danger thus arise in incarnation, where an angel coming to Earth develops amnesia, and has to face a life in the harsh physical world?
Taking material form is entering hell, but angels do so regularly for the benefit of others. After death they return to the higher domains.
2 In death are you able to recall your previous lifetimes and existences, including angelic ones, and remember any previous spiritual attainment (even if, say, the world sent you astray on a worldly path)?
I would expect so, as this has been my experience of 50 years of OOBEs and many NDEs starting after my COPD diagnosis.
3 And I just want to reconcile an angel’s immortality with this statement: “However, through attrition because the material world is so full of cruelty, abuse, and trauma, not many of these angels/jinns/devas who are close associates of the "world cycle Buddha" will be survive long enough to assist the "world cycle Buddha" in his or her work on the planet.” — Are you referring to when these devas descend to Earth? Or that the devas cease working on helping alleviate human suffering and go elsewhere in the spirit world?
I'm saying their body may not survive long enough to be of much help.
-
Thank you 🙏 , again, for the very amazing responses. :)
-
Thank you 🙏 , again, for the very amazing responses. :)
You are welcome. I hope that my responses inspire people to take up a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life in which they begin and end every day with at least 1 hour of deep meditation per session.
-
Jhanananda,
How much power do planetary gods have? What is your opinion about worshipping gods? Does worshipping produce any positive energy that can help beings?
Regarding miracles in the Bible, I think they kind of resemble miracles found in Pali. For example, the sutta whera a monk changes weather through psychic power.
-
Jhanananda,
How much power do planetary gods have? What is your opinion about worshipping gods? Does worshipping produce any positive energy that can help beings?
Regarding miracles in the Bible, I think they kind of resemble miracles found in Pali. For example, the sutta whera a monk changes weather through psychic power.
Thank you, Tad, for posting your interesting questions. I see no value in worshiping gods, as they have no control over the material world. Nor do I consider miracles anything more than propaganda. Instead, I recommend following the whole of the Noble Eightfold path, which includes beginning and ending every day with hour-long meditation sessions that result in the depths associated with the 8 stages of samma-samadhi.
-
So have you found Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha, etc to exist in the spirit world?
-
So have you found Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha, etc to exist in the spirit world?
These are more mythical beings. If you compare the iconography associated with Gilgamesh to Shiva there is a clear close association between these two ancient personalities. Ganesh is clearly a cartoon character. Vishnu might be an attempt to express the concept of a planetary deity that periodically takes birth as a messiah figure.
-
These are more mythical beings. If you compare the iconography associated with Gilgamesh to Shiva there is a clear close association between these two ancient personalities. Ganesh is clearly a cartoon character. Vishnu might be an attempt to express the concept of a planetary deity that periodically takes birth as a messiah figure.
Interesting, can you unpack this more? As I always wondered if the gods of myth were discovered via intuitive mysticism — ie they do actually exist even if they can’t interact with us — or if they were products of human imagination.
So:
1 If we are “devoted” to any spiritual masters, would you say we are better off with those who actually lived on Earth, ie, Christ, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and the Buddha?
2 So to confirm, after 50 years of OOBEs you’ve found Ganesh and Vishnu to be fictional? (A shame.)
3 And you’ve found Shiva may be a corruption of a mythological figure? Any encounters with Kali?
-
Interesting, can you unpack this more? As I always wondered if the gods of myth were discovered via intuitive mysticism — ie they do actually exist even if they can’t interact with us — or if they were products of human imagination.
So:
1 If we are “devoted” to any spiritual masters, would you say we are better off with those who actually lived on Earth, ie, Christ, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and the Buddha?
I don't really see any value in devotion to a past master, or mythical being being particularly useful, when a daily meditation practice that results in experience of depth such as a still mind. And, regarding the mythic figures, I see that more an example of priest-craft.
2 So to confirm, after 50 years of OOBEs you’ve found Ganesh and Vishnu to be fictional? (A shame.)
Yes
3 And you’ve found Shiva may be a corruption of a mythological figure? Any encounters with Kali?
Yes, I have encountered Shiva and Kali, and many other past masters. I have also studied ancient religious literature and find some interesting linguistic connections between religions, for instance, Shakti is a female consort to Shiva, who represents the phenomena that is associated with the religious experience. In Judaism there are references to 'shakina' which is feminine and referred to as the experience of god; so both terms are too much alike to not have a linguistic connection.
-
Thank you, very interesting responses again.
1 So previously you said the beings in the "lower heavens" are subject to delusion, can you unpack what delusions they have? Is one of these delusions that they get "locked" into a certain "loka" in the spirit world due to belief?
2 If so- would they be able to go to other heavens (similar to a human in an OOBE) if they understood their true nature as spirit?
3 When you said it's best to go to the higher formless heavens- it is a recurring theme. Actually, it makes me think of this icon of the different order of angel- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Nine_orders_of_angels.jpeg My question here is it a matter of "why settle for a lower good when higher goods are available"?
-
Thank you, very interesting responses again.
1 So previously you said the beings in the "lower heavens" are subject to delusion, can you unpack what delusions they have? Is one of these delusions that they get "locked" into a certain "loka" in the spirit world due to belief?
You are welcome, the delusions are based upon separateness, which we understand as identity. Identity has many layers, and as we move to higher domains we shed the layers of identity. For instance human identity is bound up in our physical human body, but we shed that when we travel out-of-body; however, the lower astral domains are occupied by beings who still believe they have a body.
2 If so- would they be able to go to other heavens (similar to a human in an OOBE) if they understood their true nature as spirit?
as we shed our sense of identity we can move to higher domains.
3 When you said it's best to go to the higher formless heavens- it is a recurring theme. Actually, it makes me think of this icon of the different order of angel- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Nine_orders_of_angels.jpeg My question here is it a matter of "why settle for a lower good when higher goods are available"?
The image seems to be bound up in the sense of human identity and thus only represents the lower astral domains.
-
What do you think about Buddhist teachings that some gods from heavenly realms are hoping to be reborn as humans so they could have better opportunity to practice dhamma?
Also what about Pali Canon verses about heavenly beings having very long life span but not being eternal and subject to rebirth?
-
These are great dialogues, thank you. I have many more questions. It seems easier to ask them a few at a time.
1 Have you found any insight into the average delay between lives? I remember you mentioned being a Holocaust victim, a Native American from the southwest (who was a lover), and a Tang dynasty monk. William Buhlman mentioned once being a German WWII era tank commander.
2 Do we learn anything from our former lives? Or is it a tabula rasa each time?
3 Any insight into what compels reincarnation? Is it choice? Craving?
4 Do we select our parents? Is Plato right in saying the wise choose wiser births? How do we acquire that knowledge pre-birth?
-
What do you think about Buddhist teachings that some gods from heavenly realms are hoping to be reborn as humans so they could have better opportunity to practice dhamma?
Also what about Pali Canon verses about heavenly beings having very long life span but not being eternal and subject to rebirth?
These are good questions, which I cannot answer, but keep in mind that there is evidence of apocrypha in the Pali Canon.
-
These are great dialogues, thank you. I have many more questions. It seems easier to ask them a few at a time.
1 Have you found any insight into the average delay between lives? I remember you mentioned being a Holocaust victim, a Native American from the southwest (who was a lover), and a Tang dynasty monk. William Buhlman mentioned once being a German WWII era tank commander.
Thank you. This is a good question. I don't really know if we can predict the time in between births or explain it.
2 Do we learn anything from our former lives? Or is it a tabula rasa each time?
One would hope we learn from our birth cycles, but I wouldn't think someone who is not a contemplative would learn anything from lifetime to lifetime. They just go on repeating the same cycles.
3 Any insight into what compels reincarnation? Is it choice? Craving?
Yes, people are driven by craving and covetousness, so giving up craving and covetousness is the solution, which requires taking up a contemplative life, which is reasonably described by the Noble Eightfold Path.
4 Do we select our parents? Is Plato right in saying the wise choose wiser births? How do we acquire that knowledge pre-birth?
Yes, probably, but remember for most people their cycle of births is driven by craving; whereas, a mystic returns for the benefit of others.
-
Got it. Thank you ;D.
A few more:
1 There is a book on OOBEs, one of the oldest written, by Carrington and Muldoon, that states there is a “silver cord” that connects the spirit back to body (if it astral projects). I think I have also seen something like this in Hindu art before. Is there such a cord?
2 You responded to the Orthodox icon of the different tiers of angel with: “The image seems to be bound up in the sense of human identity and thus only represents the lower astral domains.”
Interesting! As the higher images are trying to portray a formless angel. So how might a human imagine that state? How might an artist depict it?
3 Occult literature makes references to a place called the “akashic records,” a huge library which contains a record of every experience, thought, emotion, etc from history. Have you ever visited such a place? I would think that would be an amazing place to go to in the spirit world.
-
Got it. Thank you ;D.
A few more:
1 There is a book on OOBEs, one of the oldest written, by Carrington and Muldoon, that states there is a “silver cord” that connects the spirit back to body (if it astral projects). I think I have also seen something like this in Hindu art before. Is there such a cord?
I had been traveling Out-of-Body for about a year before I read about the "silver cord." In 50 years of nightly OOBEs I have never seen a silver cord connecting my astral body to my physical body, so I reject the idea as one of the countless delusions that characterize lower astral experiences. The thing most astral "experts" don't get is the astral plane is a pane of delusion, where you see what you want to see.
2 You responded to the Orthodox icon of the different tiers of angel with: “The image seems to be bound up in the sense of human identity and thus only represents the lower astral domains.”
Interesting! As the higher images are trying to portray a formless angel. So how might a human imagine that state? How might an artist depict it?
One has to realize that artistic expression may not represent reality, but an attempt to express the formless domains in pictorial representation.
3 Occult literature makes references to a place called the “akashic records,” a huge library which contains a record of every experience, thought, emotion, etc from history. Have you ever visited such a place? I would think that would be an amazing place to go to in the spirit world.
The akashic records is a metaphor. There is no library, other than as a projection; however, while Out-of-Body we can certainly revisit the past no matter how distant in the past.
-
Thank you. A few more questions:
1 Why would we crave incarnation, if the spirit world is infinite and available to us? Ie, couldn’t we explore Infinity as a discarnate person? Why come to the physical world?
2 Is it true the dead can visit us in dreams? Is this why we often dream of recently passed loved ones?
3 Is it true people can “get stuck”? For example, I once heard a tale of a Chinese ghost who kept doing his job, going to work each day, coming home, eating his noodles- it was basically a duplicate of his physical life (as a ghost).
-
Thank you. A few more questions:
1 Why would we crave incarnation, if the spirit world is infinite and available to us? Ie, couldn’t we explore Infinity as a discarnate person? Why come to the physical world?
There is no outside force that causes us to crave. There is no "the devil made me do it." We have to own our craving
2 Is it true the dead can visit us in dreams? Is this why we often dream of recently passed loved ones?
Yes, when we dream we are in the immaterial domains, but most of us are not self-aware enough to know that we are Out-of-Body.
3 Is it true people can “get stuck”? For example, I once heard a tale of a Chinese ghost who kept doing his job, going to work each day, coming home, eating his noodles- it was basically a duplicate of his physical life (as a ghost).
Yes, in some sense people who are not self-aware often get stuck repeating their daily activities, which I believe is why Asian cultures have a shrine to dead relatives, but it typically doesn't take long for the typical craving individual to reincarnate.
-
Great answers, thank you. Another set:
So Madame Blavatsky had the idea of the “ascended masters,” a universal term for saints and mystics in the afterlife. Have you encountered any of the following? They are certainly the ones I would want to reach out to first in the post-death state, to comprehend that world and the true nature of the universe.
Did they teach you anything/communicate with you? What is one thing you learned from each in your interactions in the spirit world?
1 Siddhartha
2 Christ
3 John of the Cross
4 Teresa of Avila
-
Great answers, thank you. Another set:
So Madame Blavatsky had the idea of the “ascended masters,” a universal term for saints and mystics in the afterlife. Have you encountered any of the following? They are certainly the ones I would want to reach out to first in the post-death state, to comprehend that world and the true nature of the universe.
Did they teach you anything/communicate with you? What is one thing you learned from each in your interactions in the spirit world?
1 Siddhartha
2 Christ
3 John of the Cross
4 Teresa of Avila
Yes. I encountered these ascended masters and many more while Out-of-Body. My experiences of encountering ascended masters was more like a direct transmission in which they downloaded their entire history into my consciousness while "communicating" with them while Out-of-Body. It is quite some experience.
-
Yes. I encountered these ascended masters and many more while Out-of-Body. My experiences of encountering ascended masters was more like a direct transmission in which they downloaded their entire history into my consciousness while "communicating" with them while Out-of-Body. It is quite some experience.
Hi Jeffrey,
Sounds really spectacular--
So what did you learn from each? Or is there a reason for not sharing those meetings?
-
Hi Jeffrey,
Sounds really spectacular--
So what did you learn from each? Or is there a reason for not sharing those meetings?
It is a little fantastic a claim to publicly report them, so I have focused upon building a community of dedicated contemplatives who have similar experiences.
-
Got it. Makes sense. A couple more questions:
1 Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia created a record of early childhood memories– allegedly of previous lifetimes. Have you found phenomena like this exists– that some young children remember? Or have you found that the amnesia/forgetfulness of birth is complete?
2 Some OOBE writers reference “soul groups,” friends/relatives we reincarnate with over many lives– ie, that your brother in this life may have been your best friend in your last life, or your wife in this life may have been your sister in your last life, etc– have you found any truth to this in your experience?
-
Got it. Makes sense. A couple more questions:
1 Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia created a record of early childhood memories– allegedly of previous lifetimes. Have you found phenomena like this exists– that some young children remember? Or have you found that the amnesia/forgetfulness of birth is complete?
While I haven't spent a great deal of time analyzing childhood dreams, because I haven't had a lot of contact with children; nonetheless, I fathered 2 children who I noticed would awake crying in their first few years, often in their pre-verbal age, so I had nothing but their sudden terror to go on, and I was aware of some of the claims that some children recall their previous lifetimes, so I figured their night terrors were due to recalling previous lifetime traumas. As they got older there was no content in their dialog to suggest a recollection of previous lifetimes, and we had dialog regarding dreams around the breakfast table every morning. Yes, they had dreams, but I didn't hear anything that I could reasonably associate with a previous lifetime.
However, since I have been traveling Out-of-Body every night for 50 years I have traveled backwards in time to previous lifetimes many, many times. Often the point of entry into a previous lifetime would be the moment of death, so some of those recollections were traumatic. In the 80s I had repeating sequences of being tortured to death. Over time I gained more content to recognize the period and scene. I was tortured in a Nazi concentration camp because I was a German working with the resistance, and my wife was Jewish and in hiding, and she brought me into the resistance. I was tortured by the SS because they wanted to extract information from me regarding my cell of resistance. I never gave it to them before the SS officer lost his temper and kicked me to death in his torture chamber in a concentration camp.
In another OOBE-based previous lifetime recollection I was a poor farmer in India and she was my wife then, and bore me a few children. We lived in a very primitive mud hut. I recalled everything from that lifetime, as I relived thee entirety of it from birth to death, and I recalled sitting by her side as she took her last breathe, and I wept for her loss. Then my death some years later. I came back to my body in this lifetime as I died in that lifetime. When I became aware of this lifetime, after reliving the entirety of a lifetime, the experience of time-space dilation just about broke my psychological sense of self.
2 Some OOBE writers reference “soul groups,” friends/relatives we reincarnate with over many lives– ie, that your brother in this life may have been your best friend in your last life, or your wife in this life may have been your sister in your last life, etc– have you found any truth to this in your experience?
Yes, I have over the decades occasionally met someone who I had an instant rapport with who I came to realize was someone I knew in a previous lifetime. An example of this is I met a woman in Tucson who belonged to a sangha that I belonged to who I had an instant attraction to. In my recollections of previous lifetimes described above, this woman was my wife in that previous lifetime. In this lifetime she had no interest in me.
-
Thank you, excellent and remarkable answers as usual. :)
Re: your experiences— When I was in my 20s I went through the moral reasoning of whether the world was just or not, and I concluded that what you claim to experience (reliving past lives, in addition to religious ecstasies, reincarnation, and OOBEs) needed to exist for us to be in a just cosmos. It’s interesting Darren Aronofsky represented a similar concept in his movie The Fountain— it shows other people go through that line of reasoning too. But, it’s unfortunate the experience seems limited to only a tiny, .01% of the great mystics.
A few more questions:
1 What do you think of the cosmos being “just”? Is it just? We see its arbitrary and cruel character every day, but allegedly an afterlife and karma should make it just in the long term.
2 Do you believe in karma? Perhaps a strange question, given it’s a Buddhist forum; but we do see every day the extraordinary *injustice* and arbitrary nature of the world— other than that imposed by humans.
3 Similarly: what is your opinion of the soul? Are the Hindus and Christians more right in saying the soul is the ultimate reality of the self? Or, what do you make of the Buddhist “not self” theory? (And what does that mean, exactly, if it is the perspective you subscribe to?)
-
Thank you, excellent and remarkable answers as usual. :)
Re: your experiences— When I was in my 20s I went through the moral reasoning of whether the world was just or not, and I concluded that what you claim to experience (reliving past lives, in addition to religious ecstasies, reincarnation, and OOBEs) needed to exist for us to be in a just cosmos. It’s interesting Darren Aronofsky represented a similar concept in his movie The Fountain— it shows other people go through that line of reasoning too. But, it’s unfortunate the experience seems limited to only a tiny, .01% of the great mystics.
My take on the material world is it is hell, where we all suffer at one point or another, and the only way out is to have no craving or covetousness for any aspect of this hellish domain.
A few more questions:
1 What do you think of the cosmos being “just”? Is it just? We see its arbitrary and cruel character every day, but allegedly an afterlife and karma should make it just in the long term.
There is no benevolent creator god. There is no justice here, because this is hell. The only way out is following the Noble Eightfold Path.
2 Do you believe in karma? Perhaps a strange question, given it’s a Buddhist forum; but we do see every day the extraordinary *injustice* and arbitrary nature of the world— other than that imposed by humans.
When we consider that the material plane is hell, and the only way out is overcoming our craving, then craving in the form of "karma" causes us to return to this hell.
3 Similarly: what is your opinion of the soul? Are the Hindus and Christians more right in saying the soul is the ultimate reality of the self? Or, what do you make of the Buddhist “not self” theory? (And what does that mean, exactly, if it is the perspective you subscribe to?)
It depends upon how you define "self." If you mean self to mean soul, then we have to dump all of the concepts of identity, which are self. When we arrive at the second jhana, then the mind is still, which is a shedding of much of the individual concept of self, but the 8 stages of samadhi all represent 8 sages of shedding self.
-
I just want to say that I appreciate the questions asked and the answers in this thread, and they aspire me to practice more diligently.
I wish to ask more about the various planes of existence during an OOBE. I remember Jhanananda mentioned 5th jhana as post transition through kasina into infinite space (literal outer space).
I revisited the GWV's writeup on samadhi stages and it says the 6th jhana is infinite time - which is not correct, as the 6th Buddhist jhana is infinite consciousness. I was wondering what the experience of infinite consciousness is like?
Also, what is no-thingness and no perception nor non-perception?
-
I just want to say that I appreciate the questions asked and the answers in this thread, and they aspire me to practice more diligently.
Good to hear from you again, bodhimind. I am glad that the dialog here is giving you some inspiration to practice more intensely, and providing you guidance.
I wish to ask more about the various planes of existence during an OOBE. I remember Jhanananda mentioned 5th jhana as post transition through kasina into infinite space (literal outer space).
Yes, or more precisely, the fifth stage of samma-samadhi is the OOBE, and the first stage of the OOBE is really experienced being Out-of-Body on the material plane, but can include traveling anywhere in space to other planets, etc, so, I am OK with 'infinite space' as a translation of the 5th stage of samma-samadhi.
I revisited the GWV's writeup on samadhi stages and it says the 6th jhana is infinite time - which is not correct, as the 6th Buddhist jhana is infinite consciousness. I was wondering what the experience of infinite consciousness is like?
The problem with translation is most translators don't even meditate, and most of them were just scholars, and of those who are monks, they generally put the robes on and pretend to be holy, so none of them have any experience at all with the 8 stages of samadhi. Whereas, I have a degree in linguistic anthropology, and I have been a rigorous contemplative for 50 years, and I have had consistent depth in meditation for over 50 years, which has included daily Out-of-Body experiences. So, I try to map my experiences in samma-samadhi.
So, back to infinite consciousness as a definition of the 6th stage of samma-samadhi. I'm OK with infinite consciousness as a definition, but what does that mean? In my experience of being Out-of-Body in space and looking out at the vastness of space, which is full of stars, but I felt each point of light was a being which emitted immense love. So, infinite consciousness and love is OK with me.
Also, what is no-thingness and no perception nor non-perception?
This is a good question. I find these definitions are confusing because they don't map onto my experience. The definitions suggest unconsciousness; however, that has not been my experience. Instead my experience was becoming one with all of that infinite field of light and love so that I was all of that. This definition fits the larger description of experience of mystics.
Sources:
Jhana as defined in the Buddha's Discourses (https://webmail.jhananda@greatwesternvehicle.org/jhana.html)
-
Thank you, excellent and remarkable answers as usual. :)
Re: your experiences— When I was in my 20s I went through the moral reasoning of whether the world was just or not, and I concluded that what you claim to experience (reliving past lives, in addition to religious ecstasies, reincarnation, and OOBEs) needed to exist for us to be in a just cosmos. It’s interesting Darren Aronofsky represented a similar concept in his movie The Fountain— it shows other people go through that line of reasoning too. But, it’s unfortunate the experience seems limited to only a tiny, .01% of the great mystics.
My take on the material world is it is hell, where we all suffer at one point or another, and the only way out is to have no craving or covetousness for any aspect of this hellish domain.
A few more questions:
1 What do you think of the cosmos being “just”? Is it just? We see its arbitrary and cruel character every day, but allegedly an afterlife and karma should make it just in the long term.
There is no benevolent creator god. There is no justice here, because this is hell. The only way out is following the Noble Eightfold Path.
2 Do you believe in karma? Perhaps a strange question, given it’s a Buddhist forum; but we do see every day the extraordinary *injustice* and arbitrary nature of the world— other than that imposed by humans.
When we consider that the material plane is hell, and the only way out is overcoming our craving, then craving in the form of "karma" causes us to return to this hell.
3 Similarly: what is your opinion of the soul? Are the Hindus and Christians more right in saying the soul is the ultimate reality of the self? Or, what do you make of the Buddhist “not self” theory? (And what does that mean, exactly, if it is the perspective you subscribe to?)
It depends upon how you define "self." If you mean self to mean soul, then we have to dump all of the concepts of identity, which are self. When we arrive at the second jhana, then the mind is still, which is a shedding of much of the individual concept of self, but the 8 stages of samadhi all represent 8 sages of shedding self.
I think Jhananda's answer to Alexander's question is in line with Pali canon. The problem is that the material world runs on what Buddha called greed, hatred, and delusion. So how can we talk about the world being just or unjust when the reason the material world exists is layers upon layers of delusions? However, while in this world we are not completely separated from higher aspects of life and they can be experienced here as well.
-
I think Jhananda's answer to Alexander's question is in line with Pali canon. The problem is that the material world runs on what Buddha called greed, hatred, and delusion. So how can we talk about the world being just or unjust when the reason the material world exists is layers upon layers of delusions? However, while in this world we are not completely separated from higher aspects of life and they can be experienced here as well.
Fortunately, the superior fruit are also manifested in various ways, which include wisdom, kindness and generosity, etc. So, by moving away from ignorance, delusion, cruelty, greed, craving and covetousness, and manifesting kindness and generosity, wisdom, etc., then we move away from the hellish nature of the material word and toward the heavenly domains; and back to the central premise which is fallowing the Noble Eightfold Path, which isn't 5 folds, it is 8, which includes jhana. So, when you follow a branch of Buddhism that does not recognize jhana, then you are following a delusional form of Buddhism which is run by clowns who put the robes on and pretend to be holy.
-
I think Jhananda's answer to Alexander's question is in line with Pali canon. The problem is that the material world runs on what Buddha called greed, hatred, and delusion. So how can we talk about the world being just or unjust when the reason the material world exists is layers upon layers of delusions? However, while in this world we are not completely separated from higher aspects of life and they can be experienced here as well.
Fortunately, the superior fruit are also manifested in various ways, which include wisdom, kindness and generosity, etc. So, by moving away from ignorance, delusion, cruelty, greed, craving and covetousness, and manifesting kindness and generosity, wisdom, etc., then we move away from the hellish nature of the material word and toward the heavenly domains; and back to the central premise which is fallowing the Noble Eightfold Path, which isn't 5 folds, it is 8, which includes jhana. So, when you follow a branch of Buddhism that does not recognize jhana, then you are following a delusional form of Buddhism which is run by clowns who put the robes on and pretend to be holy.
Thanks, Jhananda for further explanation.
Would you agree that as we develop more goodness in our mind, it sooner or later reflects in the external life in some form such as accidentally meeting kind people or finding teachings that one has been looking for, etc.?
-
Thanks, Jhananda for further explanation.
Would you agree that as we develop more goodness in our mind, it sooner or later reflects in the external life in some form such as accidentally meeting kind people or finding teachings that one has been looking for, etc.?
This has not been my experience. 71 years ago I was born into a highly abusive family. 55 years ago I took up a life that is dedicated to peace, social justice and the environment. 51 years ago I took up a daily meditation practice which results in consistent access to samma-samadhi. 50 years ago I took up a sober life and began experiencing nightly OOBEs. However, I have been demonized by every contemplative movement I was ever involved with. The priests of all religions put on a costume and pretend to be holy, and they are supported financially if they continue to preach lies. The history and literature of all religions shows they have been preaching lies throughout their history, and were active participants in wars and immense cruelty. The priests of the three vehicles of Buddhism have no idea what the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path is, and they have demonized the experience of samma-samadhi and anyone who experiences it.
I met my 2 successive wives at 10-day meditation retreats, but they did not turn out to be dedicated contemplatives; and instead were abusive to me and my children.
If we examine closely the empires of the past we find the ruling class were cruel and corrupt, and created the religions of today, and wars to distract the population. Proof of this can be found in WWI. WWI was a war perpetrated by the kings of England, Germany and Russia, who were first cousins. They used poison gas against each others armies exterminating millions of their own population in the process. Why? because socialism was on the rise.
So, I find it only reasonable that this is hell, and believing that this is not hell requires deep delusion.
-
Hello Jeff,
What do you think of past life regressions? Basically a form of hypnosis to recall past lives? There are some like Brian Weiss who are doing this.
-
I've done it several times. While it was helpful; nonetheless, therapists are generally not as useful as a daily meditation practice that results in depth and daily OOBEs.
My first time with regression hypnosis was about 24 years ago I was in couples therapy with a woman who was severely disturbed, so a hopeless case. On her recommendation we went to a woman who did regression therapy out of her home. My guess is she didn't do it out of her house again after regressing me, because, while she thought she was regressing me back to early childhood, I went back to my most recent previous lifetime where I was being kicked to death by an SS officer in a Nazi concentration camp during WWII.
The first thing that happened when I clicked into the regression was I literally flew backwards out of the chair I was sitting in during the regression, and literally bounced around the floor of her living room, meanwhile screaming at the top of my lungs. She tried suggesting me to come back but her voice was in the distance while the SS officer's voice was in the foreground demanding I tell him where my wife and our resistance cell was and who they were. It went on for quite sometime. Eventually I came back to the present. The regression brought me to a part of a recurring dream of being tortured.
After that I went to another therapist who was more comfortable with regressing me. Eventually I made it through the whole story to the end of dying freezing to death in the snow in Switzerland, where I had escaped when they tossed me into a pile of bodies thinking I was dead. The story is both horrible and fantastic.
-
Ah, so you have had regressions -- and that have verified what you learned when OOB. I had reached a point where I had given up all confidence in intuition, but perhaps I have gone too far.
You know the L. Ron Hubbard soup cans can be used to do past life regressions. It's one of the ways they embed people in Scientology, with apparent knowledge of past lives.
I do wonder how accurate it is, and the extent to which imagination can corrupt it. I think I would have to lean on the side of skepticism unless I learned something in the nonphysical world.
I wonder if any of my preferences have a past life origin; I've always felt connections to places like Germany, Greece, France, India, and Spain.
##
Another question:
So previously you wrote that a woman had been your wife in a past life, and you knew her in another. How did you obtain this knowledge? And how do you verify it is true and not a delusion?
-
Ah, so you have had regressions -- and that have verified what you learned when OOB. I had reached a point where I had given up all confidence in intuition, but perhaps I have gone too far.
You know the L. Ron Hubbard soup cans can be used to do past life regressions. It's one of the ways they embed people in Scientology, with apparent knowledge of past lives.
I do wonder how accurate it is, and the extent to which imagination can corrupt it. I think I would have to lean on the side of skepticism unless I learned something in the nonphysical world.
I wonder if any of my preferences have a past life origin; I've always felt connections to places like Germany, Greece, France, India, and Spain.
##
I never got the impression that the science fiction author L Ron Hubbard or his cult Scientology had any wisdom worth paying attention to
Another question:
So previously you wrote that a woman had been your wife in a past life, and you knew her in another. How did you obtain this knowledge? And how do you verify it is true and not a delusion?
My experience of being Out-of-Body is the cognitive mind is not present, so I tend to take the experiences of being in an OOBE on face value. Especially when the content is so lucid and detailed such as literally reliving an entire lifetime.
-
I never got the impression that the science fiction author L Ron Hubbard or his cult Scientology had any wisdom worth paying attention to
Agreed
Over the years, have you discerned the after-death fate of any famous figures? Are Hitler, Stalin, and Hubbard in hell states? Or is the afterlife fate of people different than we imagine?
-
Agreed
Over the years, have you discerned the after-death fate of any famous figures? Are Hitler, Stalin, and Hubbard in hell states? Or is the afterlife fate of people different than we imagine?
When traveling Out-of-Body most of the people we encounter are in between lives, but I have had no interest in exploring the post life experience of the rich, powerful or famous.
-
I have a question about people who die young. If you die at 3 or as an infant how does the afterlife function? Do you “return” in memory to your most recent past life?
-
I have a question about people who die young. If you die at 3 or as an infant how does the afterlife function? Do you “return” in memory to your most recent past life?
The variables are infinite, but the current lifetime does not necessarily control the afterlife.
-
Interesting. So what is it like to correspond on the level of an “angel,” who might remember many different lives?
What exactly does a transcendental being like an angel “do all day”? “Do with its time”?
-
Interesting. So what is it like to correspond on the level of an “angel,” who might remember many different lives?
In my experience communicating in the higher domains is direct transmission and continuous. It is not just communication as we know it in this domain. It is a domain that is saturated with bliss, joy and ecstasy; which I experienced as the most intense experience of pure love. At the same time transmission of whole lifetimes of information and experience in just an instant.
What exactly does a transcendental being like an angel “do all day”? “Do with its time”?
There is no "day" or "night" there. There is no sleep, or need to sleep, but eternal consciousness which is saturated in light and love 100% of the time, so there is no craving, nor a need to crave there.
-
Great responses, thank you. A few more questions:
1 I love it as it is as I would have expected... that deva-hood would be the desired end goal. But, why does Buddhism seem to emphasize the "finite lifespan" of devas if they are eternally existing?
2 Related to this is the idea it's best to be born as a human --- not a deva --- to practice the dharma. What do you make of this?
3 Buddhism puts some emphasis on becoming a nonreturner, and teaches there are "anagami worlds" or "pure abodes" where one achieves enlightenment in the post-death state. Have you encountered any of these anagami worlds? Is there any truth to this?
-
Great responses, thank you. A few more questions:
1 I love it as it is as I would have expected... that deva-hood would be the desired end goal. But, why does Buddhism seem to emphasize the "finite lifespan" of devas if they are eternally existing?
2 Related to this is the idea it's best to be born as a human --- not a deva --- to practice the dharma. What do you make of this?
3 Buddhism puts some emphasis on becoming a nonreturner, and teaches there are "anagami worlds" or "pure abodes" where one achieves enlightenment in the post-death state. Have you encountered any of these anagami worlds? Is there any truth to this?
1) The fact that Buddhism has rejected the 8 stages of samma-samadhi for over 2,000 years serves as all of the proof I need that the institution of Buddhism has not understood the Noble Eightfold Path that long.
2&3) as long as we have craving for the material world we will continue to return; however, I see no reason to believe that we need the material world for anything.
-
Thank you :) A couple more questions:
1 OOBErs often state there are “reality fluctuations” when they are projecting in the physical world. Ie, small changes like a door being red rather than blue, or an object being in a different place. Have you encountered this? (I know you mentioned in one of your old videos the “real time zone” is like the “collective unconscious”?) What might account for this?
2 I’ve read about people creating “thought forms” that can have a kind of independent existence in the spirit world. Have you encountered this at all?
-
In answer to both of your questions the lower astral plane is just another delusional domain, so anything goes. On the other hand, one of the first things I did when I first started traveling Out-of-Body was to search for some lost keys, which I found right away, so that doesn't fit the complete delusion model.
-
So craving causes us to reincarnate as human. How does a spirit avoid this in the post-death state?
-
So craving causes us to reincarnate as human. How does a spirit avoid this in the post-death state?
We avoid reincarnation by overcoming craving. We overcome craving by following the Noble Eightfold Path, not a 7 fold path, nor a 5 fold path.
-
by overcoming craving for the material plane.
-
Thank you
What have you learned about animals? Do they also reincarnate over many lives? Do they become more “conscious” and “promote” to a human birth? Are we the incarnations of former animals?
-
I don't really hold onto the concept of humans being the crown of creation, because I have recalled many lifetimes as animals. In fact one of my most common lucid dreams as a child was me recalling a previous lifetime as a fish. In fact at the time I could not be sure if I was a human child dreaming I was a fish, or a fish dreaming I was a human child.
-
Interesting
1 Have you discerned anything about the origins of souls? Where does a “self” originate?
2 So based on your schema would it be safe to say most of humanity is doomed to reincarnate? What about individuals like Socrates, who lived a life of detachment (though without meditation)? Or Bob Monroe (OOBEs without jhana)?
-
Interesting
1 Have you discerned anything about the origins of souls? Where does a “self” originate?
I have not observed an origin point for my soul or anyone else so I have conclude there is no beginning point.
2 So based on your schema would it be safe to say most of humanity is doomed to reincarnate? What about individuals like Socrates, who lived a life of detachment (though without meditation)? Or Bob Monroe (OOBEs without jhana)?
Reincarnation is driven by craving, so when craving is over, then reincarnation is over, with the exception of enlightened souls returning for the benefit of others.
-
Thank you
1 I’ve read NDE accounts of people going through a kind of “spiritual cleansing” in the afterlife (shortly after dying), refreshing themselves after the oftentimes very traumatic and intense suffering of a human life. Have you encountered this?
2 Similarly, is it reasonable to expect a joyful reunion with loved ones in the afterlife?
3 Would it be reasonable to say we have many “forgotten friends” from prior lives? Are we able to remember these and reunite with them?
4 In regard to the pre-birth state, I’ve read we often have a draft of a “life plan” before reincarnating. Have you encountered this?
-
Thank you
1 I’ve read NDE accounts of people going through a kind of “spiritual cleansing” in the afterlife (shortly after dying), refreshing themselves after the oftentimes very traumatic and intense suffering of a human life. Have you encountered this?
While I have been traveling Out-of-Body most of my life, and I had numerous NDEs in the first 4 months after my COPD diagnosis I cannot say I had any experience that would provide information for a “spiritual cleansing” after death. What I have observed is most people who are dead don't know that they are dead, and reincarnate quickly afterwards due to craving and covetousness for the material world.
2 Similarly, is it reasonable to expect a joyful reunion with loved ones in the afterlife?
One could have a "joyful reunion with loved ones in the afterlife" and we should include a joyful religious experience for those who have learned to meditate deeply.
3 Would it be reasonable to say we have many “forgotten friends” from prior lives? Are we able to remember these and reunite with them?
It depends upon one's level of awareness. Since most people do not meditate deeply, then the afterlife is just a dream for most.
4 In regard to the pre-birth state, I’ve read we often have a draft of a “life plan” before reincarnating. Have you encountered this?
[/quote]
I could see that one could have a "life-plan" upon birth, reviewed like seeing one's life pass before one as one dies.
-
While I have been traveling Out-of-Body most of my life, and I had numerous NDEs in the first 4 months after my COPD diagnosis I cannot say I had any experience that would provide information for a “spiritual cleansing” after death. What I have observed is most people who are dead don't know that they are dead, and reincarnate quickly afterwards due to craving and covetousness for the material world.
Interesting so when you say they “don’t know they are dead” do you mean that in the literal sense (ie they are delusional), or do you mean they experience death like a dream—-ie they lack self-awareness in the post-death state?
-
Interesting so when you say they “don’t know they are dead” do you mean that in the literal sense (ie they are delusional), or do you mean they experience death like a dream—-ie they lack self-awareness in the post-death state?
In my experience of encountering people while Out-of-Body most of these people do not know that they are dead and persist in a dream-like domain.
-
That sounds dreadful. So most people don’t have much of an afterlife at all?
-
That sounds dreadful. So most people don’t have much of an afterlife at all?
Correct, when people do not learn to meditate deeply they never develop lucidity at depth, so death for them is not unlike their dream state, which for them will be fogy, with little self-awareness.
-
That’s awful. It reminds me of Greek or Jewish religion, where the afterlife is that of gloomy shades. Is it possible to assist these souls? Or are they unreachable?
-
That’s awful. It reminds me of Greek or Jewish religion, where the afterlife is that of gloomy shades. Is it possible to assist these souls? Or are they unreachable?
This is a good question. Basically there is not much that can be done for them, other than to inspire people to take up a fruitful contemplative life when in a physical body.
-
This is a good question. Basically there is not much that can be done for them, other than to inspire people to take up a fruitful contemplative life when in a physical body.
Got it. Well, it’s an interesting universe. I remember when I was a teenager learning the different possibilities: is it a nihilistic universe (no souls)? Is it one life like the Christians and Muslims say? Or is it reincarnation, etc? I remember when I first learned the Buddhist cosmology, I thought it was so positive, that we can return as a ghost, deva, etc. So, it sounds like it is something in between: that there is a continuity, but without self-awareness in the sleep state we have no control. And, it seems what humanity focuses in on in our spiritual work is incorrect: that it is not “being a good person,” for instance, like the Christians say, that is important, but, rather, our level of meditative attainment. And, the philosophical problem of reincarnation is really not pursued at all (except in India).
I have a few more questions for you:
1 What exactly, Jeff, *is* a dream? Is it actually a spiritual projection, but in an unconscious way?
2 A bigger question—what do you make of the four stages of enlightenment? I just checked now and the Buddha does teach them himself in the canon. (They weren’t a later addition.) They suggest there is a continuity of self based on nature (not meditation): ie, a streamwinner only incarnates seven more times, etc.
3 Have you inquired into the states of our spiritual friends—Sam and Stu—when OOB? Are they doing OK?
-
Got it. Well, it’s an interesting universe. I remember when I was a teenager learning the different possibilities: is it a nihilistic universe (no souls)? Is it one life like the Christians and Muslims say? Or is it reincarnation, etc? I remember when I first learned the Buddhist cosmology, I thought it was so positive, that we can return as a ghost, deva, etc. So, it sounds like it is something in between: that there is a continuity, but without self-awareness in the sleep state we have no control. And, it seems what humanity focuses in on in our spiritual work is incorrect: that it is not “being a good person,” for instance, like the Christians say, that is important, but, rather, our level of meditative attainment. And, the philosophical problem of reincarnation is really not pursued at all (except in India).
I have a few more questions for you:
I agree with most of this, but wholesome behavior is essential early Buddhism, as it is in early Christianity; and in both cases the wholesome states are referred to as "fruit."
1 What exactly, Jeff, *is* a dream? Is it actually a spiritual projection, but in an unconscious way?
In my experience when we travel Out-of-Body on the lowest levels then we encounter people who are either dead, or dreaming. So, people who are dreaming are often interacting with other people who are either alive but dreaming, or dead.
2 A bigger question—what do you make of the four stages of enlightenment? I just checked now and the Buddha does teach them himself in the canon. (They weren’t a later addition.) They suggest there is a continuity of self based on nature (not meditation): ie, a streamwinner only incarnates seven more times, etc.
We have discussed this here several times. There is a definite relationship between the four stages of enlightenment and the 8 stages of samadhi.
3 Have you inquired into the states of our spiritual friends—Sam and Stu—when OOB? Are they doing OK?
No, I have not checked out Stu and Sam while Out-of-Body, but I am sure they are both dead. These days when I travel Out-of-Body I don't have a destination. I just go wherever I am taken.
-
Got it. Thanks for dialoguing with me
Some more questions:
1 Is it possible to go backward in time when OOB? Forward?
2 Is there a multiverse? Or only one universe?
3 In Buddhism the Buddha initially didn’t want to teach, but only began his ministry after being asked to by a deva. Based on your experience we should read this as a real event, correct?
4 Have you found there is a continuity of personality traits across lifetimes?
5 Do you believe in fate or destiny? It would seem karma would require destiny but we often do not see its operation in the world.
6 OOB forums like to say we are learning and spiritually evolving over our many lifetimes. But it’s more like a prison-state we’re drawn into, correct?
-
Got it. Thanks for dialoguing with me
Some more questions:
1 Is it possible to go backward in time when OOB? Forward?
Yes, I have gone backwards in time many times to visit previous lifetimes, and even relive the entirety of some. The furthest that I have gone back in time I experienced at during my first 10-day meditation retreat in the winter of 1975 when I watched the faces of all of my previous lifetimes pass before my eye back to Neanderthal about 50,000 years ago. I have had no experience with moving forward in time.
2 Is there a multiverse? Or only one universe?
The multiverse hypothesis seems like a reasonable description of the astral plane, but I have no experience traveling to other physical universes, so I see no reason to believe in it.
3 In Buddhism the Buddha initially didn’t want to teach, but only began his ministry after being asked to by a deva. Based on your experience we should read this as a real event, correct?
This sounds like apocrypha. In the Pali Canon the day following Siddhartha's night of enlightenment he is said to have encountered several people to whom he said he was a 'Buddha.' They all said, "That's nice." Then hurried off. This makes more sense to me.
4 Have you found there is a continuity of personality traits across lifetimes?
Yes.
5 Do you believe in fate or destiny? It would seem karma would require destiny but we often do not see its operation in the world.
No
6 OOB forums like to say we are learning and spiritually evolving over our many lifetimes. But it’s more like a prison-state we’re drawn into, correct?
I find both hypotheses reasonable. It just depends upon which one you identity with.
-
Magnificent. Thanks
1 What should we make of aliens? I remember you said before we should view abduction stories as misunderstood OOBEs. Are aliens nonphysical beings? Or is it all illusion?
2 How should we interpret Christ? He doesn’t appear to be a contemplative in the Gospels. Do you think that he was? His teaching is magnificent (and we would all hope martyrdom leads to heaven), but it doesn’t seem to be the correct path if we should be focusing on meditation and astral projection.
3 Is there a geography to the spirit world? For example if you go to a certain place is it in a “fixed” location?
4 Are the sights in a place in the spirit world constant/consistent?
5 Are there sex heavens like the Buddha describes in the suttas?
6 Do you think the Dalai Lama is the return of the same individual? Or is it a delusion?
7 In your past lives did you observe an increasing holiness or mysticism with each one? Do you think you diminished the fetters prior to this life?
8 Is there a World of the Forms like in Plato’s teaching? Are there perfect “Ideas” in the spirit world that are the origins of physical objects?
-
Magnificent. Thanks
1 What should we make of aliens? I remember you said before we should view abduction stories as misunderstood OOBEs. Are aliens nonphysical beings? Or is it all illusion?
I had many encounters with space aliens in the first few years after I began nightly OOBEs. Eventually I came to realize that space aliens on the astral plane is like many aspects of the astral plane. It is mostly a delusional domain where like-minded beings participate in the delusion.
2 How should we interpret Christ? He doesn’t appear to be a contemplative in the Gospels. Do you think that he was? His teaching is magnificent (and we would all hope martyrdom leads to heaven), but it doesn’t seem to be the correct path if we should be focusing on meditation and astral projection.
To understand Jesus is to understand that the New Testament is mostly propaganda developed by a form of Christianity which appears to have developed in the 4th century. The first Naicean council was under Constantine I and he rejected they Jesus is God hypothesis and banished Athanacius who was the main proponent of Trinitarianism, and championed Arius, who was the main proponent of monotheistic Christianity which was a characteristic of Aryan Christianity.
3 Is there a geography to the spirit world? For example if you go to a certain place is it in a “fixed” location?
There are no fixed locations in the astral plane other than up. It is layered like an onion.
4 Are the sights in a place in the spirit world constant/consistent?
There are no constants in the astral plane. It is mostly a plane of infinite delusions projected by infinite beings.
5 Are there sex heavens like the Buddha describes in the suttas?
Yes, in the lower astral.
6 Do you think the Dalai Lama is the return of the same individual? Or is it a delusion?
When the Dalai Lama interprets the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path as "concentration" he proves he is nothing more than a clown in a constume.
7 In your past lives did you observe an increasing holiness or mysticism with each one? Do you think you diminished the fetters prior to this life?
For most of my previous lifetime I have returned for the benefit of others to keep alive the path of enlightenment through mysticism.
8 Is there a World of the Forms like in Plato’s teaching? Are there perfect “Ideas” in the spirit world that are the origins of physical objects?
Perhaps, if we consider the ideal forms originate in the upper realms of the astral.
-
Magnificent, thank you
-
Someone recently asked on a Buddhist forum, “what reincarnates if consciousness is not-self?” and I wanted to ask the same question.
-
Someone recently asked on a Buddhist forum, “what reincarnates if consciousness is not-self?” and I wanted to ask the same question.
In answering we have to start with understanding that Buddhism, like most religions, has been taken over by a pretentious and hypocritical priesthood who have hijacked the religion, and how we know that is none of them know what the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path is.
If we read the first sutta in the long discourse DN-1 we clearly see Siddhartha Gautama neither rejected nor accepted a concept of a self. Secondly even today psychiatry, psychology, neurology and cognitive "sciences" do not know what a self is, and we know this because they do not understand the 8 stages of depth in meditation, nor do they accept people have Near-Death-Experiences, or have Out-of-Body Experiences. So, to answer your question from the point of view of a dedicated contemplative who has traveled Out-of-Body every night for the last 50 years, is terminally ill and has had many Near-Death-Experiences, and has relived entire past lives; then what reincarnates fits the description of 'soul' or 'atman' as described by the major mystics. Whereas, the identity which most people have some awareness of is a combination of cognitive functions which are a product of neurology and experience plus 'soul'. When we leave the body we leave the idenetity.
-
Thanks that makes a lot more sense. It’s why I preferred Hinduism for many years over Buddhism. Since if there’s reincarnation, the one default would be a “consciousness” that returns birth after birth.
-
I don’t want to get too “out there” with my questions but what is the smallest being with a soul? I assume a mouse has one? What about insects? Cells in the body?
-
I don’t want to get too “out there” with my questions but what is the smallest being with a soul? I assume a mouse has one? What about insects? Cells in the body?
I haven't been interested in this, so I don't know, but I have recovered lifetimes as animals, including fish, so I don't see why tardigrades don't have souls.
-
Got it. So maybe the difference should be between alive but not self-aware (trees, cells) and alive and self-aware (small animals and larger).
What is “God”?
-
Got it. So maybe the difference should be between alive but not self-aware (trees, cells) and alive and self-aware (small animals and larger).
Animate verses inanimate life? I don't know
What is “God”?
Well, it depends upon how your define "god." If "god" for you is a benevolent creator god who created the heavens and earth 5,000 years ago, then I don't buy that at all. To me such a belief is seriously delusional. On the other hand if you are willing to consider that "god" is the source of love, and a pervasive consciousness throughout the universe, both physical and nonphysical, that is the god I have had experience with in the 8th stage of samma-samadhi.
-
So would you say "God" is an impersonal force? Is it a super-consciousness that includes every individual "I"? If there is this sublime, transcendent source of love -- should we conclude it's unable to alleviate the suffering and harshness of the physical universe?
-
Jhananda,
I like your approach to the idea of God. There has to be some sort of positive energy within the entire universe that encompasses love, interconnectedness, and intelligence beyond intellect. Otherwise, it would be impossible to awaken.
-
Jhananda,
I like your approach to the idea of God. There has to be some sort of positive energy within the entire universe that encompasses love, interconnectedness, and intelligence beyond intellect. Otherwise, it would be impossible to awaken.
Thank you, Tad
So would you say "God" is an impersonal force? Is it a super-consciousness that includes every individual "I"? If there is this sublime, transcendent source of love -- should we conclude it's unable to alleviate the suffering and harshness of the physical universe?
Yes, in my experience "god" is a super-consciousness that includes every individual "soul." Yes, in my experience it is the sublime, transcendent source of love which everyone is in search of, but only finds when they relinquish their craving for things and beings. Keep in mind the 4 Noble Truths. Suffering is an inherent characteristic of the material world. And, also keep in mind, there is not creator. The material world just exists.
-
Yes, in my experience "god" is a super-consciousness that includes every individual "soul." Yes, in my experience it is the sublime, transcendent source of love which everyone is in search of, but only finds when they relinquish their craving for things and beings. Keep in mind the 4 Noble Truths. Suffering is an inherent characteristic of the material world. And, also keep in mind, there is not creator. The material world just exists.
Got it!
1 Would it be appropriate to say “we’re all One” from that perspective? Given the suffering of existence, I suppose “we’re all One and immortal” would be too positive/optimistic a statement.
2 Can you unpack jhanas 5-8? Or are they all simply OOB states?
-
1 Would it be appropriate to say “we’re all One” from that perspective? Given the suffering of existence, I suppose “we’re all One and immortal” would be too positive/optimistic a statement.
I agree with both statements
2 Can you unpack jhanas 5-8? Or are they all simply OOB states?
I have already done so here and on the GWV website.
-
I agree with both statements
Ah, beautiful ☺️
Some additional questions:
1 Are ghosts around us?
2 At the same time, it seems stories of ghosts and poltergeists are false? By this point, we would have scientifically documented ghost experiences if they were possible
3 Is it possible for a deva to “keep up” with developments in the physical world?
4 Are the vibrations felt by meditators/OOBErs the sensation of the spirit?
-
Some additional questions:
1 Are ghosts around us
2 At the same time, it seems stories of ghosts and poltergeists are false? By this point, we would have scientifically documented ghost experiences if they were possible
While most of the stories of ghosts and poltergeists are false; nonetheless, In my experiences we persist in an ocean of spirit surrounded by spirit beings at all times.
3 Is it possible for a deva to “keep up” with developments in the physical world?
There is no reason to do so, other than "developments" in spiritual evolution, and they get that through direct contact through dreams, depth of meditation and the dead.
4 Are the vibrations felt by meditators/OOBErs the sensation of the spirit?
While in our experience here most people who claim to meditate never get anything out of it, because the people who are famous for promoting meditation don't know how to meditate; nonetheless, as the record shows here some people do indeed learn to meditate skillfully and indeed have genuine spiritual experiences during meditation as demonstrated by the experiences reported here.
-
Thank you 🙏. It’s all very cogent and internally consistent.
To unpack a couple confused points:
1 Do you know anything more about the historical “Shiva”? “Kali”? It being Gilgamesh would be a little far for accounts of him to reach India, no?
2 Any news learned about the “lost female prophet” who was of the same caliber as Christ?
3 Would it be appropriate to speculate Christ may have been more of a contemplative than exists in the tradition — and our understanding of him was distorted by later writers and interpreters (for example, Constantine)?
4 To help inspire those who want to emulate you, can you describe your default state? Would you say you hear the inner sound (tinnitus) very loudly, constantly? Are you saturated with bliss and vibrations even when not meditating? And — these nimitta are a product of a daily intense practice, say 5 hours of meditation a day?
-
Thank you 🙏. It’s all very cogent and internally consistent.
To unpack a couple confused points:
1 Do you know anything more about the historical “Shiva”? “Kali”? It being Gilgamesh would be a little far for accounts of him to reach India, no?
When I examine the iconography of Shiva verses Gilgamesh I see remarkable similarities, most notably a muscular man wearing a tiger's skin and carrying a pitchfork is just too similar. Secondly the art forms related to these two mythical men arise on either side of the Himalyan mountains, and while the distances seem difficult to justify; nonetheless, when we consider that the term 'Aryan' appears in the literature of both Mesopotamia and Hinduism, then I have sufficient compelling evidence to link the two together. We should also consider that these two figures are the earliest mythical figures in both cultures.
2 Any news learned about the “lost female prophet” who was of the same caliber as Christ?
I'm not sure whom you refer to.
3 Would it be appropriate to speculate Christ may have been more of a contemplative than exists in the tradition — and our understanding of him was distorted by later writers and interpreters (for example, Constantine)?
What western Christianity has been propagating regarding Jesus is mostly myth, and comes after the first Naicein counsel where trinitarianism was rejected. It is my hypothesis if Jesus existed at all, and I find there is sufficient compelling evidence that he did, then he was most probably a contemplative who had found the fruit of the contemplative life.
4 To help inspire those who want to emulate you, can you describe your default state? Would you say you hear the inner sound (tinnitus) very loudly, constantly? Are you saturated with bliss and vibrations even when not meditating? And — these nimitta are a product of a daily intense practice, say 5 hours of meditation a day?
1) Yes, I hear the charismatic sound 24-7, which is not tinnitus, because tinnitus is due to neurological damage, not the practice of meditation. And, the evidence of this in part is the sound gets louder when I meditate, which is part of my default state.
2) my default state also includes keeping my mind in the present moment, which does require a daily meditation practice, and well as vigilance. It is not that I never think of the past or future, but I know when I do it invariably results in depression, anxiety, and other unwholesome thoughts, so when I notice it, then I return my awareness to the present moment. Doing so I keeps my mind upon pleasant thoughts.
3) To define further I define 'bliss' as a feeling of love, and yes I experience this most of the time as long as I keep my mind in the present moment. And, the vibrations are also ever present.
4) My daily meditation practice is less formal since my COPD diagnosis, in which I am most of the time on a respirator and often bedridden, but when I am, then most of the time I endeavor to keep my mind still and in the present moment, which by definition is not just formal meditation practice, but in one of the 4 jhanas. Otherwise prior to my chronic illness, and throughout most of the 50 years of my contemplative life I began and ended everyday with a formal meditation session which was typically an hour long, and tended to result in one of the 4 jhanas. I also tended to practice for about an hour in the middle of the day for about an hour if I could fit it in.
-
Thank you. Very detailed and excellent responses.
Did you ever inquire into your “past lives,” trying to find a record of their names, etc, to confirm they were real?
-
Thank you. Very detailed and excellent responses.
Did you ever inquire into your “past lives,” trying to find a record of their names, etc, to confirm they were real?
I've thought of it, but I have been too occupied with more important issues. Also, most people are obscure in history, so the likelihood of finding a record for my past lifetimes becomes more difficult the farther back in time we go.
-
I've thought of it, but I have been too occupied with more important issues. Also, most people are obscure in history, so the likelihood of finding a record for my past lifetimes becomes more difficult the farther back in time we go.
Yes I was thinking about the German lifetime, I wonder if you could identify the name or surname of it.
-
Yes, I thought the German WWII lifetime might be the easiest to track down. No, in my experience the OOBE is non-verbal. Instead the details of a German civil engineer during WWII, graduate of a German university, who had a PhD and was an expert in the bridges of the region, who was found to be aiding the resistance, and was sent to a concentration camp, might be searchable.
-
What do you think about the god-like being of light that quite many people encounter during OOB in NDEs? The interesting thing is that that being of light seems to have power over where people can be reborn and can interact with people with no words. Is it Maha Brahma or Christian God or what? Also Yogananda said that God is not personal but can take personal forms if needed.
-
What do you think about the god-like being of light that quite many people encounter during OOB in NDEs? The interesting thing is that that being of light seems to have power over where people can be reborn and can interact with people with no words. Is it Maha Brahma or Christian God or what? Also Yogananda said that God is not personal but can take personal forms if needed.
This is actually a complex question, which requires a complex answer, which is likely to take some dialog. So, since you mentioned Yogananda, then I will begin with Yogananda's concept of Babaji, which refers to an eternally youthful and eternally living physical being who is also divine. Its origins are with his teachers Yuktaswar et al. Their belief has its origins in a much more ancient Indic cultural belief around Shiva, who has the same traits.
The experience of the Babaji figure in the Self Realization Fellowship (SRF) of Yogananda is most often expressed as an experience that some of them have in deep meditation. The experience is generally expressed as, while feeling very deep in meditation, one will see before one an individual, typically in silhouette. I have had this experience many, many times in the 50 years of my daily meditation practice. It consistently occurs for me as the 4th stage of samadhi (4th jhana) is about to give way to the 5th stage of samadhi, which we have discussed here many times is the first stage of the Out-of-Body experience (OOBE). And, I have found I see this silhouette when I have drifted OOBE just a little bit to the point that my astral body is actually looking back at my physical body.
-
Jhananda,
thanks for response. It is quite an interesting topic. I have read some teachings by Yogi mystics but never studied them in depth. I guess they tend to interpret experiences of universe more personally and organically than Buddhist counterparts. I wonder if it is possible to accurately correlate Yogi samadhis to Pali jhanas or if there some differences.
-
Jhananda,
thanks for response. It is quite an interesting topic. I have read some teachings by Yogi mystics but never studied them in depth. I guess they tend to interpret experiences of universe more personally and organically than Buddhist counterparts. I wonder if it is possible to accurately correlate Yogi samadhis to Pali jhanas or if there some differences.
One should always keep in mind that what passes for religion in most religions is an elaborate fraud to support a pretentious and hypocritical priesthood, so any differences are most likely evidence of fraud. Otherwise the 8 stages of religious experience are the same world around, but too few ever experience them. My goal is to provide a description of the religious experience that goes beyond religious differences.
-
Jhananda,
thanks for response. It is quite an interesting topic. I have read some teachings by Yogi mystics but never studied them in depth. I guess they tend to interpret experiences of universe more personally and organically than Buddhist counterparts. I wonder if it is possible to accurately correlate Yogi samadhis to Pali jhanas or if there some differences.
One should always keep in mind that what passes for religion in most religions is an elaborate fraud to support a pretentious and hypocritical priesthood, so any differences are most likely evidence of fraud. Otherwise the 8 stages of religious experience are the same world around, but too few ever experience them. My goal is to provide a description of the religious experience that goes beyond religious differences.
Well, Hindus/Yogis like to teach that Atman is the ultimate goal. But traditional Buddhist swear on their lifes that there is no such thing or reality that can be considered Atman. Consequently, the following deductions come to my mind:
- the difference is in the interpreting the same experience
- Atman or Nirvana are not the same level attainments and one of then is higher
- corruptions in teachings by students of original founders of the spiritual traditions
-
One should always keep in mind that what passes for religion in most religions is an elaborate fraud to support a pretentious and hypocritical priesthood, so any differences are most likely evidence of fraud. Otherwise the 8 stages of religious experience are the same world around, but too few ever experience them. My goal is to provide a description of the religious experience that goes beyond religious differences.
Well, Hindus/Yogis like to teach that Atman is the ultimate goal. But traditional Buddhist swear on their lifes that there is no such thing or reality that can be considered Atman. Consequently, the following deductions come to my mind:
- the difference is in the interpreting the same experience
- Atman or Nirvana are not the same level attainments and one of then is higher
- corruptions in teachings by students of original founders of the spiritual traditions
I'll go with your third conclusion, because we have yet to find a Buddhist monk who knows what jhana is in the last 1500 years. All religions have the same problem. Any clown can put a costume on and pretend to be something that they are not.
-
Jhananda,
I guess that is quite likely considering the fact that all religions start competing with others as they become organized. Then the religious leaders kind of have to come up with some doctrinal teachings that their path leads to higher goals than everyone else...
Regarsing monks, I think there are forest monks who practice deep meditation including develiping certain psychich powers. But since city monks are in charge of the overall religion, forest monks tend to stay underground.
-
Jhananda,
I guess that is quite likely considering the fact that all religions start competing with others as they become organized. Then the religious leaders kind of have to come up with some doctrinal teachings that their path leads to higher goals than everyone else...
When we examine religion and civilization we see the two are closely associated. Both religion and civilization are expressed in art, architecture and literature. Then we have to ask, who has the wealth to build religious institutions, build civil structures, and fund scriptoriums for the reproduction of religious literature? The answer is one and the same. The ruling class has the wealth and power and motivation to build religions, institutions and literature that back them. When we examine the leaders of religion, who do we find in charge? In most cases they are members of the ruling class.
Regarsing monks, I think there are forest monks who practice deep meditation including develiping certain psychich powers. But since city monks are in charge of the overall religion, forest monks tend to stay underground.
Regarding your hypothesis that forest monks get realization. Do we see that they have supported or contributed to a dialog on jhana and the other topics that we discuss here. While there are a few that we have quoted here; nonetheless, in most cases we have had to correct their erroneous assumptions, such as Ajan Brahm claiming the first jhana is a manifestation of a glowing sphere, which he calls a 'kasina.' Whereas, the suttas do not describe this phenomena at all. So, my conclusion is all branches of Buddhism are hopelessly corrupt as is all other religions.
-
Jhananda,
Yes, there are many bad examples like you mentioned. But there are also good example, it is just hard to find them. I posted an article in Ecstatic Buddhism section of this forum of a monk that I believe is a real mystic.
-
Thank you, I agree, but in my experience the people who learn to meditate skillfully in any religion tend to be marginalized. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross come to mind.